Walk softly...

[Simon_Jester]

I have had the misfortune of reading "My Immortal", and to have what I have written compared to... 'that', is a little disheartening. I'm rewriting the whole first chapter right now,though I suspect that given the responses to my writing ability, or rather the lack thereof, it wont meet help much. To be honest this is the first story i've had enough interest in to write, hopefully i can get the main theme across before I ruin the story.

A suggestion:

Don't treat this as an opportunity to convey a theme to a passive audience. It isn't.

What you've got here is a (very) actively participating audience, one that gives you feedback that outweighs the actual story segments. Use it to your advantage- to become a better writer. This story is not the be-all and end-all of your writing career, and is better thought of as a launch-pad: something you'll look back on in ten years and think "My God, did I write that?" because you're that much better then than you are now.

That means that it's in your interests to discuss the theme and tone of the work with the audience, treating them as fellow writers, rather than just rolling out segment after segment. Don't just write; discuss. Tell us why you chose to create such an unsympathetic protagonist for the first scene, and why you wrote four seemingly unconnected scenes. What are your goals, and how do you plan to achieve them?

[spartasman]

Very well, I suppose it wont make the story any worse if i reveal the purpose behind it. When I read Stuarts story, I was particularly interested in the New Roman Empire, and how it seemed to grow so quickly, why so many American citizens had become citizens after dieing, and how it was lead by an extremely charismatic and powerful leader; one that could be a threat to the H.E.A's own power. My intent was to write about an effort to establish a competing power, something like "the United States Of Hell". The first character is going to be a major antagonist later on, and all the other characters will hopefully tie in eventually. Unfortunately, I accedentaly deleted the re-write of the first chapter I had been working on, meaning that I have to re-do the whole thing. It might not be until this weekend before I post it.

I understand that my writing is poor, I have always had problems with punctuation and form. I don't always catch them the first time around, so just be patient and I will try to resolve all of the literary issues.

[Edward Yee]

You do however have to be prepared to defend your very premise; New Rome won't be a threat to the HEA's own power for quite some time, albeit it's only recently that the HEA has made any moves to check New Rome's (namely, giving GEN Petraeus direct release authority over the HEA WMD arsenal to minimize human fatalities and therefore more recruits for New Rome).

[Simon_Jester]

Very well, I suppose it wont make the story any worse if i reveal the purpose behind it. When I read Stuarts story, I was particularly interested in the New Roman Empire, and how it seemed to grow so quickly, why so many American citizens had become citizens after dieing, and how it was lead by an extremely charismatic and powerful leader; one that could be a threat to the H.E.A's own power. My intent was to write about an effort to establish a competing power, something like "the United States Of Hell". The first character is going to be a major antagonist later on, and all the other characters will hopefully tie in eventually. Unfortunately, I accedentaly deleted the re-write of the first chapter I had been working on, meaning that I have to re-do the whole thing. It might not be until this weekend before I post it.

One problem I see is that your first character doesn't show any signs of being particularly talented. There's nothing about him that shouts "Yes, this person could be a dangerous enemy!" He's just a contemptible thieving little bastard with delusions of self-importance.

Another is the one Edward points out: that the image of New Rome growing quickly is partly false. They are growing, but:
-Their rate of expansion is limited by the rate at which people die.
-Their access to modern industry is limited; they're building an industrial base literally from nothing, and without one they are not a credible competitor.
-They are completely dependent on major powers on Earth for their weapons, without which they cannot defend themselves (this ties into the industrial problem).

In a hundred years, New Rome may well be a serious competitor. But not soon.

I suggest you look over the sections where Stuart talks about the logistics of New Rome (what assets they have available, how hard people are working to build stuff up), and think carefully about how to fit your premise to the facts of the setting. I also suggest that you check your work very closely for grammatical and factual problems (like "Earth time") before posting. Good authors do a lot of revising and editing without being told to, and the practice they get from doing that helps them become good.

Another question: do you have an eye to how all your scenes will fit together already? Saying that character storylines will "hopefully" tie together is... a bit alarming, shall we say.

