And they don't have this why?

[Stofsk]

Not according to the narrative. One ISD seems to be countered by 3 Dreadnaughts. This was when General Bel Iblis entered the fight in 'Dark Force Rising' IIRC.

Which would make 200 Dreadnaughts worth 66 ISDs, or thereabouts. And it doesn't matter anyway, because like I said, the point wasn't that Dreadnaughts were supercool and p. rad, it was that the Empire and New Republic fleets were more evenly matched now than they had ever been, and a fresh injection of ships would have tipped the balance to whoever got to them first.

As I recall 3 Dreadnoughts could sort of duke it ought at least in the short term, but it took the arrival of all six to actually overwhelm the Judicator at the end of Dark Force Rising (and evne then they were using ion cannons to do it)

Ah. It's been ages since I read the Thrawn trilogy, but I've been itching to for awhile now. Do you recall Bel Iblis' forces covering Han as they made their rendevouz to peregrine base? Having looked at the comic I see all those three dreadnaughts did was 'cover' Han and Lando from one ISD.

*snip*

Overall it may seem minimalist (and it kinda is) but its not neccesarily inconsistent with the scope of things - its all in how you look at it.

Yes, I agree. I especially liked your point about how it's not all about superweapons and insta-win 'strategies' like we get in the worst of the EU.

EDIT- Abacus, sorry if your thread is hijacked btw. As far as the OP is concerned, I would love to see another Tim Zahn book in the works, but I don't think there's much time in between the end of the duology and SQ with the onset of the Vong war. I was very interested in what Zahn was obliquely referring to some kind of hidden threat in the unknown regions in the duology, but I think the Vong war menace was just too stupid a plot to deal with, unfortunately.

[fractalsponge1]

Yes Thrawn must have had a huge fleet for the story to make any sense. I'm not arguing that, just that the 200 Dreadnaughts making a difference thing is stupid and needs to be retconned.

Having a new force of ships is well and good, but just because you have 200 ships doesn't necessarily mean anything if they can do very little. It'd be one thing if it were enough to roll up the other side's order of battle in a continuous string of massively uneven contests, say, adding 200 Star Dreadnoughts or something, but adding 0.001% of the total tonnage to the fray is not going to do that. Especially when you consider the reinforcement/redeployment speed involved. Out of tens thousands of frigate+level ships available, you will be able to achieve local parity against 200 new frigates. And a swarm fleet of light ships is going to take disproportionately heavier losses as you go than a smaller force of heavies; how long is 200 small, third-rate ships going to last in a galactic scale conflict?

It's like saying the British got 10 fourth-rates out of nowhere in 1805 for free. Will it make things easier and more convenient? Sure. Will it do squat to the strategic balance of power? No. The numbers do not make sense; it doesn't mean the general ideas for the story sucked. Add a zero or two and it'll make so much more sense.

[TC Pilot]

how long is 200 small, third-rate ships going to last in a galactic scale conflict?

Quite awhile, actually. Pellaeon still had some Katana dreadnoughts to throw at the Yuuzhan Vong forces at Borosk.

[fractalsponge1]

Quite awhile, actually. Pellaeon still had some Katana dreadnoughts to throw at the Yuuzhan Vong forces at Borosk.

Right, because that totally has 200 frigates affecting the galaxy make sense . Seriously, it's only acceptable if the opposing forces have the equivalent of hundreds of ISDs. But if that's the case, Kaine alone might have destroyed most of the New Republic mobile forces with Reaper and its escorts. We know he was around, relatively unbloodied, and held dozens of sectors according to the new Atlas. Presumably since he was military governor of Oversector Outer, he'd also have the associated Sector Groups as well. If the New Republic and its allies couldn't match that standard, it's an even more ridiculous sounding SOD-breaker.

It's not like fleets in SW behave like static garrisons tied to orbit - the kind of mobility seen should increase the threshhold of forces necessary to achieve decisive local superiority. 20 ISD equivalents added to Thrawn's personal ships is barely more than a single Sector Group equivalent. How many of those do you think are going to have to fight in trying to retake the Core? What are the odds you can almost always achieve decisive superiority with that? Even so, what kind of attrition rate is going to be likely? How hard do you want to wank Thrawn?

