Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Formless »

Simon_Jester wrote:It's... a bit more complicated than that.
Bear in mind I'm a former catholic. I can go to any priest I want and confess whatever horrid felonious behavior I might have done and he will be required, required to keep his mouth shut about it. Sure, he will ask me to do some prayers and other rituals to cleanse the sin * but frankly those are just window dressing compared to actual good deeds and rehab. So when I hear that other Fundamentalist Christian groups have similarly extreme ideas about forgiveness, especially in light of what Jesus himself had to say on the issue, it never surprises me. Whitewashing over the flaws of their fellow Christians is just what they do, and how they made themselves powerful in the first place.

* I know, I once went to confess the sin of masturbation (if you can believe it) and the priest told me to say a bunch of Hail Marys. :lol: That sure cured me of my religion problem real fast (though it took a year to realize it)!
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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I found an article about this on the website of the ultraconservative World Magazine, and it's actually very critical of the Pearls (http://online.worldmag.com/2010/02/25/t ... -a-parent/). My parents have received World for years, and they adore it. So, I sent the link to my mother in an email. I'm really curious how she'll respond...
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Simon_Jester »

Formless wrote:Bear in mind I'm a former catholic. I can go to any priest I want and confess whatever horrid felonious behavior I might have done and he will be required, required to keep his mouth shut about it. Sure, he will ask me to do some prayers and other rituals to cleanse the sin * but frankly those are just window dressing compared to actual good deeds and rehab.
The craziness at work there has a lot to do with the artificial distinction they're drawing between sin (a spiritual concept) and crime (a real-world concept). For example, if a Catholic steals something and confesses to a priest, the priest won't call the police... but if the police find out on their own, it's not as if the Church is going to object to the thief going to jail on the grounds that they've confessed their sin.

Confessors don't talk, as a rule, but that doesn't make the people who confess immune to lawful punishment, nor does it require the church that practices confession to try and make itself a substitute for the legal system, with the notion that whatever you do is entirely acceptable once you're suitably penitent. You may still have to face the music in court, and that's outside their realm of authority.

And yes, this still leaves the rather absurd outcomes of confessors not reporting terrible crimes, and of levying punishments for things that aren't crimes at all.

But even given that absurdity, the evangelist Protestants take it a step farther, boosting themselves to even higher levels of absurdity and injustice, because they're endorsing behaviors that are outright criminal by modern standards (at least in child-rearing). They don't just need some way to wash away the sense that they have Sinned Against The Lord. They need to not get arrested for doing what they deem appropriate. And that requires an even higher degree of mutual "I forgive you because I am Christian so it is my duty not to let the Evil Secular Authorities get their hooks into you" than what the Catholic clergy practice with the confession.

At least they never expected the laity not to report criminal activities to the police, not as far as I know.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Confessors don't talk, as a rule, but that doesn't make the people who confess immune to lawful punishment, nor does it require the church that practices confession to try and make itself a substitute for the legal system, with the notion that whatever you do is entirely acceptable once you're suitably penitent. You may still have to face the music in court, and that's outside their realm of authority.
In general as well, they will try to convince the person to turn themselves in to the lawful authorities as part of being penitent. In some ways, this serves a very useful function. A person who would otherwise never turn themselves in may well be convinced to do so, with zero net cost to society (and no, not getting the priest to tell you anything is not a cost, because in a world without them no one ever would have said a damn thing).
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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And what happens when the person isn't convinced to turn himself in, or the person has sociopathic tendencies and actively uses the rite of confession to remove whatever shred of guilt they might feel and never turning themselves into the police? Nothing, because the priest can't talk about it. In my mind, the priest is responsible for letting that person continue to walk free.

And besides, you are right, the modern catholic church does not take it to the extremes of evangelicals. Its still a warped ideology, and supported in the bible too boot.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Formless wrote:And what happens when the person isn't convinced to turn himself in, or the person has sociopathic tendencies and actively uses the rite of confession to remove whatever shred of guilt they might feel and never turning themselves into the police? Nothing, because the priest can't talk about it. In my mind, the priest is responsible for letting that person continue to walk free.

