Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Galvatron]

The chancellor wanted to force a settlement and he calculated that surprising the Trade Federation with a couple of Jedi would make them shit their pants into caving. I thought this was obvious.

But then, I just watched the opening scene again to refresh my memory.

command ship. We took this as a hostile act and responded accordingly.'

False pretenses? I suppose the Trade Federation could fabricate a cover story that the Jedi attacked them without provocation, but where are you getting "false pretenses" from? Jedi might be rarely employed as negotiators, but I see no reason to assume it's illegal or even frowned upon.

[Havok]

The chancellor wanted to force a settlement and he calculated that surprising the Trade Federation with a couple of Jedi would make them shit their pants into caving. I thought this was obvious.

But then, I just watched the opening scene again to refresh my memory.

Exactly. FORCE a settlement. Not use the Senate to continue arguing about the situation, which it had been doing. I.e. Circumvent the Senate and it's authority.

Ask yourself this, if the Chancellor had just sent two normal negotiators, what do you think would have happened?

[Galvatron]

Do you really think the Jedi were there to literally force a settlement with violence? The chancellor and Jedi were engaging in cowboy diplomacy, sure, but it hardly justified the Trade Federation's reaction.

[Havok]

command ship. We took this as a hostile act and responded accordingly.'

False pretenses? I suppose the Trade Federation could fabricate a cover story that the Jedi attacked them without provocation, but where are you getting "false pretenses" from? Jedi might be rarely employed as negotiators, but I see no reason to assume it's illegal or even frowned upon.

You just said it. He hoped to scare the TF with the revelation that the ambassadors were Jedi. That is false pretenses.
And if it isn't illegal or frowned upon, then why not just say, "OK. Now I am going to send the Jedi to negotiate. You are in trouble now."?

And you 'suppose' the TF could fabricate a cover story?

[Galvatron]

You just said it. He hoped to scare the TF with the revelation that the ambassadors were Jedi. That is false pretenses.

Even granting that the ambassadors were sent under false pretenses, how does that justify the Trade Federation trying to murder them?

And if it isn't illegal or frowned upon, then why not just say, "OK. Now I am going to send the Jedi to negotiate. You are in trouble now."?

That would ruin the surprise.

And you 'suppose' the TF could fabricate a cover story?

Sure, but I think they'd have a hell of a hard time convincing anyone that two Jedi suddenly attacked them without provocation.

[Havok]

Do you really think the Jedi were there to literally force a settlement with violence? The Jedi were there as a show of cowboy diplomacy, sure, but it hardly justified the Trade Federation's reaction.

OK, now that you watched the opening sequence again, watch the rest of the movie.
The Nemoidians were terrified of even being in the room with a Jedi. If not with violence, then with the threat of violence. Qui-Gon was not ignorant of the effect that just the mere presence of Jedi would have on the Nemoidians. We've also seen the Jedi way of 'negotiation' which amounts to forced coercion and cheating at dice.

Also, it wasn't the TF's reaction, it was Sidious's.

[Havok]

You just said it. He hoped to scare the TF with the revelation that the ambassadors were Jedi. That is false pretenses.

Even granting that the ambassadors were sent under false pretenses, how does that justify the Trade Federation trying to murder them?

I didn't say that it did. What I stated was a likely story that the TF would use to explain what happened.

And if it isn't illegal or frowned upon, then why not just say, "OK. Now I am going to send the Jedi to negotiate. You are in trouble now."?

That would ruin the surprise.

But if it wasn't illegal or frowned upon as you are claiming it sin't, it would give the TF that much longer to shit their pants about it, and possibly, if your assertion that just knowing the Jedi would be there would force a settlement, end the situation before they even have to be sent.

And you 'suppose' the TF could fabricate a cover story?

Sure, but I think they'd have a hell of a hard time convincing anyone that two Jedi suddenly attacked them without provocation.

Yeah you are right. The galaxy has no history of the Jedi suddenly turning violent... oh wait.

[Galvatron]

The Nemoidians were terrified of even being in the room with a Jedi. If not with violence, then with the threat of violence. Qui-Gon was not ignorant of the effect that just the mere presence of Jedi would have on the Nemoidians.

Not disputing that.

We've also seen the Jedi way of 'negotiation' which amounts to forced coercion and cheating at dice.

Since it wasn't a desperate situation, I'm gonna go ahead and doubt that Qui-Gon would resort to coercion tactics like that. But then, that's one of TPM's other failings anyway so you might have a point.

Also, it wasn't the TF's reaction, it was Sidious's.

Might as well be the devil for all the good it would do the TF to tell the senate that they were taking their orders from a hologram of a Sith Lord.

Even granting that the ambassadors were sent under false pretenses, how does that justify the Trade Federation trying to murder them?

I didn't say that it did. What I stated was a likely story that the TF would use to explain what happened.

An accusation that they'd be hard-pressed to prove, unless we're assuming that the Jedi had such a bad reputation that the senate would be likely to fall for such a bullshit story.

But if it wasn't illegal or frowned upon as you are claiming it sin't, it would give the TF that much longer to shit their pants about it, and possibly, if your assertion that just knowing the Jedi would be there would force a settlement, end the situation before they even have to be sent.

It would also give them time to bog the senate down in yet more bureaucratic bullshit by protesting the involvement of the Jedi.

Sure, but I think they'd have a hell of a hard time convincing anyone that two Jedi suddenly attacked them without provocation.

Yeah you are right. The galaxy has no history of the Jedi suddenly turning violent... oh wait.

If we're going strictly by the movies, we have no reason to believe that the Jedi have such a checkered past.

[Channel72]

Project often? I'm only talking about the movie itself, you lying, goat-felching fucktard. Amidala has every reason to believe the Senate will do nothing to help her. First of all because her own ambassador tells her that Valorum is "mired" in his own problems, and that his advisers are on the take from the Federation.

Let's review your stupid analogy so I can highlight how much you infer from this movie, versus how much was actually on film.

1) You have a dying relative
2) The relative can't afford medical care because insurance companies keep increasing prices
3) You support Obama because he promised to provide free health care
4) He reneges on his promise and makes an underhanded deal with insurance companies
5) You plead your case to Obama.
6) He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your relative is really dying.

Again, can you tell me where I can buy a copy of your Blu-ray Elfdart Extended Edition that actually includes scenes like this? Because the events in the movie are not in any way analagous to this.

How do you know Valorum is making any underhanded deals with the Trade Federation? Why is it unreasonable for Valorum to send a commission to Naboo when the Queen stupidly doesn't provide any evidence of her claim? Again, all of you idiots are defending what Lucas was going for, not what was actually shown on screen. I'm sure Lucas wanted us to see Valorum as a weak (or possibly corrupt) beauracrat, who was being pushed around by corporate interests. But the movie never actually shows that happening. All it shows is characters acting stupidly. It's also hard to see the Trade Federation as a powerful corporate influence in the Senate when they come off as timid pushovers who will do anything Palpatine says.

Kindly take your strawman and stick it at least 18 inches up your ass, shitstain. When Qui-Gon arrives on Coruscant, the first person he speaks to is Valorum. He requests an immediate meeting with the Jedi Council and tells Valorum (the person who sent him in the first place) that things have become more complicated. Then the scene ends. Now the normal viewer sees that the two Jedi Knights have stayed behind on the platform to talk to Valorum rather than hopping in the taxi with the others. What do you think they discussed? The weather? Sports? Maybe they chatted about how certain fans are such utter fucking imbeciles that they believe that unless something actually happened on screen, and are practically beaten over the head with it, then it never happened. I can't wait for morons like you to say Revenge of the Sith has a "plot hole" because it's not explained in detail how Luke and Leia are conceived and we never actually see Padme and Anakin fuck.

