Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Broomstick »

Simon_Jester wrote:
UnderAGreySky wrote:This is quickly bringing back memories of The Handmaid's Tale and in no good way.
I have never heard of that work, so far as I can recall. Should I be glad I haven't?
More or less. If you wish to get a plot summary go to this wiki and you'll know all that 's necessary without having to waste precious hours of your life reading the book.
You know, I cannot imagine any woman who actually believes this dreck being marriageable, because for practical purposes she'd have no damn brains. No intelligent anticipation, no ability to correct my mistakes or complement my weaknesses. Wouldn't it be like sharing a house with a self-propelled blowup doll*?

God. That's just... disturbing. I'd rather marry almost anyone than that kind of autolobotomist. [shudders]
That is because you have been raised to believe women are human beings just as much as men, and because you want a partner rather than a servant

Both men and women are conditioned by Fundy upbringings to think this shit is somehow normal and right. I certainly understand why it appeals to the men... the women, well, I guess they're just sufficiently beaten down and don't know any better. Those who do learn better, like our Liberty, frequently runs towards the mainstream given half a chance.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Simon_Jester »

Broomstick wrote:
You know, I cannot imagine any woman who actually believes this dreck being marriageable, because for practical purposes she'd have no damn brains. No intelligent anticipation, no ability to correct my mistakes or complement my weaknesses. Wouldn't it be like sharing a house with a self-propelled blowup doll*?

God. That's just... disturbing. I'd rather marry almost anyone than that kind of autolobotomist. [shudders]
That is because you have been raised to believe women are human beings just as much as men, and because you want a partner rather than a servant
Guess there are payoffs for growing up in an environment saturated by Third Wave feminism.

I still think it helps explain why the fundies are so afraid of the "threat" of gay marriage, though... it's that their model of how marriage ought to work has trouble competing with a partnership model even when the partnership is gay, and for straights :wink:

[I'm... call it 70% joking]
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Liberty »

Broomstick wrote:Both men and women are conditioned by Fundy upbringings to think this shit is somehow normal and right. I certainly understand why it appeals to the men... the women, well, I guess they're just sufficiently beaten down and don't know any better. Those who do learn better, like our Liberty, frequently runs towards the mainstream given half a chance.
Why do women believe such things? From experience, a couple reasons:
1. They are taught that it is God's will. When you're surrounded by religious nuts like that, you believe it, and if it's God's will, you want to do it.
2. It brings a sense of purpose. It makes being a housewife something special, a role chosen for you by God. It's more than just drudgery.
3. I think sometimes it becomes a sort of holy one-up-manship. I saw this with my friends. Our parents didn't tell us to always wear dresses, but I felt that if I did, I was somehow more godly than my friends who wore pants. And on and on.
4. It's often disguised under the idea of protecting women. This can make a girl feel special. As an example (from Vision Forum Ministries, which teaches essentially the same thing):

http://www.visionforumministries.org/is ... y_p_1.aspx
Protection of Daughters in Nineteenth Century America
The idea of an unprotected woman was virtually unknown 150 years ago. In nineteenth century Occidental culture, women simply did not travel alone because there was a cultural assumption that women needed protection. If women were traveling over land or sea, they were sure to have a male escort to see them safely to their destination.

We have no consciousness of this concept in our current day. If you travel by sea or land or by air, you will often see hundreds or even thousands of what would be previously regarded as “unprotected” women on the move. One hundred and fifty years ago, it was unthinkable, but today is the norm. This change it is important to note because it demonstrates that there are forces at work in every culture that either work to provide or withdraw the protection of women. In our current culture, we have many socially acceptable norms that promote the withdrawal of protection from daughters.

How do you think that those from the culture of the nineteenth century would judge us if they came in a time capsule and saw unprotected daughters traveling to the ends of the earth—women in co-ed dorms, women living independently in colleges across the nation, and women brandishing automatic weapons in combat situations.

I believe they would be dumbfounded at what we regard as normal.

Protecting My Own Daughter
In 2003, I took my daughter with me on a mission trip to Romania. On the plane, there was a drunken man flirting with her in a very aggressive way. Unfortunately for him, there were 535 pounds of manhood in our party ready to protect her. Believe me, we were exercising much Christian patience with this man who persisted throughout the entire flight. He did not realize that he was facing deadly force, if he persisted. He actually touched her once and was making bold advances. He even continued the pursuit after the plane landed. I am convinced that, if we had not been with her to protect her, she would have been in serious danger
Finally, Marie Griffith found that women in the Women's Aglow Fellowship charismatic group found submission empowering. Why? In part because it gave them something to do. Some of them were in bad family situations, with "unbelieving" husbands who beat them, gambled, or frequently got drunk. They had no practical skills and didn't see leaving as an option. So telling them to submit joyfully, cheerfully, to seek to be the kindest, sweetest wife possible, to love their husbands, etc, and that that might bring results - well, it gave these women something to do, something to try, a sense of purpose. And sometimes, it worked.

