SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Typhonis 1]

hmmmm we could put spike dropers on the Zepplin how much damage would a finned one pound spike being droped from 1000 feet do?

[Rob Wilson]

How Effective is the Galil ARM in 7.62? I know it uses the Klashnikov action and it has a 5.56 version but thats alll

It's pretty good, I'm only saying SLR simply because I know from firsthand experience how resilient it is to hard physical abuse, and how easy it is to get recruits to hit a target with it. It'll quite happily take being used as a improvised lever to right a fallen crate of ammo, then 5 miuntes later be shooting on the range.

[Rob Wilson]

hmmmm we could put spike dropers on the Zepplin how much damage would a finned one pound spike being droped from 1000 feet do?

Probably quite a bit, but how do you aim it and ensure it hit it's target? Just have a rifleman up there.

[Ren]

But we would still have to defeat Sauron and his inhuman allies in a main force confrontation. The question, I think, is really how much time we should take maximizing our own strength and minimizing that of the enemy, before the gains stop outweighing the risks?

You are trying to react to the events in the book rather than activly try to stop Sauron, if you act within two to five years after arriving on Middle Earth Sauron will have no main force and thus it will not be necessary to defeat it.

[Sea Skimmer]

hmmmm we could put spike dropers on the Zepplin how much damage would a finned one pound spike being droped from 1000 feet do?

Probably quite a bit, but how do you aim it and ensure it hit it's target? Just have a rifleman up there.

The French had a few successes dropping clusters of small metal darts, about 500 at a time, from aircraft in 1915. Against troops massed in the open it could work quite well.

[Cpt_Frank]

hmmmm we could put spike dropers on the Zepplin how much damage would a finned one pound spike being droped from 1000 feet do?

Probably quite a bit, but how do you aim it and ensure it hit it's target? Just have a rifleman up there.

The French had a few successes dropping clusters of small metal darts, about 500 at a time, from aircraft in 1915. Against troops massed in the open it could work quite well.

Why bother? Dropping primitive bombs will do.

[Enforcer Talen]

whats the height of a zeppelin? just through a few thousand tacks and watch gravity do it's merry work.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Rob, I have the concern that maybe that ISN'T a sure way to destroy the ring. Think of this:

1. We may be on an alternate ME where the ring-bearer will fail.
2. We may be on the real ME, and the story of his success in our universe was caused by another such cross-universal trip of somebody fleeing Sauron's power and writing a wistful epic of what might have been.
3. Our presence will screw up history and cause him to fail even if we don't do anything or commit mass suicide or something like that.

Those things considered - Nevermind the simple fact that I wouldn't want to trust my life to such minimal chances if we didn't know they were going to succeed in the first place (which is only due to book evidence from another universe written by a human who lived in that other universe) - I would rather go with a more precise and sure method.

Or, to put it simply: I'll trust that God will protect the side with the bigger battalions.

[Durandal]

Come to think of it, it doesn't even have to be a Zeppelin. It could be a balloon. Manufacturing balloons is also much easier, so we could easily make a squadron of the things in a few years, and they still float high enough so as to be out of range of arrow strikes.

[Rob Wilson]

The solution there is then to use commercial knockoffs of the weapons in question and choose those that all share the same magazine type. Otherwise, one would just have to try to group people with the same magazine types in the same units as much as possible. Or just plain burst into manly tears.

I'm thinking the solution is still to force rifle standardization on the infantry, at least (excluding snipers).

Yep, personally I'd like it if we simply specify a Rifle that the Base armoury is stocked with, otherwise fuck only knows what we'll end up with and we certainly won't have enough spare parts to repair ours. After all it's supplied with Uniforms and Body Armour. You'll also note that the base lacks even a rudimentary Tool Shop, nor i there a facility for repairing the vehicles or medical and chemistry equipment. This base is the badly prepped! The first time something fails we are fucked.

I think Phong may need to rework the scenario otherwise we can't even make Muskets let alone a modern weapon. The idea of making the weapons a personal choice simply betrays the military shortcomings of the guy who thought this up in the first place. You give them a weapon and then train them how to use it properly, not have them turn up with a wild selection of weapons and hope for the best. I'd gladly trade in 3/4 of the useless vehicles for a decent armoury, Tool and Die Workshop and electrical test lab.

He gives us all this ammo and only 275 people can use the fucking stuff. No room for spares, no room for expansion of forces by even a modest amount.

[Cpt_Frank]

You'll also note that the base lacks even a rudimentary Tool Shop, nor i there a facility for repairing the vehicles or medical and chemistry equipment. This base is the badly prepped! The first time something fails we are fucked.

