Four Tie Defenders vs Six Enterprise E's

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-16 03:41pm

Ender wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Target profile is an important design factor, Ender. And the TIE/D has a miserably poor target profile.
How so? From the front and rear it is about the same as with most TIEs, a ball with empty space between the pylons. From the top it is less then side profile of a TIE Interceptor, and from the side it is better then the TIE Fighter.

Wrong. The upper radiator gives it the worst up-down profile of any TIE, and the radiator placement gives it a worse left-right profile than the other models except for the TIE/ln.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-16 04:01pm

Alyeska wrote:
Captain tycho wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:Well... TIE/D's may be capable of packing a wallop, but, as fighters, there's a chance that the E-E's phasers could still damage 'em. It could go either way... ultimately depends on who manages to connect their shots.
TIE defenders are much, much faster than even TIE Inteceptors, and we see how accurate ST weapons are. Chances of hitting the Defenders is jack-squat. And yes, the Defenders carry prototorps. Even continous blaster fire would fuck up a Souvreign, ( not to mention Ion cannons.)
Funny how people use non Federation examples to prove Federation accuracy sucks. The Federation has shown near 100% accuracy with phasers.

True, however their weapons have shown a decreased ability to acquire targets against maneuverable ships. I think that the UFP's phasers would easily be able to target and destroy TIE Defenders, but the Sovereign's torpedo launchers would have greater difficulty with such enemies.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-02-16 04:13pm

Im not saying the Sov could'nt hit the Tie/d, but assuming the TIE pilot knew what he was doing then he could find some sort of blind spot underneath the Saucer and chew a hole in the hull, then repeat. Long range proton torpedo attacks would be a good strategy too, and if the Tie/d's had the heavy rockets or bombs from the TIE fighter games the Sovs would be fudhed in one pass.

What was the E/e's accuracy like against the Borg sphere in STFC? Were they even able to fire and if so did it demonstrate fed accuracy well?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-02-16 04:26pm

Most instances of a federation ship hitting its target are against large(ie hundreds of meters long) relativly(as compared to just about any SW ship) lumbering targets. And even against those they often miss. Against a 6.8 meter long ship accelerating at faster than 5000 Gs it is doubtful they will be able to get a phaser lock. especialy when their consoles are exploding after the first laser hit

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-16 05:13pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Im not saying the Sov could'nt hit the Tie/d, but assuming the TIE pilot knew what he was doing then he could find some sort of blind spot underneath the Saucer and chew a hole in the hull, then repeat. Long range proton torpedo attacks would be a good strategy too, and if the Tie/d's had the heavy rockets or bombs from the TIE fighter games the Sovs would be fudhed in one pass.

What was the E/e's accuracy like against the Borg sphere in STFC? Were they even able to fire and if so did it demonstrate fed accuracy well?

In STFC, the E-E demonstrated 100% accuracy against the borg. However, borg ships are huge.

I seriously doubt a TIE pilot could find a blind spot, the reason being.....I don't think it has one. Maybe if it were able to stay directly in front of the navigational deflector, while the E-E was performing her own maneuvers, but that would take a pilot with the skills of a Jedi Master.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-16 05:13pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Most instances of a federation ship hitting its target are against large(ie hundreds of meters long) relativly(as compared to just about any SW ship) lumbering targets. And even against those they often miss. Against a 6.8 meter long ship accelerating at faster than 5000 Gs it is doubtful they will be able to get a phaser lock. especialy when their consoles are exploding after the first laser hit

Name of episode where it was demonstrated that they often miss?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-16 05:17pm

Alyeska wrote:
Captain tycho wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:Well... TIE/D's may be capable of packing a wallop, but, as fighters, there's a chance that the E-E's phasers could still damage 'em. It could go either way... ultimately depends on who manages to connect their shots.
TIE defenders are much, much faster than even TIE Inteceptors, and we see how accurate ST weapons are. Chances of hitting the Defenders is jack-squat. And yes, the Defenders carry prototorps. Even continous blaster fire would fuck up a Souvreign, ( not to mention Ion cannons.)
Funny how people use non Federation examples to prove Federation accuracy sucks. The Federation has shown near 100% accuracy with phasers.

