The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[JBG]

"That was what aircraft like the AC-130 did, they circled their target, mowing down the enemy. It was good, if unexpected, training for laFonteyn."

Which leads to the delicious speculation as to how an AC-130U would have gone.

However that would have been overkill. Lotsa things don't like being sprayed by Ma Deuce though.

[Raesene]

I do not foresee a good future for NEW ROME. We all know how the *first* one ended up -- and is Caesar gonna stay Caesar forever?

EDIT: in Rome, the only way someone at the top generally left power was to die in office, or be assassinated in a palace coup.

One of those options is gone due to Second Life -- who wants to wait for Caesar to die a second time? That might occur at the time of the heat death of the 1# universe. So that just leaves knifing him in the back. So expect assassination to take upticks in NEW ROME as more and more actual Romans are found, and try to start again with their old habits.

The consuls and other officials of the Republic were eleected for a one-year term in office. The same was true at first for the provicial governors (Proconsuls and Propraetors), but their time in office was prolonged to give them more time on station than on the road there.

If Caesar is wise, he will stand for election (and always wear the best body armour available)- given his history, past and recent, I doubt he'd have problems getting reelected every time for a few hundred years without severe misjudgment onf a situation.

Stuart, is the shooting of escaped sailors really SOP or just the rationale the crew gave to get revenge for Tel Aviv (and you giving the B-25 something to do) ? If the crew is in the water, they should be no danger anymore - and until then the aircraft could simple keep its distance as strafing runs expose it even more to AA-missiles. To sink it, I'd expect them to use a harpoon or two and stay away.

[MondoMage]

There went the INS Tekuma... but was the failure of the decoys to work another Take That at the INS, or just Ben-Shoshan playing a desperate hand that he'd already known was unlikely to work?

Modern technological innovations (indicated by the "cell phone technology" reference) has made it very, very difficult for a decoy to actually decoy a seeker. Until someone comes up with a better decoy, that is. However, the Tekuma didn't have anything better, and what they did have wasn't good enough.

[Stuart]

Stuart, is the shooting of escaped sailors really SOP or just the rationale the crew gave to get revenge for Tel Aviv (and you giving the B-25 something to do) ? If the crew is in the water, they should be no danger anymore - and until then the aircraft could simple keep its distance as strafing runs expose it even more to AA-missiles. To sink it, I'd expect them to use a harpoon or two and stay away.

Unless the submarine strikes its flag, yes. Or at least it used to be, nobody has sunk a submarine by air attack for a very long time. You're quite right about Harpoon, that's why the missile was originally designed (and how it got its name). The weapon was originally designed to give ASW aircraft a means of finishing off a surfaced submarine without getting dangerously close. The fear always was that a couple of men could use the scene of the crew abandoning ship to get a manpack SAM out of an arms locker and take a pot-shot at the MPA. ASW aircraft are so few and so expensive that it might be considered a chance worth taking. Russian Project 877 submarines have an arms locker in the sail for exactly that reason so its not a theoretical argument. There was also the argument that a submarine might fake a surface/abandon ship/sink routine to deceive the aircraft into leaving it alone. Jettisoning wreckage, oil and bodies was a standard ploy so it isn't that far-fetched. So, even in WW2 the doctrine was to keep atatcking until the submarine was very clearly sunk. There was also the argument that aircraft can't take prisoners.

Having said that, it might have been policy to strafe a sub crew abandoning their boat until they struck their flag but it never sat well with aircrew and they tended to look for excuses not to do it (much like strafing Japanese supply columns using elephants in South East Asia, aircrew were ordered to do it but they tried to find excuses not to shoot up the elephants). Then again, people who had seen the aftermath of a U-boat attack tended not to be well-disposed to the survivors of a sunken U-boat. It all goes to illustrate that war is not a nice activity, very bad things happen.

[Jamesfirecat]

Looks like we're about to find out if that arch Angel the traitor talked to lives up to his word.

If he's smart he'll make sure that every body on board the sub EXCEPT his cats paw ends up in hell leaving humanity with no way to punish the guilty and a whole bunch of innocents whose blood will be bayed for by countless humans across the globe.

Of course the angel who made that promise may be in no condition to live up to it now as he might have gotten picked up in Micheal's sweeps.....


