Second Galactic Empire Vs Star Trek

[Ritterin Sophia]

Okay, so we know that the outcome of any conflict between the Star Wars Galaxy and Treks' Mily Way is a forgone conclusion. We also have a pretty good idea of how The First Galactic Empire would wage such a war. So I thought it might be interested to see the outcome of a scenario that doesn't involve them. So here's the scenario:

The date is 131 ABY, Roan Fel has reclaimed his position as Emperor of the Galaxy along with his Empire and the Galactic Alliance remains fragmented from it's destruction at the conclusion of the Sith-Imperial War. A wormhole opens up in the Outer Rim territories to the Romulan DMZ after the Federation has had a chance to replace it's losses from the Dominion War. How do the Alpha Quadrant powers and the Second Galactic Empire respond to each other?

[hunter5]

They still have access to the same weapons and technology that give the original empire an advantage over the Trek powers. Victory for the second empire.

[Batman]

They still have access to the same weapons and technology that give the original empire an advantage over the Trek powers. Victory for the second empire.

And General Schatten KNOWS that. Methinks this is about the SHAPE the inevitable fall of of the Trek AQ will take, what will happen to the AQ AFTERWARDS, and does the Second Empire even bother to try to begin with?

[Serafina]

They still have access to the same weapons and technology that give the original empire an advantage over the Trek powers. Victory for the second empire.

And General Schatten KNOWS that. Methinks this is about the SHAPE the inevitable fall of of the Trek AQ will take, what will happen to the AQ AFTERWARDS, and does the Second Empire even bother to try to begin with?

This. After all, Schatten wrote

How do the Alpha Quadrant powers and the Second Galactic Empire respond to each other?

Given that the AQ represents a lot of easily counquerable resources and population, i think the difference will not be that big - they will get counqered as soon as the Fel Empire realises this.
They may be a bit more humane than the Palpatine Empire, but they won't pass on an opportunity like this.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Given that the AQ represents a lot of easily counquerable resources and population, i think the difference will not be that big - they will get counqered as soon as the Fel Empire realises this.
They may be a bit more humane than the Palpatine Empire, but they won't pass on an opportunity like this.

Seems like I took for granted that everyone on SDN had decent reading comprehension.

Serafina and Bats are correct the discussion is how the AQ Powers and the Fel Empire interact with each other, how the Empire would prosecute the war that inevitably ends in their conquest of the Milky Way. Primarily the purpose of this thread is because I actually question whether it would take war for the Empire to spread the Imperial influence to control the AQ. From this we can see the Fel Empire is a completely different beast from Palpatine's, though it still draws legitimacy and it's traditional looks from it. However, I'm not too familiar with Romulan, Klingon, Federation, or other governments to predict whether they would actually accept subserviance to the Empire.

[Thanas]

Roan Fel actually cannot devote a lot of resources to subduing the AQ. Without Bastion's strong defences, his Empire would already have fallen. Only the fact that he has the most heavily fortified planet in existence under his control even allows him to challenge the Sith.

Therefore, he most likely would not use brute force to conquer the AQ. He probably would instead not even notice the powers there at all, instead setting up bases for strikeforces/resource gathering there. I can easily see him doing something like the empire of the hand - we protect you from the borg/evil of the week and you give us x resources in return. After all, it is not like two ISDs are not enough to destroy almost any threat to any race within hours.

So he would most likely settle for an indirect rule or an alliance. The Romulans are perfect for this - not only do they have cloaking technology and no scruples, they are also cold-blooded and logical enough to take such an offer. Furthermore, with their usual backstabbing and intrige at court, one or two Imperial knights may be enough to ensure nobody strong enough comes to power to break the alliance.

Thus, I suspect Fel would either ignore the AQ if he cannot spare the ships (highly likely), use it as a secret resource gathering/mining/bases facility (likely, though the bases is a kinda moot point - if Bastion should fall, no planet is going to provide enough of a powerbase for him to retake the empire) or try and manipulate the AQ powers to his advantage (less likely - expending his energy and time on something that does not yield much of a return is not really his style). So my opinion is Fel leaves them alone and only comes back (if he ever does) after his throne is secure again.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Roan Fel actually cannot devote a lot of resources to subduing the AQ. Without Bastion's strong defences, his after his throne is secure again.

OP Specifies that Roan Fel has his throne back.

[Thanas]

Then why would he care?
He has an empire to rebuilt.

[Serafina]

Counqering the AQ would not require much resources, but could grant lots of them.
Doing so could very easily develop into a race between opposing factions, as it grants them a potentially substantial advantage for next to no work.

[Thanas]

Counqering the AQ would not require much resources, but could grant lots of them.
Doing so could very easily develop into a race between opposing factions, as it grants them a potentially substantial advantage for next to no work.

There are lots of planets in the SW galaxy that are not part of the empire and can be easier influenced and developed. Heck, the outer rim alone has more and easier opportunities to expand the resource base without the hassle of having to conquer/influence it.