More repetitive nonsense from you. Yes, yes, I know you think we should just infer everything from the barebones, skeletal outline of a "plot" actually shown on screen. And by the way, we saw the entire fucking Senate session up until the point when Amidala called for a no-confidence vote; so your idiotic "off-screen" excuse doesn't even work. When the Trade Federation Senator denied any wrong-doing, why didn't Amidala say "hey, there were two Jedi with me: Qui-Gon something, and what's-his-name. They can verify what I'm saying. Or, does anyone have a laptop? I can download the log files from this R2-unit so you can see that the Trade Federation armada opened fire on us." If the movie actually showed the Queen at least try to back up her claim, she wouldn't come off as an idiot and we would sympathize with her frustration.

Did you even watch the movie, numbnuts? It never got far enough for them to testify. Amidala, egged on by her trusted adviser, pulled the plug on Valorum and any committee investigation. She then took matters into her own hands.

We know that, fuckstick. That's why the plot is ridiculous: it's driven by character stupidity.

By the way, what if they did testify? What makes you think the senators who either support the Federation or are looking for an excuse to shank Valorum will give a shit what the Jedi have to say? The TF has the gall to claim they didn't attack Naboo for fuck's sake -and they still had support. Handwaving away anything the Jedi said would be small beer in comparison.

So then show that on screen: give us some fucking indication that the Queen had no choice; that she was desperate. The way the screenplay is written, she just comes off as stupid. She had all kinds of evidence she could have used to persuade the Senate: Jedi testimony, her ship's flight-recorder, R2-D2's memory banks, etc. Instead, she just flipped out and called for a no-confidence vote, then stormed off back to Naboo with some retarded plan. When the plot is driven by character stupidity, it's a sign of bad writing.

No, because Palpatine wasn't going to show up with the cavalry. He tipped off the Federation and sent his chief henchman to Naboo to kill them. Amidala had proved to be a wild card and getting rid of her would bring serious benefits. A raging battle on Naboo would make it easier for him to play the victim.

Wrong, that's just you speculating. Once he was elected Chancellor there would be no reason for him to kill the Queen.

Um...there's a superweapon with the firepower to blow up a fucking planet. Really, what more urgency do you need in that situation?

And there's a rampaging army that has invaded and occupied a helpless planet and herded its inhabitants into camps. What more urgency do you need? Oh that's right: Unlike 90-plus percent of normal people who think the idea of being invaded, occupied and put in camps to be "processed" is something to be dreaded, you have to actually see battle droids gang-raping Gungans and acting like Einsatzgruppen. Fuck you, dummy.

Yeah, a "rampaging" army. Again, please send me a copy of the Elfdart Extended Edition that had a rampaging army in it. I'd also love to see those scenes in the Elfdart Extended Edition that shows the concentration camps, because then I might actually care about the Queen's mission. But the movie I saw basically had a couple of battle droids marching around the capital building, and not much else.

So the fact that a Machiavellian bad guy who is out to take over by manipulating the political process would exploit the death of a child is bad writing. I hope you never watch Richard III or Lady Jane.

Jesus, you're hilarious. Unlike Richard III, where Richard actually tells the audience his intentions to do away with Anne, TPM gives us no indication that Palpatine ever had any plans to kill Amidala. Again, that scene is only in the EEE version. (Please tell me how to get a copy!)

You say that because you're an idiot. When exactly did Palpatine arrive with this "cavalry"? You see his ship land after the battle is over (no indication as to just how long after). He shows up with his bodyguards and a few Jedi VIPs.

Oh really, now apparently you need everything spelled out for you. I think it's obvious Palpatine must have arrived with some kind of force, otherwise how did he intend to handle the Trade Federation occupiers? (I'll admit it's a bit vague; since AotC reveals that the Republic had no army, what exactly did the Senate plan to do to stop the Trade Federation? Maybe they just put together joint navies from member worlds?)

[Channel72]

Really, the main point is simply that the movie shows the Trade Federation brazenly defy the Republic by invading a planet, and then blatantly attempt to kill a Jedi master, someone that is part of a renowned order with connections to the Chancellor himself. This would be roughly analogous to the CEO of General Electric trying to kill the head of the Secret Service. And yet, neither the Jedi council nor the Chancellor himself show any real outrage or interest in doing anything about it.

Now, you could argue that that's the point: the movie is trying to show how ineffective the "system" is. That's a fair point, and I agree that this is probably what Lucas was going for when he wrote these scenes. But in order for that point to be effectively communicated to the audience in a compelling way, you have to at least show that the good guys made an earnest attempt to do everything they could. This is where the screenplay utterly fails. Amidala had all sorts of evidence to build a compelling case in front of the Senate. She could have had the Jedi testify, she could have showed recordings from her ship's computer, etc. Since we never see her even attempt to do anything like that, the impression we are left with is not that the "system" is broken, but that there's either a major plothole or the Queen is just an hysterical idiot.

[Havok]

The Nemoidians were terrified of even being in the room with a Jedi. If not with violence, then with the threat of violence. Qui-Gon was not ignorant of the effect that just the mere presence of Jedi would have on the Nemoidians.

Not disputing that.

We've also seen the Jedi way of 'negotiation' which amounts to forced coercion and cheating at dice.

Since it wasn't a desperate situation, I'm gonna go ahead and doubt that Qui-Gon would resort to coercion tactics like that. But then, that's one of TPM's other failings anyway so you might have a point.

Why? he seems to do it without any qualms.

Also, it wasn't the TF's reaction, it was Sidious's.

Might as well be the devil for all the good it would do the TF to tell the senate that they were taking their orders from a hologram of a Sith Lord.

I was just pointing that out.

Even granting that the ambassadors were sent under false pretenses, how does that justify the Trade Federation trying to murder them?

I didn't say that it did. What I stated was a likely story that the TF would use to explain what happened.

An accusation that they'd be hard-pressed to prove, unless we're assuming that the Jedi had such a bad reputation that the senate would be likely to fall for such a bullshit story.

Well they had a bad enough reputation that 10 years later, after fighting a war for the Republic, no one batted an eye at the accusation that the ENTIRE order staged a coup that failed.

But if it wasn't illegal or frowned upon as you are claiming it sin't, it would give the TF that much longer to shit their pants about it, and possibly, if your assertion that just knowing the Jedi would be there would force a settlement, end the situation before they even have to be sent.

It would also give them time to bog the senate down in yet more bureaucratic bullshit by protesting the involvement of the Jedi.

You are evading the question of why they had to be sent in secret if it was illegal, or bad form. As for bogging the Senate down, it was already doing nothing. Doing more nothing would make no difference. Even still, the Senate was bogged down in PROCEDURE. Whether that is good or bad is irrelevant, the Chancellor still cut them out of the process on his own.

Sure, but I think they'd have a hell of a hard time convincing anyone that two Jedi suddenly attacked them without provocation.

Yeah you are right. The galaxy has no history of the Jedi suddenly turning violent... oh wait.

If we're going strictly by the movies, we have no reason to believe that the Jedi have such a checkered past.

Well going strictly by the movies we know that 1000 years prior, the Sith ruled the galaxy. So it isn't a stretch to imagine that people have a history/record of the Jedi going bad.

For the record, the only EU I recognize is pre ROTJ.

[Galvatron]

Since it wasn't a desperate situation, I'm gonna go ahead and doubt that Qui-Gon would resort to coercion tactics like that. But then, that's one of TPM's other failings anyway so you might have a point.

Why? he seems to do it without any qualms.

Yeah, when the situation is grim and lives are at stake. By his own words, the trade dispute was a trivial matter. Is it so hard to make the distinction?

An accusation that they'd be hard-pressed to prove, unless we're assuming that the Jedi had such a bad reputation that the senate would be likely to fall for such a bullshit story.