[Edward Yee]

-Their access to modern industry is limited; they're building an industrial base literally from nothing, and without one they are not a credible competitor.
-They are completely dependent on major powers on Earth for their weapons, without which they cannot defend themselves (this ties into the industrial problem).

If you'd like an example of a "Salvation War" fanfic, please look at Stas Bush's "Don't Wake Me While I'm Quiet," which despite including another proto-state in Hell of his own creation (a former Marshal of the Soviet Union to whom Russian military officers disgruntled by the early 1990s flocked), accounted for these.

[spartasman]

I fully understand the current powers of New Rome in the story. I understand that they are not nearly powerful enough to challenge the might of the H.E.A. But then again, Ceaser has great talent at statesmanship and tact, given that he usurped command of an entire Paratroop company. Stuart wrote himself that his growing power was troubling, and that his gobbling-up of deceased Americans and others could be problematic. I mean, how long will it be before he invites nuclear physicians, engineers, political leaders into the Empire. That sort of thing is a major security risk. And how long do you think it would take for New Rome to have a population of billions, they aren't just accepting the new dead as citizens after all. So it would seem logical that, in order to keep Ceaser from getting a hold on important personnel, and just people in general, the H.E.A would either have to detain such people, or create a continuation of the U.S.A in hell to keep them from Ceaser's grasp.

[K. A. Pital]

When I created the Soviet Republic of Dis, I was thinking about how the reality of Hell's feudalism mixes with more advanced social structures known to humans from the XIX-XX century...

The end result was that large Hell-states can form only if they utilize a sort of "right kind of feudalism" approach - their top has a core mobile high-tech force (that would be low tech for earthlings, but high tech for hell), some modern communications, direct link to the Earth occupation command, and from there down below goes a semi-feudal power structure, where humans take over large swaths of land and simply control it (them not requiring food allows for this nicely), and the earlier a human died, the lower is his position. Thus the XIX-XX century dead would form the ruling power for these proto-states. Especially relevant since the XIX-XX century dead give a huge fraction of all human dead due to the population explosion thanks to the industrial revolution.

For a time, they will look rather deformed,millions of undead living in feudalism with a little modernity at the core, but as they make their labour copy Earth industries, they will become crude large industrial societies with a natural advantage of not having to expend food to support their populace. Each Hell citizen is a undying autonomus labour unit. So I figured. It's really more complex; Hell is a society quite different from ours. Undoubtedly feudalism at the start, but then... all bets are off.

I have actually evaluated the possible industrial rise of Hell; first of all, the fact that Earth would be eager to relocate some industry to Hell, where never-eating and never-weary workers can significantly increase the productivity of simple industries (like making bullets for Kalashnikovs) for the mobilization economy. This can serve as a base for the Hell states to start from.

[Simon_Jester]

Spartasman, from this point on I am going to try to identify language problems, because it's extremely important. It's difficult to overstate just how big a deal this is, especially when the errors are cropping up at a rate of one or two per sentence.

I fully understand the current powers of New Rome in the story. I understand that they are not nearly powerful enough to challenge the might of the H.E.A. But then again, Ceaser has great talent at statesmanship and tact, given that he usurped command of an entire Paratroop company.

Ahem: Caesar. This really has to be gotten right; not only is it the name of one of the most famous men in the history of, well, history... it's the title of several hundred years worth of emperors.

Also, "Paratroop" is not normally capitalized.

Also, "tact?" Do you mean "tactics?" Or do you mean something else? "Tact" is not an abbreviation of "tactics" in English.

Stuart wrote himself that his growing power was troubling, and that his gobbling-up of deceased Americans and others could be problematic. I mean, how long will it be before he invites nuclear physicians, engineers, political leaders into the Empire.

Question mark at end of sentence?

Also, in a list of three or more items "invites A, B, C," the last item gets an "and." Thus:
"...he invites nuclear physicists, engineers, and political leaders..."