[Solauren]

Fel Empire to the UFP:
Hello. We're a Galaxy Spanning Consitutional Monarchy, that believes in using non-violent methods to persuad planets and organizations to joining us peacefully. However, despite that, we have a massive military and technology that will boggle the minds of your best scientists. We ran into these 'Borg' creatures, and took out 500 of those flying cubes using a troop Transport.

Are you interested in opening diplomatic relations?

UFP: I'm sorry, can we have a moment, we're too busy pulling our jaws out of the mantle of the planet we are on.

I'd expect the UFP to join the Empire within a decade (or after the next Borg attack), followed by the Klingons.
I'd also expect the Cardassians to join rather quickly, as well as smaller regional powers.

Within 1 - 2 generations, the Alpha Quadrant will have joined the Empire. Probably most of the Delta Quadrant (after all, these guys can keep it safe from the Borg), and depending, you might see the Odo-lead Dominion join up as well.

[Big Phil]

Why would they join the Empire?

To use a real world example - why would Monaco want to join the French (putting aside for a moment that Monaco is technologically on par with France)? They're doing just fine on their own, they can trade with their much larger neighbor, independence offers certain advantages (tax shelters)... there's no reason to join unless the French or someone else threaten them.

[Solauren]

Why would they join the Empire?

To use a real world example - why would Monaco want to join the French (putting aside for a moment that Monaco is technologically on par with France)? They're doing just fine on their own, they can trade with their much larger neighbor, independence offers certain advantages (tax shelters)... there's no reason to join unless the French or someone else threaten them.

The joining doesn't have to be direct or overt.

More like 'we've become so imperial anyway...'

[Big Phil]

Why would they join the Empire?

To use a real world example - why would Monaco want to join the French (putting aside for a moment that Monaco is technologically on par with France)? They're doing just fine on their own, they can trade with their much larger neighbor, independence offers certain advantages (tax shelters)... there's no reason to join unless the French or someone else threaten them.

The joining doesn't have to be direct or overt.

More like 'we've become so imperial anyway...'

That doesn't answer the question - why would any Star Trek civilization join the Second Galactic Empire (which is in a galaxy far, far away) instead of just trading with it? Let me be more blunt: why would the quasi-democratic United Federation of Planets join a dictatorship (benevolent or otherwise)? Why would any Star Trek power join?

[Jericho Kross]

The technology, commercial goods, and protection would be a good reason. Even if one power were to join, like lets say Romulans, with access to even a small amount of fighters, imagine what they would do

[Big Phil]

Those are YOUR motivations for joining. They are not the UFPs motivations (or any other civilization, for that matter). Take a look at our history, if you still don't understand. Even in the face of significantly more powerful civilizations, less advanced cultures don't typically race to join them. They'll trade, they'll adapt their technology if it's offered, they'll go through cultural shifts, but they generally don't ask for citizenship in other civilizations.

Examples:

* Japan during the 19th Century traded with and adapted Western technology, but remained fiercely independent.
* North American civilizations during the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries alternately traded and fought with the English, French, Portuguese, Spanish, and Dutch, but in no cases did they request to become subjects of the European powers.
* During Chinese cultural hegemony, ships often sailed around asking/demanding tribute from independent states in Asia, India, and perhaps Africa. None of those nations, despite seeing China's technology and engineering, asked to join the Chinese Empire.

For that matter, why would the Star Trek powers be able to trade for Star Wars technology? While advanced nations typically attempt to restrict the most cutting edge technologies, they will trade common items. In other words, the Empire might be unwilling to trade its most advanced hyperdrive technology, but might have no problem selling slower civilians models.

[Jericho Kross]

I was thinking more of an associated state more than vassal. As per trading, its not like raw resources aren't useful; especially when rebuilding and the provide a new market for imperial goods economy.

[Solauren]

Oh, you're right Sanchez. It's not like we haven't seen one Star Trek power become a member of a superior Star Trek power when it was clearly to the lesser powers advantage.

Oh wait, we have: The Cardassian Union joined the Dominion. And then promptly tossed out the Klingon Empire's invasion forces, crushed the Marqii, and nearly conquered the Alpha Quadrant.

Yup, no prior occurance of joining a superior power.

[Big Phil]

Oh, you're right Sanchez. It's not like we haven't seen one Star Trek power become a member of a superior Star Trek power when it was clearly to the lesser powers advantage.

Oh wait, we have: The Cardassian Union joined the Dominion. And then promptly tossed out the Klingon Empire's invasion forces, crushed the Marqii, and nearly conquered the Alpha Quadrant.

Yup, no prior occurance of joining a superior power.

You're using the single exception to the rule as the rule itself?

The Dominion basically said "Join us or die," but we're not talking about the Empire launching a war of aggression.

[montypython]

Oh, you're right Sanchez. It's not like we haven't seen one Star Trek power become a member of a superior Star Trek power when it was clearly to the lesser powers advantage.

Oh wait, we have: The Cardassian Union joined the Dominion. And then promptly tossed out the Klingon Empire's invasion forces, crushed the Marqii, and nearly conquered the Alpha Quadrant.

Yup, no prior occurance of joining a superior power.

You're using the single exception to the rule as the rule itself?

The Dominion basically said "Join us or die," but we're not talking about the Empire launching a war of aggression.