In my case, this entire mentality suddenly started working against me rather than for me. There I was in college, at a secular university, expected to obey my father in terms of who to date and what to believe. That's when I had to make a choice. Unfortunately, many of the women who grow up in families like this are not sent to college. In fact, both Vision Forum and the Pearls teach that girls should not go to college. After seeing what happened with me, my parents are considering not sending my younger sisters to college, per these teachings (I have sisters ages 14, 12, 10, 8, and 4). And that worries me.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Seraphina wrote:I object to two things:
-they give the molester a second chance which he does not deserve. Seriously, they demand that the wife doesnt tell on him if he confesses and repents.
-Giving rules when you are in a functional marriage is okay - but demanding that you literary stay with your husband no matter what?
Meet the christian doctrine of easy forgiveness * ! Repent, pray, worship Jesus and all is forgiven. No need to do any actual good deeds to atone for your sins, just as long as you feel sorry enough and give the church all your money. Six felonies? No problem, we'll only tell the authorities if you refuse to repent in the eyes of the church. As Jesus taught, so shall it be!

I'm all for giving people second chances, but yeah, christianity has always taken the idea of forgiveness way too far.

* only applies to believers, heathens must first convert to be forgiven in the eyes of the Lord.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Liberty Ferall wrote:After seeing what happened with me, my parents are considering not sending my younger sisters to college, per these teachings (I have sisters ages 14, 12, 10, 8, and 4). And that worries me.
How horrifying. It is one thing not to go to college because you cannot afford it, or because you find you're better suited to a trade school or going directly to the work force, but to be denied attending college because of your sex being seen as weaker and prone to corruption.

This is literally 19th century thinking. I hope your sisters escape more or less un-harmed.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Unfortunately, many of the women who grow up in families like this are not sent to college. In fact, both Vision Forum and the Pearls teach that girls should not go to college. After seeing what happened with me, my parents are considering not sending my younger sisters to college, per these teachings (I have sisters ages 14, 12, 10, 8, and 4). And that worries me.
The more I see about your family hon.... the more I have to retract my retraction that they are unbalanced. However it is not because of the homeschooling. It is because they are suffering from stockholm syndrome and parents who are abusing them with good intentions that nonetheless pave the road to hell.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Unfortunately, many of the women who grow up in families like this are not sent to college. In fact, both Vision Forum and the Pearls teach that girls should not go to college. After seeing what happened with me, my parents are considering not sending my younger sisters to college, per these teachings (I have sisters ages 14, 12, 10, 8, and 4). And that worries me.
The more I see about your family hon.... the more I have to retract my retraction that they are unbalanced. However it is not because of the homeschooling. It is because they are suffering from stockholm syndrome and parents who are abusing them with good intentions that nonetheless pave the road to hell.
Okay, I'll accept that. In the other thread, that was my main point. If my parents have problems, it's not because of homeschooling (as you seemed to be alluding), but rather because of the particular religious beliefs they hold. And, my parents have good intentions and they do love me and my siblings. Some people here seem to assume that anyone who practices such things must hate their children, but that is often not the case.

Oh, and I don't think you can call anyone but my close-in-age sister and my parents "unbalanced" as the younger ones haven't all grown up yet. I think you'd find my brothers (ages 20, 18, and 16) remarkably easy to get along with. Though it's weird, it sometimes seems like they go both ways. One moment my brother will tell me that he thinks my parents overreacted in my situation and should have handled things differently and the next moment he'll say he wants a wife who's quiet and won't give him a hard time. I guess I'm still waiting to see how things turn out, and hoping that maybe they'll be okay.

And in some areas, my parents' beliefs seem run-of-the-mill Christian while in others they are very extreme. This makes it odd, as people can meet my parents and get to know them a little bit without anything seeming out of place.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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See, the thing is, it's safer to send the boys to school because the Fundy/Pearl system overwhelming favors them when they grow up and finally get out of the house. The boys are destined to become paterfamilias and king. Even if the secular world holds attraction, that lure of a submissive and perfectly obedient servant/concubine is pretty strong, too. It's easy to talk yourself into being the master and believing the submissive slaves are that way because they want to be and not because it's been coerced that they show a happy face to their captors.

