Argentina claims the Falklands again.

[stormthebeaches]

Argentina is claiming that British plans to drill oil from the Falklands is against international law and they have got all of Latin America to support them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8531052.stm


Summit backs Argentine claim to Falkland Islands
Group photograph from Cancun 22 February 2010
Latin American and Caribbean leaders give unanimous support to Argentina

Latin American and Caribbean leaders at a summit in Mexico have unanimously backed Argentina in its new row with the UK over the Falkland Islands.

Leaders of all 32 countries supported Argentine claims to the islands and condemned oil drilling operations that are already under way.

The row erupted after a UK firm began drilling for oil off the Falkland Islands and Argentina objected.

Buenos Aires has ruled out military action and is pursuing talks at the UN.


What is the geographic, the political or economic explanation for England to be in Las Malvinas? Could it be because England is a permanent member of the UN's Security Council where they can do everything and the others nothing?
Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva

New US-free Americas bloc planned

In a statement, the leaders reaffirmed "backing for Argentina's legitimate rights in its sovereignty dispute with the United Kingdom relating to the 'Malvinas Question'".

The statement also urged the two governments to "renew negotiations in order to find in the shortest time possible a just, peaceful and definitive solution to the dispute".

Meanwhile Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva called on the UN to debate Argentina's sovereignty claim.

"What is the geographic, the political or economic explanation for England [sic] to be in Las Malvinas?" he asked.

"Could it be because England is a permanent member of the UN's Security Council [where] they can do everything and the others nothing?"

Drilling operation

Argentine Foreign Minister Jorge Taiana is due to meet UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on Wednesday.


ANALYSIS
Andy Gallacher, BBC News, Cancun


For the Argentine government the Cancun summit has been a huge success.

They have received unanimous backing condemning Britain's oil drilling activities in the Falkland Islands and backing its claims of sovereignty over the long disputed archipelago.

Leaders from 32 nations spanning Latin America and the Caribbean backed what is becoming an increasingly bitter dispute between the British and Argentine governments.

Backing on this scale by so many nations is now bound to give the Argentines renewed fervour in their claims and calls for the British government to negotiate sovereignty.

Argentina and Britain went to war over the South Atlantic islands, which Argentina calls the Malvinas, in 1982, after Buenos Aires invaded them.

UK forces wrested back control of the territory, held by Britain since 1833, during a seven-week war that killed 649 Argentine and 255 British service personnel.

The British-contracted rig Ocean Guardian began drilling 100km (62 miles) north of the Falklands on Monday.

The drilling operation in the disputed waters off the Falkland Islands could yield millions of barrels of oil and the British government says it will take all necessary measures to protect the archipelago.

But Buenos Aires has ruled out military action and is trying to pressure Britain into negotiations on sovereignty.

The Argentine foreign minister is due to meet with the UN Secretary General in New York as they continue their diplomatic offensive.

Also at the two-day summit of the Rio Group and the Caribbean Community (Caricom) in Mexico, leaders agreed to set up a new regional body without the US and Canada.

The new bloc would be an alternative to the Organisation of American States (OAS), the main forum for regional affairs in the past 50 years.
Falkland Islands map

[Liberty]

Good to know people are using diplomacy now instead of just brute force anyway...

[[R_H]]

Good to know people are using diplomacy now instead of just brute force anyway...

Brute force isn't an option for the Argentinians. Their military is in shambles, any attempt to retake the islands by force would likely result in a bigger ass-whooping than in 1982.

[Psychic_Sandwich]

Brute force isn't an option for the Argentinians. Their military is in shambles, any attempt to retake the islands by force would likely result in a bigger ass-whooping than in 1982.

Aye. Quite apart from the fact that, if a T45 were hypothetically deployed to the Islands, if could probably shoot down the entire Argentinian airforce on it's own, this isn't the Cold War anymore. Britain is a major US ally and has gone out of it's way to help the US when it didn't have to, and there's no USSR for the US to keep out of South America. What has Argentina done for the US recently?

Even if Britain wasn't capable of giving the Argies a damn good thrashing if they had another go, we'd pretty likely get US help if we asked.

[Highlord Laan]

Their trade bloc can bitch, moan and scream all they want. It's British territory, and they can do as they please.

[Siege]

There was a thread on this subject a few weeks ago, it can be found here. Apparently the Argentinians now have come to the same conclusion that was the consensus there; they can't get the place back militarily, so they're left to bitch to the UN. Where, as the article already pointed out, the UK has a veto in the only body that actually matters in this sort of affair. Yeah, I wish the Argentinians good luck with their grievances.

[Zed Snardbody]

If Argentina is up to this now, how long before Spain jumps in on the UK pity party.