Also, "physician" and "physicist" are not the same thing; I ought to know, since I'm one and not the other.

Grammar aside, though, the short answer is "at least as long as the US and other countries keep a program in place to secure access to those people." There are plenty of precedents for stopping people with valuable information (especially classified information that the government keeps secret). You can do that without restricting emigration* on everyone.

*"Emigration" is the opposite of "immigration:" people emigrate from one country and go to another when they are immigrating.

That sort of thing is a major security risk. And how long do you think it would take for New Rome to have a population of billions, they aren't just accepting the new dead as citizens after all. So it would seem logical that, in order to keep Ceaser from getting a hold on important personnel, and just people in general, the H.E.A would either have to detain such people, or create a continuation of the U.S.A in hell to keep them from Ceaser's grasp.

"...have a population of billions ? They aren't just accepting the new dead as citizens, after all."

Also, again, Caesar. Also, Hell is generally capitalized.

Again, grammar aside, you're basically right. As I said before, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with your grasp of the setting; you seem to have understood Stuart's work at least as well as the average reader, and very possibly better. Your only problem (and it is a big one) is that your ability to write clear, well-informed English prose needs to be worked on, because it's getting in the way of your message.

Do you have a clear picture of how events in your story are going to evolve over, say, the next ten scenes? Twenty? However many you intend to write?

[Stuart]

Very well, I suppose it wont make the story any worse if i reveal the purpose behind it. When I read Stuarts story, I was particularly interested in the New Roman Empire, and how it seemed to grow so quickly, why so many American citizens had become citizens after dieing, and how it was lead by an extremely charismatic and powerful leader; one that could be a threat to the H.E.A's own power. My intent was to write about an effort to establish a competing power, something like "the United States Of Hell". The first character is going to be a major antagonist later on, and all the other characters will hopefully tie in eventually. Unfortunately, I accedentaly deleted the re-write of the first chapter I had been working on, meaning that I have to re-do the whole thing. It might not be until this weekend before I post it. I understand that my writing is poor, I have always had problems with punctuation and form. I don't always catch them the first time around, so just be patient and I will try to resolve all of the literary issues.

I did ask this before but perhaps it got lost in the shuffle. Please email the text to me first before posting it so I can ensure the thing fits in with the storyline. Specifically; please delete the portions on Robert E Lee; I have established and precise plans for him and know where he's going.

The "United States of Hell" or whatever isn't going to happen and couldn't happen. The range of people and societies pouring into Hell is such that any such conglomeration wouldn't be plausible. In any case, I have things going off in a much more chaotic and flexible way. This is an important thing to remember; I have the basic storyline for the TSW trilogy mapped out in significant detail right up to the end of the third book. Other stories have to fit in with that (one idea I'm playing with is to publish a fourth book that will include novellas from other people - Don't wake me when I'm sleeping" being a good example).

I strongly urge that you sit down and rethink how this is going to go. Stas Bush's story works because it is set in the part of the story when events have already been defined and established. The sheer size and extent of Hell and the multiplicity of client states and so on was deliberately created to give people flexibility in writing stories without interfering with the broad sweep of the narrative. Your material essentially takes ithe storyline off in an undesirable direction; to avoid this I urge you to keep your material within the time and situation as revealed to date.

[spartasman]

I've already planned to remove the bit with Robert E. Lee, I don't know when I'll be able to finish the edit, but when I do, I will forward it to you for approval. I'll reconsider the time line, definitely. It will most likely end up in 2008-2009, which is better anyway. The entire purpose behind creating something like the "United States of Hell" wouldn't be simply to just accept deceased American Nationals, but to create a counter to Caeser, in order to balance the power play in hell. So far as I can interpret the main contenders in Hell are; the H.E.A and their respective governments, the New Roman Republic, the Demons state (which is essentially a puppet of the H.E.A), and then several rogue Demon Dukedoms and a few human warlords. Something like the U.S.H would be able to compete with the New Roman Republic, without being too much of a free radical or a puppet state. Personally I intend to res-erect Theodore Roosevelt as a leader, seeing as how he himself was a powerful, enigmatic, and forceful leader, much like Caeser. I imagine I'll have fun with creating 'Big Stick' politics in Hell. But as of yet I don't truly have the plot mapped out, only a few general directions in which I want to take the characters.