On the other hand, in order for that system to perpetrate itself, it is vital that the girls be "protected" from alternatives. The system demands that women accept that they will never have control, never have freedom. Expose them to the secular alternatives and you risk having them bolt. That would never do, because they you won't have enough "proper" wives for the boys.

This is why you sometimes see a pattern of the eldest daughter going to school but not subsequent ones, either from the parents denying funding or cracking down on the indoctrination.

Liberty, I think your parents are more extreme than you think they are, it's just that you don't have that much exposure to folks who are truly secular or truly not Christian. I don't think your people are evil, I do believe they have good intentions... I also think they are dead wrong on some things.

I found myself wondering today what would happen if I met your mother - would I spontaneously combust, would her head explode, or would both phenomena occur. Apologies in the advance for the dreadful mess I am certain would ensue....
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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I am sorry to say this, Liberty, but in my oppinion, people like your parents ARE evil - at least to a certain degree.

Why? Well, simply because i judge people by their actions and not their intentions. And their actions are essentially brainwashing. Particulary in the case of women with the goal of making them, essentially, slaves to their husbands without their own free will.

I am sure your parents are nice, decent, helpfull, friendly people (as long as you do not offend them, i guess).
But that does not change the fact that they tried to brainwash their children into slavery.

Your propably don't see them like that - but that's because they are your parents and you grew up in that enviorment.
What if we were talking about another religion brainwashing their children into polygamic marriages, or if they brainwash them into going to a monastery and becoming monks/nuns, totally isolated from the outside world?
In either of the three cases, the children might become happy - but they remove all choice and severely reduce the chance of them becoming happy.
In my book, that is evil.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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I'm not sure about evil but they are definitely abusive, even if their not beating the kids they did starve one and it's pretty clear that they are mentally and emotionally abusive.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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What exactly is 'abuse'? A lot of people are throwing the word around, and I'd like a definition. (And no, before anyone tries to jump up my ass, I'm not trying to weasel an argument in supporting this method of parenting.)
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Aaron »

Physical abuse; that ones obvious. Beatings, physical harm, etc. I'm not sure whether starving someone counts as physical or mental abuse though.

Mental abuse; things start to get grey here but setting your daughters up to be little more then servants for a husband, in my opinion is not healthy. I would expect some really funky disconnects in their minds after marriage to justify having no say in anything. Essentially what I'm getting at here is the destruction of self-esteem.

Emotional; lets drop that one, as I've never been to clear on what that entails.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Formless »

Intentional causing of suffering of someone socially close to you or in your care isn't a good enough definition? Or maybe you want the legal one, I'm sure someone can provide it. Either way, a lot of what has been described here probably fits.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Formless wrote:Intentional causing of suffering of someone socially close to you or in your care isn't a good enough definition?
That had been my original thought, but in black-and-white terms that doesn't seem to cut it. For example, when my daughter had a blocked nose, I used the little bulb-thingy to empty it of snot; that certainly caused her suffering (or at least she made it sound like it did), but that's obviously not abuse. On the other hand, beating your kids to where they die certainly seems to qualify. Where do things start to get gray?

Edit: There's obviously some sort of consensus here. Maybe I'll start a thread in SLAM -- my questions are fourfold: "What's the definition?", "Where's the gray zone?", "Can the definition be justified from moral principles?", and "How does that apply to this particular situation?" (It's for the last one that I posted the question here.)
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by aieeegrunt »

Jesus Christ this is page after page of absolute insanity. I tried to read the link that went to the excerpts from created To Be His Help Meet and had to stop because it was starting to make me feel physically ill. I always thought that was hyperbole when people said that, but I now eat my words I guess.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Bilbo wrote:I know this is more or less off-topic but I have this gleeful image of over the hill fundies, their mental faculties failing them as fast as their bodies, being beaten bloody by their grown children who have turned the table and now deem the parents to at least mentally be the disobedient child.

Its really not that hard to imagine.

Many elderly over 70 have enough problems that their actions can be as infuriating as the actions of a small child. Wouldnt the proper fundamental solution be to "school" them with the rod over and over again until their behavior is back in line with what is proper?
Abuse of the elderly is surprisingly prevalent in both institutional and home care environments. Perhaps 'payback' impulses are a contributing factor, and such would not necessarily be restricted to family members, or even consciously recognizable. Both the child abuse described in the OP and elder abuse appear to share the core feature of violating an 'expectation of trust' towards the abuser. Some people don't need a religious excuse to abuse children, either, so over the hill fundies wouldn't be the only group at risk.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by General Brock »

