DW Q re Rassillon

[Stark]

There is a strong consensus that Timothy Dalton is Rassillon, awakened by the Time Lords in their hour of need.

Is there any evidence for this outside RTD talking shit? He's never called Rassillon apparently, doesn't have any off Rassillon's previous regalia, and isn't credited as Rassillon. Author's intent is meaningless. Is there any reason why he can't just be the President?

I only ask because it being Rassillon is fucking stupid.

[TC Pilot]

The Doctor calls him Rassilon in the episode.

Edit - more specifically, "The link is broken! Back into the Time War Rassilon!"

[Stark]

What!

Due to that other thread I was doing some reading and I was informed nobody ever called him that and it was just RTD in confidential. Oh well; it really IS that fucking stupid.

At least it's Timothy Dalton.

[TC Pilot]

It wouldn't be right for RTD to leave without emasculating every old-Who race.

Did you not watch the episode, or did you just but a mental block over it to cope with the trauma?

[Patrick Degan]

Yes, it was written into the script by The Fanboy. I could strangle him.

[Big Orange]

Or it could be the Doctor just being sarcastic towards the mysterious Lord President who's pumped up with his own self-importance (like calling an warlike, pretentious modern day leader Hitler/Napoleon/Caeser).

[mr friendly guy]

It could be either way. IIRC in an interview once RTD said he knew what he planned for Who but he chose not to reveal things and prefered to let the fans "imagine" what he meant when he did his name dropping. So the fans do (shameless que to my own fan fic).

[Bedlam]

I dont think the president shown in the specials was the historical Rassillon.

There's no reason that two people couldn't have the same name. Rassillon might be a fairly common name amungst time lords it would be somewhat like and American president haveing the name Jesus. Alternatively it might be used as a title, Rassillon could mean war leader or something like that.

[Ilya Muromets]

Considering how a lot of the stuff in The Five Doctors and other episodes seemed to be named after Rassilon, it is very likely that someone would've named someone after him. Or took on his name for political reasons or something.

[Stark]

Since Rassiloon was a crazy, power mad dictator who (claimed credit for) set up the whole Time Lord society and was then essentially assassinated by them, I think it's fairly unlikely anyone was going to decide to call their son 'Rassillon'.

But hey Time Lords don't have kids right guys?

[Big Orange]

Ceaser was used as a title long after the actual Ceaser got assassinated and Rassilon's remains were entombed in a fortified tower with some reference.

[Stark]

Yeah, and 'Caesar's' killers were hunted and killed; it wasn't a popular movement and they took a bunch of names as titles. If they'd added some kind of depth to suggest that plenty of TL had always wanted to bring back psycho wizard Rassillon that'd be fine, but since he'd sworn revenge that probably isn't a great idea.

That tower is in the death zone as part of a trap; hardly evidence of goodwill. But hey, no biological children right?

[mr friendly guy]

You know if people are really that curious, why don't you email BBC and see what they say.

. If they'd added some kind of depth to suggest that plenty of TL had always wanted to bring back psycho wizard Rassillon that'd be fine, but since he'd sworn revenge that probably isn't a great idea.

That would have been good, but then we wouldn't have time for RTD to write the 10 th doctors self indulgent final scenes, which I must admit wasn't that bad, but did it have to take sooo long? That being said there were at least one fanatic willing to bring back Omega, so I guess some fanatics would like to bring back Rassilon isn't too much of a stretch. But yeah, they should have hinted something, because the reveal moment came right out of left field.

[Stark]

Omega is arguably far more sympathetic; betrayed and abandoned to raise his people to godhood. Rassillon is what - a power mad war hero killed off by the establishment?

I'd imagine anti-Capitol radicals would idolise omega, but there's little sympathy for Rastalon. Shame he didn't carry a demat gun everywhere, honestly.

[NecronLord]

That tower is in the death zone as part of a trap; hardly evidence of goodwill.

It is however, presented as evidence of goodwill, turning would be dictators to stone. While that's frankly, up there with Family of Blood for cruel punishments, it's meant to be a benevolent act. There's no reason to think that the Black Scrolls of Rassilon that spoke of him being imprisoned are accurate. They lied about the 'immortality.' Given that he seems to have control of his tomb, at least enough for telekinesis and petrification of visitors he finds unworthy, I'd say his being there is actually of his own free will.