This again?

Against fighter-sized craft (disregarding the pathetic accuracy of the Defiant), they wait until the target is at point-blank range (a few hundred metres) before firing. They always hit because they wait until they're guaranteed of a hit; this does NOT mean they would be able to effortlessly pick off incoming TIE Defenders before they can launch missiles.

Your recurrent "100% hit rate" claim neglects to mention this fact. This is like a modern-day marksman bragging that he has a 100% hit rate from a range of 2 metres.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-16 05:20pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Most instances of a federation ship hitting its target are against large(ie hundreds of meters long) relativly(as compared to just about any SW ship) lumbering targets. And even against those they often miss. Against a 6.8 meter long ship accelerating at faster than 5000 Gs it is doubtful they will be able to get a phaser lock. especialy when their consoles are exploding after the first laser hit
Name of episode where it was demonstrated that they often miss?

"Paradise Lost", "The Die is Cast", and "A Call to Arms". Also: "Generations" and "Best of Both Worlds", unless you think that every other power in ST can somehow hold their own against the Federation despite having an ENORMOUS accuracy disadvantage. See my previous reply to Alyeska: the Feds tend to wait until they've got a sure hit before they fire; this does not mean they can effortlessly target and hit anything they want.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-16 05:24pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Captain tycho wrote:TIE defenders are much, much faster than even TIE Inteceptors, and we see how accurate ST weapons are. Chances of hitting the Defenders is jack-squat. And yes, the Defenders carry prototorps. Even continous blaster fire would fuck up a Souvreign, ( not to mention Ion cannons.)
Funny how people use non Federation examples to prove Federation accuracy sucks. The Federation has shown near 100% accuracy with phasers.
This again? Against fighter-sized craft (disregarding the pathetic accuracy of the Defiant), they wait until the target is at point-blank range (a few hundred metres) before firing. They always hit because they wait until they're guaranteed of a hit; this does NOT mean they would be able to effortlessly pick off incoming TIE Defenders before they can launch missiles.

Your recurrent "100% hit rate" claim neglects to mention this fact. This is like a modern-day marksman bragging that he has a 100% hit rate from a range of 2 metres.

Yes, that bit is always neglected. Giving the right selective circumstances the M1A1 has 200% accuracy for its main gun. But it would be considered absurd to acutally make that claim.

Nemisis of course throws off Alyeska's calculations. Strange that they didn't just get some FLIR equipment and turreted lasers.O well.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-16 05:28pm

It should also be noted that Voyager got its ass kicked by fighters in "Dragon's Teeth", and that the Lysian drones were moving in a perfectly straight line, yet they still had to wait until they were within a few hundred metres to fire. The Federation's record against fighter-sized craft is pathetic.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-16 05:33pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: Name of episode where it was demonstrated that they often miss?
"Paradise Lost", "The Die is Cast", and "A Call to Arms". Also: "Generations" and "Best of Both Worlds", unless you think that every other power in ST can somehow hold their own against the Federation despite having an ENORMOUS accuracy disadvantage. See my previous reply to Alyeska: the Feds tend to wait until they've got a sure hit before they fire; this does not mean they can effortlessly target and hit anything they want.

I think I need to make my position clear.

I'm refering to phaser beams, not pulse phasers. Since this threads topic involves a Sovereign class starship I don't believe the Defiants pulse phaser accuracy is relevant, since those are a fixed weapon.

For example in "Paradise Lost" even though the Defiant missed a few the Lokota never missed once.

The Feds have always demonstrated better accuracy then most of their opponents, even the Borg. However, accuracy is not what made the Borg dangerous in the ST universe.