Just out of curiosity, do either Michael Pearl or Debi Pearl have a Jewish background? Its just speculation, but if he's a convert, that might explain the overzealousness a little. The pressure to conform and be the perfect Christian by some interpretation of fundamentalist standards might lead to problems.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Formless »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Emotional; lets drop that one, as I've never been to clear on what that entails.
That would be a subset of mental abuse, wouldn't it? Without ever laying a hand on someone you can cause significant stress and pain in a person's life by being threatening, making them fear you, make them feel sad or guilty over things that aren't their fault, embarrassing them socially or sexually, etc.. Many torture techniques used in Guantanamo were like that.
Surlethe wrote:That had been my original thought, but in black-and-white terms that doesn't seem to cut it. For example, when my daughter had a blocked nose, I used the little bulb-thingy to empty it of snot; that certainly caused her suffering (or at least she made it sound like it did), but that's obviously not abuse. On the other hand, beating your kids to where they die certainly seems to qualify. Where do things start to get gray?
You weren't doing anything which had an explicit purpose of causing pain or suffering, just using a medical tool which isn't particularly comfortable to have used on you. In the end, you were doing something that reduced her overall suffering by unblocking her stuffed up nose. On the other hand whipping, beating, and making someone think they are less than human through your words are techniques explicitly designed to cause them pain and grief, and not to accomplish a noble goal either-- breaking someone's spirit and bending them to your will. Liberty Ferall's posts have clearly established that that is their goal, and psychology shows that the promises of getting a well adjusted child out of it are bullshit as well. Ignorance of that fact should not be an excuse.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by General Brock »

In this case, the definition of 'abuse' that might apply, modified from the Action of Elder Abuse site:

'A single or repeated act or lack of appropriate action, occurring within any relationship where there is an expectation of trust, which causes harm or distress to [a person]'.
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"Is there a way to train children if you are prevented from Biblical application of the rod?" The Bible says, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him (Proverbs 22:15)."

I just hung up the phone after talking with a pastor concerning a new member in his church. This single mother had been hopelessly bound in drugs and immorality, living a life of sin and degradation. The state had removed the children from her home. For two years they were passed around from institution to temporary residence, to institution, and back again. This mother, forsaken by all but the predators who sought to consume the scared flesh that remained, was lost—alone, wasted, hopeless. "But God…(Eph. 2:4)." Then someone told her about the forgiveness that was purchased by the blood of Jesus. In a moment’s time, without the aid of religious ritual or practiced instruction, she was translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God’s dear son (Col. 1:13). It is called the New Birth and is the only door to heaven (John 3). The State quickly recognized that she was not the same person whose lifestyle had necessitated removal of her children. The children were sent home to their new mother. But when she sought to begin a new life with her children she found they were as inmates released from captivity, monsters of contention and rebellion. Children that start life in a government institution often end up in one.

The Pastor related the dilemma. He had given her our book, but when she attempted to implement the things she learned, she realized that she was setting herself up to lose the children back to the state. For when she spanked them they would scream, "Please don’t whip me." She is still on probation and must receive visits from social workers. If a child were to reveal that he was being spanked, the children would be immediately removed and placed back in a soulless institution. There they would not be bruised on the outside, but they would continue to rot from the inside.

So the pastor’s question was, "Is there a way to train children if you are prevented from Biblical application of the rod?" The Bible says, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him (Proverbs 22:15)."

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Proverbs 23:13-14)."

"The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame (Proverbs 29:15)."

This question has been asked in more than one way. It is a common situation. One parent absolutely stands against use of the rod, and so it could not be employed effectively. Can the other parent still train the children? If you are a foster parent you are forbidden from using the rod. Perhaps you are host to your grandchildren and not allowed to spank them. Maybe you are often in charge of the neighbor’s kids. Likewise, you are limited if you are a worker in a daycare or if you are a schoolteacher.

The question is, "If I am in a position where I cannot use the rod, am I already doomed to failure, or is there still hope? Can children be trained without use of the rod?" Absolutely. But they cannot be absolutely trained. Proper application of the rod is indispensable to communicating the divine principle of retributive justice, but any child, military man, employee, the neighbor’s kid, your dog, cat, or the birds in your yard can be trained through manipulating their relationship to their environment. Any creature that is self-motivated and has likes and dislikes can be trained if you are in a position to reward or deny any pleasure or need. Where humans are concerned you have the added tools of reason, moral persuasion, social persuasion, and conscience. Where it concerns those that are close to you, that is, they depend upon your fellowship for their mental satisfaction, you have the additional tools of persuasion and example.