I have no problem with him rallying the Empire and leading a galaxy-shaking war. I just want it to feel like it might actually be galaxy shaking.

[TC Pilot]

Seriously, it's only acceptable if the opposing forces have the equivalent of hundreds of ISDs. But if that's the case, Kaine alone might have destroyed most of the New Republic mobile forces with Reaper and its escorts. We know he was around, relatively unbloodied, and held dozens of sectors according to the new Atlas. Presumably since he was military governor of Oversector Outer, he'd also have the associated Sector Groups as well. If the New Republic and its allies couldn't match that standard, it's an even more ridiculous sounding SOD-breaker.

Who exactly are you talking to in this paragraph?

It's not like fleets in SW behave like static garrisons tied to orbit

Actually, in many respects they do. Because hyperdrives grant opposing sides the ability to strike at nearly any point in the galaxy at will, the New Republic is basically forced to cover all its territory for the sake of political imperatives. The outlying worlds basically screamed bloody murder when the NRDF ceded ground to the YV to keep the Core secure. Take Coruscant, for example; not only was Thrawn able to strike at the New Republic capital, in spite of having basically no presence in the Core, but one of his first moves was to try and cut Coruscant's communications so it couldn't get the word out to the regional defense fleet. I'm also pretty sure the force Thrawn trounced at the start of HttE was a local militia, and we see from Specter of the Past the prevalence of individual planetary militias, which matches the NR's tendency to lean toward a confederated status. The Rebel Alliance's fleet was, after all, essentially donated from various worlds.

In consequence, though the New Republic had more territory and more ships than Thrawn through the whole campaign (albiet, notably, pretty much nothing heavier than a Star Cruiser), this force can't be brought to bear because it would neccesitate unacceptable political problems. The Katana fleet gives Thrawn immediate access to not only, to use your own analogy from earlier, a half dozen HMS Victories under the command of a half dozen Nelsons, but the ability to direct those ships at specific, concentrated points in the campaign, accelerating the rapid collapse of the New Republic in the face of his offensive.

Continuing along the lines of the analogy from earlier, would a dozen fourth-rates spread out around the entire Royal Navy decisively change the strategic situation? No, not really. But Thrawn didn't spread the Katana fleet around the entire Imperial Navy; he was bringing dozens of dreadnoughts to bear in single battles. Would a dozen clones of Nelson onboard a dozen fourth-rates at Trafalger have stomped the Franco-Spanish fleet a bit harder? Although naval history isn't my strong suit, I'm guessing yeah.

[Patroklos]

HMS Victory was not a fourth rate, but rather a first rate. An HMS Victory is the equivalent of an ISD, not a Dreadnaught. And the analogy fails further because while a fourth rate might be equivalent to a ship the size of a Dreadnaught relative to an ISD, a fouth rate is not necessarily obsolete like a Dreadnaught but rather is just a smaller contemporary vessel.

The proper analogy is if Britain had added 10 galley's to its fleet in 1805. Or if the US were to suddenly add 10 WWII era Destroyer Escorts to its current navy.

[Crazedwraith]

Star Wars has technological stasis stretching back for a few thousand years. The fact Dreadnaughts are a pre clone wars design doesn't make them outdated or obsolete.

[Patroklos]

Except that every media source that includes them makes a special effort to ensure we know they are obsolete...

[fractalsponge1]

I was aiming for an analogy of old, slow, obsolete ships with little individual value and which didn't fulfill any key roles particularly well. Maybe more like frigate-sized Indiamen by tonnage and firepower. Same technology, but low tactical value per ton. Man them with the best sailors in the world and they won't last in a straight up fight with a decently run 74.

[Raesene]

HMS Victory was not a fourth rate, but rather a first rate. An HMS Victory is the equivalent of an ISD, not a Dreadnaught. And the analogy fails further because while a fourth rate might be equivalent to a ship the size of a Dreadnaught relative to an ISD, a fouth rate is not necessarily obsolete like a Dreadnaught but rather is just a smaller contemporary vessel.