And besides, you are right, the modern catholic church does not take it to the extremes of evangelicals. Its still a warped ideology, and supported in the bible too boot.
IIRC priests are obligated (just like doctors and mental health professionals) to report; imminent or known child abuse, homicide and suicide. The don't get a free pass because their ordained. Thats in Canada mind you, mileage may vary.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Hmmm. Well, I don't think that is historically the case, but I'll concede that Canada, once again, has a better system in place.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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And what happens when the person isn't convinced to turn himself in
You lose nothing, because without a priest that person would have kept his mouth shut.
or the person has sociopathic tendencies and actively uses the rite of confession to remove whatever shred of guilt they might feel and never turning themselves into the police?
Sociopaths dont feel guilt by definition.
Nothing, because the priest can't talk about it. In my mind, the priest is responsible for letting that person continue to walk free.
And without him there, you lose the chance of the person confessing to law enforcement. If the priest is obligated to turn such people in, then no one will talk to them, and the benefit is lost.
Its still a warped ideology, and supported in the bible too boot.
It really isnt actually....

Bear in mind, I am hardly one to defend religion, but even a broken clock can get something right twice a day, and the idea of a confessional is not a bad idea once the benefits and costs are taken together.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:In general as well, they will try to convince the person to turn themselves in to the lawful authorities as part of being penitent. In some ways, this serves a very useful function. A person who would otherwise never turn themselves in may well be convinced to do so, with zero net cost to society (and no, not getting the priest to tell you anything is not a cost, because in a world without them no one ever would have said a damn thing).
This is a strange cost/benefit analysis. The cost to society comes in the form of the existence of the Catholic priesthood in the first place. They take in an exorbitant amount of money which is spent on nothing else than the furtherance of their own existence, with little gain to society. They also actively work against the good of society in certain cases, such as their stance on birth control. The fact that a few otherwise hardened criminals may have a change of heart after a chat with a priest hardly seems worth it.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Channel72 wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:In general as well, they will try to convince the person to turn themselves in to the lawful authorities as part of being penitent. In some ways, this serves a very useful function. A person who would otherwise never turn themselves in may well be convinced to do so, with zero net cost to society (and no, not getting the priest to tell you anything is not a cost, because in a world without them no one ever would have said a damn thing).
This is a strange cost/benefit analysis. The cost to society comes in the form of the existence of the Catholic priesthood in the first place. They take in an exorbitant amount of money which is spent on nothing else than the furtherance of their own existence, with little gain to society. They also actively work against the good of society in certain cases, such as their stance on birth control. The fact that a few otherwise hardened criminals may have a change of heart after a chat with a priest hardly seems worth it.
I was only factoring in that one aspect of the Priest. That function could also be served by a secular confessor if you could conjure up the motivation for people to go.

As for not contributing anything... that describes most people.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Formless »

Except he wasn't considering the priesthood as a whole, just one specific practice and ideology of the priesthood which presumably can be replicated in a secular context.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:I was only factoring in that one aspect of the Priest. That function could also be served by a secular confessor if you could conjure up the motivation for people to go.
Okay, I understand. However, the idea of a "secular confessional" is interesting; how effective would such a thing really be without the spiritual Guilt, Sin and Judgment built into the framework of the Catholic Church? Without all that, the confession would probably be more like a therapy session.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Channel72 wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I was only factoring in that one aspect of the Priest. That function could also be served by a secular confessor if you could conjure up the motivation for people to go.
Okay, I understand. However, the idea of a "secular confessional" is interesting; how effective would such a thing really be without the spiritual Guilt, Sin and Judgment built into the framework of the Catholic Church? Without all that, the confession would probably be more like a therapy session.
It would be yes. As a matter of fact therapists are legally protected in the same way priests are for that very reason.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Personally, I think that is a brilliant idea. A place for people to go to speak openly; without judgement or a critical eye, and be listened, without either religious trappings or bills owed, sounds like an excellent tool for any society. The idea that somebody, anybody, is around to listen is exactly the sort of things a lot of people need.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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This is a strange cost/benefit analysis. The cost to society comes in the form of the existence of the Catholic priesthood in the first place. They take in an exorbitant amount of money which is spent on nothing else than the furtherance of their own existence, with little gain to society.
Frankly, why couldn't we extend the same kind of thinking to the adult entertainment industry? I can just about gaurantee you that the adult entertainment industry results in more wasteful spending on an anual basis ( literally billions of dollars that could have been put to any "noble cause" on the planet instead being pilfered off of horny men wacking off to either electronic screens or colored nudie magazines) than any religious priesthood, and probably carries with it far more inherent potential for abuse and suffering (human trafficking in sex slaves, substance addicted strippers and prostitutes, higher STD prevalance rates, etca, etca) than any "celibate" clergyman with access to young boys ever could to boot.