If you are seeking to avoid the rod because you are an emotional coward or you are a product of contemporary philosophy, then not obeying God in this matter should not be considered an option. The Word of God teaches us the best method of child training, and proper use of the rod is a part of that program. Furthermore, if you abstain from use of the rod because you believe there is a better way, then you have revealed a fundamental flaw in your thinking that will leave a giant hole in any method you adopt. In other words, a person who understands the value and principle of the rod, but is somehow prevented from using it, will carry those valuable principles over into rodless training and so reap some of the benefits. Whereas the person that does not believe in use of the rod is so flawed in his understanding of human nature and life in general that no technique will be entirely effective for him.

So if circumstances beyond your control prevent you from doing as God commands, you are not without tools. There are still plenty of options available to you. You can do a relatively good job of training if you are consistent and recognize the nature of your limitations. You will have to lean more heavily on alternatives that tend toward accomplishing the same end.

Here is a single mother with chaotic children whom she must train without the assistance of the ultimate force—pain. She tells them to do something, and they immediately seek to do the opposite. She invites them to the table, and they tarry or declare that they are not hungry. Thirty minutes later they are demanding something sweet. When she refuses, they begin to cry and beg. When she tells them to stop, they scream. Then they start fighting between themselves. When she tries to interfere, they turn on her in violence. Their favorite word is "No" spoken with defiance. They will say "No" even when they would actually like to comply, just to express their autonomy.

Let’s take it further so as to be relevant to a larger audience. If she were to spank them, they would react by screaming and fighting her. They would pull away, try to grab the switch, scream "No," and go completely hysterical. She could not spank them until they yielded, unless she spanked them into physical exhaustion, which of course would be counterproductive. In short, in her attempt to build a relationship with them, at this early stage, spanking would not likely be profitable anyway. You may be thinking, "My children have always been in a secure environment and they act just like that."

The foremost need in child training, the ground on which all positive guidance occurs, is the relationship of child to parent. Her children are doubtlessly in an adversarial frame of mind. It is not just that they seek to put forward their own agenda, but that they actually seek to sabotage hers. It is vain to make her will clear, because they have already decided to resist all control. A rebel is not so concerned with doing his own thing as he is in not doing the will of another. He dedicates himself to publicly demonstrating that he is not in subjection to any authority. It is his agenda to rebel, to prove his independence and lack of respect.

Now we who are not emotionally involved are inclined to see the situation from the child’s point of view. The poor children have been emotionally deprived and abused. It is not their fault that they were jerked up and passed around like a piece of rental equipment. They are hostile because they have never known love and security. They have never had anyone they could trust to always be there. They are products of the adults surrounding them.

However, if we now handle them under our own shadow of guilt and sympathy they will be further ruined. If our understanding of their plight causes us to sympathize, we will only authenticate their hostilities. You must remember, children raised under the best of circumstances, in a home of love and security, are nonetheless inclined to selfish domination and independent action against the rule of law. If a child is "left to himself" he does not grow up beautiful, he grows up to be a little devil and will "bring his mother to shame (Prov. 29:15)." Her children are what they are because of neglect, but they are only being themselves. It is not a matter of just bad habits, it is now a case of bad character—yes, even at two years old.

But we are not going to blame the children, we are going to train them—however difficult, without the use of the rod. We may not achieve as high results, but if we are wise and consistent, others will brag on "what good kids" we have.

In our first book on child training, we talked about "tying strings." The first step in all child training, the foundation stone that must be continually renewed, is fellowship between parent and child. In 99% of all homes, children are in an adversarial state of mind most of the time. The first step, the step without which all other attempts are in vain, is to establish mutual ties of respect and honor. Unless the children can trust their parents with the handling of their souls they will not make themselves vulnerable. It is the same with you, is it not? Children must be brought to the place where they want to please their parents. Until children value the approval of their parents more than the lure of any indulgence there is not foundation for training. The parents will be constantly leaving their children behind.

Fear of punishment is not sufficient to make children compliant; it will certainly not remove the adversarial mentality. When parents get to the place where they are relying on threats alone, they have totally lost fellowship and are functioning as the IRS. Threats might get outward compliance but never the heart—quite the opposite.

So there is nothing that prevents this mother from taking the first step in child training—establish a relationship of trust and respect. How is this done? Enjoy the children and cause them to enjoy you. Don’t ask anything of them that is not absolutely necessary to the stability of the home, give them something they want—not selfish demands, just ignore those. Give them your time, your attention, your laugh, your approval, your touch, hugs, reading, silly funnies, rolling on the carpet or yard, pushing in the swing, or pulling in the wagon. But most of all, let them bask in your smile until they need it like they need the next breath. Cause them to feed on your fellowship, to relax until they are sure you care only for their good, that you live to enjoy their company and would not be happy without them. Do this and you will have achieved what most Christian homes are missing.