Well they had a bad enough reputation that 10 years later, after fighting a war for the Republic, no one batted an eye at the accusation that the ENTIRE order staged a coup that failed.

And before that, the Jedi were entrusted with the leadership of the Grand Army and the defense of the Republic. Hardly an indication that they were hated pariahs prior to Order 66.

You are evading the question of why they had to be sent in secret if it was illegal, or bad form. As for bogging the Senate down, it was already doing nothing. Doing more nothing would make no difference. Even still, the Senate was bogged down in PROCEDURE. Whether that is good or bad is irrelevant, the Chancellor still cut them out of the process on his own.

How do we know that the supreme chancellor isn't legally entitled to do so? Secret != illegal. It could simply mean he was being discreet. Perhaps Valorum was trying to get the matter resolved quickly and quietly to avoid an ongoing media circus so he and both sides of the trade dispute could save face in a compromise.

Who knows? If you're looking for speculative TPM apologia, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Well going strictly by the movies we know that 1000 years prior, the Sith ruled the galaxy. So it isn't a stretch to imagine that people have a history/record of the Jedi going bad.

For the record, the only EU I recognize is pre ROTJ.

Yeah, but the Sith aren't the Jedi. In fact, thanks to the lack of information about the Sith, we don't know much about them at all.

[Havok]

Let's review your stupid analogy so I can highlight how much you infer from this movie, versus how much was actually on film.

1) You have a dying relative You have an attacked planet.
2) The relative can't afford medical care because insurance companies keep increasing prices The planet can't protect itself from the attackers.
3) You support Obama because he promised to provide free health care You are told the Chancellor will support you, and he sends ambassadors to fix the situation.
4) He reneges on his promise and makes an underhanded deal with insurance companies Valorum doesn't back you, the Jedi or their findings.
5) You plead your case to Obama. You go before the Senate, again with the hope of help.
6) He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your relative is really dying. He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your planet really was attached.

Again, can you tell me where I can buy a copy of your Blu-ray Elfdart Extended Edition that actually includes scenes like this? Because the events in the movie are not in any way analagous to this.

Looks like the movie I saw.

How do you know Valorum is making any underhanded deals with the Trade Federation?

I wouldn't go so far as to say he was making underhanded deals, but they make it VERY clear that he has made so many moves and compromises with them and their like, that he has no more real power.

Why is it unreasonable for Valorum to send a commission to Naboo when the Queen stupidly doesn't provide any evidence of her claim?

It is unreasonable because Valorum not only knows what is happening, but has tried to already stop it.

Again, all of you idiots are defending what Lucas was going for, not what was actually shown on screen. I'm sure Lucas wanted us to see Valorum as a weak (or possibly corrupt) beauracrat, who was being pushed around by corporate interests. But the movie never actually shows that happening.

Wow. You really are fucking retarded. Valorum KNOWS what is going on. He sends his agents to stop it. When confronted in the Senate however, he completely folds from a fucking whisper in the ear, when he is on the verge of siding with Amidala. How does that NOT show a weak (or possibly corrupt) bureaucrat who is being pushed around by corporate interests??

All it shows is characters acting stupidly.

No, it shows them acting within the confines of their character, because unlike you stupidly seem to forget, they don't know what the fuck is going on like we do.

It's also hard to see the Trade Federation as a powerful corporate influence in the Senate when they come off as timid pushovers who will do anything Palpatine says.

What? Sidious (not Palpatine) is essentially their leader. Why wouldn't they do what he says?

Kindly take your strawman and stick it at least 18 inches up your ass, shitstain. When Qui-Gon arrives on Coruscant, the first person he speaks to is Valorum. He requests an immediate meeting with the Jedi Council and tells Valorum (the person who sent him in the first place) that things have become more complicated. Then the scene ends. Now the normal viewer sees that the two Jedi Knights have stayed behind on the platform to talk to Valorum rather than hopping in the taxi with the others. What do you think they discussed? The weather? Sports? Maybe they chatted about how certain fans are such utter fucking imbeciles that they believe that unless something actually happened on screen, and are practically beaten over the head with it, then it never happened. I can't wait for morons like you to say Revenge of the Sith has a "plot hole" because it's not explained in detail how Luke and Leia are conceived and we never actually see Padme and Anakin fuck.

More repetitive nonsense from you. Yes, yes, I know you think we should just infer everything from the barebones, skeletal outline of a "plot" actually shown on screen.

Barebones? If you watch the movie and are not a retard, it is not barebones. But Elfdart brings up a good point... just what did YOU think the Chancellor and the two Jedi were discussing?

And by the way, we saw the entire fucking Senate session up until the point when Amidala called for a no-confidence vote; so your idiotic "off-screen" excuse doesn't even work. When the Trade Federation Senator denied any wrong-doing, why didn't Amidala say "hey, there were two Jedi with me: Qui-Gon something, and what's-his-name. They can verify what I'm saying. Or, does anyone have a laptop? I can download the log files from this R2-unit so you can see that the Trade Federation armada opened fire on us." If the movie actually showed the Queen at least try to back up her claim, she wouldn't come off as an idiot and we would sympathize with her frustration.

And as I asked Galvs, do you think the TF would NOT refute any evidence shown? Claim it is fabrication on the Queen's part to get the Senate to act in her favor? Absolutely not, and there would still be a commission. The only no feet dragging result if for Valorum to exercise power he is either unable or unwilling to do. Probably both. Even if the Jedi were called, they were sent by the Chancellor, helped the Queen... their testimony is completely biased on the opposition's side, so still, we have a commission to verify the truth. Why don't you get this?

Did you even watch the movie, numbnuts? It never got far enough for them to testify. Amidala, egged on by her trusted adviser, pulled the plug on Valorum and any committee investigation. She then took matters into her own hands.

We know that, fuckstick. That's why the plot is ridiculous: it's driven by character stupidity.

Yeah, no.
Palpatine is Amidala's trusted adviser and the Naboo's Senator to the government. She has ZERO reason to not believe what he tells her and act on that information, ESPECIALLY as things unfolded exactly as he said they would. You again confuse what the characters know and what WE know.

By the way, what if they did testify? What makes you think the senators who either support the Federation or are looking for an excuse to shank Valorum will give a shit what the Jedi have to say? The TF has the gall to claim they didn't attack Naboo for fuck's sake -and they still had support. Handwaving away anything the Jedi said would be small beer in comparison.

So then show that on screen: give us some fucking indication that the Queen had no choice; that she was desperate. The way the screenplay is written, she just comes off as stupid. She had all kinds of evidence she could have used to persuade the Senate: Jedi testimony, her ship's flight-recorder, R2-D2's memory banks, etc. Instead, she just flipped out and called for a no-confidence vote, then stormed off back to Naboo with some retarded plan. When the plot is driven by character stupidity, it's a sign of bad writing.

No, this whole post and argument is a sign of you being a fucking retard and not being able to comprehend what is shown and said on screen without a fucking guide.

And again, even if evidence is presented... what? The Trade Federation is going to be all, "Oops. Well you got us. We will stop the blockade and evacuate the planet. Sorry about that."
Don't be a fucking idiot. Is the point that the whole system is corrupt somehow lost on you? Amidala was at her last option the second Valorum conceded the point.

No, because Palpatine wasn't going to show up with the cavalry. He tipped off the Federation and sent his chief henchman to Naboo to kill them. Amidala had proved to be a wild card and getting rid of her would bring serious benefits. A raging battle on Naboo would make it easier for him to play the victim.

Wrong, that's just you speculating. Once he was elected Chancellor there would be no reason for him to kill the Queen.

Hey dumbass, he sent Maul to kill the Queen BEFORE she even got to the Coruscant. Fuck you are stupid. Padme' ended up playing Palpatine's part for him. Had she been killed, he would have called for the No Confidence vote himself. Her doing it was an on the fly adjustment.