If you don't buy into the dogma of the Religious side, both industries can be seen as basically serving the same purposes. One offers "spiritual" emotional peace of mind, whereas the other provides hedonistic wish fulfillment. The continued existence of either can be construed as simply being a "unfortunate reality" of living in a free society.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Samuel »

Frankly, why couldn't we extend the same kind of thinking to the adultentertainment industry?
Fixed it for you. Video games, movies, books, TV- all these fall to the same logic.
probably carries with it far more inherent potential for abuse and suffering (human trafficking in sex slaves, substance addicted strippers and prostitutes, higher STD prevalance rates, etca, etca)
Human trafficing in sex slaves, higher STD rates and the like are a consequence of an unregulated market, just like tainted meat occurs when there is no FDA. The solution is to regulate the industry. As for drug addicted individuals involved in the business, it could be due to the required skills (aka you need to be young and attractive and being a drug addict is not a problem) or due to the lack of regulation.
If you don't buy into the dogma of the Religious side, both industries can be seen as basically serving the same purposes. One offers "spiritual" emotional peace of mind, whereas the other provides hedonistic wish fulfillment.
Not really. For starters, religion doesn't work for everyone and there are alternatives that can fill the same niche (or work better) with fewer social side effects.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 »

Fixed it for you. Video games, movies, books, TV- all these fall to the same logic.
That was actually my point. How is the Catholic Priesthood in any way more wasteful than any of these other excesses which we currently view as being essential to modern secular society?
Human trafficing in sex slaves, higher STD rates and the like are a consequence of an unregulated market, just like tainted meat occurs when there is no FDA. The solution is to regulate the industry.
Hardly, Europe (and the Netherlands in particular) actually have an enormous problem with illegal sex slaves being shipped in from former Soviet Republics and the Middle East.
Not really. For starters, religion doesn't work for everyone and there are alternatives that can fill the same niche (or work better) with fewer social side effects.
I fail to see how the same doesn't apply for porn. In any case, if you don't happen to like Roman Catholicism, you don't have to be one.

EDIT: It hardly like the Catholics are shoving anything down anyone's throats these days. This isn't the Dark Ages.

Even if you dislike their ideological stances having a presence in society, how is that really any different from an extremely conservative individual being forced to tolerate television programs or advertising which they find "offensive" or "obscene?"
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by K. A. Pital »

PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 wrote:Hardly, Europe (and the Netherlands in particular) actually have an enormous problem with sex slaves being shipped in from former Soviet Republics and the Middle East.
This is a consequence of corrupt hypercapitalism spreading into the former Soviet Union. There was no sex trafficking in the Soviet Union. The cultural customs of the Middle East which permit human (female) trade are also part of this repugnant collusion of capitalist principle of "everything is a commodity" with the Darkest Age practices of human enslavement.

Adult entertainment industry is not relevant to human trafficking. Russian adult film industry, for example, is neglible (compared to USA or W.Europe), whereas prostitution and slave trafficking in Russia and former Soviet Republics is much higher than that of the USA. This has to do with the nature of Russia's ugly predatory capitalism, which is the more uglier, the poorer is a given society.

Religiousity hardly has anything to do with that. The USSR was extremely atheist, no human trafficking. Russia now is far more religious, a religious resurgence of a huge magnitude, up to the Church forcing Chrstian lessons in common school. Human trafficking is very high.

Perhaps you confuse something. Religiousity and human trafficking are not correlated all that much.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 »

Well, that's a fine (if overtly Marxist) explanation of the situation which I don't agree with at all (on an economic basis at least). However, to each his own I guess. :lol:

In any case, the specifics of just why exactly there is human trafficking in Russia are irrelevant (though if we were going to go into this topic, massive economic and governmental collapse stemming from Soviet incompetence and ultimately resulting in wide-spread poverty and a rampant infestation of organized crime are the most blatantly obvious factors :wink: ).

The simple fact of the matter is that such abuses are happening, and that the potential will always remain for them to happen, while costing a whooooole lot of wasted money in the process.

I don't see anyone on here clamoring for the end of the sex industry on these grounds. Why the priesthood?
Religiousity hardly has anything to do with that. The USSR was extremely atheist, no human trafficking. Russia now is far more religious, a religious resurgence of a huge magnitude, up to the Church forcing Chrstian lessons in common school. Human trafficking is very high.
No offense, but...Huh?? When in the Hell did I say anything even remotely like that?