When you first begin to mend a broken relationship, or build one that never existed, you will have to do what friends do—ignore problem areas, absorb ugliness, for "they know not what they do." If they begin to trust you, and you strike at them, physically or verbally, they will withdraw, and it will take longer to draw them into the open again. You can stand firm on issues; just make sure that you are always relaxed and calm in your responses. If you have to reject an action, never communicate rejection of them as a person. The worse thing you can do in this attempt to rebuild the relationship is to develop critical feelings toward them and to become short and abusive in your language or attitude. They will shut you out like shutting the barn door on a winter storm. You can wipe out everything by having a condemning attitude.

Your reach as a disciplinarian cannot exceed the limits of your fellowship with the child. Rebuke must be delivered in an atmosphere of trust and respect. If you have lost the child’s heart, then the child will have lost the heart to please you. If the child is not in agreement to pull with you, it is vain to try to harness him to your rules. The occasional rebuke must be the exception to a constant sharing of positive experiences. When rebuke and chastisement are strung along on a thread of long silences, punctuated by beads of unpleasantries, it will only strangle the relationship, not beautify the child’s soul.

The other day my daughters took in a younger girl that was a product of the Federal School, a working mother, and an insensitive father—in that order. She was at that age just before puberty when it is easy to be misunderstood and confused. The child had been swept along in the sexless society of the federal system. She was not feminine or lovely in demeanor. My girls spent the day treating her as another "lady." Toward the end of the day when it was near time for her father to pick her up, they got her dressed in a long flowing dress. You could tell that at first it was an embarrassment to her to appear so vulnerable, so feminine, but she soon began to enjoy it. She started carrying herself differently. The affected gawkiness disappeared. She smiled with a blush and gracefully swept around the room. Soon her father came into the room. You could tell that she was pleased with herself and was expecting his approval. My daughters presented her to him as if she were a newly dressed bride, exclaiming how nice she looked in a dress. He blurted, "Yea, I been telling her she would look better in dresses. She just wears those old pants. The kids these days…." Her countenance fell and her shoulders hardened into the reserved condition she had displayed hours earlier. It was obvious to her that rather than her father being pleased with her, he was pleased with himself that she had justified what he "had been saying all along." On such small threads do our children hang. She had attempted to take a new course, one that could have made a great difference in her life, but his preoccupation with himself had shut the door in her face. He was not mean or cruel or angry—just insensitive, absorbed with his own performance, perhaps carrying latent irritation at having been ignored so long. He had a chance to join hearts with her, but he missed it.

Can you see that in such simple, day to day matters hangs all of child training. Until we tie strings of fellowship all else is vain, even harmful. If you would train your children and you are prevented from using the rod, you still have at your disposal a tool that most of my readers have never effectively employed—continuous fellowship with their child. If you can create an atmosphere of trust and good will, you will greatly reduce the need to spank the small child, and nearly eliminate the need in children 8 or older.

After you have established fellowship with your children, the next step in training is to gain their respect as a person of principle. Your children must know that you answer to, and act as representative of, a rule of law that is higher than your own personal preference. You have boundaries that you adhere to and expect them to do likewise. By reverencing boundaries in your own life you communicate that there is a Lawgiver higher than your own feelings and impulses. If the child is made to feel that he or she must obey you only because you are bigger or tougher, or because you have control of the resources, then your influence will extend only until they are big enough to rebel without severe consequences. But if the child treasures your fellowship and wants to please you, and on top of that the child wants to please the God that you please, then you have a solid foundation for training. The only battle left is the child’s flesh.

Many parents have found, all too late, that religious instruction given in the context of permissiveness works to produce atheists and infidels rather than Christians. I personally know many families that took their children to church and talked spirituality while indulging the flesh in food and pleasure and indulging the soul in irritability and pettiness, with the result that their children grew up to resemble sons and daughters of Baal rather than children of a holy God. Children dragged through that kind of confusion are far harder to reach with the truth of Christ than are the abused and abusing sons and daughters of prostitutes and dope peddlers. I know whereof I speak. Besides dealing with hundreds of such cases, some of my own relatives serve as the best examples.

So, on a foundation of fellowship and respect for God the lawgiver, you are ready to deal with that indomitable enemy of all the sons of Adam—the flesh. Even when your child wants to please you and wants to please God, he/she is going to feel the constant pull of the desires of the flesh. "The flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary the one to the other so that [your child] cannot do the things that he would." Here is where the mechanics of training are inaugurated. Your young child is composed of two opposing elements—elements that were in harmony before the fall of Adam—the flesh and the spirit. The spirit is that inner man, the soulish self. The flesh is that nonmaterial biological conglomerate of tissue, bone, and blood that is endowed with passion and drives.