Interesting things will happen at the Minos Gate one way or another.....

[tricksterson]

Referring back to the previous chapter when Michael said that all the angels in the conspiracy had been captured or identified was he referring to both conspiracies or just the Second?

And yeah, SOP or not I'm sure revenge for Tel Aiv factored in there somewhere. Although when the Tekuma's crew finds out what they did they may long for eternal torment.

[Dave]

I don't suppose we can go back and update the story, can we?

Latest Sarah Palin Speech Opens Sixth Seal

IDAHO FALLS, ID—Speaking unto an audience of anti-immigration advocates, global-warming deniers, and members of the Tea Party Nation, former Alaska governor and vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin gave forth utterances Monday that reportedly opened the sixth seal of the Book of the Apocalypse.

"Wow, it's good to be here, just shootin' the breeze with a bunch of real, hardworking Americans who love their freedom," said Palin, her words echoing across the Idaho Falls Civic Auditorium as mighty tremors caused great unrest beneath the land and the sea. "So are the little guys like you and me gonna fight these Washington insiders with their big government agenda? You betcha we are!"

And lo, there was then a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair; and the moon became as blood; and "gosh" was spoken repeatedly; and the stars of heaven fell upon the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken by a mighty wind.

These disturbances reportedly went unnoticed by the audience, however, as their thunderous applause drowned out the sound of the foretold cataclysm.

"This Tea Party movement just goes to show ya that America is ready for another revolution," Palin said as things long ago divined came finally to pass. "Who do you think is gonna stand up for the freedoms promised by our Founding Fathers? Folks like us, or some socialist professor of constitutional law in the Oval Office?"

It was then, witnesses claim, that there was a tearing of the heavens, and the skies receded as does a scroll when it is rolled up, and anecdotes about everyday middle-class Alaskan families were enunciated in down-to-earth tones.

"That's right, partner," Palin said, as every mountain and island moved from its place, and flames overtook the lakes and the rivers and the seas. "Thanks, but no thanks."

According to biblical scholars, the opening of the seven seals described in the Book of Revelation will usher in the End Times, the Tribulation, the reign of the Antichrist, and the eventual salvation of the 144,000 chosen few. It is thought that the sixth seal's opening will bring about the full fury of God, leading ultimately to the Day of Wrath.

"Admittedly, this is not what we were expecting," said Robert Harwood, a doctor of divinity at the University of Cambridge. "The Bible speaks of a beast with seven horns and seven eyes, not a raven-haired woman from the north who knows not what foolishness she speaks of."

"Still, there's no denying it," Harwood added. "The End of Days is upon us."

One member of the crowd not torn apart by swarming harpies told reporters he feared living in a country where his daughters would grow up speaking Spanish and not be allowed to carry handguns.

"Palin for president!" Bill Coleman, 37, of Topeka, KS chanted, and the stench of flesh rotting in the belly of Satan rose up, and the stench of death rose up. "Sarah Palin for president!"

"Small town folks—the folks who grow our food, run our small businesses, and teach our kids—are getting pretty riled up by President Obama's big socialist ideas," Palin spoke as the stage upon which she stood was rent apart by an unseen hand, opening as unto a great chasm, whose gaping void she narrowly escaped by clinging to the podium.

"Uh…how's that hopey-changey stuff workin' out for ya?" Palin added.

Chaos and disorder then spread across hill and valley to every corner of the earth, eyewitnesses reported, and as the minions of the Antichrist prepared for their millennium of world dominion, even the teeming masses of heathens could not in their hearts deny that the final phase of Armageddon was close at hand, and that you're darn right Joe Six-Pack pays too many taxes already.

The Antichrist, whose true identity remained unknown as of press time, will reportedly come to torment the sinners of humanity as soon as the seventh and last remaining seal is opened.

"I'm so happy that we've got the liberal left running scared," Palin concluded. "Because whatever the TV pundits might want you to think, from where I'm standing, the future looks really good."

[JBG]

I do not foresee a good future for NEW ROME. We all know how the *first* one ended up -- and is Caesar gonna stay Caesar forever?

EDIT: in Rome, the only way someone at the top generally left power was to die in office, or be assassinated in a palace coup.