Gheez people, I know that religion is something of a touchy subject around here, but let's try and keep the "knee-jerk" conclusion jumping to a minimum, Mmmkay?
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Perhaps you confuse something. Religiousity and human trafficking are not correlated all that much.
He said nothing of the sort, but rather claimed (correctly) that europe, where prostitution etc is legal and regulated, has large problems dealing with the trafficing of humans out of russia and the middle east. The ugly side of having those industries legal is that it is possible to hide one's sex slaves within the very legal infrastructure designed to protect them.

In the US we dont have that problem with sex slaves as bad, but rather we have that issue with people (primarily women and children) who are sponsored to immigrate here, and are then turned into enslaved domestic servants. The trafficers tend to be something like "temp agencies" on paper. They provide proof that the immigrant has a job in the US lined up, and then the person disappears.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Channel72 »

PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 wrote:
Channel72 wrote:This is a strange cost/benefit analysis. The cost to society comes in the form of the existence of the Catholic priesthood in the first place. They take in an exorbitant amount of money which is spent on nothing else than the furtherance of their own existence, with little gain to society.
Frankly, why couldn't we extend the same kind of thinking to the adult entertainment industry? I can just about gaurantee you that the adult entertainment industry results in more wasteful spending on an anual basis ( literally billions of dollars that could have been put to any "noble cause" on the planet instead being pilfered off of horny men wacking off to either electronic screens or colored nudie magazines) than any religious priesthood, and probably carries with it far more inherent potential for abuse and suffering (human trafficking in sex slaves, substance addicted strippers and prostitutes, higher STD prevalance rates, etca, etca) than any "celibate" clergyman with access to young boys ever could to boot.
These two things are hardly comparable. The adult entertainment industry generates profits which are then taxed, thus contributing to society at large. The Catholic Church basically takes money away from society, and in return provides comfort to people at the cost of spreading ignorance. Also, apart from simply being unproductive, the Church is actually counter-productive to society; it spreads various harmful doctrines, such as the prohibition of birth control, it's stance on homosexuality, etc.

Furthermore, I'm highly skeptical about the strong correlation you mention between the (legal) adult entertainment industry, and illegal activities like human trafficking. Are you saying the underground sex-slave market in places like Southeast Asia would somehow be less of a problem if it weren't for Playboy and Penthouse? That's utterly ridiculous.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Liberty »

Huh. Just read some stuff about another Christian child raising method that has resulted in major problems. It's by a guy named Ezzo, and pretty popular. It's been around since the eighties, and criticized since the nineties. I actually have these books too, and I thought about trying it (they advocate a feeding schedule for infants), but the doctor at the hospital said I should use demand feeding so I did. I'm so glad I never more than cracked those books.
http://www.ezzo.info/Articles/brave.htm
The Brave New Baby
Does a new curriculum for families build up the parent-child relationhip, or put infants at risk?
by Thomas S. Giles
See also the companion article "Are Ezzos Culturally Insensitive?".
Reprinted with permission from the August 19, 1993 issue of Christianity Today.

Medical professionals around the country are sharply questioning a new Christian education curriculum, Preparation for Parenting, which is suspected of contributing to inadequate weight gain in some newborn infants.

On the market since 1987, the curriculum has gained a significant foothold in churches. The authors, Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo, estimate that about 500 churches in the United States are currently using their program and nearly 40,000 copies of the manual were sold in 1992. A Northridge, California - based firm, Growing Families International (GFI), distributes the Ezzos' curriculum and sponsors their radio program, aired at least monthly on about 90 radio stations across the country.

Yet, the marketing success has not come without controversy. Some physicians and nurses are concerned that the rigidity of the feeding program the Ezzos' advocate may put some newborn infants at risk of inadequate weight gain, especially in the first weeks after birth. In addition, the program has caused strong disagreements in a few churches, leading at least one to drop the Preparation for Parenting program.

The Ezzos wrote Preparation for Parenting to teach parents how to use "a biblical mindset" in raising children from infancy. "Working from a biblical mindset," they say, "automatically assumes a routine that leads to order."

The Ezzos say putting babies on a "parent-controlled" feeding schedule is a major part of establishing that order. They are strongly critical of "demand feeding,", the idea that newborn infants should be fed when they signal readiness.

The Preparation for Parenting manual, which sells with audiotapes for $29, says "Demand feeding is based on a philosophy that man is made in the image of God and now exists in the condition of depravity."

What went wrong?