Um...there's a superweapon with the firepower to blow up a fucking planet. Really, what more urgency do you need in that situation?

And there's a rampaging army that has invaded and occupied a helpless planet and herded its inhabitants into camps. What more urgency do you need? Oh that's right: Unlike 90-plus percent of normal people who think the idea of being invaded, occupied and put in camps to be "processed" is something to be dreaded, you have to actually see battle droids gang-raping Gungans and acting like Einsatzgruppen. Fuck you, dummy.

Yeah, a "rampaging" army. Again, please send me a copy of the Elfdart Extended Edition that had a rampaging army in it. I'd also love to see those scenes in the Elfdart Extended Edition that shows the concentration camps, because then I might actually care about the Queen's mission. But the movie I saw basically had a couple of battle droids marching around the capital building, and not much else.

Yeah and ROTJ only showed about 20 Rebel ships, so that must be how many there are right? You are a moron.
They literally, not off-screen, but literally, talk about the camps in specific, non retardese dialogue. They even tell the droids to take Amidala to a camp to be processed. The Naboo are desperately trying to contact the Queen with news that people are being killed by the TF. Seriously... have you actually seen the movie?

You bitch that they didn't show enough for your dumbass in regards to the political plot, then whine and complain when they spell out something EXTREMELY specifically in regards to the occupation and how dire it is.

So the fact that a Machiavellian bad guy who is out to take over by manipulating the political process would exploit the death of a child is bad writing. I hope you never watch Richard III or Lady Jane.

Jesus, you're hilarious. Unlike Richard III, where Richard actually tells the audience his intentions to do away with Anne, TPM gives us no indication that Palpatine ever had any plans to kill Amidala. Again, that scene is only in the EEE version. (Please tell me how to get a copy!)

Oooh I see. You are one of those people that was actually fooled by the Sidious/Palpatine thing. I get it now.

You say that because you're an idiot. When exactly did Palpatine arrive with this "cavalry"? You see his ship land after the battle is over (no indication as to just how long after). He shows up with his bodyguards and a few Jedi VIPs.

Oh really, now apparently you need everything spelled out for you. I think it's obvious Palpatine must have arrived with some kind of force, otherwise how did he intend to handle the Trade Federation occupiers? (I'll admit it's a bit vague; since AotC reveals that the Republic had no army, what exactly did the Senate plan to do to stop the Trade Federation? Maybe they just put together joint navies from member worlds?)

Oh for fucks... Clearly the battle is fucking WAY over by the time Palpatine gets there. But your assertion that there is an UNSEEN 'Calvary' that is NEVER mentioned, when you bitch about the UNSEEN 'raging army' that is definitely, and at the very least, implied and which has a component of we actually see is hilarious and completely indicative of how you watched TPM, which is obviously with your eyes closed, drunk and masturbating.

[Havok]

Since it wasn't a desperate situation, I'm gonna go ahead and doubt that Qui-Gon would resort to coercion tactics like that. But then, that's one of TPM's other failings anyway so you might have a point.

Why? he seems to do it without any qualms.

Yeah, when the situation is grim and lives are at stake. By his own words, the trade dispute was a trivial matter. Is it so hard to make the distinction?

Not at all, but as I said, the only time the Jedi talk about the Force this way is when they are referring to the weak minded. How was Qui-Gon speaking about the TF 'types' again?

An accusation that they'd be hard-pressed to prove, unless we're assuming that the Jedi had such a bad reputation that the senate would be likely to fall for such a bullshit story.

Well they had a bad enough reputation that 10 years later, after fighting a war for the Republic, no one batted an eye at the accusation that the ENTIRE order staged a coup that failed.

And before that, the Jedi were entrusted with the leadership of the Grand Army and the defense of the Republic. Hardly an indication that they were hated pariahs prior to Order 66.

And again, as I said, no one batted an eye when they were accused of treason. So while there may be a recognized need for the Jedi, there was no one lamenting their loss either. Also, IIRC, Palpatine essentially appointed the Jedi as Generals on his own, for obvious reasons.

You are evading the question of why they had to be sent in secret if it was illegal, or bad form. As for bogging the Senate down, it was already doing nothing. Doing more nothing would make no difference. Even still, the Senate was bogged down in PROCEDURE. Whether that is good or bad is irrelevant, the Chancellor still cut them out of the process on his own.

How do we know that the supreme chancellor isn't legally entitled to do so? Secret != illegal. It could simply mean he was being discreet. Perhaps Valorum was trying to get the matter resolved quickly and quietly to avoid an ongoing media circus so he and both sides of the trade dispute could save face in a compromise.

Illegal or not, they were still sent in secret and still attempted to cut the Senate out of the process. Of course it makes no sense to send them in secret if it is in his legal power to send them to settle disputes of this magnitude.

Who knows? If you're looking for speculative TPM apologia, you're barking up the wrong tree.

I'm not, but I know.

Well going strictly by the movies we know that 1000 years prior, the Sith ruled the galaxy. So it isn't a stretch to imagine that people have a history/record of the Jedi going bad.

For the record, the only EU I recognize is pre ROTJ.

Yeah, but the Sith aren't the Jedi. In fact, thanks to the lack of information about the Sith, we don't know much about them at all.

Well we know they hate the fucking Jedi. We know that they ruled the galaxy at some point. We know that people under their rule viewed it as oppression. We also know, granted later, that it isn't hard or even unheard of that Jedi become Sith.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Amazing, my prediction came entirely true. You answered nothing, repeated points that were debunked early, and engaged in a screeching fanboy hissy fit, just like I said you would.

You really are a dumbass. Characters in fiction only act on what they know (or think they know). Padme wasn't "stupid" because she thought the fix was in and the Senate could not or would not help. She had no way of knowing her own ambassador was behind the whole thing.

Amidala's idiocy in putting together a case to save her own planet has already been well covered several times in this thread. Unless you have anything actually new to bring up about it, I can safely ignore your bleating because all you're doing is erecting a wall of ignorance.

Did they stop the invasion?

Oh dear, your strawman's looking a little flimsy. Their job wasn't to stop the invasion, it was to A) cut to the truth of what was actually happening on and around Naboo, and B) negotiate a truce with the neemees. If their job was to stop an invasion, they would have had an army at their backs.

There's only ten-thousand of them having to cover how many millions of worlds, and Naboo was lucky enough to get a visit from these near-mythical figures. But you're right, the Republic did jack and shit for them. Face it, either the plot is fucking retarded, or you're watching an entirely different movie than the sane people on this forum.

Or option C: You are retarded.

Wow, you have honestly devolved to the level of a three year old who doesn't want to clean his room. Congratulations, should I be expecting 'yo mamma' jokes next?

[Havok]

Wait... stopping the invasion was NOT part of negotiating a truce? What? Did I miss Negotiation 101.

"Ok, so we have a truce."
"Yup."
"So you will stop the invasion."
"What?"
"Y'know, the invasion. The reason we are here negotiating the truce... you are going to halt it."
"Dude, no. That is crazy talk."

[Galvatron]

Yeah, when the situation is grim and lives are at stake. By his own words, the trade dispute was a trivial matter. Is it so hard to make the distinction?

Not at all, but as I said, the only time the Jedi talk about the Force this way is when they are referring to the weak minded. How was Qui-Gon speaking about the TF 'types' again?

He said they're cowards. That's all. I don't know if that means they're "weak-minded" or not, but it still doesn't mean that the Jedi are going to use the Force in a situation that doesn't call for it.

And again, as I said, no one batted an eye when they were accused of treason. So while there may be a recognized need for the Jedi, there was no one lamenting their loss either. Also, IIRC, Palpatine essentially appointed the Jedi as Generals on his own, for obvious reasons.