No one in Trek has demonstrated the level of tech superiority of the Empire in any case, so that's not a rationale for dismissing the idea.

[Big Phil]

No one in Trek has demonstrated the level of tech superiority of the Empire in any case, so that's not a rationale for dismissing the idea.

Burden of proof, skillet. Burden of proof. It's your job to demonstrate that it would happen, not my job to prove that it wouldn't. This is debating 101 - either provide a reasonable rationale for Trek powers joining the Star Wars Second Empire or knock it off.

Here's two suggestions:

1. Look for historical examples of this happening on Earth or in Trek (mind you, we're talking about people joining a MONARCHIST state, not a democracy)
2. Don't just say "yah huh... of course they would!" That's idiot Trektard debating and we're better than that here.

[Havok]

Oh, you're right Sanchez. It's not like we haven't seen one Star Trek power become a member of a superior Star Trek power when it was clearly to the lesser powers advantage.

Oh wait, we have: The Cardassian Union joined the Dominion. And then promptly tossed out the Klingon Empire's invasion forces, crushed the Marqii, and nearly conquered the Alpha Quadrant.

Yup, no prior occurance of joining a superior power.

Don't be an idiot. That is like saying 'Well look, the Indian nations decided to join the USA'. Of course they fucking did, they were about to be wiped the fuck out and had no where to go.

[montypython]

No one in Trek has demonstrated the level of tech superiority of the Empire in any case, so that's not a rationale for dismissing the idea.

Burden of proof, skillet. Burden of proof. It's your job to demonstrate that it would happen, not my job to prove that it wouldn't. This is debating 101 - either provide a reasonable rationale for Trek powers joining the Star Wars Second Empire or knock it off.

Here's two suggestions:

1. Look for historical examples of this happening on Earth or in Trek (mind you, we're talking about people joining a MONARCHIST state, not a democracy)
2. Don't just say "yah huh... of course they would!" That's idiot Trektard debating and we're better than that here.

Basic logic already indicates that the absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, and that in turn would rule out dismissing an idea out of hand. In any case there are historical examples of people joining greater powers, the Romans made use of this during the later empire because the various tribes kept going to Roman territory as they wanted all the benefits of Roman trade and culture, and Roman in turn received benefits of military service from them. In Trek's case different pressure situations will cause different dynamics to form, but Star Fleet Battles has the better precedent with the Klingons and their vassal races, some of whom joined willingly and supported the Klingons even during periods when leaving would have been a good idea.

[Big Phil]

No one in Trek has demonstrated the level of tech superiority of the Empire in any case, so that's not a rationale for dismissing the idea.

Burden of proof, skillet. Burden of proof. It's your job to demonstrate that it would happen, not my job to prove that it wouldn't. This is debating 101 - either provide a reasonable rationale for Trek powers joining the Star Wars Second Empire or knock it off.

Here's two suggestions:

1. Look for historical examples of this happening on Earth or in Trek (mind you, we're talking about people joining a MONARCHIST state, not a democracy)
2. Don't just say "yah huh... of course they would!" That's idiot Trektard debating and we're better than that here.

Basic logic already indicates that the absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, and that in turn would rule out dismissing an idea out of hand.

Come on now, Thunder. You can do better than this. Absence of evidence? Really? The idea is dismissed until you offer up a plausible scenario.

In any case there are historical examples of people joining greater powers, the Romans made use of this during the later empire because the various tribes kept going to Roman territory as they wanted all the benefits of Roman trade and culture, and Roman in turn received benefits of military service from them.

This would be a great example except for one major flaw: the tribes fleeing to Roman territory were generally being displaced by someone bigger and stronger than they were farther to the east. They ended up in Rome as allies or citizens against their previous enemies. The benefit to the tribes was the security of Roman citizenship; the benefit to Rome was manpower and new allies. In other words, there was a quid pro quo.

What exactly does the Second Empire gain in this situation? Now there's some backwater in another galaxy that they'll have to garrison and defend, which costs time and resources. And that's even assuming these civilizations would join the Second Empire (which is, mind you, a complete unknown quantity that isn't even from the same galaxy). Remember, the Second Empire is in another galaxy - they're not close, they have no history in the Star Trek galaxy, and the civilizations there have no reason to trust them.

Look, there's even precedent for this exact situation. Not one civilization asked to be accepted as a member of Species 8472's civilization even when it was obvious they could handily kick the Borg's collective asses.

In Trek's case different pressure situations will cause different dynamics to form, but Star Fleet Battles has the better precedent with the Klingons and their vassal races, some of whom joined willingly and supported the Klingons even during periods when leaving would have been a good idea.

We're using Star Fleet Battles as evidence now? Since when did that become canon?

[Thanas]

Most of the tribes being absorbed into the Roman Empire only did so when they were already defeated in the field by the Romans and their attempts to set up independent kingdoms failed. The analogy is not a valid one - the examples when they were integrated peacefully are also the ones where the tribe pretty much ceased to exist - because the Romans split them up in order to minimize the risk of revolt.

An exception being some of the germanic tribes, but these had been allies of rome for hundreds of years.