The census is racist?

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Formless
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The census is racist?

Post by Formless »

Horseshit.
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Fully one-quarter of the space on this year's form is taken up with questions of race and ethnicity, which are clearly illegitimate and none of the government's business (despite the New York Times' assurances to the contrary on today's editorial page). So until we succeed in building the needed wall of separation between race and state, I have a proposal. Question 9 on the census form asks "What is Person 1's race?" (and so on, for other members of the household). My initial impulse was simply to misidentify my race so as to throw a monkey wrench into the statistics; I had fun doing this on the personal-information form my college required every semester, where I was a Puerto Rican Muslim one semester, and a Samoan Buddhist the next. But lying in this constitutionally mandated process is wrong. Really — don't do it.

Instead, we should answer Question 9 by checking the last option — "Some other race" — and writing in "American." It's a truthful answer but at the same time is a way for ordinary citizens to express their rejection of unconstitutional racial classification schemes. In fact, "American" was the plurality ancestry selection for respondents to the 2000 census in four states and several hundred counties.

So remember: Question 9 — "Some other race" — "American". Pass it on.
So according to this douchbag, even asking about the demographics of the nation's populace is "illegitimate and none of the government's business". What the fuck? Has this moron ever cracked open an atlas of the world? The census exists to gather accurate data about the nation, not to fuel your wishful thinking that "there is no such thing as race, there is no such thing as race, there is no such think as race!!!". You expect the government to know our religions, our incomes, who we live with... but apparently knowing our ethnicity is where you draw the line. It couldn't be that not being allowed to talk about race makes people more racist. And his cop out at the end where he tries to weasel out of lying on a government form by asserting people should answer with a non-existent "American" race just tickles me pink. Yeah, that's not just as dishonest at all, is it?

And if you are wondering where I got this, apparently over 100 people like this in Google Reader. Does anyone else have any stories of people getting too sensitive about race for their own good they want to share?
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Netko »

Yes, the question as it is now is racist, horribly archaic and antiquated. They mix responses based on the failed concept of race (the first three), with actual ethnicities which they call races (seriously, a Laosian race?). Its a kludge of an truly racist question it started as in 1790 (that alone should give you a clue that the question should probably be overhauled), with a bunch of ethnicities tacked on haphazardly, probably as their interest groups complained.

It produces anomalous results all over the place - for instance, say I had an US green card and was in the US so I had to answer the census. Now, sure, racially I'm white - but what the question is about is actually my culture/ethnicity, and the white option is horribly broken for an Slavic immigrant because it presumes (and that appearance is enhanced by there actually being enumerated some ethnicities) an Angloamerican background. So what do I do? Answer as part of the first group of answers which are about race (and select white even with the wrong presumptions) or answer in the other field in the second group of answers where the ethnicities are enumerated?

See, most other countries do this more sanely and ask about your actual ethnicity which is a much better indicator of cultural and values affiliation then the broken race concept.

A much more sane question for the US census would be something like "What is Person 1's ethnicity?". With answers being:
- Anglo-American
- African-American
- Native American or Alaskan Native
- Hispanic-American
etc. the next few most numerous ethnicities followed by an "other" field.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Hillary »

Netko wrote:Yes, the question as it is now is racist, horribly archaic and antiquated. They mix responses based on the failed concept of race (the first three), with actual ethnicities which they call races (seriously, a Laosian race?). Its a kludge of an truly racist question it started as in 1790 (that alone should give you a clue that the question should probably be overhauled), with a bunch of ethnicities tacked on haphazardly, probably as their interest groups complained.

It produces anomalous results all over the place - for instance, say I had an US green card and was in the US so I had to answer the census. Now, sure, racially I'm white - but what the question is about is actually my culture/ethnicity, and the white option is horribly broken for an Slavic immigrant because it presumes (and that appearance is enhanced by there actually being enumerated some ethnicities) an Angloamerican background. So what do I do? Answer as part of the first group of answers which are about race (and select white even with the wrong presumptions) or answer in the other field in the second group of answers where the ethnicities are enumerated?

See, most other countries do this more sanely and ask about your actual ethnicity which is a much better indicator of cultural and values affiliation then the broken race concept.

A much more sane question for the US census would be something like "What is Person 1's ethnicity?". With answers being:
- Anglo-American
- African-American
- Native American or Alaskan Native
- Hispanic-American
etc. the next few most numerous ethnicities followed by an "other" field.
Whilst not disagreeing that the question could be clearer, why is it racist?
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Re: The census is racist?