Yeah, well, Palpatine was very convincing. He had everyone believing that the Jedi tried to assassinate him as a prelude to overthrowing the entire senate, using his disfigured face as physical proof.

What you're suggesting is that the Jedi were unpopular before all this, but there just isn't any filmic evidence of that.

How do we know that the supreme chancellor isn't legally entitled to do so? Secret != illegal. It could simply mean he was being discreet. Perhaps Valorum was trying to get the matter resolved quickly and quietly to avoid an ongoing media circus so he and both sides of the trade dispute could save face in a compromise.

Illegal or not, they were still sent in secret and still attempted to cut the Senate out of the process. Of course it makes no sense to send them in secret if it is in his legal power to send them to settle disputes of this magnitude.

We don't know that the senate was being cut out of the process.

Once again, all parties involved were expecting emissaries from the chancellor. The only secret is that the ambassadors were Jedi. And there's no reason to assume that sending Jedi to conduct negotiations was rare or even uncommon given the fact that Qui-Gon spoke about the whole affair as if he'd been there/done that before.

Yeah, but the Sith aren't the Jedi. In fact, thanks to the lack of information about the Sith, we don't know much about them at all.

Well we know they hate the fucking Jedi. We know that they ruled the galaxy at some point. We know that people under their rule viewed it as oppression. We also know, granted later, that it isn't hard or even unheard of that Jedi become Sith.

It hasn't happened for at least a thousand years. That indicates it's pretty rare, don't you think?

[Channel72]

1) You have a dying relative You have an attacked planet.
2) The relative can't afford medical care because insurance companies keep increasing prices The planet can't protect itself from the attackers.
3) You support Obama because he promised to provide free health care You are told the Chancellor will support you, and he sends ambassadors to fix the situation.
4) He reneges on his promise and makes an underhanded deal with insurance companies Valorum doesn't back you, the Jedi or their findings.
5) You plead your case to Obama. You go before the Senate, again with the hope of help.
6) He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your relative is really dying. He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your planet really was attached.

I'm not sure what you're trying to pull here, but did you actually think nobody notices how point 4, which is really the critical component of the analogy, is in no way analogous to what's actually in the movie? There's no indication that Valorum is making any underhanded deals with the Trade Federation. And point 6, in Elfdart's brainless analogy, is supposed to highlight how broken the "system" is, but in the actual movie it does no such thing. Sending a commission to Naboo is a totally reasonable way to resolve the conflicting claims in the Senate, given that Amidala inexplicably doesn't provide any evidence to support her claims.

I'm skipping over most of your responses, because they are largely repetitive. If you think you made any particularly salient point that I failed to address, then bring it up in your next response.

<snip mostly repetitive nonsense>
Barebones? If you watch the movie and are not a retard, it is not barebones. But Elfdart brings up a good point... just what did YOU think the Chancellor and the two Jedi were discussing?

It doesn't even matter. I'll grant you that by any reasonable estimation, they must have been discussing recent events on Naboo. Do you think that somehow helps your position? The problem is that the screenplay utterly fails to show us that the good guys actually tried their best to present their case to the Senate. Are you seriously telling me that if you were in Amidala's position, you wouldn't bring up the fact that two Jedi could corroborate your testimony? You wouldn't present evidence, like R2-D2's memory banks, or the ship's flight recorder, to the Senate? Really, it's getting tiresome to repeat this.

And as I asked Galvs, do you think the TF would NOT refute any evidence shown? Claim it is fabrication on the Queen's part to get the Senate to act in her favor? Absolutely not, and there would still be a commission. The only no feet dragging result if for Valorum to exercise power he is either unable or unwilling to do. Probably both. Even if the Jedi were called, they were sent by the Chancellor, helped the Queen... their testimony is completely biased on the opposition's side, so still, we have a commission to verify the truth. Why don't you get this?

This is just getting ridiculous. Even if the Trade Federation would have the balls to flat out assert that R2-D2's memory banks and/or the Queen's flight-recorder was a forgery, it's still absolutely absurd that the Queen wouldn't even try. There's no indication that the Republic is so hopelessly corrupt that the Trade Federation can get away with outright denial of objective, forensic evidence. But regardless, it doesn't matter whether or not the Trade Federation would try to refute the evidence. The point is, Amidala doesn't even try. So it's hard to feel any sympathy for her. If the movie showed that she did her best, but the Senate continued to obstinately ignore her evidence, we might feel an actual emotion when watching this movie.

<snip more repetition of the same point... blah blah Trade Federation would just deny everything blah blah...>

Hey dumbass, he sent Maul to kill the Queen BEFORE she even got to the Coruscant. Fuck you are stupid. Padme' ended up playing Palpatine's part for him. Had she been killed, he would have called for the No Confidence vote himself. Her doing it was an on the fly adjustment.

Wrong, shitstain. He never sent Maul to kill the Queen. He sent Maul to bring her back to Naboo to sign the treaty. Please try to pay attention.

They literally, not off-screen, but literally, talk about the camps in specific, non retardese dialogue. They even tell the droids to take Amidala to a camp to be processed. The Naboo are desperately trying to contact the Queen with news that people are being killed by the TF. Seriously... have you actually seen the movie?

You bitch that they didn't show enough for your dumbass in regards to the political plot, then whine and complain when they spell out something EXTREMELY specifically in regards to the occupation and how dire it is.

What the fuck don't you understand about making an impression on the audience. In a movie, you can't just say that something bad is happening; you have to show it or the audience doesn't feel any emotional reaction. This is basic Hollywood 101 that just about every decent movie follows, but for some reason you're letting Phantom Menace get a free pass on this? It's a good thing Lord of the Rings wasn't written like Phantom Menace, otherwise we'd never see Sauron's armies burning down villages and terrorizing people. We'd just hear about it in dialogue. Yeah, that would be awesome.

Oh for fucks... Clearly the battle is fucking WAY over by the time Palpatine gets there. But your assertion that there is an UNSEEN 'Calvary' that is NEVER mentioned, when you bitch about the UNSEEN 'raging army' that is definitely, and at the very least, implied and which has a component of we actually see is hilarious and completely indicative of how you watched TPM, which is obviously with your eyes closed, drunk and masturbating.

It doesn't matter to me whether or not there was some kind of cavalry. The point is, regardless of the outcome of any of the action sequences on Naboo, the Trade Federation occupation would have ended either by Senatorial decree, military force, or Sidious simply telling them to leave. Of course, the whole situation is somewhat strange: how exactly did the Senate plan to stop the Trade Federation anyway, if they didn't have a standing army? This also brings into focus yet another annoying plot contrivance in the film: what happened to all the Trade Federation battleships? They had an entire Armada in the beginning of the movie, but when Amidala returns to Naboo, there's just a single ship. This is never explained.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Wait... stopping the invasion was NOT part of negotiating a truce? What? Did I miss Negotiation 101.

I believe the implied question was, "Did they stop the invasion by force?" If I was wrong on that I concede.

Besides that, the only reason they didn't stop the invasion was because of the interference of a Sith Lord, something that hasn't happened for a thousand years. That's sort of a special circumstance which justifies the failed initial negotiations, I'd think.

[Darth Wong]

Really, the main point is simply that the movie shows the Trade Federation brazenly defy the Republic by invading a planet, and then blatantly attempt to kill a Jedi master, someone that is part of a renowned order with connections to the Chancellor himself. This would be roughly analogous to the CEO of General Electric trying to kill the head of the Secret Service. And yet, neither the Jedi council nor the Chancellor himself show any real outrage or interest in doing anything about it.

Jedi aren't supposed to get outraged and demand blood justice. I don't know where you got your idea of Jedi, but it's clearly mistaken. As for the Chancellor, he obviously did that quietly. The "send in soldiers but disavow their actions" theme is so old and shopworn in Hollywood that it's pretty much a cliche, and you're acting as if you've never heard of it.

