SG Atlantis/WH40k Force Substitution: IoM on Atlantis

[Bilbo]

Given that tech-priests are ALSO really, really good at reverse-engineering, that should not be too much of a problem - specifically since we know the reverse-engineering capabilities of (RL)earth and can therefore conclude that this tech was not too difficult.
Assuming that they have specialists for Archeo-tech (specializing in ancient artifacts) and xeno-tech (alien), they have well-versed specialists for such problems.

Genetic keys are nothing special in 40K - they are a common safety feature (available even for gang leaders in underhives), and while they are considered safe against any "normal" foe, it is explicitly mentioned that the Adeptus Arbites and Mechanicus can crack them with ease, should they be bothered to do so.
If they can find out what gene is required, they should be able to just implant it into themself or some servitors. However, i do not know by what means they could find out which gene they need.
It is possible that they can crack it otherwise, but i have nothing solid to present here.

Meanwhile, 40K has a much higher techbase than Earth.
Their power production is on equal footing with Star Wars and regulary employed in small-scale devices, too.
The different technology might compose problems, but they are generally able to deal with highly alien tech unless it involves necron dimensional technology (anything necron, basically) or Eldar warp technology.

Question:
How much energy does a ZPM actualyl put out?
Depending on the answer, it might just be feasible for 40K to procude the necessary energy by other means.

Exactly what point of reference is the 40K going to use to crack the code?

[Bilbo]

Jackson DID have a point of reference. All those ancient Earth languages that WERE based off the Ancient language.

Exactly what language on Earth acts as a point of reference for written Ancient. A language written using what appear to be completely random computer generated block patterns. These patterns are so random looking that Jack O'Neil didnt even know what is up on a photo of the Ancient language (Ground Hog Day). Also, Ancient letters are so random that as proven on Dakara when they first opened up the control room for the super weapon the letters and words they formed made silly but readable sentances when read upside down.

Unless they get some help there is no way in hell a group of 40K grunts even with their wundertech is going to get anywhere in Atlantis.

The controls wont respond to them, and even if they did much like the first time the Atlantis team arrived the city wont rise and they will all drown. The only reason that reality was altered was due to Shep and his ancient gene activating the Puddle Jumper with the timemachine in it.

This is a lose lose for 40K.

[Batman]

Jackson DID have a point of reference. All those ancient Earth languages that WERE based off the Ancient language.

Exactly what language on Earth acts as a point of reference for written Ancient.

I couldn't possibly care less. The very fact that they DID manage to decode Ancient eventually DOES mean that the languages DID give them the hints they needed to go there.

A language written using what appear to be completely random computer generated block patterns. These patterns are so random looking that Jack O'Neil didnt even know what is up on a photo of the Ancient language (Ground Hog Day)

You mean like he likely ALSO wouldn't know what he was looking at if it were a photo of recent hebrew? Jack O'Neill other when possessed by Ancient knowledge or some alien entity or other doesn't know BEANS about ancient languages.

Also, Ancient letters are so random that as proven on Dakara when they first opened up the control room for the super weapon the letters and words they formed made silly but readable sentances when read upside down.

Err-the very fact that they WERE readable means they WEREN'T random. Also, the very fact that on numerous occasions the SG/SGA teams DO manage to decipher Ancient writing means that it is NOT left behind in a random undecipherable format.

Unless they get some help there is no way in hell a group of 40K grunts even with their wundertech is going to get anywhere in Atlantis.

Hogwash. The 40K guys may need a lot more of a head start and the OP setup may not give them the equipment to do so but GIVEN reasonable equipment they absolutely CAN.

The controls wont respond to them, and even if they did much like the first time the Atlantis team arrived the city wont rise and they will all drown.

Copout. You know fully well that's NOT what this is about.

[Bilbo]

The SGA team had access to years of data gained from research as well as information given by the Tokra and the Asgard. We have no idea how much was independent research and how much was given to them. So to say Daniel Jackson did it so anyone could is not accurate.

It is also not accurate to say there must be some reference to ancient earth languages since the SGC figured it out since the SGC did have access to other knowledge sources beyond homegrown Earth sources.

Drowning is not a cop out. It has been argued here that not having the ATA gene is not a limiter. I am merely pointing out that it is the ultimate limiter. Anyone who entered Atlantis other than a group of people with the ATA gene will die of drowning.