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Netko wrote:A much more sane question for the US census would be something like "What is Person 1's ethnicity?". With answers being:
- Anglo-American
- African-American
- Native American or Alaskan Native
- Hispanic-American
I don't get this fascination with the "-American" suffix. What's it supposed to mean, anyway? Born there? :?
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Flagg »

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Netko wrote:A much more sane question for the US census would be something like "What is Person 1's ethnicity?". With answers being:
- Anglo-American
- African-American
- Native American or Alaskan Native
- Hispanic-American
I don't get this fascination with the "-American" suffix. What's it supposed to mean, anyway? Born there? :?
Pretty much. But the term "African-American" (I refuse to use it) in the US essentially means "black" now. Which is hilarious when blacks from other countries are referred to as "African-American".
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by eion »

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Netko wrote:A much more sane question for the US census would be something like "What is Person 1's ethnicity?". With answers being:
- Anglo-American
- African-American
- Native American or Alaskan Native
- Hispanic-American
I don't get this fascination with the "-American" suffix. What's it supposed to mean, anyway? Born there? :?

One could ask the same thing about French-Canadians, Black-Canadians, Greek-Canadians, Asian-Canadians, etc.

Immigrant rich countries often use the <ethnic group>-<country name> formula to recognize long-term residency/citizenship of your home country and your place(s) or your ancestor's place(s) of origin, whereas a mono-ethnic country like Iceland can get by pretty well with native/non-native Icelander.

If I wanted to get very specific, I would have to list myself as Finnish-Scottish-Irish-Italian-German-Cherokee-American, but American seems to work in most cases.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Lusankya »

I don't know about Canada, but in Australia we'd just call the ethnicity "Greek" or "Asian" or "Black/African"- none of this hyphenated crap, which I think is a mainly US phoenomenon. I guess you could use Greek-Australian or whatever, but then everyone would think you were a tosser.

French-Canadians are a special case, mainly because it's short for French speaking Canadians.
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Re: The census is racist?

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Re: The census is racist?

Post by wolveraptor »

Netko wrote:A much more sane question for the US census would be something like "What is Person 1's ethnicity?". With answers being:
- Anglo-American
- African-American
- Native American or Alaskan Native
- Hispanic-American
etc. the next few most numerous ethnicities followed by an "other" field.
Doesn't this list leave out every non-Anglo white in the country? Of which there are more of than blacks or Native Americans or Latinos?
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by General Zod »

Flagg wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:
Netko wrote:A much more sane question for the US census would be something like "What is Person 1's ethnicity?". With answers being:
- Anglo-American
- African-American
- Native American or Alaskan Native
- Hispanic-American
I don't get this fascination with the "-American" suffix. What's it supposed to mean, anyway? Born there? :?
Pretty much. But the term "African-American" (I refuse to use it) in the US essentially means "black" now. Which is hilarious when blacks from other countries are referred to as "African-American".
It's even more hilarious when you have white people from South Africa who are currently living in the US.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Lagmonster »

eion wrote:One could ask the same thing about French-Canadians, Black-Canadians, Greek-Canadians, Asian-Canadians, etc.
"French-Canadian" is a unique term that is all over the government (although it's become 'Francophone' and 'Anglophone' recently), because Canada has two 'distinct societies' in addition to two official languages. We also have dozens of unique white subcultures, such as the Newfies, Franco-Ontarioans, Westerners (actually, middle-Canada, but we call it 'west' because it's not Ontario, and Ontario is the only part of Canada that actually matters), Northern-Ontarioans and whatever they call themselves in Vancouver when they're not stoned. But I haven't seen any overuse of the -Canadian suffix to describe non-white citizens in Canada.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Oskuro »

Couldn't there be independent options for genetic ethnicity and cultural background? Even making them multiple option, since it's possible to be a half black/half asian descended from Taiwanese and Central-European immigrants.

I personally find it distasteful when ethnicity is linked to cultural background.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by eion »

LordOskuro wrote:Couldn't there be independent options for genetic ethnicity and cultural background? Even making them multiple option, since it's possible to be a half black/half asian descended from Taiwanese and Central-European immigrants.