The proper analogy is if Britain had added 10 galley's to its fleet in 1805. Or if the US were to suddenly add 10 WWII era Destroyer Escorts to its current navy.

Victory, although a first rate, was one of the oldest ships of the line in service and still played a vital role for the RN. Depending on the situation, even older warships can fulfill useful roles - e.g. the old USN battleships during shore bombardment or old RN destroyers escorting convoys.

We are not told how long the Katana fleet was refitted and reequipped. Also, note that Thrawn used the dreadnoaughts together with more modern vessels. Assuming a task force like the one described at the start of TLC (1 ISD, six dreadnoaughts), the ISD might engage the major local warships while the dreadnoaughts form the protective screen against fighters or small capital ships. Better a weak defense line than none at all.

Fractalsponge1, don't underestimate Indiamen...

[TC Pilot]

HMS Victory was not a fourth rate, but rather a first rate.

Notice how when I said "a half dozen HMS Victories," instead of fractal's "dozen fourth-rates"

[fractalsponge1]

As I recall the Marengo squadron only withdrew because they thought the Indiamen were actually warships

And that's hardly a fair exchange rate, TC Pilot

[Raesene]

As I recall the Marengo squadron only withdrew because they thought the Indiamen were actually warships

A bluff, and thus perfect for Thrawn - remember the cloaked asteroid numbers game ?
He used apperances to his advantage t's the Legendary Katana Fleet (!!!) he has found and is using - who knows what kind of Supertech the Republic had built in there... looking at it from the public perception/morale angle, shooting through Ukio's planetary shield might have been considered possible due to him finding the fleet. Alliance intelligence found out how it was faked, but locas were pretty convinced, and IIRC, the trick was used at least once more.

If you are using them against local militia forces and not against the core main rebel fleet, you might not need first rates. Bpfassh (? the planet from HttE where Thrawn tested C'Baoth) had a few Carracks and fighter squadrons for defense. Against those, a task force as described (1 ISD, 6 DR) should be sufficient.

[Ritterin Sophia]

how long is 200 small, third-rate ships going to last in a galactic scale conflict?

Quite awhile, actually. Pellaeon still had some Katana dreadnoughts to throw at the Yuuzhan Vong forces at Borosk.

Speaking of how long a ship can last, the Hammerhead-class Cruiser was developed some time during the Sith Wars between 4,000 and 3,996 ABY and even original frames were still in use some 3,000 years later after numerous refits. A starship would be much longer lasting than a surface ship as you don't have to worry about elements in the atmosphere or water eroding the hull, if you have an airtight material lining the hull and support structure you can keep the same frame in use almost indefinitely and the only thing you'd have to worry about are the various systems throughout the ship, but you're going to replace them anyhow as technology advances.

[TC Pilot]

I'd forgotten about those. A millenia-long service record is kinda mind-boggling.

In any case, dreadnoughts were still in active service in both the New Republic (both as dreadnoughts and in the form of incredibly modified Assault frigates) and Imperial fleets.

[Stark]

how long is 200 small, third-rate ships going to last in a galactic scale conflict?

Quite awhile, actually. Pellaeon still had some Katana dreadnoughts to throw at the Yuuzhan Vong forces at Borosk.

Speaking of how long a ship can last, the Hammerhead-class Cruiser was developed some time during the Sith Wars between 4,000 and 3,996 ABY and even original frames were still in use some 3,000 years later after numerous refits. A starship would be much longer lasting than a surface ship as you don't have to worry about elements in the atmosphere or water eroding the hull, if you have an airtight material lining the hull and support structure you can keep the same frame in use almost indefinitely and the only thing you'd have to worry about are the various systems throughout the ship, but you're going to replace them anyhow as technology advances.

Depends what it's made of; metal does age.