A Southern California woman, Lori Raders, was 35 and about to have her first child when she started using Preparation for Parenting. She recently had moved to a rural area of California and could not afford to call her friends frequently to ask them about parenting. There were only 29 people at her church and few new parents nearby.

A friend obtained the Preparation for Parenting book and tape series for her through the mail. She and her husband listened to the tapes and went through most of the book "step by step."

"The parenting skills sounded so good," she says. "They have it biblically based and it seemed really easy."

Raders followed the program and put her baby on a feeding schedule, as recommended. When the time came to schedule her son's two-week checkup, she was unable to get an appointment with her doctor. Believing the baby was healthy, she assumed it would be okay to bring him in at three weeks.

"When my doctor saw him," Raders recalls, "he said, `He needs to be admitted right away into the hospital.' "

"I wasn't developing enough breast milk," Raders says. "His weight had dropped almost two pounds since birth and his temperature was 103. He was severely dehydrated.

"I was devastated. I felt like the stupidest person in the world. I thought that if I was breast-feeding according to their plan, my baby would be okay."

Raders is one of at least five mothers whose infants have experienced significantly low weight gain while they were following Preparation for Parenting guidelines.

Some health-care professionals say Preparation for Parenting may have contributed to the health problems of the Raderses' infant. They believe some advice on feeding in the curriculum is flawed and is likely to contribute to health problems in infants whose parents follow the guidelines to the letter.

The Ezzos also forbid debate in their classes and tell parents not to initiate conversations about curriculum outside class. Some professionals fear these rigid rules may keep parents from talking about the Ezzo program with their own doctors.

Gary Ezzo, who holds a master's degree in Christian education and is pastor of family ministries at Grace Community Church, in Sun Valley, California, insists there is no basis for linking his curriculum to health problems in babies.

Enough food?

Preparation for Parenting encourages parents to schedule feed their newborn infants every three to three-and-a-half hours from the first week after birth. However, according to several health-care professionals, schedule feeding a breast-fed baby too early may interfere with a mother's production of milk.

Jeannette Newman Velez, a certified lactation educator and registered dietitian specializing in public-health nutrition, says, "It is quite possible that a mother who adheres to the Ezzos' parent-controlled feeding schedule will experience a decrease in milk production due to inadequate breast stimulation."

Nancy Williams, a certified childbirth educator and lactation consultant, says the Ezzos fail to make provisions for cases in which their approach may not work, such as "sick, small-for-gestational-age, or prematurely born infants."

A California-based registered nurse who asked to remain anonymous to protect the identity of her patient has worked with one set of parents who used the curriculum. The parents brought in the child at three days and the baby checked out fine. Between that period and the two-week checkup, the mother spoke to the nurse twice.

The nurse said, "I told her she need to feed the baby when the baby was hungry." When the mother brought the baby in for its two-week checkup, the child weighed two pounds less than at birth. The nurse says, "The baby was in poor condition... Neurologically the baby was lethargic."

Ezzo insists GFI should not be held responsible for these or other health problems. "We will not assume responsibility for someone who does not read the book and listen to the tapes.

"There are so many variables that are involved in successful breast-milk production that you simply cannot state, 'They fed every three hours - that must be the problem.' "

Robert Bucknam, a Colorado pediatrician and coauthor with Ezzo of On Becoming BABYWISE, says, "In the cases where babies have had health problems, there were probably other causes."

Making changes

Ezzo told CT that the fourth edition of Preparation for Parenting, due out this fall, will have changes and clarifications.

Ezzo has asked Nancy Williams to write part of the new edition. He says she is "one of the top lactation consultants" in La Leche League. Ironically, in his third edition, Ezzo frequently refers to the La Leche League in negative terms, saying, "La Leche League International has led the charge" toward demand feeding, which he asserts is based on unbiblical principles.

While writing the current edition, Ezzo did not actively consult any lactation experts or other health-care professionals, except his wife Anne Marie, a registered nurse with a background in pediatric nursing.

Ezzo says health-care professionals have been exposed to his curriculum and "raised no red flags." CT also has contacted several doctors who use and endorse Preparation's principles.

Still, Ezzo is clarifying information regarding the amount of time parents should wait between feedings.

Desensitizing parents?

For some, the problem with the Ezzos' materials is not merely a matter of scheduled feeding. They also fear that Preparation's teachings on crying and its emphasis on "control" might lead to some parents being insensitive to some of their babies' other needs.