I've been repairing all kinds of technical stuff as hobby since I was a little child, so I could bring a variety of tools along with which I could fix most basic things on the cars and possibly the guns. That would possibly include a lifting block, but that thing's heavy so I won't be able to bring much more then.

[Cpt_Frank]

I think Phong may need to rework the scenario otherwise we can't even make Muskets let alone a modern weapon. The idea of making the weapons a personal choice simply betrays the military shortcomings of the guy who thought this up in the first place. You give them a weapon and then train them how to use it properly, not have them turn up with a wild selection of weapons and hope for the best. I'd gladly trade in 3/4 of the useless vehicles for a decent armoury, Tool and Die Workshop and electrical test lab.

He gives us all this ammo and only 275 people can use the fucking stuff. No room for spares, no room for expansion of forces by even a modest amount.

Hmm how about setting up a new scenario then that will better suit our needs and wishes? (I say more SD.net people and less SB.com)

[Typhonis 1]

will we have reloaing gear for rifle ammuntion and I agree with Rob lets set a standard rifle for the group and while we are at it we may want to flesh what the base has a bit more. We have 150 Hmmwvs what supplies of spare parts do we have for them?

[NecronLord]

Durandal, those aren't dragons, fortunately, as ME dragons have serious armour and metal mealting breath...

[Rob Wilson]

Rob, I have the concern that maybe that ISN'T a sure way to destroy the ring. Think of this:

1. We may be on an alternate ME where the ring-bearer will fail.
2. We may be on the real ME, and the story of his success in our universe was caused by another such cross-universal trip of somebody fleeing Sauron's power and writing a wistful epic of what might have been.
3. Our presence will screw up history and cause him to fail even if we don't do anything or commit mass suicide or something like that.

Those things considered - Nevermind the simple fact that I wouldn't want to trust my life to such minimal chances if we didn't know they were going to succeed in the first place (which is only due to book evidence from another universe written by a human who lived in that other universe) - I would rather go with a more precise and sure method.

Or, to put it simply: I'll trust that God will protect the side with the bigger battalions.

You do realise that nothing we have can even hurt Sauron! The only way to defeat him is destroy the ring and the only way to get it there is to focus his attention away from soemoen sneaking in. You go in there and try to fight him and you'll probably destroy his Orcs, but he's a God, he'll slaughter us if we're daft enough to go to him. If we try to kep the ring it will find it's way to him, one way or the other and all th time we wait for him to come to us, only strengthens him. Eventually he'll be strong enough to leave Mordor as the Shadow is cast over a larger area, he'll squeeze us into a smaller and smaller pocket, the magic of the Elves is already waining and when they leave we have nothing that can even slow him down.

Having big armies matters for nothing in this, they are but a sideline. A diversion for the narrow focussed to concentrate on whilst the Shadow grows stronger. I don't care if you took the entirity of the Earths Amred forces and went into Mordor, only one figure would walk out and he'd be looking for his Ring! you could drop a NUKE on him and because it wasn't th "nuke of toomanysylablesandapostraphies" it would do nothing. It took powerful magic to defet Sauron before, the combined magic of the Elven nation with the manpower of Man. That magic is no more, you cannot defeat Sauron with Force of arms, discipline or strategic manoeuvring. Only by focussing his attention elsewhere whilst the Ring is carried in in secret can you defeat him now.

If you destory the Continuity we know, how can we ever be sure tht the Ring will get to Orodruin? Take it ourselves? Unlikely as not one of us safe from it's ministrations and tempting. If we change the makeup of the land, that will change the Enemies plans by default and we end up risking everything for no reason!

We know the events chronicled work, so we should act to ensure they happen as written. We should be "offscreen", out of continuity with things happening to us that aren't mentioned in th books - that ensure that the things mentioned can happen. I've given examples already. That's my thought anyway.

[Rob Wilson]

You'll also note that the base lacks even a rudimentary Tool Shop, nor i there a facility for repairing the vehicles or medical and chemistry equipment. This base is the badly prepped! The first time something fails we are fucked.

I've been repairing all kinds of technical stuff as hobby since I was a little child, so I could bring a variety of tools along with which I could fix most basic things on the cars and possibly the guns. That would possibly include a lifting block, but that thing's heavy so I won't be able to bring much more then.

Well if you can fit set off industrial Dies and some precision steel working Lathes in your backpack go for it.