[Patroklos]

Not only that, but like real vehicles frames warp/compress over periods of times from rapid acceleration/decceleration. Not to mention the radiation and any other exotic stuff these hulls will be exposed to while operating thoroughout the galaxy and its myraid enviroments. I doubt things like hyperspace jumps and reentering atmospheres are kind to vessels. Not that they matter singularly, but over time even routine things something is designed to withstand add up. Your car was designed to handle and does handle your 10 mile commute to work just fine. Now do it 10,000 times and see what you end up with.

And the fact that a few hundred examples of an old design exist is not really impressive. There are still dozens of mint condition model Ts out there but they are a drop in the bucket compared the thousands upon thousands of those built. And though they still exist and work, they are hardly up to modern standards.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ah. It's been ages since I read the Thrawn trilogy, but I've been itching to for awhile now. Do you recall Bel Iblis' forces covering Han as they made their rendevouz to peregrine base? Having looked at the comic I see all those three dreadnaughts did was 'cover' Han and Lando from one ISD.

Yup.

The New Republic had a fair number of Dreadnaughts, and at six hundred meters long each they were impressive enough warships. But even three of them working together would be hard pressed to take out an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Apparently, the Dreadnaughts' commander agreed. Even as the Star Destroyer behind the Lady Luck opened up with its huge turbolaser batteries, the Dreadnaughts began pelting the larger ship with a furious barrage of ion cannon blasts, trying to temporarily knock out enough of its systems for them to get away.

3 Dreadnaughts, but still couldn't realistically hope of taking out an ISD. This is reiterated later on in the novel when the Peremptory shows up to help the Judicator and its noted 3 Dreadnoughts are still insufficient to take out an ISD (and in this battle again they relied entirely on Ion cannons (even with all 6 DNs)

Requires somewhere between 4-6 to match the thing, 6 being the definite number. It may be higher, since all 6 Dreadnoughts focus on the Judicator stirctly with ion cannon fire, implying they could not take the thing down in direct fighting.

Yes, I agree. I especially liked your point about how it's not all about superweapons and insta-win 'strategies' like we get in the worst of the EU.

Meh. Superweapons don't bug me, its how they're implemented that is usually the problem. Hell, Mount Tantiss was the key to Thrawn's current campaign, so in a way its a superweapon.

Anyhow, my impressions from TTT wasn't that Thrawn somehow was going to gain an instawin with a few hundreds new warships and a few tens of thousands of new clones. Basically the impression I get is "If we don't stop Thrawn we'll eventually get steamrolled" since he has a source of unlimited troops now. And the fact they didnt know what else might be at Mount Tantiss. Thrawn had basically broken the long running stalemate of the previous two books and was able to slowly but surely begin his conquest. Given his early tactics in TLC, I'm guessing he made efforts at taking key military and industrial/agricultural centers (like Ukio) or whatever he could grab so he could start churning out more warships (he'd have needed them eventually to sustain his momentum.)

EDIT- Abacus, sorry if your thread is hijacked btw. As far as the OP is concerned, I would love to see another Tim Zahn book in the works, but I don't think there's much time in between the end of the duology and SQ with the onset of the Vong war. I was very interested in what Zahn was obliquely referring to some kind of hidden threat in the unknown regions in the duology, but I think the Vong war menace was just too stupid a plot to deal with, unfortunately.

Zahn's an okay writer, but his best work was the Thrawn Trilogy and everything else has been pretty lackluster. I haven't read alleigance of course, but Outbound Flight left me wondering why Thrawn was in there at all (never mind Car'Das or the races from Survivor's Quest.) That sort of habitual self-insertion is kinda what has been ruining his work for me really - I'd have liked to see more "new" stuff from him that didn't have to do with the Chiss or Emperor's Hands or the Unknown Regions in general or whatever...

Of course this is far from the "RARRRR MINIMALIST" frothing obsessive nerdrage Zahn inspires people like Hoth to rant about at the drop of a hat. For that matter I may have to go back and poke a few holes in his ranting since he's fucked up on a number of details (like the source of the 25,000 ISDs - it didn't originate with Zahn.. but hey when have facts ever gotten in the way of nerdrage?)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes Thrawn must have had a huge fleet for the story to make any sense. I'm not arguing that, just that the 200 Dreadnaughts making a difference thing is stupid and needs to be retconned.