I'm still not sure why Borusa didn't just use the direct transmat to the freaking tomb of Rassilon in the first place. For all End of Time's flaws, it makes considerably more sense than Five Doctors.

[Patrick Degan]

I'm still not sure why Borusa didn't just use the direct transmat to the freaking tomb of Rassilon in the first place. For all End of Time's flaws, it makes considerably more sense than Five Doctors.

I will assume you meant that as a joke, of course.

[mr friendly guy]

There were two stories about Rassilon, the good side and the bad side. The Doctor is aware of the official good side and the rumoured bad side in the Five Doctors. I got the impression that the "true" history was unknown even to the Time Lords of that era. So it might be that they brushed aside the stories of how bad ass he was as simply rumours. Or they could have rehabilitated his image the same way Stalin seems to be getting a make over, so by the time of the modern era his sympathisers were numerous enough to be a political force.

[Big Orange]

That would have been good, but then we wouldn't have time for RTD to write the 10 th doctors self indulgent final scenes, which I must admit wasn't that bad, but did it have to take sooo long?

The Tenth Doctor taking his sweet time to die and regenerate came across as a "walking ghost phase". And having Rassilon's alleged remains interned into an elaborate tower shows more reference than just plonking in him into a black hole or something.

[NecronLord]

I'm still not sure why Borusa didn't just use the direct transmat to the freaking tomb of Rassilon in the first place. For all End of Time's flaws, it makes considerably more sense than Five Doctors.

I will assume you meant that as a joke, of course.

No, not really. Five Doctors was just plain bad (there are much worse examples of course), and aside from the nostalgia of having all the Doctors at the time together, I can't say much for it. It makes Borusa into a megalomaniac murderer, and Rassilon into the Judeo-Christian god that condemns people to hell for wanting immortality (which, mind, the High Council already has anyway)

Lame and clichéd though End of Time is, it's story holds up to analysis far better. Borusa has to kidnap five doctors to go into the Death Zone, because the Tower of Rassilon consists of "If to Rassilon's Tower you would go, Choose above between below... or the transmat in the middle that leads straight to the council chamber..." - Flavia just fucking walks into the tomb. Borusa, supposedly with all kinds of special gizmos, requires an elaborate scheme that makes Doctor Evil look practical.

Rassilon was imprisoned in his tomb, oh, wait, no, it's all a trap. So what, the High Council imprisoned Rassilon and then gave him the ability to turn people who annoyed him nearby into stone. That seems like a... random... item to put in a tomb.

[Patrick Degan]

I'm still not sure why Borusa didn't just use the direct transmat to the freaking tomb of Rassilon in the first place. For all End of Time's flaws, it makes considerably more sense than Five Doctors.

I will assume you meant that as a joke, of course.

No, not really. Five Doctors was just plain bad (there are much worse examples of course), and aside from the nostalgia of having all the Doctors at the time together, I can't say much for it. It makes Borusa into a megalomaniac murderer, and Rassilon into the Judeo-Christian god that condemns people to hell for wanting immortality (which, mind, the High Council already has anyway)

Lame and clichéd though End of Time is, it's story holds up to analysis far better. Borusa has to kidnap five doctors to go into the Death Zone, because the Tower of Rassilon consists of "If to Rassilon's Tower you would go, Choose above between below... or the transmat in the middle that leads straight to the council chamber..." - Flavia just fucking walks into the tomb. Borusa, supposedly with all kinds of special gizmos, requires an elaborate scheme that makes Doctor Evil look practical.

Rassilon was imprisoned in his tomb, oh, wait, no, it's all a trap. So what, the High Council imprisoned Rassilon and then gave him the ability to turn people who annoyed him nearby into stone. That seems like a... random... item to put in a tomb.

Not saying "The Five Doctors" was good. But I'll take it's foolishness over the utter shit that was "The End Of Time" any day of the week. I can at least sit through "The Five Doctors" without feeling braincells beginning to die.