We have an experiencd Military Mechanic in the Warwolves (two including EmperorMing), and I can do most Armoury retooling and repair work, so the knowledge isn't a problem, it's the machines to do it that we need.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I just assumed there'd be an extensive tool shop as a necessity of keeping things repaired; how else could you keep it all running for potentially 19+ years, after all?

Did you check the SB thread?

[Cpt_Frank]

There is one thing that just came to my mind, though.
When we fight, there will inevitably be casualties on our side. Now if one of our popular persons dies, wouldn't that have a truly devastating effect on the morale? I mean, if we lose someone like Wong or Dalton that could do irreversable damage to our group.

[NecronLord]

You do realise that nothing we have can even hurt Sauron! The only way to defeat him is destroy the ring and the only way to get it there is to focus his attention away from soemoen sneaking in. You go in there and try to fight him and you'll probably destroy his Orcs, but he's a God, he'll slaughter us if we're daft enough to go to him. If we try to kep the ring it will find it's way to him, one way or the other and all th time we wait for him to come to us, only strengthens him. Eventually he'll be strong enough to leave Mordor as the Shadow is cast over a larger area, he'll squeeze us into a smaller and smaller pocket, the magic of the Elves is already waining and when they leave we have nothing that can even slow him down.

Having big armies matters for nothing in this, they are but a sideline. A diversion for the narrow focussed to concentrate on whilst the Shadow grows stronger. I don't care if you took the entirity of the Earths Amred forces and went into Mordor, only one figure would walk out and he'd be looking for his Ring! you could drop a NUKE on him and because it wasn't th "nuke of toomanysylablesandapostraphies" it would do nothing. It took powerful magic to defet Sauron before, the combined magic of the Elven nation with the manpower of Man. That magic is no more, you cannot defeat Sauron with Force of arms, discipline or strategic manoeuvring. Only by focussing his attention elsewhere whilst the Ring is carried in in secret can you defeat him now.

He's not invunrable, the elves can make weapons that hurt him, he is only a demi-god or deamon, I see no reason we can't persuade them to produce a clip of anti-sauron ammo.

[Rob Wilson]

I think Phong may need to rework the scenario otherwise we can't even make Muskets let alone a modern weapon. The idea of making the weapons a personal choice simply betrays the military shortcomings of the guy who thought this up in the first place. You give them a weapon and then train them how to use it properly, not have them turn up with a wild selection of weapons and hope for the best. I'd gladly trade in 3/4 of the useless vehicles for a decent armoury, Tool and Die Workshop and electrical test lab.

He gives us all this ammo and only 275 people can use the fucking stuff. No room for spares, no room for expansion of forces by even a modest amount.

Hmm how about setting up a new scenario then that will better suit our needs and wishes? (I say more SD.net people and less SB.com)

As much as I want to, it's something that is really up to the group. Right now i feel like the grumpy nitpicker that's spoiling everyones fun.
That said, we're a rationl, thinking board, we should have a scenario that allows us to demonstrate that to the full. It wouldn't take that much of change. We could even keep it in this thread, we just wait for Phong to repost a modified Scenario before moving on.

[phongn]

I assumed that there was a machine shop inside the base, along with the electrical power needed to keep it running.

As for why we only had a few hundred troops, I was lazy and decided only to modify the original scenario a little bit.

[Cpt_Frank]

As much as I want to, it's something that is really up to the group. Right now i feel like the grumpy nitpicker that's spoiling everyones fun.

Hey you make your points that's what this thread is for.
We can have the fun when someone writes a fic about this.

[Rob Wilson]

I just assumed there'd be an extensive tool shop as a necessity of keeping things repaired; how else could you keep it all running for potentially 19+ years, after all?

Did you check the SB thread?

Well if there's an extensive tool shop, why not a properly stocked Armoury as well?

And no I haven't checked the SB thread, as this is the SD.net BBS scenario which Phong altered, so using the SB thread would be meaningless.

[Rob Wilson]

I assumed that there was a machine shop inside the base, along with the electrical power needed to keep it running.

As for why we only had a few hundred troops, I was lazy and decided only to modify the original scenario a little bit.

*poke* Put an Armoury in then. That way we can expand forces without having to waste time with forges and various stages of incrementally upgraded fabrication techniques introduction to the native smithy's.

[Rob Wilson]

He's not invunrable, the elves can make weapons that hurt him, he is only a demi-god or deamon, I see no reason we can't persuade them to produce a clip of anti-sauron ammo.

Because the magic to do so no longer exists. Otherwise they'd just make another sword to kill him with and then put the Ring in Orodruin with no worries.