Why? There'd been a prolonged stalemate between the NR forces and Thrawn's Imperials. Neither side (up until that time) really had the forces available to launch any sort of attack on the other until Thrawn grabbed the Katana fleet. One side launching an attack would necessitate exposing oneself to counter attack (or attack by some other force, like the various warlords in the galaxy, or just piracy in general). Thrawn is basically in the position of being the Rebels, which means he's suffering from logistics and some resource problems (eg he can't just rampantly build huge numbers of warships, and even then he can't do more than use conscripts for his forces. He has no Stormtroopers either.) The NR has a huge territory to defend, is coming off some financial difficulties (Eg Thyferra and the Krytos virus, nevermind financing a war they really weren't prepared for Post Endor) is having logistical problems of their own (so much they need to consider using smugglers and their own warships to keep trade and shipping going) and this being on top of the inherent flaws in the NR goverment as a rule.

The sudden injection of 200 warships into that equation changes things. That's ~200 warships (technically 185) the NR doesn't have. And while they are hardly on the scale of ISDs they're not exactly small or worthless warships either, because the other side isn't neccesarily demonstrating massive fleets either (SW as a rule doesn't go for huge numbers of Executors pounding away at each other, in case you haven't noticed. Even in the movies. There does seem a definite biase towards smaller ships whether you like it or not.) Anyhow, even having the potential to construct massive ships (which both sides do) that doesn't neccesarily mean its the best thing to do since your logistics and facilities may not neccesarily be able to handle it, and every big ship built means you don't have a given number of smaller ships to rely on. And smaller ships are easier to build, which means you can fortify your systems to some degree alot faster. It's all about tradeoffs).

Overall, it's not a dramatic change in the situation, but Thrawn wasn't taking the entire outer rim or core with just 200 ships. At best I recall him taking whole sectors at most, and a good deal of his tactics still relied on subterfuge and psychological warfare (the taking of Ukio and the blockade of Coruscant, for example.) As I already noted, Thrawn's campaign was more of a long term "threat" than an immediate short term "superweapon" type threat we usually get in an EU novel, and nothing in the novels (especially given all the latter details that have been incorporated into continuity) is problematic with this, other than an annoying tendency for people to latch onto Zahn as a point-scoring means of "minimalism bashing." and don't really bother giving it (or the concept of "minimalism" any real goddamn thought.



Having a new force of ships is well and good, but just because you have 200 ships doesn't necessarily mean anything if they can do very little. It'd be one thing if it were enough to roll up the other side's order of battle in a continuous string of massively uneven contests, say, adding 200 Star Dreadnoughts or something, but adding 0.001% of the total tonnage to the fray is not going to do that. Especially when you consider the reinforcement/redeployment speed involved. Out of tens thousands of frigate+level ships available, you will be able to achieve local parity against 200 new frigates. And a swarm fleet of light ships is going to take disproportionately heavier losses as you go than a smaller force of heavies; how long is 200 small, third-rate ships going to last in a galactic scale conflict?

It's like saying the British got 10 fourth-rates out of nowhere in 1805 for free. Will it make things easier and more convenient? Sure. Will it do squat to the strategic balance of power? No. The numbers do not make sense; it doesn't mean the general ideas for the story sucked. Add a zero or two and it'll make so much more sense.[/quote]

[TC Pilot]

At best I recall him taking whole sectors at most, and a good deal of his tactics still relied on subterfuge and psychological warfare (the taking of Ukio and the blockade of Coruscant, for example.)

Actually, Thrawn managed to succesfully double the size of his territory (1/4 of the former Empire to 1/2) with his campaign. By the end, he's gaining territory at a rate of approximately one sector per day.

[Connor MacLeod]

At best I recall him taking whole sectors at most, and a good deal of his tactics still relied on subterfuge and psychological warfare (the taking of Ukio and the blockade of Coruscant, for example.)