[Batman]

Drowning IS a copout. This scenario is quite obviously about a 40K force taking over Atlantis without drowning in the process.

[Bilbo]

Drowning IS a copout. This scenario is quite obviously about a 40K force taking over Atlantis without drowning in the process.

Okay take away the drowning. Lets list the remaining problems.

1. Computer wont turn on.
2. A stargate is a what?
3. No specially designed equipment and interfaces made to hook to Ancient technology
4. No ATA gene.
5. No replacement power supplies to replace the ZPM.
6. Do the doors even open since computer stays down?
7. Ancient? What is ancient?
8. Everything is so small (arent space marines huge compared to normal humans?)

I am sure there are other things I am missing. Everything comes down to gear. If they dont have the right gear then odds are they starve to death on Atlantis in a few weeks. With the right equipment to do everything then what is the point. Then its just a swap of the SGA team for a team of stronger more technologically advanced humans.

[Crom]

I neglected to be more specific about the equipment available to the WH40k force. I was imagining that they were similarly equipped as the SGA team, they arrive packed & stocked as an expeditionary force that may have no further contact with their point of origin, sent to investigate alien technology. The Inquisitor has a full retinue, the Techpriests are a mixed group of specialists.

And yeah, I was assuming they didn't drown.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

1. Computer wont turn on.

I haven't watched the Atlantis pilot in awhile so forgive my memory, but why won't the computer turn on? Why does this matter?

2. A stargate is a what?

A plucky group of USAF personnel and a discredited archeologist figured it out. Why can't a group of highly-equipped specialists who have spent 10,000 years mucking around with archeo- and xenotechnology do it?

3. No specially designed equipment and interfaces made to hook to Ancient technology

A techpriest, especially one accustomed to dealing with xenotechnology, has all manner of mechadendrites, cybernetic interfaces, and Emperor knows what else. If Bob the USAF airman can plug the tech into his Intel tablet, I'm sure a techpriest will manage.

4. No ATA gene.

As I pointed out earlier, genetic manipulation is no obstacle to 40k personnel. That kind of tech is readily available for anyone with the wealth and inclination to deal with the Adeptus Mechanicus.

5. No replacement power supplies to replace the ZPM.

Obviously, part of the challenge of the scenario is going to involve the team trying to find a new one.

6. Do the doors even open since computer stays down?

There are Space Marines on the team. They don't use doors, they make them.

7. Ancient? What is ancient?

Unknown alien languages aren't exactly something foreign to agents of the Ordo Xenos. To paraphrase O'Neill, this ain't their first barbeque.

8. Everything is so small (arent space marines huge compared to normal humans?)

There are only six Space Marines on the team. Even if the entire team was "huge", this strikes me as a rather absurd objection. All the hallways in Atlantis are quite roomy.

[Chris OFarrell]

Tech preists are good at reverse enginnering? They'll easily figure all this out?

Um, no.

The AdaptMech are so dogmatic, they'll probably take five years before they even TRY to touch any 'unconsecrated Xenos tech', let alone try to actually STUDY it. There are expections to this, but the vast majority of the preisthood are NOT the kind of people who you want with you to try and study alien technology. The vast majority of them don't come close to following -or even accepting- the scientific method, most of those that do are either branded as Heritics and shot, or work in secret very high up on Mars -though as 'Mechanium' shows, even THAT aint enough.

I have extreme doubts about how well a small group is going to do, cut off from the resources of the Imperium. They have neither the training, the supplies nor the understanding of the technolgogy which Earth did in 'Rising' to last until reinforcements arrived. They'll utterly frag any Wraith on the ground, but they just don't have a chance in trying to actually use anything on Atlantis.

[Serafina]

Tech preists are good at reverse enginnering? They'll easily figure all this out?

Um, no.

The AdaptMech are so dogmatic, they'll probably take five years before they even TRY to touch any 'unconsecrated Xenos tech', let alone try to actually STUDY it. There are expections to this, but the vast majority of the preisthood are NOT the kind of people who you want with you to try and study alien technology. The vast majority of them don't come close to following -or even accepting- the scientific method, most of those that do are either branded as Heritics and shot, or work in secret very high up on Mars -though as 'Mechanium' shows, even THAT aint enough.