[Simon_Jester]

This is mostly a grammar thing. Just to underline, I think that your intent is good: the story you desire to write is probably a story worth writing. The problem is in the execution, in clear writing and in well thought out plots on the small scale level of getting facts straight and writing scenes that further your purpose.

I've already planned to remove the bit with Robert E. Lee, I don't know when I'll be able to finish the edit, but when I do, I will forward it to you for approval.

"...remove the bit with Robert E. Lee. [End of sentence] I don't know when..."

Seriously, those two phrases do not fit together well in one sentence.

The entire purpose behind creating something like the "United States of Hell" wouldn't be simply to just accept deceased American Nationals, but to create a counter to Caeser, in order to balance the power play in hell.

"Nationals" is not normally capitalized. "Hell." is normally capitalized. "Caesar" has two A's and only one E.

So far as I can interpret the main contenders in Hell are; the H.E.A and their respective governments, the New Roman Republic, the Demons state (which is essentially a puppet of the H.E.A)...

Apostrophe? Also, "demon" is not normally capitalized.

...and then several rogue Demon Dukedoms and a few human warlords. Something like the U.S.H would be able to compete with the New Roman Republic, without being too much of a free radical or a puppet state.

Surely the American government would try to make a puppet of it, though.

Also, like "demon," "dukedom" is not normally capitalized except as part of the name of a specific political entity: the Dukedom of Dunderhead. But if speaking of the three regions ruled by Dukes Dunderhead, Dummkopf, and Döppelgänger, we speak of three dukedoms. Or duchies.

Personally I intend to res-erect Theodore Roosevelt as a leader, seeing as how he himself was a powerful, enigmatic, and forceful leader, much like Caeser.

Spelling of Caesar again. Also, "resurrect" is not formed from the words "res" and "erect." It is its own word.

But more seriously, there's a problem with the choice of Mr. Roosevelt. Stuart has been trying hard to minimize the "aren't historical figures AWESOME!?" aspect of his story. Stas Bush in his fanfic (which should probably be your model, because if you do half the job he did you have every right to be proud of yourself) did the same, by taking Peter the Great, one of the most heroic and important figures in Russian history... and making him the sad old man running a little castle in the middle of nowhere in Hell.

The thing to remember is that a lot of the success of any leader depends on luck. Peter the Great was lucky enough to be born in position to become Czar of Russia. Teddy Roosevelt was born to the upper crust of the New York aristocracy, which gave him endless political contacts to work with. And so on.

In Hell, all these virtues are levelled. Everyone starts out at the same level, with the same basic disadvantage (centuries of demon torture; the older the historical figure, the less likely they are to be the man they used to be). Joey the Candy Store Clerk who died in 1920 has just as much in the way of resources and contacts as Teddy Roosevelt, who died in the same year, does.

So if Joey the Candy Store Clerk was actually a guy with the potential to be a world-historical genius, but who just happened to get a shitty education and wind up in a dead-end job until he got run over by a bus... why isn't he in charge in Hell and not TR? Isn't it largely a matter of luck?

To some extent, of course, historical name recognition helps... but that's really the only advantage historical celebrities have over other people from the same era, or over the living.

And conversely, the experience of going to Hell (which most of them did NOT expect) and being tortured by demons may take a lot out of some historical figures. Others may have done something daring, tried and failed to escape, and gotten ripped apart and eaten for their troubles- I believe someone mentioned Alexander the Great in this context. So it's risky to assume that any given person who was awesome in real life will be equally awesome in Hell, with major psychological damage and in the complete absence of their old contacts and class advantages.