Actually, Thrawn managed to succesfully double the size of his territory (1/4 of the former Empire to 1/2) with his campaign. By the end, he's gaining territory at a rate of approximately one sector per day.

Huh, really? Where was that stated?

[Thanas]

I think the New Essential Chronology says that.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think the New Essential Chronology says that.

Well yeah it does but says "nearly doubling" the size. It also says that Thrawn managed to trick lots of worlds into surrender through trickery alone, and that alot of that territory was held together simply through Thrawn's efforts. That opens up alot of possible interpretations outside of actual military action. I only remember that in the last novel there wasn't much in the way of significant (straight) military conquest, at least by his own forces.

Edit: I suppose one possibility is that by TLC Thrawn managed to persuade or trick more "independent" formerly Imperial forces into his camp for his push (bribed or intimidated by access to clone soldiers, perhaps and his victories) or it just reflects on the somewhat retarded nature of those who seem to form up the New REpublic. It's not as if Zahn has been the only other to give us some indication that the NR was made up of self-interested assholes.

Edit: I'll also note that the NEC does not give any indication that the Katana fleet was somehow THE "war winning" insturment for Thrawn, rather than simply a convenient source of additional warships for him to supplement his forces. The "game winner" as it was in the Thrawn Trilogy is and always was Mount Tantiss.

[fractalsponge1]

There is a massive disconnect between the military and militarized hull and tonnage numbers seen in TPM/ROTS and fleshed out in sources such as Imperial Sourcebook and the ICSes and the kind of numbers that are mentioned in the Zahn novels. The former sources suggest that the dozens of militarized Lucrehulks and thousands of destroyer-sized vessels (all of them more powerful than Dreadnaughts) at Coruscant still constituted a small fraction of total engaged forces ("campaigns detain millions of ships"). Executor alone at the battle of Endor is bigger than the Katana fleet combined, and there are over a dozen of those in various sources, including (depending on how you want to interpret "Super") the three that were basically forgotten about in Black Sword. 25000 destroyers implied by the ISB. These are the typical numbers for contesting large tracts of the galaxy. More recent sources like the Atlas establish the scale of territory taken by Thrawn.

Either it's Thrawn had a huge fleet and army (allies and all) that makes the Katana fleet look irrelevant, or massive Thrawn wanking to make the conquests possible, with tiny forces stringing together an improbably large string of victories on their own. What's he going to do to take a major world without more? Blockade a planet with a miniscule fraction of the tonnage the Trade Federation brought to Naboo in peacetime? How many psychological tricks does it take to take and hold territory embodying millions of planets? At some point, conventional warmaking is going to be needed.

To look at it another way, there are sources that clearly state much more powerful units than Katana that are present (Kaine and Reaper, for example). Either the New Republic and the forces it could call on forces (allied or not) that can stand against that level of firepower (they did, after all, manage to take down Zsinj), or they didn't, and there's a big question mark over how it managed to survive. The inconsistencies are not all Zahn's fault, but he doesn't help rationalize it, certainly.

[TC Pilot]

Huh, really? Where was that stated?

"Here, in what had once been the backwater of the Empire, with barely a quarter of its former systems under nominal Imperial control." - Heir to the Empire, p.3

"The Imperial fleet regrouped near the Unknown Regions while Pellaeon assessed the situation. Thrawn had captured an astonishing amount of territory, nearly doubling the size of the Empire, but it had been held together by his authority alone." -Essential Chronology, p. 89

So that's about a quarter million worlds in a few months.

Edit: I'll also note that the NEC does not give any indication that the Katana fleet was somehow THE "war winning" insturment for Thrawn, rather than simply a convenient source of additional warships for him to supplement his forces. The "game winner" as it was in the Thrawn Trilogy is and always was Mount Tantiss.

Quite so. In fact, the TTT sourcebook says just that: "The Mount Tantiss project was intended to bring the New Republic to its knees. Combining the Katana fleet with hordes of loyal, efficient clone soldiers was a frighteningly effective strategy. Using the best and brightest of the troops under his command, Thrawn planned to make an unstoppable army to destroy his enemies and restore order to the galaxy." -p. 63