I have extreme doubts about how well a small group is going to do, cut off from the resources of the Imperium. They have neither the training, the supplies nor the understanding of the technolgogy which Earth did in 'Rising' to last until reinforcements arrived. They'll utterly frag any Wraith on the ground, but they just don't have a chance in trying to actually use anything on Atlantis.

As i explained above, the IoM HAS teams capable of doing pretty much just what they are required to do here - operating without further support for a long time, figuring out alien technology and deciphering alien languages.
Since this is a force substitution, it is reasonable to assume that the replacement consists of equal specialists - just like we would replace SW special forces with ST special forces.

Besides, the AM is not that dogmatic - they are regulary trying to gain acces to necron tombs, they have analyzed Eldar, Tau and other alien technology and they have used the Blackstone fortresses as important fleet bases, despite their Eldar origin.
While lower ranking AM-members are more like RL-technicians ((knowledge how to operate and repair tech), higher-ranked Techpriests are comparable to Engineers (the knowledge above plus the understanding how it works and how to build&design more) and the high ranks are that plus scientists,.

Given that they only have to operate the technology and not rebuild it, their capabilities should be more than enough.
If the replacement consists of an Explorator-team, then they would also be highly willing to study the technology.

The Adeptus Mechanicus appears (and arguably is) dogmatic because:
-Their technology works. It is reproducable, reliable and good enough. Therefore, not much regular research is going on.
-However, it is their sacred mission to search out new technology. This mindset actually hinders original research, but it also means that they specialize in figuring out that old tech.
-The low-ranking members and most people only need formalized rituals. However, those are only normal usage instructions with some strapped-on religious rituals.

However, wether the OP realize it or not, 40K actually has a lot of experience with figuring out alien or ancient technology.
While the AM only does a little original research, they primary mission is to figure out already existing tech.
Therefore, we can expect a competent 40K-force to be highly efficient at this task, even lacking the knowledge SG-humans had - particulary since their tech-base is higher.

[Teleros]

1. Computer wont turn on.

So they'll use their own and muck around with stuff until they find out how to use it.

2. A stargate is a what?

Webway portal obviously . May take a while to figure out, but it's not like the Imperium doesn't have experience of this stuff.

3. No specially designed equipment and interfaces made to hook to Ancient technology
4. No ATA gene.

This'll be the bit the slows them down more than anything I suspect, although I would assume the techpriests can rig up something eventually - as has been said, they're well "designed" for interfacing with machinery, and it's not like the Imperium has any standard system to go off beyond perhaps STC tech. The "eventually" being the key, and assuming as per Crom etc that they get the place up to the surface without drowning, then this means they'll probably have something cooked up fairly soon (see also #1).

5. No replacement power supplies to replace the ZPM.

40K has plenty of its own good power supplies, all the techpriests need to do is plug them in. It might take a few, as Cpl Kendall said, but still.

6. Do the doors even open since computer stays down?

Chainsword / Meltabomb / whatever + door = fixed.

7. Ancient? What is ancient?

Some weird new language, apparently related to the semi-mythical Romans from pre-Warp Holy Terra.
(I think, I'm pretty sure the Ancient language was said to be related to Latin...)

8. Everything is so small (arent space marines huge compared to normal humans?)

See #6.

The AdaptMech are so dogmatic, they'll probably take five years before they even TRY to touch any 'unconsecrated Xenos tech', let alone try to actually STUDY it. There are expections to this, but the vast majority of the preisthood are NOT the kind of people who you want with you to try and study alien technology. The vast majority of them don't come close to following -or even accepting- the scientific method, most of those that do are either branded as Heritics and shot, or work in secret very high up on Mars -though as 'Mechanium' shows, even THAT aint enough.

I think I'm going to go with Connor's analysis of the AdMech of this TBH. Also of course, Atlantis was a human-designed place, when / if they figure this out things will be a lot easier. What obviously human stuff (if any) was left in the main part of the city? Pictures in frames or anything?

I have extreme doubts about how well a small group is going to do, cut off from the resources of the Imperium. They have neither the training, the supplies nor the understanding of the technolgogy which Earth did in 'Rising' to last until reinforcements arrived. They'll utterly frag any Wraith on the ground, but they just don't have a chance in trying to actually use anything on Atlantis.

They'll take longer to get started, the main issue will be how long it is until they can get a stargate linking back to their home universe. See other talk about power supplies for that.
Also, unless they go exploring right off the bat, they probably won't disturb the Wraith much at first, and may in fact prefer to secure / build a generator powerful enough to let them make that stargate to the Imperium first.