Preparation for Parenting tells parents to "learn how to assess your baby's cry in order to respond properly." It tells parents, when their baby cries, to "take time to listen, think, and pray."

At the same time, it includes statements like: "The mother or father who picks up the baby every time it cries lacks confidence in decision-making."

William Sears, a pediatrician and professor at University of Southern California School of Medicine, says, "They tell the mother that you do not respond until it's time. In time, that's going to develop a distance between that mother and baby. Those parents could miss medical problems."

Cliff Penner, a clinical psychologist who holds a master's degree in theology and writes a column for Marriage Partnership, says the materials overemphasize putting parents "in control."

"Psychologically, it sets up an adversarial system right from the start. There is an emphasis on discipline, law, punishment, judgment, on our position of power, and on control."

Focus on the Family conducted an evaluation of Preparation for Parenting and another book by GFI. A letter sent in May to Lisa Marasco, a concerned mother, says, "Although the Ezzos' work contains many worthwhile thoughts and suggestions... we believe there is reason to fear that some of their proposals - notably those having to do with controlled feeding schedules for infants - could actually result in child abuse if applied legalistically, inflexibly, and without regard for circumstances and the special needs of children."

The only way?

Jenni Beeman, a mother in Montana, had been demand-feeding her infant through his first two months. But then, she says, "he began to get a little hungrier and started to thin out, and I thought, I must be doing it wrong.

"I had similar problems with my first child and was beginning to receive pressure from family members to do something."

Members from her mother's church shared Preparation for Parenting materials and encouraged her to schedule feed her baby. Beeman also contacted GFI and received an introductory tape and newsletter. "They use compelling Scriptures in the newsletter," Beeman says, "to inspire families to raise children according to the Ezzos' program." After a month on the program, her baby lost two pounds. The parents discontinued scheduled feeding and began supplementing feedings with formula.

Scott Bauer, Church on the Way's executive director of ministries, says, "The printed materials were very dogmatic about a schedule-fed baby. Parent-directed feeding is the way, the Bible way, children are fed."

The Focus on the Family letter on the program notes, "The authors' claim that their particular program represents the one and only correct and biblical approach to parenting seems to us unnecessarily narrow."

Ezzo says he did not want to create the impression that his is the only biblical approach to parenting. "There's no biblical issue governing feeding babies. It's an area of freedom."

However, Preparation for Parenting paints another picture, saying, "Working from a biblical mindset and practicing demand-feeding can never be harmonized since the two are incompatible philosophies."

Use of Preparation for Parenting has led to strong disagreements in some churches. The curriculum was discontinued in one prominent Southern California church, and teachers in at least one other church toned down its language and modified some of its principles.

Preparation for Parenting was formerly taught through the Pasadena, California, Lake Avenue Congregational Church. But according to pastoral assistant Ray Syrstad, "strong differences of opinion among members of the children's ministry staff" led the church to discontinue using the materials in 1991.

The material currently are taught in other prominent Southern California churches, including Church on the Way, in Van Nuys, Calvary Church Santa Ana, and Grace Community Church.

Some of these churches endorse the curriculum provided that flexibility is strongly emphasized, something they say the curriculum itself does not do. At Church on the Way, Preparation for Parenting is taught in a modified format. "The principles of the Ezzos' material are biblical and practical," says Bauer. "We needed to modify the harshness and the dogmatic approach."

At Grace Community, where Ezzo is on staff, John MacArthur, senior pastor and well-known author, issued a "no comment" through his secretary, when asked his opinion of Preparation for Parenting.

Joan Wagner, former director of early childhood ministries at Lake Avenue Congregational Church, says that in person, the Ezzos encourage flexibility in their approach. "[But] their written materials do lend themselves toward a formula approach.

"I wouldn't want [Preparation for Parenting] just out there in the community because of the chance for excess and no chance to monitor those that might be given to that excess."

Ezzo claims that by the end of the year, 200,00 parents will have gone through Preparation for Parenting and that "99 and three-fourths of a percent" of the people who use his materials are "extremely successful."

However large the number of current or future users and however high their success rate, Preparation for Parenting may not be the choice for everyone.

