More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

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General Zod
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by General Zod »

Starglider wrote: I don't see why not. The games industry has been converging on movie industry budgets, management style and general practices for years. Both industries now employ a few actors, hordes of digital artists and legions of technical and marketing people.
They're aimed at different audiences looking for different things, and multi-mullion dollar game budgets are a relatively new idea. Frankly I don't give a shit how amazing a game's writing is if the actual gameplay itself is boring as fuck.
Yeah, you fail Business 101. No matter how much of a cash pile you have, new expenditure is evaluated on a cost/probable return basis. In any case Valve would probably prefer to spend the cash hiring some more mod teams to make full games rather than licensing external engines; it's their model and it works for them.
Which counters my point that they could afford it if they want to. . .how?
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by Starglider »

General Zod wrote:Which counters my point that they could afford it if they want to. . .how?
It isn't fair to criticise the production team for decisions (like licensing a new engine) that they could never get approved by the board. If you think it's wrong that the board are soulless businessmen who care only about profits, not artistic value or maximum product quality, then that criticism applies to just about every company in existence.
Stark wrote:ME can be finished to 80% in 8 hours; my first run through hitting everthing took 23. Still a fuckload longer than walking through HL2.
Kind of off-topic, but 'can be finished in' is of little relevance. You are almost certainly an outlier, and you can speedrun most games if you put your mind to it. Gameplay hours is one of those metrics where you really have to aggregate over a lot of players, or at least reviewers.
And my point wasn't art direction; it was his argument that HL2 is a spiritual experience due to the amazing drama.
Yes well obviously that's bullshit. HL2 did the same thing HL1 did; it had good characterisation and strong worldbuilding, for an FPS of the time. When the player can't directly affect the story with gameplay, which they can't in everything except RPGs, you need an economy of storytelling, which HL2 achieved. If you let the writers get out of hand and drink the 'story is everything' kool aid you get Metal Gear Solid; hours and hours of unskippable nonsensical cutscenes.

Personally the only game I could call a 'spiritual experience' without laughing would be Planescape: Torment, and that was only possible because it was interactive fiction (very pretty and well written IF) with some Baldur's Gate combat tacked on to add variety.
The seashore/cliff road section WAS the only part of the game that wasn't bland as fuck, but that doesn't make HL2 interesting.
The Citadel's design was pretty striking, but the major problem with it was that the pretty bits were all in the cutscenes bits where you were strapped into a carrier and couldn't move. Major fail there, no good reason why those couldn't have been backdrops to actual gameplay. To be fair Episode 1 does fix that a bit.
Turns out everyone involved is a giant fanboy?
Turns out that sweeping absolutes make you impossible to take seriously?
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by Vendetta »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote: Deus Ex is a gigantic game offering as many ways of getting through the game as a player can concieve. It is literally possible to complete Deus Ex without J.C. Denton killing a single person, and with only like three absolutely required to die (2 if you exploit a glitch to get someone to open a door that's not supposed to be opened without someone dieing.) Or you can slaughter your way through the game. You can be a guile-filled sneaky spy, or you can walk into a battlefield a juggernaut.
It's technically possible to get through Deus Ex without killing anyone, but that doesn't make it nonlinear. You have a linear set of goals which you must accomplish and a small amount of wiggle room, usually amounting to a few minutes at a time of variation between paths, in how to accomplish them. Furthermore, the extreme minimalist challenges are most often based on rote learning of level paths and frequent saving and loading, which means to the vast majority of the audience they may as well not exist anyway. Likewise, although the skill system allows the appearance of guiding your character's abilities, many of the skills are varying degrees of useless and there are enough skill points awarded to buy all the ones that are actually practical, so there is no real "choice" involved.
Contrast this with Mass Effect. The only options you get are to be a shining paragon of sweetness and niceness, or be a gigantic douchecock, and to decide which of your allies lives or dies, without even an option to risk it all on an ultra-difficult gambit to save them both. It's not a branching story, it's one story, with only one real ending and a few variables to that ending, whereas Deus Ex gives you three distinct endings, all of them acomplished in different ways, none of them ultra-shiny and sparkling clean.
Except since the endings were essentially "press button A, B, or C" with no actual ramifications to your choice at any point you weren't actually choosing anything beyond what cutscene you saw for pressing your chosen button.
It's a game with more mind-fucks than the original Matrix movie,
Since The Matrix was a straightforward sci-fi romp, this is not hard. Wolfenstein 3D has more mindfucks than The Matrix.
Deus Ex was a great role-playing shooter, giving you complete freedom to choose how JC develops and what his abilities are; with an incredible story to boot, whereas Mass Effect was just kind of sad. Sure, it was a good story, but it wasn't a great story, nor was it a great game.
It was an average-to-bad shooter, the weapons were mostly crap and the skill system by which a trained counter terrorism agent couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn was hilarious, and the enemy AI consisted of running around like a ritalin starved five year old. The vague saving grace of the game as a shooter was the stealth mechanism, which didn't rely on skill points, but was still nowhere near as good as Thief.
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by Stark »