[Crazedwraith]

Technically if the IoM go and the Atlantis Expedition Don't. Then they will all drown with in about an hour as the forcefields go. without the ATA gene, the Marines can't use the time travel jumper to go back into time and convince Janus to stop that.

Alright that was a bit cheeky, assuming they arrive in the timeline with a frozen Weir, more battery power and the surfacing failsafe. They still don't have the ATA and nothing switches on. They're slightly better off in the short term because Atlantis doesn't start gobbling up all it remaining power as they switch things on.

But they are rather boned. No ATA, no knowledge of ancient. The earth people only got the earth gate to work because they had that helpful instructional stone tablet and the old fashioned gate that was manually dial able. The IoM force is stuck with a vastly more complicated digital gate design that they can't just zap with power and twirl the middle ring to see what happens.

So they have to figure out the computer systems; which are entirely in ancient and they don't have any of the legs up the SGverse had in translating it; (I.e. a guy with the entire knowledge of the ancients zapped into his brain.)

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Tech preists are good at reverse enginnering? They'll easily figure all this out?

Um, no.

The AdaptMech are so dogmatic, they'll probably take five years before they even TRY to touch any 'unconsecrated Xenos tech', let alone try to actually STUDY it. There are expections to this, but the vast majority of the preisthood are NOT the kind of people who you want with you to try and study alien technology. The vast majority of them don't come close to following -or even accepting- the scientific method, most of those that do are either branded as Heritics and shot, or work in secret very high up on Mars -though as 'Mechanium' shows, even THAT aint enough.

I have extreme doubts about how well a small group is going to do, cut off from the resources of the Imperium. They have neither the training, the supplies nor the understanding of the technolgogy which Earth did in 'Rising' to last until reinforcements arrived. They'll utterly frag any Wraith on the ground, but they just don't have a chance in trying to actually use anything on Atlantis.

You have some funny ideas about the Adeptus Mechanicus. Just because the vast majority of the Imperium maintains a backward view toward technology and the AM wants to keep it that way doesn't mean the AM itself shares that view. From Dark Heresy, original Black Industries print, page 88:

The Cult Mechanicus holds a virtual monopoly on technology. Its tenets and beliefs permeate through their rituals into the common superstition of Imperial citizens. The Adeptus Mechanicus is run by the Tech-Priests of Mars, an insular priesthood that worship the Machine God and whose goal is to harvest all the lost technology that has been missing since before the Age of Strife. The lowest ranks of Tech-Priests have mainly maintenance and construction duties, but as a Tech-adept progresses and acquires greater knowledge, he is relieved from the more trivial day-to-day tasks and allowed to study and learn of the greater mysterious and missing techniques that have prevented any kind of progressive development in the Imperium's technological base.

All Tech-Priests have an advanced grasp of how to maintain most of the standard technologies that are used throughout the Imperium. There are also many specialities [sic] a Tech-Priest can study, such as the biologius [sic], xenology and the use of rediscovered weaponry to name but a few.

Tech-Priests are not confined to Mars or the numerous Forge Worlds that are scattered throughout the galaxy. Many are given leave to seek out lost technologies or investigate rumoured sightings of STC templates. It is on these missions Tech-Priests most likely come into contact with an Inquisitor or cell.

[...] His knowledge of Imperial, and even xenos, technology will always prove useful. A Tech-Priest may even have the means, via a neural plug, to communicate directly with the machine spirit of certain technologies, making him a very desirable ally.

Emphasis mine. While the term 'cyber seer' is a contrivance used to classify some higher-ranking techpriests, the point remains on page 92:

Cyber Seers delve into the forbidden and occult matters of machinery with frightening zeal. From unnatural geometries to warp-touched autonoma, Cyber Seers do not shirk or sway from looking upon the damning and heretical in their quest for knowledge.

[hongi]

2. A stargate is a what?

A plucky group of USAF personnel and a discredited archeologist figured it out. Why can't a group of highly-equipped specialists who have spent 10,000 years mucking around with archeo- and xenotechnology do it?

Um, they had the entire US government behind their research didn't they?