Indeed, evidence suggest in some cases it may be the distinctly wrong choice. But, to borrow advice from Focus on the Family's letter, "ts principles should be implemented only in conjunction with generous measures of common sense, intuition, and natural parental affection."
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. - Benjamin Franklin
CarsonPalmer
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by CarsonPalmer »

Channel72 wrote: This is a strange cost/benefit analysis. The cost to society comes in the form of the existence of the Catholic priesthood in the first place. They take in an exorbitant amount of money which is spent on nothing else than the furtherance of their own existence, with little gain to society. They also actively work against the good of society in certain cases, such as their stance on birth control. The fact that a few otherwise hardened criminals may have a change of heart after a chat with a priest hardly seems worth it.
Well, for the purposes of this argument, we're assuming that priests exist. Its not a comparison of society without priests to a society with Catholic confession, but a comparison of a society with priests and confession to a society with priests and no confession.
PkbonupePeter_Kcos8
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 »

The adult entertainment industry generates profits which are then taxed, thus contributing to society at large.
Even then, however; you have to admit that the taxes being taken out of the AE industry are still miniscule compared to the profits it is taking in. The vast majority of these profits go to nothing other than making more pornography, and therefore perpetuating the system.

Additionally, its not like most (though I'm not necessarily sure all) religious institutions don't "give back" to society in the form of various charities and humanitarian missions.

As with AE, the real issue here lies in whether or not you think that one justifies the other.
The Catholic Church basically takes money away from society, and in return provides comfort to people at the cost of spreading ignorance. Also, apart from simply being unproductive, the Church is actually counter-productive to society; it spreads various harmful doctrines, such as the prohibition of birth control, it's stance on homosexuality, etc.
However, such arguments are ultimately only subjective. What of the Feminists who claim that pornography is vile in that it leads to disrespectful attitudes towards women, or anti-violence advocates who say that violent television spawns violence? Are these institutions "counterproductive" to society on those grounds?

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with any of these accusations. However, the fact of the matter remains that we are kind of throwing bricks in a glass house here. A lot of the arguments you are laying against the Priesthood could (rather hilariously) backfire against more secular institutions.
Furthermore, I'm highly skeptical about the strong correlation you mention between the (legal) adult entertainment industry, and illegal activities like human trafficking. Are you saying the underground sex-slave market in places like Southeast Asia would somehow be less of a problem if it weren't for Playboy and Penthouse?
I never claimed any kind of correlation between the existence of legal AE industries and their illegal counterparts(except in Europe, where such a correlation is a well known empirical truth given the fact that having legal prostitution shockingly makes it easier for mobsters to hide sex slaves). I simply stated that anywhere you have a "sex industry" there is going to be the potential for abuse and actions which many may consider to be detrimental to society at large.

I only even brought this up because I knew that some smartass was going to try and bring up the "but, but...Catholic Priests rape babies!!!" argument. :lol:
Simon_Jester
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Simon_Jester »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
This is a strange cost/benefit analysis. The cost to society comes in the form of the existence of the Catholic priesthood in the first place. They take in an exorbitant amount of money which is spent on nothing else than the furtherance of their own existence, with little gain to society. They also actively work against the good of society in certain cases, such as their stance on birth control. The fact that a few otherwise hardened criminals may have a change of heart after a chat with a priest hardly seems worth it.[/quote]I was only factoring in that one aspect of the Priest. That function could also be served by a secular confessor if you could conjure up the motivation for people to go.[/quote]Alternatively, priests don't have to be massively expensive. Catholic priests are.

Secular confession would be... tricky. The closest we have to that today is the psychiatric community, and they don't quite do the job, because of the implication that to go to them you have to have a mental illness. Most people are reluctant to admit that there's anything fundamentally wrong with their mind unless you spend their whole life drilling the idea that they do into them (which is, come to think of it, how Catholicism does it... sort of).

To replace the functional aspect of confessors, you need something that is at least as low-pressure as they are: you can talk to them, and they may drop some burden on you, but you don't have to either say or express the belief that you are a worse human being than the average person who comes in. Because even if you are, and you know it, the desire not to admit that you're a bad person will kill your willingness to get a load of your chest by admitting that you've done something wrong.