Sorry I thought you could substantiate your 'is compelling' beyond 'is used by fanboys to make fan videos'. The effort argument is balls because people made that shit on Xboxs ingame.

I struggle to actually remember any of the attempts of HL2 to have a story. You show up, you run from the cops, you do what you're told, you lead the cops to a black guy, you go rescue him, you stage a revolution that will result in the destruction of the human race and get stuck on a log ride with a platform puzzle at the end. Did I miss anything? I have absolutely no idea how anyone can consider any Halflife character compelling before Episode 1. You could replace Alyx with a foreshadowing machine and the black guy with a gold bar and the game wouldn't change.

It's particularly amusing because I'm constantly told HL has a story and Gears doesn't, so I've got to imagine the definition of 'story' changes when you get really, really fat/fanboyish.
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by Starglider »

Stark wrote:Sorry I thought you could substantiate your 'is compelling'
Previous arguments have demonstrated that it is impossible to substantiate 'compelling', because you don't accept 'lots of reviewers/critics' like it, you don't accept 'lots of players like it', you don't accept lists of specific nice features because some previous game somewhere had something like each one, obviously you don't accept personal opinion - so in short there is nothing that would convince you. I like talking about game design but I am not going to engage in the impossible task of trying to convince you of anything.
Did I miss anything?
Yes, but who cares, because you could toss off a similar three-sentence summary (and the exact same character dismissals) of any game in existence.
It's particularly amusing because I'm constantly told HL has a story and Gears doesn't, so I've got to imagine the definition of 'story' changes when you get really, really fat/fanboyish.
Gears 1 made minimal efforts at worldbuilding or characterisation. It was a squad of generic soldiers fighting vaguely defined monsters in piles of rubble, and that was that. Gears 1 failed on story and variety, not just compared to HL2, compared to Halo or in fact the majority of AAA FPSes. The only major things it had going for it were making gameplay work with a heavy cover-based focus, better than average friendly NPC AI, and making really gritty depressing visuals of ruins - not that it was the first to do these things, but it was the first AAA title to do them well.

Gears 2 is a different proposition. It has an actual story, more characterisation, more backstory, a lot more environment variety etc. While I don't personally find it as interesting as Half Life's setting, they are certainly comparable, and anyone who writes off GoW2 as plotless is certainly an idiot.
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

HL2 was great for it's day. Is it dated now? Yes, it is; in the same way, I contend, that Empire Strikes Back is dated.

It's still highly-enjoyable to me, but I find the Episodes much moreso. That's why I'm waiting for Episode three.

Inasmuch as you called my sad, I'm calling you a :wanker: . I know that Alyx Vance is a fictional character, but it's called immersion. When you're playing an RPG, immersion is brought about by good storytelling. So, too, is it with Half-Life 2's episodes; such as the bit where your flashlight inevitably goes out in the dark, and Alyx makes a zombie sound.

Scripted? Yes, of course it's scripted. That doesn't mean it didn't scare the bejeebus out of me when I first heard it, then I started laughing when I realized that I'd been the victim of a "Gotcha." Immersion is what will lead a player to prioritize going to Alyx's rescue through a horde of zombies, even when Alyx (a) has very rapidly regenerating HP, (b) an infinte supply of ammunition, and (c) can auto-kill zombies with any of several scripted martial arts maneouvers. As a pure gamer, you'd never do that, but as aplayer getting into the spirit of things, you damn well can and will leap over zombies and get clawed to the tune of 50 HP of damage in your rush to go and shotgun the ever-loving daylights out of the zombies swarming around Alyx.