[SapphireFox]

If this group of 32 countries got together would they have the strength to take the falklands? And if they did would they be able to keep them? What kind of military strength does this group have ?

[Teleros]

If Argentina is up to this now, how long before Spain jumps in on the UK pity party.

Any minute I expect. Even though Gibraltar's been British for longer than it's been Spanish .

If this group of 32 countries got together would they have the strength to take the falklands? And if they did would they be able to keep them? What kind of military strength does this group have ?

Mmm, I can just see Venezuela and Colombia getting on well together over this. Just imagine the wrangling that'd ensue over who got what share of the oil etc.

As to whether they'd have the strength... probably, unless we went running to the USA and got them to intervene. I doubt the EU navies (what navies?) would help us much, and Spain would only see it as a chance to use it as a bargaining chip re Gibraltar.

[Themightytom]

If this group of 32 countries got together would they have the strength to take the falklands? And if they did would they be able to keep them? What kind of military strength does this group have ?

Mmm, I can just see Venezuela and Colombia getting on well together over this. Just imagine the wrangling that'd ensue over who got what share of the oil etc.

As to whether they'd have the strength... probably, unless we went running to the USA and got them to intervene. I doubt the EU navies (what navies?) would help us much, and Spain would only see it as a chance to use it as a bargaining chip re Gibraltar.

woah woah woah we can't take on Venezuela they run our fuel assistance programs for the poor. that would be just unpopular...

Well maybe if we do it in the summer, we can get cheap oil from the Falklands.
OR manufacture a pretense to occupy Venezuela directly, sweet mother of Liberty why are we F'ing around in the middle east this is so much more convenient!

[SapphireFox]

Did a bit of digging on strengths

Argentina:http://www.globalfirepower.com/country- ... =Argentina
PERSONNEL
Total Population: 40,482,000 [2008]
Population Available: 19,918,490 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 16,718,928 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 681,254 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 71,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 0 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 47,240 [2008]

ARMY


NAVY
Total Navy Ships: 39
Merchant Marine Strength: 46 [2008]
Major Ports and Harbors: 7
Aircraft Carriers: 0 [2008]
Destroyers: 1 [2008]
Submarines: 3 [2008]
Frigates: 10 [2008]
Patrol & Coastal Craft: 9 [2008]
Mine Warfare Craft: 2 [2008]
Amphibious Craft: 0 [2008]

AIR FORCE
Total Aircraft: 632 [2003]
Helicopters: 156 [2003]
Serviceable Airports: 1,272 [2007]

UK:http://www.globalfirepower.com/country- ... ed-Kingdom
PERSONNEL
Total Population: 60,943,912 [2008]
Population Available: 28,855,100 [2008]
Fit for Military Service: 23,738,184 [2008]
Reaching Military Age Annually: 784,520 [2008]
Active Military Personnel: 195,000 [2008]
Active Military Reserve: 233,860 [2008]
Active Paramilitary Units: 0 [2008]

ARMY
Total Land-Based Weapons: 5,121
Towed Artillery: 455 [2001]


NAVY
Total Navy Ships: 139
Merchant Marine Strength: 518 [2008]
Major Ports and Harbors: 10
Aircraft Carriers: 2 [2008]
Destroyers: 11 [2008]
Submarines: 17 [2008]
Frigates: 21 [2008]
Patrol & Coastal Craft: 9 [2008]
Mine Warfare Craft: 18 [2008]
Amphibious Craft: 13 [2008]

AIR FORCE
Total Aircraft: 1,891 [2003]
Helicopters: 779 [2003]
Serviceable Airports: 449 [2007]

I wasant able to find any info on columbia on this site but I think few of us might be able to come up with other useful material.

[SapphireFox]

wiki had this to say on columbias navy
Ships
A majority of the Colombian Navy ships are gunboats used for patrolling the country's rivers and coastlines.

Frigates (FFG)

ARC Almirante Padilla (FM-51)Almirante Padilla class
ARC Almirante Padilla (FM-51)
ARC Caldas (FM-52)
ARC Antioquia (FM-53)
ARC Independiente (FM-54)

Submarines (SSK)

ARC Pijao (S-28)Type 209/1200
ARC Pijao (S-28)
ARC Tayrona (S-29)
Type SX-506
ARC Intrépido (S-21)
ARC Indomable (S-22)

[CaptainChewbacca]

The funny thing is, if Argentina HADN'T invaded in 1982 then there's a good chance Britain would have sold or simply relinqueshed the islands to Argentina. Now its a national pride thing.

[Captain Seafort]

Now its a national pride thing.

