Waterboarding for Dummies - CIA Guidelines on Torture

[Andrew J.]

What the US is doing is completely normal and expected.

Considering the amount of shock and outrage this has generated, that's doubtful at best.

That's because that's how the world works: Each State is independent from other states and there is no ruling body of the States. That means that each country lives in complete anarchy with each other, so in that case the rule of the strongest that counts and the strongest thug maintains hegemonic status over the other countries.

The nineteenth century called; it wants its theory of international relations back.

The US is presently the world's hegemonic state, and hence he provides the service of keeping other states in line, to preserve the international order. However, to maintain this service it is necessary to be brutal and to kill innocents once and while. However, the hegemonic state also maintain it's hegemony by the force of ideas: They present themselves as the good guys lower resistance and hence costs of maintaining their hegemon status.

Accepting arguendo the first sentence as true, the United States hasn't exactly done the greatest job "keeping other states in line," and in any case the necessity of illegal and/or morally repugnant methods doesn't necessarily follow from that. Also, there are those who would argue that the United States does or should exert influence primarily through ideas and its image, and that unwise use of power cripples its ability to do so.

[Edi]

It's also telling that the US has gone to great lengths to try and hide these things even from its closest allies, though in the UK's case it can at best be called willfull blindness of the willing accomplice.

U.S. kept Britain in dark over torture: ex spy chief

That's a Reuters article on the subject, though a bit sparse.

[The Yosemite Bear]

This shit just pisses me off, we have people who broke international laws, hid behind double speak, and deserve to be hanged, or spend the rest of their lives in prison doing hard labour.

[Thanas]

The document in the OP reads eerily like one of the Nazi documents detailing the effects of torture on jews. It is absolutely sickening.

It is also no surprise that Obama, being the spineless coward he is, is perfectly willing to sweep this stuff under the rug. I bet everyone involved in this will also get some kind of award for a job well done and a government pension. But I guess justice is only for the defeated countries who committed atrocities.

And what is even worse is that a great deal of americans are numbnuts who do not care one bit about the Geneva conventions, the UN convention against torture or any other law that prohibits this kind of thing. No, they are perfectly willing to condone it because they too are spineless cowards shaking in their boots at the mere mention of the word Bin Laden. What a mess of cowards and brutes the US has become.

Somehow, "weak and cowardly" Europe has no need to resort to those practices despite living with arguably greater terrorist threats for far longer. Makes me wonder who the real spineless cowards are here.

[K. A. Pital]

Somehow, "weak and cowardly" Europe has no need to resort to those practices despite living with arguably greater terrorist threats for far longer.

But you see, it would have been Untergang des Abendlandes since long if not for the brave American warriors HUR HUR fighting the terrorists on their home soil, else the Muslimo-Islamo-Arab tidal wave would have long swept Europe away, spineless and defeatists locals would have been assimilated by the new European Khalifate and it's only America which keeps Europe from falling to the Islamofascist dominion.

Or that's what they will say when confronted with the facts.

[Akhlut]

Somehow, "weak and cowardly" Europe has no need to resort to those practices despite living with arguably greater terrorist threats for far longer.

But you see, it would have been Untergang des Abendlandes since long if not for the brave American warriors HUR HUR fighting the terrorists on their home soil, else the Muslimo-Islamo-Arab tidal wave would have long swept Europe away, spineless and defeatists locals would have been assimilated by the new European Khalifate and it's only America which keeps Europe from falling to the Islamofascist dominion.

Or that's what they will say when confronted with the facts.

You forgot that you're being outbred by the Mooslims, Stas, and that soon you'll be swamped with Mooslim immigrants who will enslave all Europeans.

Or, at least, that's what Tom Kratman tells me.

[MKSheppard]

Can we not mention Kratman, please? I'll kill the next person to mention him.

[Vaporous]

snip

None of which justifies torture or makes it an iota more moral, shitfucker.

That's true. It's also true that he wasn't arguing either one of those points.

[Elfdart]

I kind of think that my signature says it all. Whatever we may do, our enemies are fifty to a hundred times infinitely worse.

Then why bother fighting them? Why not join them?

[MKSheppard]

Then why bother fighting them? Why not join them?

Because I kind of like pornography and the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit special. None of which would be available under their repressive regime(s). It's also kind of worth remembering the kind of regime they instituted in Afghanistan, given UNLIMITAD POWAR to do what they wanted inside Afghanistan.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I kind of think that my signature says it all. Whatever we may do, our enemies are fifty to a hundred times infinitely worse.

Then why bother fighting them? Why not join them?

I think that's exactly what the gutless violent-fantasizing Jack-Bauer worshipping shitstain excuse of an American who masturbates with the flag, pisses white, shits red and pukes blue was saying.

Nothing justifies behaving like animals. Nothing.

The 'people' responsible for this memo are animals, and they deserve war-crimes trials, not awards or pensions.

[MKSheppard]

You really outta look up the Geneva Conventions sometimes twit.

Geneva doesn't apply to our current enemies. We can pretty much shoot them out of hand like Otto Skorzeny's people if we wanted to, and we'd be all legally in the clear.

It's kind of funny that one of the most twinky countries in Asia -- Thailand, of all places -- actually had prisoner of war camps, prisoner mail, and POW exchanges during one of it's past (or currently running) guerilla insurgencies.