Everybody will do that in a game where there's a fragile escort-quest NPC in risk of dieing, simply because if the NPC dies they fail the game. While it's true that Alyx can die, and it's true that it will cause you to fail, that will almost never happen short of you practically going out of your way to train zombies to her or whatever. That doesn't matter if you're actually playing HL2:Ep1 or 2, because you can sink into the story; immerse yourself in it - and then you'd have to be one cold son-of-a-bitch to hear an Ally in trouble and not want to go help them, even if as a gamer you know damn well she'll simply martial arts-kill those three zombies before they come close to killing her.

That is where VALVe's strength lies. Frankly, if they don't update the engine from Episode 2 at all beyond creating the new art resources nessessary, and continue to expand and expound upon the characterization of the NPCs and the having of a non-faceless, non-generic NPC ally who can take care of themselves, I'd be satisfied with HL2:Ep3.

But they won't do that. They're VALVe. I don't know what they have in store, but I have the utmost confidence it will be awesome.


I just kind of hope they took my long-ago suggestion to give Freeman a big-ass truck to heart. Or at least let him keep the Charger, I liked that Charger.
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Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by Stark »

Starglider wrote:Previous arguments have demonstrated that it is impossible to substantiate 'compelling', because you don't accept 'lots of reviewers/critics' like it, you don't accept 'lots of players like it', you don't accept lists of specific nice features because some previous game somewhere had something like each one, obviously you don't accept personal opinion - so in short there is nothing that would convince you. I like talking about game design but I am not going to engage in the impossible task of trying to convince you of anything.
HINT: examples would help you. Don't whinge because you made a subjective statement and are appalled I disagree. Why would I accept 'people like it' as support for the argument 'people like it'?
Yes, but who cares, because you could toss off a similar three-sentence summary (and the exact same character dismissals) of any game in existence.
Examples of where it's wrong or where the 'drama' is might help you; nobody is claiming anything about other games.
Gears 1 made minimal efforts at worldbuilding or characterisation. It was a squad of generic soldiers fighting vaguely defined monsters in piles of rubble, and that was that.
Totally untrue; it just didn't have reams of exposition. You just didn't pay attention. Much of the start of Gears2 was obvious from Gears1; just because there aren't expository characters (that we're in love with) like Alyx doesn't mean there's no plot or 'worldbuilding'.
Gears 1 failed on story and variety, not just compared to HL2, compared to Halo or in fact the majority of AAA FPSes. The only major things it had going for it were making gameplay work with a heavy cover-based focus, better than average friendly NPC AI, and making really gritty depressing visuals of ruins - not that it was the first to do these things, but it was the first AAA title to do them well.
Uh oh, sounds like you don't like it and I can't change your mind. Should I get butthurt now, or later?
Gears 2 is a different proposition. It has an actual story, more characterisation, more backstory, a lot more environment variety etc. While I don't personally find it as interesting as Half Life's setting, they are certainly comparable, and anyone who writes off GoW2 as plotless is certainly an idiot.
Almost nothing in Gears2 (beyond giant worms and Jacinto having a giant cavern under it for no reason) isn't from Gears1. The only real storytelling focus is Dominic and Maria, which is hardly the focus of the series and was ALSO in Gears1.

But hey, you prefer 'some magic aliens conquered the world with teleporters, go solve it with a glock and a shit car', so I guess I should be appalled by your subjective taste. Whoops, I used too many examples!
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by Starglider »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:I just kind of hope they took my long-ago suggestion to give Freeman a big-ass truck to heart.
That makes no sense at all. How would that produce good gameplay? The muscle car was already an unmaneuverable pig; ok for the long driving sections but deeply frustrating when you tried to use it in combat at the end. A 'big truck' doesn't go with the character or the game. Big ungainly vehicles are only fun when they're tanks and you can blow lots of shit up with them.
Or at least let him keep the Charger, I liked that Charger.
The most interesting vehicle in the first three parts was the airboat, because the handling felt fresh, not the same driving you get in every GTA clone ever.