[spartasman]

The reason that I chose Teddy Roosevelt was not just the fact that he was a major historical figure. Besides the fact that the man did indeed get lucky with his placement in society, much of his success would have to be given to the man himself. Caesar (did i finally get it right?) was as much born into privilege as T.R, if not more so, so I do not see how choosing him would be any different from Stuarts choosing of Caesar. Given that Caesar had the advantage of being free for his time in Hell. But even then, T.R was a man of great prowess, and I would like to think that even 90 years in hell wouldn't have hurt the human hurricane.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

The reason that I chose Teddy Roosevelt was not just the fact that he was a major historical figure. Besides the fact that the man did indeed get lucky with his placement in society, much of his success would have to be given to the man himself. Caesar (did i finally get it right?) was as much born into privilege as T.R, if not more so, so I do not see how choosing him would be any different from Stuarts choosing of Caesar.

If you fail to see that, then you've somehow managed to read the first book and the first part of this current one, while entirely missing a critical point. Which is that Caesar is free because he enjoys the protection of the Others. Teddy Roosevelt, having been a Christian in life, enjoys no such protection. He'd have been tossed right into the Pit along with nearly everyone else.

Given that Caesar had the advantage of being free for his time in Hell. But even then, T.R was a man of great prowess, and I would like to think that even 90 years in hell wouldn't have hurt the human hurricane.

Theodore Roosevelt might've been a man of great prowess, but, compared to a daemon from Hell . . . it'd be like pitting Roosevelt against a small, sickly child. One would have to first find him among the seething masses of the damned. After that . . . first, he'd be hopelessly out of date with respect to politics and military strategy. Second, upon his rehabilitation, the first thing he's likely to want to do is to want to join some sort of overland expedition to explore Hell and attempt to kill its largest, most dangerous fauna with large hunting rifles . . . for science! There's a sizeable river in Brazil named for him, after all.

[Edward Yee]

To some extent, of course, historical name recognition helps... but that's really the only advantage historical celebrities have over other people from the same era, or over the living.

Spartasman, if you look at Stas Bush's story, please be aware that these "Russian-culture" proto-states arose from "grassroots" support, or at least their populations' distaste for the modern Russian (form of) government. Sure, Kliment Voroshilov had his own distaste for what he found out of the USSR's fate and benefited from a "ready made fan base" of Soviet veterans of WWII, but its was their anger and zeal, combined with that of those who'd died in the 1990s, that essentially pushed him to high office. Caesar didn't break out, he was able to avoid being tortured but still had to hide along with his followers and Rahab before meeting the PFLH and agreeing to benefit from their military resources. Even then, you can see at times how much these "semi-independent leaders in Hell" are still relying on very-recent humans for technical assistance. (Voroshilov... not a laptop expert.) Finally, near the end of the story, I understand that the Earth-Russians ended up simply rounding up everyone at Peter the Great's castle, possibly including him.

Guillaume Emmanuel Guignard, vicomte de Saint-Priest from that story is an example of how to write a non-pathetic antagonist. Sure, I sympathize with Henry's feeling out of place in America post-Curbstomp War because of lacking the skills newly desired, and lacking the same drive as other people to not be a lazy bum... but no, I don't see myself being so irrationally pissed at the lack of booze, much less coming off quite that pathetic. Hell, at least Guillaume's mindset is a mix of absurd and hilarious. Guillaume, oh Guillaume, how I've missed mocking you...

Some weakling called "Putin" commanded his beloved second homeland, his Mother Russia, and nobility has vanished?

This alone should tell you how out-of-touch some of the Hell people are, along with one of his stated goals in the story: Find and kill Napoleon Bonaparte. Seriously.

P.S. Stas Bush, what did Medvedev fuck up to get recalled in favor of Ivanov?

[K. A. Pital]

Stas Bush, what did Medvedev fuck up to get recalled in favor of Ivanov?

I tried to make a simple alt-political prediction - Ivanov used to be the defence lobby whereas Medvedev was the financial lobby. It's easy to see which one is preferrable in total war.

As for the overall discussion, I think Stuart outlined quite thoroughly that most or all dead people go to Hell. This means the diversity of cultures, ages and epochs (and thus mentality) is immense. You can have tribal cannibals along with XX century soldiers and engineers, and that's something I feel will boggle Hell for ages.