Now, you could argue that that's the point: the movie is trying to show how ineffective the "system" is. That's a fair point, and I agree that this is probably what Lucas was going for when he wrote these scenes. But in order for that point to be effectively communicated to the audience in a compelling way, you have to at least show that the good guys made an earnest attempt to do everything they could. This is where the screenplay utterly fails. Amidala had all sorts of evidence to build a compelling case in front of the Senate. She could have had the Jedi testify, she could have showed recordings from her ship's computer, etc. Since we never see her even attempt to do anything like that, the impression we are left with is not that the "system" is broken, but that there's either a major plothole or the Queen is just an hysterical idiot.

What would videos from her ship's computer prove? She could have easily doctored them. They're certainly not enough evidence to declare military action against someone, especially when the Senate is corrupt anyway.

You're working really hard to try and make a rather simple story look like an incredibly convoluted mess where all the parts don't fit. If you thought it was emotionally uncompelling that's one thing, but you're manufacturing all sorts of "OMG this makes no sense" mysteries out of thin air.

[Havok]

1) You have a dying relative You have an attacked planet.
2) The relative can't afford medical care because insurance companies keep increasing prices The planet can't protect itself from the attackers.
3) You support Obama because he promised to provide free health care You are told the Chancellor will support you, and he sends ambassadors to fix the situation.
4) He reneges on his promise and makes an underhanded deal with insurance companies Valorum doesn't back you, the Jedi or their findings.
5) You plead your case to Obama. You go before the Senate, again with the hope of help.
6) He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your relative is really dying. He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your planet really was attached.

I'm not sure what you're trying to pull here, but did you actually think nobody notices how point 4, which is really the critical component of the analogy, is in no way analogous to what's actually in the movie?

I'm sorry? Are you saying that Valorum did take the Jedi's findings to the Senate and used it as proof? Because it seems to be a pretty large cog in your retard machine, that he did not. Are you saying that he did back Padme and the Naboo? Because he did not.

There's no indication that Valorum is making any underhanded deals with the Trade Federation.

I've already made my position clear on this point, but you decided to snip that part of my post.

And point 6, in Elfdart's brainless analogy, is supposed to highlight how broken the "system" is, but in the actual movie it does no such thing. Sending a commission to Naboo is a totally reasonable way to resolve the conflicting claims in the Senate, given that Amidala inexplicably doesn't provide any evidence to support her claims.

I like how you ignore the point that has been made that Amidala was given NO CHANCE to give evidence, but lets continue.
Point 6 isn't there to illustrate that the system is broken retard. It is there to highlight Valorum's complete ineffectiveness as Chancellor, and that he is a puppet to corporate interests. I mean, he called the special session of the Senate just to hear Amidala's case and he couldn't maintain control of it for more than a few minutes. I really can't understand how you are not getting this. Lucas fucking beats you over the head with it.

I'm skipping over most of your responses, because they are largely repetitive. If you think you made any particularly salient point that I failed to address, then bring it up in your next response.

I answer all your points, I expect you to do the same. Sniping my posts just shows what a dishonest fuck you are, but whatever helps you feel like you are 'wining'.

<snip mostly repetitive nonsense>
Barebones? If you watch the movie and are not a retard, it is not barebones. But Elfdart brings up a good point... just what did YOU think the Chancellor and the two Jedi were discussing?

It doesn't even matter. I'll grant you that by any reasonable estimation, they must have been discussing recent events on Naboo. Do you think that somehow helps your position?

Well part of my position is that you are bitching about things that the movie doesn't show, when any reasonable person can figure out what is going on by, y'know, actually paying attention to the movie. So, yeah, it helps my position.

The problem is that the screenplay utterly fails to show us that the good guys actually tried their best to present their case to the Senate. Are you seriously telling me that if you were in Amidala's position, you wouldn't bring up the fact that two Jedi could corroborate your testimony? You wouldn't present evidence, like R2-D2's memory banks, or the ship's flight recorder, to the Senate? Really, it's getting tiresome to repeat this.

Oh for fucks sake... speaking of repetitive... since you have said it for the umpteenth time... OK listen up dumbass, since you didn't actually watch the movie, R2 was locked in the cargo hold of the Queen's ship, TURNED OFF, for the entirety of the invasion up until the time Jar Jar says 'hi' to him and then the shields were brought down. So what evidence would he have presented? Illuminating evidence of the ambient lighting in the Queen's ship? The ships flight recorder would have recorded... the ship leaving Naboo and flying through a blockade that the Senate already knew was there. How does that help? Oh right they landed on Tattooine... that should help their case.
The Jedi, as I already pointed out are a completely biased, and possibly inadmissible, source of evidence, as they were secretly sent there and then proceeded to help one side of the conflict and not actually mediate the dispute. Not to mention that their testimony is complete hearsay. But go ahead and just keep ignoring that point.
And again, what the movie does show us is that when Amidala is trying to present her case, she is immediately interrupted by the TF who then calls for a commission to be sent, which gets seconded, which Valorum, for a split second tries to argue against, until, just like Palpatine said would happen, he folds and agrees to the commission. We don't know what case she was going to present because she went straight to the NC vote instead of going through actions that she knew were going to waste her time and cause more deaths on her planet.

And what about the point that the evidence could have simply been doctored by a completely biased source. Are you just going to keep ignoring that point to?

And as I asked Galvs, do you think the TF would NOT refute any evidence shown? Claim it is fabrication on the Queen's part to get the Senate to act in her favor? Absolutely not, and there would still be a commission. The only no feet dragging result if for Valorum to exercise power he is either unable or unwilling to do. Probably both. Even if the Jedi were called, they were sent by the Chancellor, helped the Queen... their testimony is completely biased on the opposition's side, so still, we have a commission to verify the truth. Why don't you get this?

This is just getting ridiculous. Even if the Trade Federation would have the balls to flat out assert that R2-D2's memory banks and/or the Queen's flight-recorder was a forgery, it's still absolutely absurd that the Queen wouldn't even try. There's no indication that the Republic is so hopelessly corrupt that the Trade Federation can get away with outright denial of objective, forensic evidence. But regardless, it doesn't matter whether or not the Trade Federation would try to refute the evidence. The point is, Amidala doesn't even try. So it's hard to feel any sympathy for her. If the movie showed that she did her best, but the Senate continued to obstinately ignore her evidence, we might feel an actual emotion when watching this movie.

Let's see... I covered R2's memory banks that don't actually exist. The flight recorder that shows what the Senate already knows. I also already covered that she wasn't even given a proper chance to present her case before the Chancellor agreed to the commission. So lets move on.
Are you really saying that the TF, that has illegally and openly blockaded a planet, wouldn't dispute any evidence presented? Are you really this naive? Corporations dispute objective, forensic evidence every fucking day here on Earth, why would a corporation with a seat in the Galactic Senate not dispute it? You are a fucking idiot.
And the whole fucking first half of the movie is indication that the Republic is so hopelessly corrupt that the the TF would indeed, try to refute the evidence. Not only refute any evidence, but do it with a smile and support.

<snip more repetition of the same point... blah blah Trade Federation would just deny everything blah blah...>

Hey dumbass, he sent Maul to kill the Queen BEFORE she even got to the Coruscant. Fuck you are stupid. Padme' ended up playing Palpatine's part for him. Had she been killed, he would have called for the No Confidence vote himself. Her doing it was an on the fly adjustment.

Wrong, shitstain. He never sent Maul to kill the Queen. He sent Maul to bring her back to Naboo to sign the treaty. Please try to pay attention.

Holy shit, you are actually right about something. Well, a little bit as he ordered her death once she got back to Naboo.

They literally, not off-screen, but literally, talk about the camps in specific, non retardese dialogue. They even tell the droids to take Amidala to a camp to be processed. The Naboo are desperately trying to contact the Queen with news that people are being killed by the TF. Seriously... have you actually seen the movie?