The spirit can receive instruction and make decision based on values, whereas the flesh is indifferent to good and evil. Like any animal or plant, the flesh seeks survival and propagation. It battles within seeking to maintain a stability that promotes health, and it strives without seeking zones of comfort and pleasure. The body has no built in governor that predetermines moderation or sets limits. It would eat what tastes good, and it would eat it now. It would rest rather than work and take rather than give. The body cares not how it affects others or what might be the long-range consequences. The body neither knows nor cares that present actions will result in cavities, obesity, colon cancer, heart disease, or venereal disease; it just pursues the line of immediate pleasure. Where there is not an active, mature, trained, and disciplined mind exercising control, the body is a self-destructive fungus.

The bottom line you must recognize is that the infant is born with all of the passions of body but with no capacity for self-restraint. Your three-year-old has active bodily drives but no understanding or will to moderation and self-restraint. The child will be in his early to middle teens before he can function so as to be self motivated to the point of subjecting the body to the spirit. You can have a child with a submissive heart, but he cannot exercise his mind to self-restraint.

Herein is the parental responsibility: While your child is in the process of maturing, before he can govern himself, it is your responsibility to function as his spirit, as his governor. You will act as his conscience, his sensor, advisor, instructor, chastiser, rebuker. You will say no to his flesh when he cannot. You will be ever alert, vigilant, on guard to detect any uprising of flesh. You will strengthen his resolve to stand by the rule of law and deny the flesh. You will spot laziness and lead him in an attack against it. You will spot selfishness and see that it is not gratified. In short, you will never allow it to be a pleasing experience to indulge the flesh. He will be caused to find rest and peace in one path only—the path of holiness and self-discipline. Your job is to make all evil counterproductive and unrewarding and to make all righteousness and discipline to be delightful and joyous.

At this point the parent would have the rod as an enforcer against the monster of flesh. When the flesh runs away with the spirit and captivates the will, when the child turns on you like an angry dog and refuses to give ground, the rod can restore his respect for your authority. It is your final tool against the power of the body to commit mutiny and take the will captive.

But our subject is: "What can you do if you are denied that ultimate power to subdue the flesh?" You can fully apply all of the above measures so that you do not come to that place where the rod is necessary. Yet, we must face the obvious truth that no parent is going to create a net of training so tight that the kids don’t occasionally slip through. There will be times when a spanking is appropriate. But you are prevented! Then use your power as the caretaker and dispenser of all privileges and responsibilities to make his actions totally counterproductive. If you can’t spank the flesh, starve it with an embargo. Stand your ground and do not let the little fellow find satisfaction in his pursuits. Stay on duty, demanding obedience until he surrenders his will to your persistence. If there is a way to deny him access to some means of indulgence that relates to the offense, then by all means as governor of the island on which he lives deny him normal privileges until he complies.

The one—most important—principle is to never allow his rebellion to be successful. Always win the contest. You can do this because of your position as banker, cook, house cleaner, playtime supervisor, work detail manager, etc. Stand your ground. If you develop a reputation as a winner of conflicts, you will be home free. If you develop a reputation as a vacillating wimp that whines and complains about how you are treated, they will run over you like a discarded aluminum can. The key is to win. Always win. Stand by your demands. Be just. Be reasonable. Be consistent. Be tough. Be there all the time, ever in his face, loving, laughing, smiling, and demanding compliance as foreman of the home.

Without use of the rod, you will be handicapped but not crippled. You won’t do as good of a job as you could have done, but with determination and vigilance, you can do a better job than 99% of the other Christian parents who have full freedom to use the rod.
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Amazing blend of the language of compassion and conventionality with extremism. Its kind of disarming without the fire and brimstone.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Aaron »

Formless wrote: That would be a subset of mental abuse, wouldn't it? Without ever laying a hand on someone you can cause significant stress and pain in a person's life by being threatening, making them fear you, make them feel sad or guilty over things that aren't their fault, embarrassing them socially or sexually, etc.. Many torture techniques used in Guantanamo were like that.
Probably. It's as good a definition as I've seen.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Remember suffer the little children who come to me.  So the bible supports child abuse
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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On the other hand whipping, beating, and making someone think they are less than human through your words are techniques explicitly designed to cause them pain and grief, and not to accomplish a noble goal either-- breaking someone's spirit and bending them to your will. Liberty Ferall's posts have clearly established that that is their goal, and psychology shows that the promises of getting a well adjusted child out of it are bullshit as well. Ignorance of that fact should not be an excuse.
Two points. First, the bolded: the ultimate goal - both the Pearls and my in-laws would, I think, profess this -- is a happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult. The difference between the Pearls and much of the commentary in this thread is not the ultimate goal of punishment, which is discipline enacted in order to raise a healthy adult; it is the method which is believed to achieve that goal. According the Pearls, it is necessary to bend children to their parents at a young age to establish the requisite discipline for a healthy adulthood, and corporal punishment is permissible. The cultural consensus differs obviously.