Unions of more than a few hundred million people are unlikely (that's about as much as one can collect from a similar era; all Russia XX century dead would most likely be around a billion, though I can't be sure. This is discounting any losses due to possible ultimate deaths in Hell.

So if there even is a "United States of Hell", it would only be a tiny peck in the giant human wave that is hell. The US is hardly the most populous nation in the world; even in the XIX-XX century, US population markedly rose only close to the end of that period. Which means there's no large base to build a Hellverse US on. Neither is there any reasonable political incentive for it to form, other than being an extention (and a puppet goverment or semi-colony) of Earth USA. That is if Earth USA even bothered to set up something like this in it's occupation zone. All US conflicts are a thing of the past and populations were very small back then; as were the armies, and the death tolls. The US Civil War or Independence War, for example, is a pathetically small event by both participation and death toll; meaning you can't really play on these events unless the US Civil War or US Idependence War "proto-states" formed are very, very small. Like, 5-10 million people small - less than some Earth cities.

Such micro feudal states might be interesting - but only if written right.

A "Hell USA" which suddenly becomes any larger than 100-200 hundred million is very, very unlikely.

P.S. Oh, and I've read that fanfic. Could've been worse. At least the author's interested in the potential of the story.
P.P.S. The British Empire offers an interesting historical subject; it's huge, and it's effects would have spread though Hellverse dead humans in "layers" so to say; the Indian subset of the undead, for the pre-independence period, would be rather heavily affected for example. Certainly the British Empire undead would be much more numerous and influential than the US undead.

[Shroom Man 777]

I fully understand the current powers of New Rome in the story. I understand that they are not nearly powerful enough to challenge the might of the H.E.A. But then again, Ceaser has great talent at statesmanship and tact, given that he usurped command of an entire Paratroop company.

That is not an astounding feat. The circumstances were difficult and Caesar did have local political authority at that time and, thus, it is understandable why the soldier/paratrooper deferred to him in that situation.

Stuart wrote himself that his growing power was troubling, and that his gobbling-up of deceased Americans and others could be problematic. I mean, how long will it be before he invites nuclear physicians, engineers, political leaders into the Empire. That sort of thing is a major security risk.

New Rome isn't a security risk in that it will suddenly develop nuclear bombs or have "strong" power. Its risk is that in Caesar's influence, political one, will create some big power in Hell that will challenge Earth influence - but NOT conventionally/militaristically, but more of in a political fashion.

Even if they get nuclear physicians in them (lol, the word is nuclear physicist - unless you've got a clinical doctor doing nuclear medicine or something), there's still shit for technology in Hell and they'd have to develop the requisite technology and the requisite production facilities to MAKE that technology, in Hell. Either that or the Earth nations have to give them that technology.

Fucking Steve Jobs might die of cancer and wake up dead in Hell, but without all the facilities we take for granted, there's no way in Hell he's going to be suddenly creating iPods or other technologies that might present a "major security risk" for Earth. Nuclear physicians will similarly face this problem in the pursuit of their nuclear clinical/medical practice.

And how long do you think it would take for New Rome to have a population of billions, they aren't just accepting the new dead as citizens after all. So it would seem logical that, in order to keep Ceaser from getting a hold on important personnel, and just people in general, the H.E.A would either have to detain such people, or create a continuation of the U.S.A in hell to keep them from Ceaser's grasp.

This is why they've got President Abrigor on the red phone. The red stands for Hell!

[spartasman]

I admit that Hell U.S.A would be pathetically small, if it were simply made up of dead Americans. The hallmark of America is that it has always recieved large numbers of foreign immigrants, and there are certainly plenty of those in Hell. How many Russian or German peasants DIDN'T immigrate to the U.S.A during the first 150 years of our nations history. How many people do you think would immigrate to a nation in Hell if it offered the same opportunities, offered protection, or offered freedoms. As always, the Hell U.S.A would rely upon immigrants to build up its population.