To conclude, I understand and agree with your conclusion. Having 80 - 100% accuracy against starships doesn't mean the same will be true for small agile fighters, especially the TIE Defender.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-16 05:34pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Nemisis of course throws off Alyeska's calculations. Strange that they didn't just get some FLIR equipment and turreted lasers.O well.

Why would FLIR have made a difference?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-16 05:40pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Nemisis of course throws off Alyeska's calculations. Strange that they didn't just get some FLIR equipment and turreted lasers.O well.

Why would FLIR have made a difference?

So you can see the laser. Continuous fire from some low-end lasers would have worked better then firing a few short phaser shots at a time.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-02-16 06:03pm

Do I even bring up the fact that the T-Ds have decent shields too.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-17 12:07pm

E-Es win. They could launch lotsa shuttles to intercept the tie/ds.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-17 12:09pm

darthdavid wrote:E-Es win. They could launch lotsa shuttles to intercept the tie/ds.

ROTFLMAO!!! A shuttle against a TIE/d?

Need I remind you that a TIE/d which has a loadout appropriate to attack a capital ship has multiple warheads with greater firepower than the E-E's entire torpedo payload? Watch Slave-1 in AOTC.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-17 12:14pm

I see no reason why slave 1 affects tie/ds.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-17 12:16pm

darthdavid wrote:I see no reason why slave 1 affects tie/ds.

It gives us an idea of the firepower contained in a small SW warhead. The fact that TIE/d's can carry anything up to and including heavy fighter missiles means that if Slave-1 can fire it, a TIE/d can fire it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-17 12:17pm

Given the craft is not a military ship and is armed with a payload enough to kill the Enterprise-E?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-17 12:43pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Most instances of a federation ship hitting its target are against large(ie hundreds of meters long) relativly(as compared to just about any SW ship) lumbering targets. And even against those they often miss. Against a 6.8 meter long ship accelerating at faster than 5000 Gs it is doubtful they will be able to get a phaser lock. especialy when their consoles are exploding after the first laser hit
Name of episode where it was demonstrated that they often miss?
"Paradise Lost", "The Die is Cast", and "A Call to Arms". Also: "Generations" and "Best of Both Worlds", unless you think that every other power in ST can somehow hold their own against the Federation despite having an ENORMOUS accuracy disadvantage. See my previous reply to Alyeska: the Feds tend to wait until they've got a sure hit before they fire; this does not mean they can effortlessly target and hit anything they want.

Interesting all of your examples involve pulse weapons. You haven't listed a single miss with beam phasers. We have also seen beam phasers used accurately at ranges beyond 10km. We have seen torpedoes uses for precise shots at a range of 40km.

Mike, find me two examples of TNG and beyond of Starfleet ships missing with their beam phasers.

BTW, I already adressed the issue of the Federation accuracy advantage in another thread. This is what allows Tac-Fighters to be used effectively and thereby giving a significant tactical advantage in combat to the Federation against its enemies. That is why the Dominion lost in Sacrafice of Angels. They were unprepared to deal with an integrated fleet on the part of the Federation.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 12:51pm

darthdavid wrote:I see no reason why slave 1 affects tie/ds.

you are a bit dim arent you? Welcome to SD.net.....might I suggest you think before you post and you'll do fine.

I'd have to say this goes easily to the T/d's they pack the firepower to get the job done are tough in comparision to the ST weaponry and also present a small, agile, fast target......none of which is in the E-E's favour.....

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-17 12:51pm

Alyeska wrote:Interesting all of your examples involve pulse weapons. You haven't listed a single miss with beam phasers. We have also seen beam phasers used accurately at ranges beyond 10km. We have seen torpedoes uses for precise shots at a range of 40km.

Against fighters? Against multiple targets in a fleet battle? Or are you playing bait-and-switch again?

Mike, find me two examples of TNG and beyond of Starfleet ships missing with their beam phasers.