You bitch that they didn't show enough for your dumbass in regards to the political plot, then whine and complain when they spell out something EXTREMELY specifically in regards to the occupation and how dire it is.

What the fuck don't you understand about making an impression on the audience. In a movie, you can't just say that something bad is happening; you have to show it or the audience doesn't feel any emotional reaction. This is basic Hollywood 101 that just about every decent movie follows, but for some reason you're letting Phantom Menace get a free pass on this? It's a good thing Lord of the Rings wasn't written like Phantom Menace, otherwise we'd never see Sauron's armies burning down villages and terrorizing people. We'd just hear about it in dialogue. Yeah, that would be awesome.

Man, you are a goal post moving mother fucker. So which is it? Because you have been saying that they aren't even saying bad things are happening and now that I point out that, yes, they are, you are saying, 'well, they have to show it!'

Oh for fucks... Clearly the battle is fucking WAY over by the time Palpatine gets there. But your assertion that there is an UNSEEN 'Calvary' that is NEVER mentioned, when you bitch about the UNSEEN 'raging army' that is definitely, and at the very least, implied and which has a component of we actually see is hilarious and completely indicative of how you watched TPM, which is obviously with your eyes closed, drunk and masturbating.

It doesn't matter to me whether or not there was some kind of cavalry.

Oh so when you are absolutely wrong, it doesn't matter. Gotchya. And if it doesn't matter, then don't make the fucking point.

The point is, regardless of the outcome of any of the action sequences on Naboo, the Trade Federation occupation would have ended either by Senatorial decree, military force, or Sidious simply telling them to leave.

Yeah, no shit. That is the point of Palpatine's plot. No matter what happens, he becomes Chancellor and wins. The Phantom Menace and all that, only, as you like to keep forgetting, WE know that, NOT the characters.
You are also missing the point of why it is urgent. 'The death toll is catastrophic!' remember that little part about how the Naboo are being killed? Waiting for a Senatorial decree, which includes mobilizing a military force, is NOT an option for Amidala.

Of course, the whole situation is somewhat strange: how exactly did the Senate plan to stop the Trade Federation anyway, if they didn't have a standing army? This also brings into focus yet another annoying plot contrivance in the film: what happened to all the Trade Federation battleships? They had an entire Armada in the beginning of the movie, but when Amidala returns to Naboo, there's just a single ship. This is never explained.

I hear not having a standing army that can fight a GALAXY WIDE war means you have no military at all. As for the blockade, after the invasion, and with assurances that no fleet was coming from Sidious, only the droid control ship was needed to occupy and control the planet. The rest of the ships went... somewhere else, as they weren't needed. Again, if you watch the movie and don't need TPM for Dummies, you can figure this stuff out.

[Channel72]

Now, you could argue that that's the point: the movie is trying to show how ineffective the "system" is. That's a fair point, and I agree that this is probably what Lucas was going for when he wrote these scenes. But in order for that point to be effectively communicated to the audience in a compelling way, you have to at least show that the good guys made an earnest attempt to do everything they could. This is where the screenplay utterly fails. Amidala had all sorts of evidence to build a compelling case in front of the Senate. She could have had the Jedi testify, she could have showed recordings from her ship's computer, etc. Since we never see her even attempt to do anything like that, the impression we are left with is not that the "system" is broken, but that there's either a major plothole or the Queen is just an hysterical idiot.

What would videos from her ship's computer prove? She could have easily doctored them. They're certainly not enough evidence to declare military action against someone, especially when the Senate is corrupt anyway.

Her ship's computers would prove that the Trade Federation armada blatantly opened fire on them, repeatedly, with obvious intent to kill. Sure, the Queen could have doctored the footage, but the same argument could be applied to any video footage presented as evidence, but that doesn't stop people from using it as evidence in court. Why wouldn't the Queen at least try to present it as evidence? You don't know it wouldn't have moved the Senate; there was clearly a lot of sympathy for her already.

You're working really hard to try and make a rather simple story look like an incredibly convoluted mess where all the parts don't fit. If you thought it was emotionally uncompelling that's one thing, but you're manufacturing all sorts of "OMG this makes no sense" mysteries out of thin air.

The argument here is that it's at best emotionally uncompelling, and at worst an outright plot-hole. I'm undecided whether or not to call it a plot-hole, but I lean in that direction. If we include "unlikely behavior or actions of characters" as part of what constitutes a plot-hole, then I would argue it is a plot hole precisely because the Queen doesn't do what I would expect any rational person to do. If she tried to present evidence to the Senate (like testimony from the Jedi, or her ship's computer logs), and then the Senate still insisted on squabbling, that would be a different story.

[Channel72]

I'm sorry? Are you saying that Valorum did take the Jedi's findings to the Senate and used it as proof? Because it seems to be a pretty large cog in your retard machine, that he did not. Are you saying that he did back Padme and the Naboo? Because he did not.

No. This is so tiresome, so let me just give you a simple chart so we can get on the same page here. Hopefully, it's not too high above your reading level.

1) You have a dying relative : You have an attacked planet.
2) The relative can't afford medical care because insurance companies keep increasing prices : The planet can't protect itself from the attackers.
3) You support Obama because he promised to provide free health care You are told the Chancellor will support you, and he sends ambassadors to fix the situation.
4) He reneges on his promise and makes an underhanded deal with insurance companies : ???????? (No analagous event here!)
5) You plead your case to Obama. You go before the Senate, again with the hope of help.
6) He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your relative is really dying. He says he'll appoint a commission to see if your planet really was attached.

The critical point in Elfdart's analogy (point 4) has no analagous complement in the actual movie. Valorum never makes any underhanded deals with the Trade Federation (that we know about) and he never reneges on anything; he just asks the Queen if she would agree to allow a commission to be sent. Which, frankly, is totally reasonable given that he has two conflicting claims from different Senators, and the Queen (inexplicably) fails to provide any evidence to back up her claim (even though she has lots of it) when challenged by the Trade Federation Senator. But then, you already know that because I've said it 2000 times already in this thread.

I like how you ignore the point that has been made that Amidala was given NO CHANCE to give evidence, but lets continue.

At any point during the Senate proceedings she could have presented evidence. She could have presented evidence when Valorum asked her if she would be willing to allow a commission to investigate the claim. Instead she just flipped out.

Point 6 isn't there to illustrate that the system is broken retard. It is there to highlight Valorum's complete ineffectiveness as Chancellor, and that he is a puppet to corporate interests. I mean, he called the special session of the Senate just to hear Amidala's case and he couldn't maintain control of it for more than a few minutes. I really can't understand how you are not getting this. Lucas fucking beats you over the head with it.

For the millionth time here, there was nothing unreasonable about Valorum asking the Queen if she would wait for a commission to be sent, in light of the fact that...oh fuck it, I'm just going to copy/paste: He has two conflicting claims from different Senators, and the Queen (inexplicably) fails to provide any evidence to back up her claim (even though she has lots of it) when challenged by the Trade Federation Senator. But then, you already know that because I've said it 2000 times already in this thread.

See, this is why I snip some of your points, because most of them are refutable using the same constantly-repeated argument you continuously fail to address.

Oh for fucks sake... speaking of repetitive... since you have said it for the umpteenth time... OK listen up dumbass, since you didn't actually watch the movie, R2 was locked in the cargo hold of the Queen's ship, TURNED OFF, for the entirety of the invasion up until the time Jar Jar says 'hi' to him and then the shields were brought down. So what evidence would he have presented? Illuminating evidence of the ambient lighting in the Queen's ship? The ships flight recorder would have recorded... the ship leaving Naboo and flying through a blockade that the Senate already knew was there. How does that help? Oh right they landed on Tattooine... that should help their case.