No one really wants to be judged by someone they know will be judgmental, and who won't be moved by whatever extenuating circumstances or special pleas they feel would justify their own actions. So at the very least you need the perception of sympathy between the confessor and the person confessing for the system to work.
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PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 wrote:That was actually my point. How is the Catholic Priesthood in any way more wasteful than any of these other excesses which we currently view as being essential to modern secular society?
The only real difference that comes to mind is that, unlike most of the entertainment industry, the Catholic Church advocates a lot of very counterproductive political positions, and uses its leverage over the conscience of its membership accordingly. Which hurts quite a lot of the countries that host it in a way that, say, the publishing industry does not.
Human trafficing in sex slaves, higher STD rates and the like are a consequence of an unregulated market, just like tainted meat occurs when there is no FDA. The solution is to regulate the industry.
Hardly, Europe (and the Netherlands in particular) actually have an enormous problem with illegal sex slaves being shipped in from former Soviet Republics and the Middle East.
Could you provide documentation that this problem is worse than it is in the countries where the "sex industry" is unregulated? Such as, say, the Eastern European and Middle Eastern countries the sex slavers are coming from?
Even if you dislike their ideological stances having a presence in society, how is that really any different from an extremely conservative individual being forced to tolerate television programs or advertising which they find "offensive" or "obscene?"
The only differences I see are:

1) That I can point to the problems their positions cause in a way that the ultraconservative cannot. I can point to overpopulation in Third World countries more effectively than the ultraconservative can point to degeneration of the public morals, unless they choose a circular definition of such.

2) The Catholic Church has more leverage over its members than most normal entertainment. It is far easier, psychologically, to ignore a random guy on TV than it is to ignore your parish priest- you wouldn't be in his flock in the first place if you didn't consider him a moral authority. Therefore, the consequences of the Church's interactions with politics are larger, therefore the costs are larger when the consequences are bad.
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PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 wrote:Well, that's a fine (if overtly Marxist) explanation of the situation which I don't agree with at all (on an economic basis at least).
Why do you disagree with it?

I mean, I disagree with the Marxist interpretation of a number of things, but I'm generally willing to man up and explain why I disagree with them, rather than merely claiming that it is "Marxist," with the implication that it is therefore wrong.
I don't see anyone on here clamoring for the end of the sex industry on these grounds. Why the priesthood?
From an atheist's point of view, most businesses actually sell something, barring the possibility of an elaborate scam. Pay a grocery store for food, you get it. Pay a used car dealership for a car, you get it. Pay a brothel for sex, you get it. In each case, the business is delivering some specific product in exchange for payment.

But, from the point of view of an atheist, a church delivers nothing, or nearly nothing, in exchange for payments of both money and obedience. It claims to deliver salvation, but the atheist does not believe that this thing exists, and therefore ignores it. It claims to deliver social goods, but the atheist often sees it spreading an equal and opposite set of social bads as well.

Thus, from the atheist's point of view, a church is like a grocery store that sells empty cans, or a used car dealership that sells cardboard automobiles, or a brothel that knocks its customers unconscious and robs them in their sleep. Not only are they taking your money, they aren't giving you anything back.

Such businesses are usually unpopular, which helps to explain why churches are so unpopular with atheists.
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PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 wrote:Even then, however; you have to admit that the taxes being taken out of the AE industry are still miniscule compared to the profits it is taking in. The vast majority of these profits go to nothing other than making more pornography, and therefore perpetuating the system.
...Surely profits are the money the industry has left over after paying the costs for continuing to make its own product.

Whether "perpetuating the system" is a problem in and of itself depends on whether you come to the table assuming the system is wrong. If you decided it was wrong before you did the cost-benefit analysis, of course keeping it around is a cost, rather than a benefit or a neutral thing. But that's doing things backwards.
However, such arguments are ultimately only subjective. What of the Feminists who claim that pornography is vile in that it leads to disrespectful attitudes towards women, or anti-violence advocates who say that violent television spawns violence? Are these institutions "counterproductive" to society on those grounds?
Can they show me the math?

I know the tobacco industry, for example, is "counterproductive," because it poisons hundreds of thousands of people to death every year with addictive drugs, and the payoffs of smoking are small compared to the high probability of dying horribly from lung cancer. People have proven this. I do not know the same is true of pornography or violent TV shows.
I never claimed any kind of correlation between the existence of legal AE industries and their illegal counterparts(except in Europe, where such a correlation is a well known empirical truth given the fact that having legal prostitution shockingly makes it easier for mobsters to hide sex slaves). I simply stated that anywhere you have a "sex industry" there is going to be the potential for abuse and actions which many may consider to be detrimental to society at large.
If it is so well known, surely you will have no trouble supplying me with evidence that it happens from an unbiased source.
I only even brought this up because I knew that some smartass was going to try and bring up the "but, but...Catholic Priests rape babies!!!" argument. :lol:
?

I don't remember anyone doing that. Perhaps you were mistaken in your "knowledge" that this was going to happen? Or have I missed something.
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