One of those options is gone due to Second Life -- who wants to wait for Caesar to die a second time? That might occur at the time of the heat death of the 1# universe. So that just leaves knifing him in the back. So expect assassination to take upticks in NEW ROME as more and more actual Romans are found, and try to start again with their old habits.

I don't agree. There are too many recent second lifers - often actively recruited - to allow old roman habits to dominate. Plus the scene with the battle scarred daemon treated as an honoured fellow citizen. Julius may end up with a daemon recruitment program as affective as for second life combat soldiers etc. That may be significant.

[GrayAnderson]

I do not foresee a good future for NEW ROME. We all know how the *first* one ended up -- and is Caesar gonna stay Caesar forever?

EDIT: in Rome, the only way someone at the top generally left power was to die in office, or be assassinated in a palace coup.

One of those options is gone due to Second Life -- who wants to wait for Caesar to die a second time? That might occur at the time of the heat death of the 1# universe. So that just leaves knifing him in the back. So expect assassination to take upticks in NEW ROME as more and more actual Romans are found, and try to start again with their old habits.

I don't agree. There are too many recent second lifers - often actively recruited - to allow old roman habits to dominate. Plus the scene with the battle scarred daemon treated as an honoured fellow citizen. Julius may end up with a daemon recruitment program as affective as for second life combat soldiers etc. That may be significant.

Yeah...I think the modern people are going to provide enough electoral ballast (not to mention tendencies against coups) to avoid too much trouble. The "original" Romans simply aren't going to ever have the numbers.

There's also the fact that a few of the bigger troublemakers (Nero, anyone?) might simply be disbarred from office if they're even allowed to obtain citizenship.

[Loates]

Looks like we're about to find out if that arch Angel the traitor talked to lives up to his word.

If he's smart he'll make sure that every body on board the sub EXCEPT his cats paw ends up in hell leaving humanity with no way to punish the guilty and a whole bunch of innocents whose blood will be bayed for by countless humans across the globe.

Of course the angel who made that promise may be in no condition to live up to it now as he might have gotten picked up in Micheal's sweeps.....


Interesting things will happen at the Minos Gate one way or another.....

I think it is safe to assume Angels do not keep their word. Yahweh didn't, Michael hasn't, why should any of the others be different?

Andy L

[Baughn]

While it would be minor, it should serve the angel's purposes to create confusion and deny humanity information by sucking said cat's paw into heaven. This would have to be played off against the cost of doing so, which we don't know but is likely to be minor considering the number of artists and such Michael's acquired. On the other hand, we don't know how high up in the hierarchy the angel is.

What then happens to the man is a different story. He could very well end up in heaven only to be immediately rekilled.

[Jamesfirecat]

Looks like we're about to find out if that arch Angel the traitor talked to lives up to his word.

If he's smart he'll make sure that every body on board the sub EXCEPT his cats paw ends up in hell leaving humanity with no way to punish the guilty and a whole bunch of innocents whose blood will be bayed for by countless humans across the globe.

Of course the angel who made that promise may be in no condition to live up to it now as he might have gotten picked up in Micheal's sweeps.....


Interesting things will happen at the Minos Gate one way or another.....

I think it is safe to assume Angels do not keep their word. Yahweh didn't, Michael hasn't, why should any of the others be different?

Andy L

I was expecting that Angels would keep their word when it works out well for them in the end. If the traitor winds up in humans hands then we can both sort this entire mess out and make it clear where the blame belongs, and grill him for information on the angel he talked with or heaven in general and it might give us another piece or two of the puzzle that we need.

If he and only he gets pulled into heaven then humanity is left with the diplomatic nightmare of capturing an the crew of a sub that tried to nuke five human cities, ended up sucessfully nuking one of them, and yet they're all innocent unwitting dupes. Though of course some of them they may make that easy for us by committing second life suicide once they find out just what they helped do even if they didn't know it at the time.

In other words, I don't expect angels to be trustworthy, but I do expect them to act like rational agents who seek to promote their own best interests.... or at least that's how I expect the ones who aren't marching directly to Yahweh's beat to act....

[GrayAnderson]

Yeah. That's how Michael acts. The others, on the other hand...who knows.

[Darth Yan]

Cybele was able to strongarm yahweh and satan into not mistreating their followers. I think they might have planned the bombing of tel aviv (or one of two groups of others.)