Finally, a new argument. Unfortunately, it's just further indication that you never watched the actual movie. R2-D2 was active for most of the blockade run scene; he even went out into space to fix the ship. So he saw the Trade Federation Armada blatantly open fire, repeatedly, on the Queen's ship. The flight-recorder would presumably also record that. So between R2 and the ship's computer, the Queen has two sources of objective, forensic evidence which show the Trade Federation blatantly trying to kill a head-of-state.

Do you need me to put some more bold tags around that so you understand the point?

The Jedi, as I already pointed out are a completely biased, and possibly inadmissible, source of evidence, as they were secretly sent there and then proceeded to help one side of the conflict and not actually mediate the dispute. Not to mention that their testimony is complete hearsay. But go ahead and just keep ignoring that point.

The Jedi were sent as peaceful ambassadors to settle the conflict. The Trade Federation then brazenly tried to murder them. This makes them biased how? Are you saying victims of attempted murder can't be used as witnesses now?

And again, what the movie does show us is that when Amidala is trying to present her case, she is immediately interrupted by the TF who then calls for a commission to be sent, which gets seconded, which Valorum, for a split second tries to argue against, until, just like Palpatine said would happen, he folds and agrees to the commission. We don't know what case she was going to present because she went straight to the NC vote instead of going through actions that she knew were going to waste her time and cause more deaths on her planet.

Of course we don't know what she would have done, because the movie doesn't show it. That's the point. Regardless, she had a perfect opportunity to present her case after Valorum asked her if she would allow a commission to be sent to Naboo. She could have just said "There's no need Chancellor. Just plug in this little droid into the projector and witness how these assholes tried to kill me."

And what about the point that the evidence could have simply been doctored by a completely biased source. Are you just going to keep ignoring that point to?

You keep missing the point. Video footage can be doctored even today, but that doesn't prevent it from being used as evidence in court. Really, you have no idea whether or not this evidence would have helped the Queen because she never even tries to present it, even though any sane individual in her position would immediately present the evidence. Seriously, if you witnessed a murder and happened to record it on your cell-phone, would you say: "Well, this video is useless, because it could have been doctored. I'll just delete it."

Are you really saying that the TF, that has illegally and openly blockaded a planet, wouldn't dispute any evidence presented? Are you really this naive? Corporations dispute objective, forensic evidence every fucking day here on Earth, why would a corporation with a seat in the Galactic Senate not dispute it? You are a fucking idiot.

It doesn't matter whether or not they would try to dispute it. The point is, any sane individual would at least present the evidence in the first place. The Queen doesn't even do that. Also, you keep exaggerating the Trade Federation's influence over the Senate. The Senate easily sided with the Queen in the actual movie, demonstrating that they had a lot of sympathy for her. So don't give me this bullshit that flight-recorder evidence/Jedi testimony would have been useless.

What the fuck don't you understand about making an impression on the audience. In a movie, you can't just say that something bad is happening; you have to show it or the audience doesn't feel any emotional reaction. This is basic Hollywood 101 that just about every decent movie follows, but for some reason you're letting Phantom Menace get a free pass on this? It's a good thing Lord of the Rings wasn't written like Phantom Menace, otherwise we'd never see Sauron's armies burning down villages and terrorizing people. We'd just hear about it in dialogue. Yeah, that would be awesome.

Man, you are a goal post moving mother fucker. So which is it? Because you have been saying that they aren't even saying bad things are happening and now that I point out that, yes, they are, you are saying, 'well, they have to show it!'

Wrong, asshole. The goalposts are right where they've always been. I've consistently said that Phantom Menace needs to show actual suffering for us to have any emotional reaction or sense of urgency over the invasion. Quote me saying that dialogue alone would suffice.

The point is, regardless of the outcome of any of the action sequences on Naboo, the Trade Federation occupation would have ended either by Senatorial decree, military force, or Sidious simply telling them to leave.

Yeah, no shit. That is the point of Palpatine's plot. No matter what happens, he becomes Chancellor and wins. The Phantom Menace and all that, only, as you like to keep forgetting, WE know that, NOT the characters.

Then I don't know what you're even arguing with me about. My only point is that this makes the action sequences at the end completely boring, because their outcome is ultimately inconsequential.

You are also missing the point of why it is urgent. 'The death toll is catastrophic!' remember that little part about how the Naboo are being killed? Waiting for a Senatorial decree, which includes mobilizing a military force, is NOT an option for Amidala.

This just relates back to the whole issue of generating urgency. The movie generates no urgency because there is no visual indication the Naboo are actually being killed. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are unsure, but they suspect the transmission is just a trick. This doesn't do much to generate a feeling of urgency for the audience. It also doesn't help that they're dicking around at local sporting events on Tatooine, if the Queen's people are really dying every second.

I hear not having a standing army that can fight a GALAXY WIDE war means you have no military at all.

I didn't say they had no military at all. You were arguing that Palpatine had no cavalry. I was saying I just don't know what the cavalry would have consisted of. Maybe it was a fleet put together from different member worlds? Regardless, this is not really an important point.

As for the blockade, after the invasion, and with assurances that no fleet was coming from Sidious, only the droid control ship was needed to occupy and control the planet. The rest of the ships went... somewhere else, as they weren't needed. Again, if you watch the movie and don't need TPM for Dummies, you can figure this stuff out.

Wrong, the rest of the ships conveniently left because Lucas couldn't figure out what to do with them. If all the ships are still there at the end, it's hard to come up with a believable way for the good guys to save the day. So Lucas just said, "okay whatever the ships are all gone now for some reason."

[Havok]

Holy fucking shit. Dude, you do realize that the Senate is WELL aware of the fact that the Trade Federation has blockaded the damned planet right? You do know what happens when you try to run a blockade RIGHT? The issue is NOT that they fired on Padme's fucking ship, it is that they INVADED the fucking planet. That is the issue Amidala is bringing before the Senate. That is what the Nemoidians ask if it was legal to do. To which Sidious replies, "I will make it legal." That is what the Nemoidians want a commission sent for. Fucking christ.

Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict...

So again, there IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE INVASION that Padme can present other than her word, and the word of the Jedi that is complete hearsay and completely biased, assuming they were even legally allowed to be there. Fuck you are dense.

[Channel72]

Holy fucking shit. Dude, you do realize that the Senate is WELL aware of the fact that the Trade Federation has blockaded the damned planet right? You do know what happens when you try to run a blockade RIGHT?

The blockade was only to stop incoming cargo ships you idiot. They had no right to fire on the Queen's ship, which was leaving the planet.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

So yeah, if they fired on a FedEx ship you might have a point. But they fired on a ship transporting the head-of-state of a Republic member world as it left the planet. That's a pretty severe crime in the eyes of the Senate.

The issue is NOT that they fired on Padme's fucking ship, it is that they INVADED the fucking planet. That is the issue Amidala is bringing before the Senate. That is what the Nemoidians ask if it was legal to do. To which Sidious replies, "I will make it legal." That is what the Nemoidians want a commission sent for. Fucking christ.

Stop being dense. I know the main issue is the invasion. That doesn't somehow make it legal for the Trade Federation to blatantly fire on the Queen's ship. The point is, showing the Senate that the Trade Federation tried to kill her would immediately demonstrate the outright hostility of the Trade Federation, and garner sympathy for the Queen in the Senate. The Senate would also be more likely to believe the Queen's claims about the invasion, since, you know, she just demonstrated that the Trade Federation committed a brazen act of wanton hostility towards a member of the Republic.

And please spare me your usual mindless rebuttal about how the Trade Federation would just continue to deny everything, and claim the evidence was falsified. Again, even if there was a strong possibility they would attempt to deny the evidence, any reasonable person in the Queen's position would at least try to present the evidence.