I personally find it distasteful when ethnicity is linked to cultural background.
The Census Bureau tries to use the terms commonly used by respondents, rather than create terms that may be more accurate but less familiar to respondents. The whole point is to get the most comprehensive and accurate response possible. People tend to label themselves pretty consistently.

And there is a spot to write in your own choice for "race", which will then be tabulated in some fashion with the rest. And aside from listing how many people are in your household, all the questions are optional.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Lord Pounder »

What happens if a white guy born in cape town declares himself african american?

I know how insulting these things can be. In Northern Ireland you have to declare on each and every job application you fill in what religion you are. I can declare till I'm blue in the face that I don't belong to either Catholic nor Protestant religion but because I was born in a certain area of Belfast and went to a certain school I am forever classed as Protestant despite the fact I was never christened or baptised and only go to church for weddings and funerals.

It became even more of a farce last year when Sinn Fein tried to tell the Fair Employment commission, the people who regulate these questionaires, that immigrant Polish workers should not count as Catholic as it would inflate their numbers.
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Re: The census is racist?

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LordOskuro wrote:I personally find it distasteful when ethnicity is linked to cultural background.
But on the other hand that's a question of how the data is used or analyzed, not about whether or not its right to collect it in the first place.
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Re: The census is racist?

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Lord Pounder wrote:What happens if a white guy born in cape town declares himself african american?
If he's properly been naturalized, he causes confusion and consternation with the literal truth. In fact, plenty of made for TV movies have played with just such this confusion- a black American family taking in a foreign exchange student from Africa who they expect to be black but who turns out to be an Afrikaner, for example.
'African American' definitely needs to be replaced as a term, for reasons exactly like that.
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Re: The census is racist?

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I have seen people react in a similar manner to the Australian census. They say I am Australian and prefer to put that rather than <insert ethnic group here>. In reality I just think of it as them asking for you ethnicity rather than your nationality. Because all citizens are Australian but we are a nation of immigrants and as such are composed of multi ethnic groups.
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Re: The census is racist?

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If you don't like any of the categories given you can choose "Other" and write in "Human" if you so desire. The Race Police will NOT knock on your door and make you change it. The Census (in its present form) wants to know how you SELF-IDENTIFY. You can also check off multiple ethnicity, so if you're of Euro-Afro-Asian-American Native ancestry and born in Mexico City feel free to check off a half dozen choices if they apply. The government is well aware that MANY people in the US are multi-racial - our President, for example - and don't cleanly fit into any category.

Having a green card has nothing to do with it. The Census tries to count EVERYONE, legal or not. (They also are barred from sharing information with the immigration service. I know no one believes this. I have my doubts, too. But they REALLY hammered us with that in training last year, I can only imagine more so this year).

Is the Census racist? Well, the paragraph in the constitution authorizing it sure is - it contains the infamous "3/5 clause" where blacks were counted as 3/5 of a person. That bit, however, no longer applies as of 1870.

Why would anyone want to identify race/ethnicity? Well, for one thing, it does impact social services. Whether or not government/public/emergency information is given in more than just English is frequently determined by Census results. If you go to, say, Chicago City Hall they have all sorts of public health and safety information in a couple dozen languages - and which languages those are are determined by Census results. Areas with large Native populations have different health concerns (high diabetes, oddly enough a lower than average Cesearian rate with no more maternal labor and delivery risk than other ethnicities) than urban blacks (high blood pressure, high risk of stroke) or whites (higher rates of skin cancer and cystic fibrosis). This can definitely affect public planning for funding of health programs. I realize some people feel recognizing that different ancestry carries different health risks/benefits is somehow racist, but it's not - it's biology and science.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Oskuro »

Formless wrote:But on the other hand that's a question of how the data is used or analyzed, not about whether or not its right to collect it in the first place.
As Lord Pounder's example pointed out, if the system leads to inaccurate analysis, it should be overhauled. Let's consider that these systems are probably old and based on a time were such assumptions applied more often.

As another form of example, around here it is common for families to adopt kids from Asia or Africa (it's even a fad of sorts among wealthy people :| ), so you get perfectly black or asian kids who are culturally more Catalonian than I am (I come from a different part of Spain), and from a census point of view their ethnicity should be mostly irrelevant, since they are the children of local families, and should be theoretically undistinguishable from whatever natural children they might have had.
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Re: The census is racist?