[Batman]

Not to mention they had about three quarters of a century to do so.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

They only briefly looked at it during WWII and then shut it down until the 1990s, whereupon they scratched their heads until Jackson figured it out. Then they shut it down again for several years, whereupon Carter figured the rest out.

[Batman]

Which means they WASTED most of that time. NOT that they didn't HAVE it. And while it's been a while since I saw the Stargate movie I DO think the USAF went to a not inconsiderable effort to try to figure out how the Stargate worked (and as per SG-1 ITSELF SUCCEEDED as early as the 1940s (The Torments of Tantalsus)).

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

That's my point, Batman. They didn't actually use "three quarters of a century". Most of that time the Stargate sat around under a white sheet collecting dust.

And I just stated that they messed around with it during WWII. In fact on reading your post again I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to communicate, because it appears to be a rewording of what I just wrote.

[hongi]

They only briefly looked at it during WWII and then shut it down until the 1990s, whereupon they scratched their heads until Jackson figured it out. Then they shut it down again for several years, whereupon Carter figured the rest out.

Why do you think the IoM force will do better? Jackson and Carter are retardedly smart and lucky.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I'm not saying that they'd do better, just that the notion of the IoM contingent overcoming such an obstacle is not unreasonable. Carter and Jackson are among the best and brightest of a planet of six billion. An Inquisitor's personal retinue is among the best and brightest of a galaxy of quintillions, who have prior experience with this sort of thing no less.

[Serafina]

We can, of course, not be sure when or if the IoM will figure it out.

However, we CAN say that they have highly trained specialists who are backed up by millenia of experience in such things.
Since we saw what other specialists managed to do, we can estaminate the capabilities of the IoM.

Such an estaminate says that the generally higher capabilities of the IoM should be able to overcome the laack of prior knowledge, particulary since that was also an issue for the SGC.
Furthermore, it is quite possible that they can surpass the linguistic and technological barriers due to their higher techbase - unlike Earth, their technology is on an roughly equal level to the Ancients (in menas of energy output etc.).

Also, they have more time to figure it out if the initial drowning is avoided, since their capability to fight off any enemies is much higher. Even the drowning could be survived by some members of the team, since their armor is capable of operating in such conditions for weeks.

[Teleros]

Seems like we're just arguing in circles over whether the IoM will manage to turn the place on, not drown, etc.

Assuming they can manage to at least raise the place to the surface again and avoid dying horribly, what happens next?

[PainRack]

Tech preists are good at reverse enginnering? They'll easily figure all this out?

Um, no.

The AdaptMech are so dogmatic, they'll probably take five years before they even TRY to touch any 'unconsecrated Xenos tech', let alone try to actually STUDY it. There are expections to this, but the vast majority of the preisthood are NOT the kind of people who you want with you to try and study alien technology. The vast majority of them don't come close to following -or even accepting- the scientific method, most of those that do are either branded as Heritics and shot, or work in secret very high up on Mars -though as 'Mechanium' shows, even THAT aint enough.

Umm, no. Dark Heresy has adventure tracks where the AdMech turns on warpgates/logic gates of some sort, where machines can create a warp portal for daemon entry. And apparently, its common enough that the Inquisition is concerned about rogue AdMech priests violating their Interdiction zones.

Then's there's also the whole Warp powersource the AdMech tried to use off the dwarves, oops, I mean Squats.

They MIGHT need a bigger expedition than just two Techpriests and stuff, but they are willing to experiment.

[Cykeisme]

Since it's come up in the discussion, perhaps defining the exact rank and nature of the Techpriests in question would be good.
If there's a Magos or two whose fields of inquiry are archeotech, that'd smooth things out significantly.
On the other hand, if it was just Enginseers or something, they'd probably have about the same odds of figuring things out as your average StarDestroyer.net board member.

[Cykeisme]

Umm, no. Dark Heresy has adventure tracks where the AdMech turns on warpgates/logic gates of some sort, where machines can create a warp portal for daemon entry. And apparently, its common enough that the Inquisition is concerned about rogue AdMech priests violating their Interdiction zones.

There was also the ancient Chaos-possessed Iron Men automated factory in Gaunt's Ghosts. It was powered up by parties not affiliated to the AdMech, but it further illustrates why the lower ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus are indoctrinated to follow such regimented procedures; only once they gain a fuller understanding of the hazardous universe at large are they allowed free reign to play with stuff they find.

Then you have other nasty stuff like Necron tombs..