Alyeska, find me one example of TNG and beyond Starfleet ships hitting small, maneuvering fighters with their beam phasers at anything but point-blank range. The ability to hit a half-kilometre long target, one that is stationary, or one whose flight path you know precisely (eg- a torpedo launched from your own ship) is nothing to crow about.

BTW, I already adressed the issue of the Federation accuracy advantage in another thread. This is what allows Tac-Fighters to be used effectively and thereby giving a significant tactical advantage in combat to the Federation against its enemies.

And yet they don't crush them despite this ENORMOUS advantage in accuracy. Why not?

That is why the Dominion lost in Sacrafice of Angels. They were unprepared to deal with an integrated fleet on the part of the Federation.

If the accuracy disparity is that large, they should lose even with a 5:1 numerical advantage.

Alyeska, please read what I wrote about the fallacious nature of your argument. If you wait until you've got a sure hit before you fire (see "Conundrum", which WAS a fucking beam phaser), then this doesn't say jack shit about your marksmanship. Would you brag about being able to hit a target from 2 metres away 100% of the time? Of course not. So why do you brag about the Enterprise being able to consistently score hits with beam phasers on small targets when they're within 500 metres and moving in a straight line, and act as though this will somehow allow them to wipe out smaller, more maneuverable enemy fighters before they get in missile range?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 12:58pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: "Paradise Lost", "The Die is Cast", and "A Call to Arms". Also: "Generations" and "Best of Both Worlds", unless you think that every other power in ST can somehow hold their own against the Federation despite having an ENORMOUS accuracy disadvantage. See my previous reply to Alyeska: the Feds tend to wait until they've got a sure hit before they fire; this does not mean they can effortlessly target and hit anything they want.
Interesting all of your examples involve pulse weapons. You haven't listed a single miss with beam phasers. We have also seen beam phasers used accurately at ranges beyond 10km. We have seen torpedoes uses for precise shots at a range of 40km.

Mike, find me two examples of TNG and beyond of Starfleet ships missing with their beam phasers.

BTW, I already adressed the issue of the Federation accuracy advantage in another thread. This is what allows Tac-Fighters to be used effectively and thereby giving a significant tactical advantage in combat to the Federation against its enemies. That is why the Dominion lost in Sacrafice of Angels. They were unprepared to deal with an integrated fleet on the part of the Federation.
Alyeska, please read what I wrote about the fallacious nature of your argument. If you wait until you've got a sure hit before you fire (see "Conundrum", which WAS a fucking beam phaser), then this doesn't say jack shit about your marksmanship. Would you brag about being able to hit a target from 2 metres away 100% of the time? Of course not. So why do you brag about the Enterprise being able to consistently score hits with beam phasers on small targets when they're within 500 metres, and act as though this will somehow allow them to wipe out enemy fighters before they get in missile range?

Also *goes to the area where one should never go....game mechanics* even if you were to use X-Wing games for info....missile range for fighters would still be more than the usual ranges ST ships seem to engage at....

I dont recall them ever hitting anything particularly far away very accurately, nevermind something only a few meters in each dimension with a small target profile within that and which is most likely manouvering eratically to avoid being hit.....

Come to think of it has anything in ST ever manouvered eratically to avoid fire?
IIRC what passes for evasive manouvers in ST should in itself really shoot down any accuracy claims....

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-02-17 01:02pm

[quote="Darth Wong"]
Alyeska, find me one example of TNG and beyond Starfleet ships hitting small, maneuvering fighters with their beam phasers at anything but point-blank range.
[quote]

Would the Ferengi missile that Worf shot down in "The Price" count?

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-02-17 02:11pm

Ted C wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Alyeska, find me one example of TNG and beyond Starfleet ships hitting small, maneuvering fighters with their beam phasers at anything but point-blank range.

Would the Ferengi missile that Worf shot down in "The Price" count?

Missiles in scifi tend to be actually easier to hit because they tend to travel on a fixed course, rather than bouncing, rolling, and juking like a fighter.