[JBG]

Spartasman, I cannot commend Simon Jester's comments regarding grammar strongly enough. A thorough understanding and knowledge of English grammar is absolutely fundamental should you desire to write.

[K. A. Pital]

I admit that Hell U.S.A would be pathetically small, if it were simply made up of dead Americans.

Of whom else can it be made? Well, possibly some dead Britons, Canadians and Australians. The language barrier cuts out 99% of other possibilities.

The hallmark of America is that it has always recieved large numbers of foreign immigrants, and there are certainly plenty of those in Hell. How many Russian or German peasants DIDN'T immigrate to the U.S.A during the first 150 years of our nations history. How many people do you think would immigrate to a nation in Hell if it offered the same opportunities, offered protection, or offered freedoms.

The problem is that Hell USA cannot offer any of those. It has no industrial infrastructure, no "protection" (not any more than any other Hell state), and it's freedoms would most likely look like a form of feudalism, because that's the only organization of society which can arise in Hell, industrial production being abscent which leaves out industrial capitalism until decades, if not ages of development, pass.

As always, the Hell U.S.A would rely upon immigrants to build up its population.

I think Hell would divide across time eras and languages almost immediately. Even English-speaking populations would fracture due to enormous time differences (I couldn't imagine shaking a hand of a slavery-era white man; I don't think many people would do it anyhow), the language and culture fractions would be even stronger.

Most nation-states would form out of nationalities, much like on Earth. Hell USA does not have decades or ages to form up it's population; unless you want to set your fanfix X decades or centuries in the future of Hell.

Be rational; always think of what would realistically happen, not what you'd want to happen.

[spartasman]

First of all, their is no language barrier, all of the dead can understand every language spoken, and that's canon. Secondly, much like the Republic of Dis, the Hell U.S.A would be funded/supplied by the Earth U.S. Granted there would be no (immediate) industrial base upon which to build a democracy, you must remember that Hell citizens do not need to eat, so therefore they can entirely devote their efforts on building infrastructure. This would of course not be easy, not by any stretch of the imagination, but over time, even a short period, actual progress could be easily be obtained.

Also, any Hell U.S.A would be based off of the principals of democracy, and would therefore enjoy more freedom than any number of feudal states that would arise in hell. I mean, if you were a Frisian peasant from 1245 A.D and heard that you had the ability to become a citizen, for basically free (perhaps a required military term would be required for all non-American citizens), would you rather go there, or serve some duke who only promises you the life that you led before you died and went to hell? Likewise, there are about 23 million Ukrainian peasants from the 1920's and 30's who I think would be rather disdainful at the idea of joining one of the numerous communist states.

[K. A. Pital]

First of all, their is no language barrier, all of the dead can understand every language spoken, and that's canon.

Oh, my bad then.

Granted there would be no (immediate) industrial base upon which to build a democracy, you must remember that Hell citizens do not need to eat, so therefore they can entirely devote their efforts on building infrastructure. This would of course not be easy, not by any stretch of the imagination, but over time, even a short period, actual progress could be easily be obtained.

Democracy does not require an industrial base; it's a type of government.

Also, any Hell U.S.A would be based off of the principals of democracy, and would therefore enjoy more freedom than any number of feudal states that would arise in hell.

What matters is the wealth you can provide now or in the short term. Hell USA, unlike real USA, hardly can...

I mean, if you were a Frisian peasant from 1245 A.D and heard that you had the ability to become a citizen, for basically free (perhaps a required military term would be required for all non-American citizens), would you rather go there, or serve some duke who only promises you the life that you led before you died and went to hell?

It depends. If the duke gives more wealth than Hell USA, he would certainly get more followers. A citizenship of Hell USA would not improve the economic well-being of a Hell citizen; quite unlike Earth USA, which had a massive economic and life level advantage over Third World states and thus enjoyed immigration. Hell states do not have this; they are all equally poor, having almost nothing in terms of modern tech.