[Saint_007]

Dear Stuart,

Please tell me that Lt. Yitzhak wakes up to find himself in the hands of the HEA? And please, please, pretty PLEASE tell me they get to make him sing like a little birdie...

[Chris OFarrell]

Well if he shows up, they'll get the truth soon enough.

If he DOESN'T show up, his last words and the fact that he aint here will be a clear enough point in of itself.

Still, the next chapter is going to be interesting. All the Submariners finding they have woken up in holding cells, and the CO waking up to find he is sitting in a room with about thirty flag officers sitting across from him wanting to ask 'some questions'.

Of course, its just as possible that the higher powers will take the ENTIRE crew off to make sure none of them get interogated.

I'm also guessing a salvage operation will be launched sooner rather then later for the sub, its still probably loaded up with nukes after all, in rather shallow water...

[MondoMage]

Dear Stuart,

Please tell me that Lt. Yitzhak wakes up to find himself in the hands of the HEA? And please, please, pretty PLEASE tell me they get to make him sing like a little birdie...

As satisfying as that would be, reader-wise, if whichever angel it was that managed him (do we know for sure who it was?) has any sense at all, they won't let that happen. I'm not sure what the mechanism is that allows angels like Michael to cherry-pick from the steam of dead souls before they hit Minos, but if it were me I'd do everything in my power to make sure that Yitzhak doesn't wind up in humanity's hands. Betraying him and allowing mankind to get their hands on him might make further recruitments a bit more difficult, because you can all but guarantee that he'll become a PR showpiece. "They promised me salvation, and all I got was a one-way trip to Hell! Damned angels!" True, he might be dismissed as a loony, but it's still a blow against their credibility amongst the religious set that are still alive - although with that bunch maybe it wouldn't matter anyways.

And what's to say that even if he's "rescued" from going to Hell, he won't find a worse fate in Heaven? That I would find to be equally satisfying.

[Lagmonster]

If I were batting for the Angels, I'd pull the *entire* sub crew to Heaven, massacre the lot of them, and call it a day. If heaven really can intercept specific souls, that's a tremendous tactical advantage in terms of intelligence against First Life humans. Among other things, they can deny humanity specific people in their ranks who would otherwise benefit them, such as politicians, military commanders, etc.., all for the cost of human turncoat infiltrators and whatever means they have to re-route souls.

[Jamesfirecat]

If I were batting for the Angels, I'd pull the *entire* sub crew to Heaven, massacre the lot of them, and call it a day. If heaven really can intercept specific souls, that's a tremendous tactical advantage in terms of intelligence against First Life humans. Among other things, they can deny humanity specific people in their ranks who would otherwise benefit them, such as politicians, military commanders, etc.., all for the cost of human turncoat infiltrators and whatever means they have to re-route souls.

There's one small problem with their plan, if humans start noticing how important people they need/want don't show up in Hell, when they die in ordinary ways, then it probably wouldn't take them that long to figure out the obvious conclusion, that if they're not in Hell they must be in Heaven. Then they might be able to have kitten or some other psychic home in on them long enough to open a portal next to them, the same way we managed to open portals next to those in Hell.

Yes the angels could just kill the people as soon as they showed up, but second life humans are tough bastards, is it really worth the risk of letting humans into Heaven to try and pull off a move like that?

Also, what if Heaven only has on "entrance" to it from Earth for second lifers like Hell. Micheal may be able to convince he angles who are guarding it to look the other way while he sneaks off with his musicians, but that's because he's God's second in command. I doubt these lower down Angles in the other conspiracy will have the kind of clout to pull that kind of move off, and I doubt Yahweh would look kindly upon anyone letting humans into Heaven, even if it is for tactically intelligent reasons.....

[GrayAnderson]

You know, you do raise an interesting point...I forget, but had Dawkins met kitten before he died? I don't think so, yet she was able to home in on him, and it's been long enough since I read that chapter that I can't recall the mechanism that allowed it.

The other thing is that Mikey could simply set things up so they come out of that gate and go right back in (and, as per Stuart's notes, basically evaporate). By the time the humans figure out someone is missing, they no longer exist.