[Stark]

Let's ignore all stories where people are imprisioned with dumb shir, like a kill all Daleks button or all the materials necessary timescale like Sutekh.

[NecronLord]

I think the pain of Five Doctors may have faded, when did you watch it last? It does have some gems, like the Raston Warrior Robot, and of course, a return of Susan, but yeah, I'd rather watch End of Time. That may be due to the production values, I suppose.

The Master himself is cooler in Five Doctors though. And less full of random stupid flying shit.

[Patrick Degan]

I think the pain of Five Doctors may have faded. It does have some gems, like the Raston Warrior Robot, and of course, a return of Susan, but yeah, I'd rather watch End of Time. That may be due to the production values, I suppose.

Ah, you like the flashy toys. Nevermind the utter idiocy. Nevermind that RTD is contradicting his own bullshit at every turn. Nevermind that the plot of EoT simply makes no fucking sense at all. It looks prettier.

[NecronLord]

Ah, you like the nostalgia. Nevermind the utter idiocy. Nevermind that JNT is contradicting his own bullshit at every turn. Nevermind that the plot of 5Docs simply makes no fucking sense at all. It looks retro.

Really now. EoT contradicts previous episodes, so does 5Docs (though at least it contradicts a different producer and stories further back) and its story makes no fucking sense. The Death Zone is so dangerous that TARDISes can fly in there and there's a direct route to the capitol. Time Lords are evil lolz is at least internally consistant (of course, it actually follows through on 'Time Lords are Evil' as opposed to 5Docs' just plain weird treatment of Rassilon's supposed evil. Where the Doctors don't bat an eye at his 'justly' condemning Borusa to a hellish existance forever. It's like the end of 'Family of Blood' except without the flimsy excuse of the Doctor being emotionally disturbed.

[Patrick Degan]

Ah, you like the nostalgia. Nevermind the utter idiocy. Nevermind that JNT is contradicting his own bullshit at every turn. Nevermind that the plot of 5Docs simply makes no fucking sense at all. It looks retro.

Mimickry is not a rebuttal of anything. And furthermore, JNT didn't write "The Five Doctors", nor did he ever really try to write any part of the series while he was actually producer. So, unlike RTD the Anorak, JNT wasn't contradicting anything. You fail.

Really now. EoT contradicts previous episodes, so does 5Docs (though at least it contradicts a different producer and stories further back) and its story makes no fucking sense. The Death Zone is so dangerous that TARDISes can fly in there and there's a direct route to the capitol.

The problem was not getting into the Zone in the first place (by use of the Timescoop) but getting into the Tomb via TARDIS or teleport, made possible after the Doctors had disarmed the defences protecting it. Are you sure you've even watched "The Five Doctors"?

Time Lords are evil lolz is at least internally consistant (of course, it actually follows through on 'Time Lords are Evil' as opposed to 5Docs' just plain weird treatment of Rassilon's supposed evil.

Consistent with what? The Doctor ran away from his people because they were worse evil as the Daleks? I must have missed those episodes from the classic series. Oh, that's right, because there were no such episodes. RTD just plucked that out of his ass for EoT. It doesn't even follow from any previous episode of the new series, nor does an extant Gallifrey after the final battle —in which the planet was described as having burned ("Dalek") or reduced to rubble ("End Of The World").

Where the Doctors don't bat an eye at his 'justly' condemning Borusa to a hellish existance forever.

Not really a whole hell of a lot they could have done about it, actually, and Borusa was trying to make himself dictator in perpetuity over the Time Lords. Are you sure you've even watched "The Five Doctors"?

It's like the end of 'Family of Blood' except without the flimsy excuse of the Doctor being emotionally disturbed.

Um, not quite. Borusa fell into a trap designed to eliminate would-be megalomaniacs from seizing the perpetual power over time —Rassilon's final safeguard. Further, Rassilon did leave a warning of sorts to a would-be immortal dictator in the form of his cryptic inscription, but Borusa was too stupid or greedy to heed it. The Doctor's treatment of the Family, by contrast, had an extra element of sadism to it —and that after he had caused the very problem for which he condemned them by going to ground in 1913 England and putting a lot of innocent civilians between him and the Family while he played human for a few months. No, actually not like T5Ds at all.