Anyway, if E3 is set in an arctic area you'll presumably get an appropriate vehicle, a sno-cat possibly. Even if the environment was the same based on past track record I doubt they Valve would include the exact same vehicle you spent most of the previous game driving. I'd prefer to see a player-controllable helicopter, both because I like them and because an air vehicle would be a genuine novelty for the series, but sadly I don't think the Source engine is up to it.
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Starglider wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:I just kind of hope they took my long-ago suggestion to give Freeman a big-ass truck to heart.
That makes no sense at all. How would that produce good gameplay? The muscle car was already an unmaneuverable pig; ok for the long driving sections but deeply frustrating when you tried to use it in combat at the end. A 'big truck' doesn't go with the character or the game. Big ungainly vehicles are only fun when they're tanks and you can blow lots of shit up with them.
Think "Rebel Battlewagon." Think Gordon in the driver's seat of a big-ass, eight-wheeled old Soviet military truck with command of a mounted "big boom" type of gun, Alyx above in a cupola with a mounted airboat gun (or possibly both of these guns under Gordon's control,) and six or so Rebels in the back with submachine guns and/or AR2s, firing as bad guys swarm the sides. Driving along the sides of a high, snow-covered mountain pass, in which the player must balance the need for speed (Strider!) with the need to not slip on ice and snow and go plummeting to a death.

Possibly with a really big gravity gun in the back, or at least a crane, for moving obstacles, both out of your way, and into the Combine's way.

Or at least let him keep the Charger, I liked that Charger.
The most interesting vehicle in the first three parts was the airboat, because the handling felt fresh, not the same driving you get in every GTA clone ever.
And as for the Charger, I liked that Charger. Granted, in battle it was a pain, but it was really, really great for the long-haul driving, that was, surprisingly, a lot of fun. Obviously it shouldn't be all of it.

I liked the airboat, too, but it was a jalopy. I liked the Charger because it was a Dodge Frigging Charger. It wasn't some cobbled-together piece of barely-holding-on crap, it was a stripped-down, suped-up, honest-to-god, 426 Hemi-roaring muscle car, perfect for flattening the Combine, Zombies, and (especially) Zombines.

Frankly, to top that in "awesome vehicles Gordon gets his hands on," you'd pretty much have to rig a sequence in which Gordon pilots a Strider or an old Soviet-style armoured train.
Anyway, if E3 is set in an arctic area you'll presumably get an appropriate vehicle, a sno-cat possibly. Even if the environment was the same based on past track record I doubt they Valve would include the exact same vehicle you spent most of the previous game driving. I'd prefer to see a player-controllable helicopter, both because I like them and because an air vehicle would be a genuine novelty for the series, but sadly I don't think the Source engine is up to it.
Well, you also need to consider continuity: Gordon lost his buggy, and he abandoned the airboat. At the end of Episode 2, he still has the Charger, and as VALVe have been picking up end-to-beginning, I'd like to see it come back, if only to drive Eli's corpse somewhere in a vain hope for emergency medical attention, or to deliver it to the rebel who will be taking it from him, or even just driving it up to the helipad after Eli's funeral. Possibly with a comment from someone about how it's sad to see it go - probably not Alyx, since she's just lost her dad. Maybe the Rebel who modified it, or Kleiner promising to take good care of it.

Anyway, a sno-cat would be cool, but it seems likely that a large portion of the epiode will be taking place aboard the Borealis; while technically it would be a vehicle, Gordon's there to demolish it, and he can't bloody well pilot a ship out of a mountainside. He's Gordon Freeman, not Montgomery Scott. Chances are the vehicle segment, if they cheap out, will just be Gordon pulling door-gunning duty on the chopper Alyx will be flying. If they don't cheap out, of course, they can give us several segments. That would be good.

Also, no matter what, there has to be a train. In all three installments of the HL2 saga, there's been the interior of a train:
In Half-Life 2, Gordon arrives at City 17 inside a commuter train car.
In Half-Life 2, Episode 1, Gordon and Alyx escape the Citadel in a Combine train car full of Stalkers.
In Half-Life 2, Episode 2, Gordon wakes up in the inside of a train car, and has to climb his way out of one.

Kind of like LucasFilm projects and 1132 appearing.
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Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
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Re: More Cake is Coming (Portal 2)

Post by Undead Unicorn »

Well at the very least their keeping things interesting in Value. Maybe we can get Half Life ep 3 out soon now.
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