Likewise, there are about 23 million Ukrainian peasants from the 1920's and 30's who I think would be rather disdainful at the idea of joining one of the numerous communist states.

They would most likely join any number of Slavic fractured states, legacy Russian feudal states or the like. The Russian Empire had a pretty large population and there's a vast variety of periods to choose from.

Even without the language barrier, the cultural barrier remains. The Chinese would stick with Chinese, Russians with Russians, English-speaking with English speaking... etc. It's more natural than suddenly pouring into one of the thousands of Hell fiefdoms that decided to call itself "USA" without having any superior life level to other places in Hell.

Moreover, with Hell not requring basic nutrition for humans, and offering regeneration, there must be a huge economic stimulus (in the form of Earth made goods - good modern housing, transport, etc.) to draw people from one Hell state to another. Else the life level is equal and the incentive to move is not present.

A Middle Age peasant might be so culturally different that he'd never even integrate into the modern society anyway.

One huge incentive that I pondered upon is not dying a second time. That can be a focal point for popular unification of Hell citizens; unlike Earth citizens, they have no second life chance. But the problem here is that this ideal, which can unify truly large masses of Hell undead, puts them at odds with the goals of Earth humans that are still fighting a war with Heaven. Hell undead would be unlikely willing to serve as soldiers, for example, because the risk is much greater for them than for any Earth man.

However, Hell USA once again hardly offers anything unique here. I mean, you could take a Greek or Polish feudal democracy and they'd be better suited, culturally and in terms of the feudal state of society in Hell, to spread out and gather followers, than the US Hell puppet state.

[Edward Yee]

One huge incentive that I pondered upon is not dying a second time. That can be a focal point for popular unification of Hell citizens; unlike Earth citizens, they have no second life chance. But the problem here is that this ideal, which can unify truly large masses of Hell undead, puts them at odds with the goals of Earth humans that are still fighting a war with Heaven. Hell undead would be unlikely willing to serve as soldiers, for example, because the risk is much greater for them than for any Earth man.

I don't believe that "true death" (in the sense of oblivion) was canonized as definitely the case, just that no one knows if there's a "Third Life," much less any details.

[K. A. Pital]

I never said it's a true death either; "second death" is fearful enough for anybody undead though - even if it's not oblivion, getting into a not-yet-liberated dimension that can be worse than Hell or Heaven = not a good prospect for a human being.

[Simon_Jester]

Democracy does not require an industrial base; it's a type of government.

Although many have argued that it depends on certain economic conditions. I'm not enough of an expert to be able to say, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that building a working democracy in a place where most of the population has never heard of it before and where there is effectively no infrastructure would be... difficult.

A Middle Age peasant might be so culturally different that he'd never even integrate into the modern society anyway.

This is an interesting one. I'd expect it given sufficient time, but I don't know.

People who started out as peasants "with nothing but the shirt on their back" have integrated into modern or semimodern societies before, but not everyone makes it. And usually assimilation doesn't really kick into high gear until the second and third generations, which isn't a factor in Hell.

One huge incentive that I pondered upon is not dying a second time. That can be a focal point for popular unification of Hell citizens; unlike Earth citizens, they have no second life chance. But the problem here is that this ideal, which can unify truly large masses of Hell undead, puts them at odds with the goals of Earth humans that are still fighting a war with Heaven. Hell undead would be unlikely willing to serve as soldiers, for example, because the risk is much greater for them than for any Earth man.

True, although the risk of dying and not being reborn are little greater for a Second Life human than they are in the eyes of, say, a real life atheist- and contrary to popular conceit there are atheists in foxholes.

You'd still get some who would sign up: people for whom being a soldier is a large part of their self-image, mostly. But it would be practically impossible to set up any kind of conscription system, I agree.

[K. A. Pital]

I'm not enough of an expert to be able to say, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that building a working democracy in a place where most of the population has never heard of it before and where there is effectively no infrastructure would be... difficult.

There had been slavery-age and feudal-age democracies, so quite certainly building a democracy without any modern industry is possible.