That and the fact that they're a going concern these days even without the oil (there's a huge fishing industry around the islands), although how much that's a chicken-and-the-egg scenario I'm not sure

[Guardsman Bass]

The funny thing is, if Argentina HADN'T invaded in 1982 then there's a good chance Britain would have sold or simply relinqueshed the islands to Argentina. Now its a national pride thing.

If I remember right, the British were trying to find a way to get rid of without leaving the inhabitants (who consider themselves British) stuck in Argentina without any say in the matter, like buying them out or the like.

That said, it's kind of irritating that the Argentine claim is actually taken seriously outside of Argentina. The islands have been British for, what, 177 years? That's longer than the American southwest has been part of the US, and you don't see Mexico bitching about it at the UN every year.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I almost hesitate to suggest it, even flippantly, but...


Why not make it a fight of sport? Both England and Argentina are hugely crazy about football, right?

Draft up a treaty requiring the loser to relinquish the islands (or all claim to the islands) to the winner; enforced by the UN vowing to come down heavy-handed with trade embargos and sanctions on the loser if the renege. Poke an international body with no members either UKian (or any country nominally headed by the Queen) or Argentine into refereeing the match (or better; series of matches,) and maybe the IOC could be prodded into regulating the whole affair.

Hold the games on the Falkland Islands themselves, and for best effect sell tickets and make it pay-per-view...

Actually, you could take it one step further and make it a recurring sporting event; if you have a significant number of matches playing out every play peroid, you could divvy up the proceeds (of the oil; the take from the games gets split 50/50) according to the percentage of matches won, with a fixed amount going to both the UK and Argentina based on how much each contributed to the oil prospecting - IE, say, if 20% is the fixed amount and the UK fronts 75% of the up-front and maintenance costs and Argentina fronts the other 25%, the UK gets a fixed 15% of the total no matter how badly they do, and Argentina gets 5% even if they get completely curb-stomped...


I know, it's a silly idea, but it seems about as silly as this tin-pot pollitical maneouvering, and at least it has the potential to bring profit to both countries. Having another war would be stupid - the Argentines aren't crazy enough to try - they know damn well that their entire military forces would most likely be rebuffed just taking the islands - to say the least it would be a phyrric victory even if it was a victory at all - and the UK isn't exactly going to launch any pre-emptive "we're stomping you to the ground so you remember what happens when you try to take our islands" violence.

[SapphireFox]

I almost hesitate to suggest it, even flippantly, but...


Why not make it a fight of sport? Both England and Argentina are hugely crazy about football, right?

Draft up a treaty requiring the loser to relinquish the islands (or all claim to the islands) to the winner; enforced by the UN vowing to come down heavy-handed with trade embargos and sanctions on the loser if the renege. Poke an international body with no members either UKian (or any country nominally headed by the Queen) or Argentine into refereeing the match (or better; series of matches,) and maybe the IOC could be prodded into regulating the whole affair.

Hold the games on the Falkland Islands themselves, and for best effect sell tickets and make it pay-per-view...

Actually, you could take it one step further and make it a recurring sporting event; if you have a significant number of matches playing out every play peroid, you could divvy up the proceeds (of the oil; the take from the games gets split 50/50) according to the percentage of matches won, with a fixed amount going to both the UK and Argentina based on how much each contributed to the oil prospecting - IE, say, if 20% is the fixed amount and the UK fronts 75% of the up-front and maintenance costs and Argentina fronts the other 25%, the UK gets a fixed 15% of the total no matter how badly they do, and Argentina gets 5% even if they get completely curb-stomped...


I know, it's a silly idea, but it seems about as silly as this tin-pot pollitical maneouvering, and at least it has the potential to bring profit to both countries. Having another war would be stupid - the Argentines aren't crazy enough to try - they know damn well that their entire military forces would most likely be rebuffed just taking the islands - to say the least it would be a phyrric victory even if it was a victory at all - and the UK isn't exactly going to launch any pre-emptive "we're stomping you to the ground so you remember what happens when you try to take our islands" violence.

Silly perhapse, but very very entertaining and best of all no one has to die,

[ShadowDragon8685]

If you make it a recurring thing, then it actually becomes an ongoing disincentive to resort to military force: a war would destroy or damage not only the infrastructure of the oil, but also of the sport. If the sport itself is turning a profit, then it becomes, in and of itself, a worthwhile venture to maintain - keep both countries tense, but make it a war not of "let's go kill all those damn Britons squatting our island" but one of "Let's go to the Falklands and kick their balls and take a clean sweep this year!"

Basically, the idea is to channel all the jingoiostic competitiveness into the battle on the pitch instead of having one off it. The only worry is that the riots might be the thing of legend - and quite possibly more bloody and vicious than having an actual war over the islands.