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mr friendly guy wrote:I have seen people react in a similar manner to the Australian census. They say I am Australian and prefer to put that rather than <insert ethnic group here>. In reality I just think of it as them asking for you ethnicity rather than your nationality. Because all citizens are Australian but we are a nation of immigrants and as such are composed of multi ethnic groups.
I haven't really seen anyone self-describe as an "African Australian" though. I should call myself "English Australian", having both an English birth cert and Australian citizenship.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Phantasee »

It's one thing to refer to Macedonian Canadians, because that's a group of Canadians who were either born there or were originally from there. But nobody is going to call themselves a Macedonian-Canadian. The key is the hyphen. We don't do it, beyond referring to the French-Canadians, and that's because they're "separate yet equal" or as I like to call them, "Canada's special children".

Frankly, people who do hyphenate their national identity are viewed as pretty fucking odd around here.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by eion »

Phantasee wrote:It's one thing to refer to Macedonian Canadians, because that's a group of Canadians who were either born there or were originally from there. But nobody is going to call themselves a Macedonian-Canadian. The key is the hyphen. We don't do it, beyond referring to the French-Canadians, and that's because they're "separate yet equal" or as I like to call them, "Canada's special children".

Frankly, people who do hyphenate their national identity are viewed as pretty fucking odd around here.
A hyphen? You'll be glad to hear that most places I go it's "African American" not "African-American", but seriously: a fucking hypheen? Here's the actual question from the actual Census 2010 form:
Census 2010 wrote:9. What is Person 1’s race? Mark  one or more boxes.
 White
 Black, African Am., or Negro
 American Indian or Alaska Native — Print name of enrolled or principal tribe.
 Asian Indian
 Chinese
 Filipino
 Other Asian — Print race, for
 example, Hmong, Laotian, Thai,
 Pakistani, Cambodian, and so on.
 Japanese
 Korean
 Vietnamese
 Native Hawaiian
 Guamanian or Chamorro
 Samoan
 Other Pacific Islander — Print race, for example, Fijian, Tongan, and so on.
 Some other race — Print race.
And before anyone opens up the next can of worms and raises hell about Negro being an option please remember that 1) it's being removed from the 2020 Census, and 2) The question is about self-identification, so you can mark "Some other race" and write in "JEDI" for all they care.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Phantasee »

I was talking about how people identify their national identity in Canada. It's a subtle difference, but it's there. The individual does not use it, but the group may, because how else are you going to refer to Canadians from Macedonia/India/Togo? But you won't see Macedonian-Canadian, Indo-Canadian, or Togo-Canadian (Togan-Canadian?) written by members of those groups as descriptors of themselves.

You do see African-American, Asian-American, or Filipino-American written by people in the US when referring to individuals, though.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Ypoknons »

The -American suffix does capture a certain mentality, trying to encapsulate an identity through a confused sense of nationality, culture and ethnicity. Maybe it's adequate in some situations, when there's not a lot of movement in the community, but in my experience it starts breaking down when things start getting a bit more international with people with more longer and complex backgrounds. As pointed out earlier, there's a difference between cultural and ethnic backgrounds. I know ethnic Chinese in Hong Kong who are super-Westernized, and then there's all the Canadian and Australian immigrants who still culturally very Chinese. And don't make me start on all the embassy kids I knew growing up. Everyone has their own mix.

I think the suffix is just there to remind people that these groups have substantial ties to the US, but it's still too vague and confuses nationality, culture and ethnicity. There's no alternative to listening and finding the nuances of someone's background, a one or two word nationalethnocultural descriptor isn't going to capture a life story for you.
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Re: The census is racist?

Post by Mayabird »

Ryushikaze wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:What happens if a white guy born in cape town declares himself african american?
If he's properly been naturalized, he causes confusion and consternation with the literal truth. In fact, plenty of made for TV movies have played with just such this confusion- a black American family taking in a foreign exchange student from Africa who they expect to be black but who turns out to be an Afrikaner, for example.
'African American' definitely needs to be replaced as a term, for reasons exactly like that.
There was my ol' college friend who was of Egyptian descent, so he called himself African American. He was sorta Arab looking, so not exactly Aryan Übermensch but definitely not black. He attended a majority black school system in the U.S. Between that and his open atheism, hilarity ensued. And by "hilarity" I mean "threatening to put the ACLU on his speed-dial if they didn't stop with the stupid shit like threatening to expel him" because they really didn't like it. He had balls.
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