One other thing...though I know the odds of it working are fairly small, would a brute force attack of some sort attempting to find Heaven (or any other bubble worlds) be at least theoretically possible, or are we looking at a case where these bubble worlds occupy about the space of a planet amid a huge amount of "nothing"? And...come to think of it, if you could open it, what would a gate into that nothing-ness find if you sent a probe in?

[Simon_Jester]

The real danger, as I see it, is if bubble universes exist wall to wall throughout the multiverse, so that any possible coordinate in N-dimensional space corresponds to a bubble universe.

In that case, opening portals at random could be extremely dangerous. Sure, the two universes we've seen so far don't contain anything we can't handle, but there are some disturbing possibilities. For example, universes where biological creatures have evolved (or been engineered with) even more extreme physical abilities than "Fluffy" and "Wuffles" show, possibly including the one where "Leviathan" in Stas Bush's side-story comes from. Imagine a Uriel-like ability to project a 'death field', scaled up into something the size of Fluffy.

Or universes that have their own technologically savvy inhabitants, comparable to us but with some (or all) of the advantages of position and biology angels and demons enjoy. Or universes with occupants more advanced than we are easily prepared to comprehend- see the preachings of the Singularitarians for reference.

We don't want to open a portal and have Cthulhu come out, especially not if he invites his twelve siblings and fifty billion nieces and nephews to come through with him.

Granted that this is (hopefully!) a low-probability event. But if there's a large possible search space, then searching it randomly for a specific dimension without knowing the probability of accidentally stumbling on something tougher than we are is... again, a bad idea.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah. The demons and Yahweh due to their primitive social order and strong belief in their superiority probably did this universe-piercing for kicks; never realizing the true danger of such ventures.

Humans, unlike them, are not as dumb, neither do humans believe they are the strongest guy on the block.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. The demons and Yahweh due to their primitive social order and strong belief in their superiority probably did this universe-piercing for kicks; never realizing the true danger of such ventures.

Humans, unlike them, are not as dumb, neither do humans believe they are the strongest guy on the block.

Well... let's wait on that one.

I'd say it's still within the realm of possibility that humanity in this story will come down with the modern sense of the word "hubris," believing themselves to be gods because they beat the demons and angels so easily, just as the demons and angels believed themselves to be gods because they beat up Stone Age humans so easily. So far, we are the strongest guy on the block, and the fact that Hell and Heaven could go universe-exploring at all without getting crushed suggests that the average level of opposition we'd face in a new bubble universe is on their level, at most.

We may dismiss the possibility of running into anything significantly worse than them, or handwave it with a "nukes will solve everything!" Which... they might, or they might not.

[Atlan]

Yeah. The demons and Yahweh due to their primitive social order and strong belief in their superiority probably did this universe-piercing for kicks; never realizing the true danger of such ventures.

Humans, unlike them, are not as dumb, neither do humans believe they are the strongest guy on the block.

Well... let's wait on that one.

I'd say it's still within the realm of possibility that humanity in this story will come down with the modern sense of the word "hubris," believing themselves to be gods because they beat the demons and angels so easily, just as the demons and angels believed themselves to be gods because they beat up Stone Age humans so easily. So far, we are the strongest guy on the block, and the fact that Hell and Heaven could go universe-exploring at all without getting crushed suggests that the average level of opposition we'd face in a new bubble universe is on their level, at most.

We may dismiss the possibility of running into anything significantly worse than them, or handwave it with a "nukes will solve everything!" Which... they might, or they might not.

Leading elements of Humanity are becomeing painfully aware that Humans, Demons and Angels are descendant from one baseline. And that baseline is closer to us than the others. In fact, everything points to a fair bit of genetic engineering.

And if someone engineered Angels and Demons out of Human DNA, then chances are those guys are still around. Chances are that back they were as far above us as we are rigt now, as we are technologically above the Demons. This is not a happy thought, compounded by the fact that we still have no idea what it is exactly that makes human souls get new bodies suitable for Heaven/Hell upon death. It might all be some eleborate experiment...

[Simon_Jester]

This is all reasonable and I agree with it.

But people do strange and often foolish things when they start winning wars easily. "Victory disease" is very real.

For that matter, we might simply be overconfident in our ability to make peaceful contact with potential rivals stronger than ourselves and underestimate the possibility that they'll be too alien to talk to or aggressive enough to attack us as soon as we get their attention.