It would be silly. As a practical soloution, I've no idea if it could remotely work or not; it would involve both sides honoring their part of the bargain, even if they colossally fuck-up the sporting event. Moreover, it would involve both sides trusting the other to honor their side of the bargain - and I'm sure malfeasance would sour the deal faster than a lightning strike.

If anybody could pull it off, though, I think the UK and Argentina could. Both countries are nuts for football, both countries have a vested desire for the islands, but neither is willing to commit to violence in the current pollitical climate, and at least the British have an inkling about how not to take themselves too seriously.

[Chris OFarrell]

I would think the people living on the islands would take a very dim view of you treating their hard and long fought for rights as UK Citizens living on UK lands as a form of mild entertainment...

[Psychic_Sandwich]

Why not make it a fight of sport? Both England and Argentina are hugely crazy about football, right?

Draft up a treaty requiring the loser to relinquish the islands (or all claim to the islands) to the winner; enforced by the UN vowing to come down heavy-handed with trade embargos and sanctions on the loser if the renege. Poke an international body with no members either UKian (or any country nominally headed by the Queen) or Argentine into refereeing the match (or better; series of matches,) and maybe the IOC could be prodded into regulating the whole affair.

Hold the games on the Falkland Islands themselves, and for best effect sell tickets and make it pay-per-view...

Actually, you could take it one step further and make it a recurring sporting event; if you have a significant number of matches playing out every play peroid, you could divvy up the proceeds (of the oil; the take from the games gets split 50/50) according to the percentage of matches won, with a fixed amount going to both the UK and Argentina based on how much each contributed to the oil prospecting - IE, say, if 20% is the fixed amount and the UK fronts 75% of the up-front and maintenance costs and Argentina fronts the other 25%, the UK gets a fixed 15% of the total no matter how badly they do, and Argentina gets 5% even if they get completely curb-stomped...


I know, it's a silly idea, but it seems about as silly as this tin-pot pollitical maneouvering, and at least it has the potential to bring profit to both countries. Having another war would be stupid - the Argentines aren't crazy enough to try - they know damn well that their entire military forces would most likely be rebuffed just taking the islands - to say the least it would be a phyrric victory even if it was a victory at all - and the UK isn't exactly going to launch any pre-emptive "we're stomping you to the ground so you remember what happens when you try to take our islands" violence.

Why discuss the matter at all, unless there's an indication Argentina is going to do something stupid? The Islanders are British, and wish to remain British, there's a firm British military presence on the Islands, and Argentina can do nothing about it. If the Islanders wanted to become part of Argentina, then it'd be a different story, but as it is, ceding the Falklands to Argentina would be like France ceding Normandy to England because of 'historical claims,' despite the fact that the population wishes to remain French. Diplomacy is pretty useless when one side effectively has no give in their position, even if they wanted to be able to compromise.

[Stuart Mackey]

I know, it's a silly idea, but it seems about as silly as this tin-pot pollitical maneouvering, and at least it has the potential to bring profit to both countries. Having another war would be stupid - the Argentines aren't crazy enough to try - they know damn well that their entire military forces would most likely be rebuffed just taking the islands - to say the least it would be a phyrric victory even if it was a victory at all - and the UK isn't exactly going to launch any pre-emptive "we're stomping you to the ground so you remember what happens when you try to take our islands" violence.

The fate of the Islands is and will be determined on the basis of the self determination of the people who live there, you know, the idea enshrined in article 1 of the UN charter, a UN in which the UK holds a veto.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Even if the whole bunch of them got their military together, it won't do a damn thing. They don't even have the logistics to ship the fucking load of them, never mind the coordination.

[Stuart Mackey]

Even if the whole bunch of them got their military together, it won't do a damn thing. They don't even have the logistics to ship the fucking load of them, never mind the coordination.

The presence of a Brit SSN somewhere down there more or less trumps them at any serious attempt. They are reduced to rhetoric which is more or less just a distraction from Argentine economic problems, as usual.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I don't believe I suggested doing anything about the nationality of the islands themselves, I was speaking about the prime reason the Argentans are now, all these years later, starting a furrow again: the oil. Work out my deal with that, the Britons on the Falklands get to continue hapily hoisting Her Majesty's Union Jack over their homes, the oil gets distributed in a way that satisfies the jingioistic pride of both nations without starting another shooting war, and both states stand to turn a tidy sum over and above the oil simply on the ticket take from the regularly recurring Argentina Vs. UK Oil Games.

[Tanasinn]

The UK has no reason to kowtow to Argentina's desires, why would they?