Second, I'm hesitant to ascribe certainty to psychology. It's pretty clear you can get a relatively well-adjusted adult without following the Pearls' methods, but (and it doesn't seem you're saying this, but I want to make the point) it doesn't follow that use of the Pearls' methods will necessarily (or even a majority of the time) in and of itself result in a maladjusted adult. For example, I point to my wife. Humans are just so damned complicated, I don't see how anybody could profess that with certainty. (Mind, again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.) Now this is not the infamous "I was spanked and I turned out okay" defense; just cautioning against being too certain about this topic's details.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Liberty »

General Brock wrote:Just out of curiosity, do either Michael Pearl or Debi Pearl have a Jewish background? Its just speculation, but if he's a convert, that might explain the overzealousness a little. The pressure to conform and be the perfect Christian by some interpretation of fundamentalist standards might lead to problems.
Here is what I know, and I'll get the Help Meet book later, because I think it had more information, but it's in the baby's room and she's asleep. Anyway, Debi was going to the church where Mike was a young pastor, and she was really interested in him and wished he would notice her. She was like 19, he was like 26. Finally, he noticed her. Instead of having a normal dating relationship, he just asked her to marry him. She said yes, and a week later they were wed. They then spent some time in the Jesus Freak movement ministering to ex-hippies. I really will get that book and check...but it really is in the baby's room at the moment.

Oh, and according to the To Train Up a Child book, which I do have here, To Train Up a Child is in print in over a dozen different languages, including German.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Hah! This thread has some excerpts from the book! I knew I'd posted some of those before. :D

On an unrelated note, an auxiliary point to my previous post: it's important to keep in mind that as far as things like religion and childrearing are concerned, fundamentalists and evangelicals are from an entirely different culture. Their standards are often, quite literally, foreign -- they may as well be from ancient Rome or the Middle East or <insert conceivably foreign culture here>. That's not to say we shouldn't judge them, but we should bear in mind that we're not dealing with people from the typical Western Enlightenment zeitgeist of which this board is largely representative.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Formless »

Surlethe wrote:Two points. First, the bolded: the ultimate goal - both the Pearls and my in-laws would, I think, profess this -- is a happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult. The difference between the Pearls and much of the commentary in this thread is not the ultimate goal of punishment, which is discipline enacted in order to raise a healthy adult; it is the method which is believed to achieve that goal. According the Pearls, it is necessary to bend children to their parents at a young age to establish the requisite discipline for a healthy adulthood, and corporal punishment is permissible. The cultural consensus differs obviously.
Yes, their ultimate goal is to raise a healthy, well adjusted child. But their subgoal is to cause pain in the hopes of making them obedient. Notice the word substitution. I don't think someone who is obedient to authority merely out of fear is a healthy, well adjusted person. Their subgoal contradicts their ultimate purpose, and they do not understand this fact.
Second, I'm hesitant to ascribe such certainty to psychology. It's pretty clear you can get a relatively well-adjusted adult without following the Pearls' methods, but (and it doesn't seem you're saying this, but I want to make the point) it doesn't follow that use of the Pearls' methods will necessarily (or even a majority of the time) in and of itself result in a maladjusted adult. For example, I point to my wife. Humans are just so damned complicated, I don't see how anybody could profess that with certainty. (Mind, again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.) Now this is not the infamous "I was spanked and I turned out okay" defense; just cautioning against being too certain about this topic's details.
I see what you are saying, but knowing the mechanisms involved and the known pattern of abuse victims becoming abusers themselves (your own wife did say she has to fight down the urge to parent as her parents did- after all, who are you most likely to learn parenting skills from if not your own parents?) I don't see why its easier to assume that the examples of people who turned out okay were well adjusted because of the abuse and not in spite of it. Heck, I was spanked as a child and turned out all right. I don't even remember what it was over because I was young enough and my parents were keen on only doing it in extreme circumstances, and then not after I was ten. Some level of corporal punishment may in fact be acceptable. But whipping or beating a kid with a piece of plumbing? I would think the fact that that can kill makes it self evident that that is way over the line, even setting aside psychology.
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