The difference? The people in that example, who were fighting an insurgency against the Thai government actually did follow the rules laid forth within the Geneva convention; so the Thai government extended Geneva rights to them.

Mind you, this is the same country until recently (2001) basically let Army personnel kill people at their discretion. Since 2001; they now have to have a good reason that would stand up under investigation. It used to be that all you had to say was that it was a necessary act in performance of duty. Now they have to say WHY.

At least the victim being a Communist was still a good reason.

[MKSheppard]

Nothing justifies behaving like animals. Nothing.

I love that line, I really do. It's an awesome way to show faux-outrage, and to show your moral bankruptcy, in that there's nothing you're willing to go to lengths to defend.

[stormthebeaches]

And what is even worse is that a great deal of americans are numbnuts who do not care one bit about the Geneva conventions, the UN convention against torture or any other law that prohibits this kind of thing. No, they are perfectly willing to condone it because they too are spineless cowards shaking in their boots at the mere mention of the word Bin Laden. What a mess of cowards and brutes the US has become.

Considering how the majority of Americans do not support torture, describing the US as a mass of cowards and brutes is quite inaccurate.

[eion]

Geneva doesn't apply to our current enemies.

Who says? The term "unlawful combatant" has zero international force. One is either a prisoner of war or a war criminal. Prisoners of war may not be tried as war criminals, and war criminals cannot be tortured or held indefinably.

Geneva applies even when only one of the warring parties is a signatory.

But even if Geneva doesn't apply, the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which the U.S. and 144 other countries have signed and ratified, most certainly applies. The treaty defines torture as

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Article II goes on to ban torture and declare that there are no circumstances under which its use is acceptable.

Article 2
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Notice "shall take" not "may take", that is a command, not a request. The U.S. is obligated by this treaty to pass and enforce laws that ban torture and prosecute torturers. Futher notice that no order from a superior officer or public authority may be invoked; The President of the United States cannot order someone to torture someone else, a lawyer at the Justice department cannot write a memo granting the U.S. the power to torture. There are no loopholes.

The treaty further compels all signatory states to investigate and prosecute all acts of torture under its jurisdiction, to include where the victim or torturer were citizens of such a state. I really hope Dick Cheney never wants to travel internationally again, likewise George Bush, hope he got his fill of Canada.

My government tortured. It is a violation of everything my country is supposed to defend. And even after they raped my values, my constitution, the very foundation of my country, what have they to show for it? NOTHING. The torture didn't work. There has been no indication of any actionable intelligence being extracted through torture that could not or was not done so through legitimate and legal means. No terror plots have been stopped because of torture, not bombs defused by pouring water down a victim’s throat. It doesn't work, it didn't work, and even if it did, it would still be against every moral and legal standard of the civilized world.

[stormthebeaches]

Edit: Opps, could a moderator please delete this?

[Samuel]

Nothing justifies behaving like animals. Nothing.

I love that line, I really do. It's an awesome way to show faux-outrage, and to show your moral bankruptcy, in that there's nothing you're willing to go to lengths to defend.

Please- no one here has argued that brutally killing your enemies is wrong. People have been arguing against torture.

Considering how the majority of Americans do not support torture, describing the US as a mass of cowards and brutes is quite inaccurate.

Well, "silent majority" doesn't really affect anything if they are unwilling to say or do anything.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Nothing justifies behaving like animals. Nothing.

I love that line, I really do. It's an awesome way to show faux-outrage, and to show your moral bankruptcy, in that there's nothing you're willing to go to lengths to defend.

How about the right of people not to be tortured? Seems like something worthy of going to lengths to defend.

[MKSheppard]

How about the right of people not to be tortured? Seems like something worthy of going to lengths to defend.

You know, that's another great line too; all you need to do is alter it slightly.

"The right of people to be free of fiery killfuckyness death. That seems like something worthy of going to lengths to defend."

And then apply it to the pre-invasion air attacks in france that killed 15,000+ frenchmen that we were liberating.

[Akhlut]

How about the right of people not to be tortured? Seems like something worthy of going to lengths to defend.

You know, that's another great line too; all you need to do is alter it slightly.

"The right of people to be free of fiery killfuckyness death. That seems like something worthy of going to lengths to defend."

And then apply it to the pre-invasion air attacks in france that killed 15,000+ frenchmen that we were liberating.

Except that the only way to stop, say, the Nazis was by shooting them and bombing their cities. We're not going to stop anything by torturing anyone. Such torture is useless and cruel, and if applied to the wrong people, will make us enemies. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that waterboarding a guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time is not going to endear the US to him and may result in him actually becoming a terrorist if/when he is released.

[Stark]

How about the right of people not to be tortured? Seems like something worthy of going to lengths to defend.

You know, that's another great line too; all you need to do is alter it slightly.

"The right of people to be free of fiery killfuckyness death. That seems like something worthy of going to lengths to defend."

And then apply it to the pre-invasion air attacks in france that killed 15,000+ frenchmen that we were liberating.

Man, Mike's right. Your childish mentality IS amusing as all hell. Shame to point thisout, but black/White fallacies prove nothing and irrelevant military trivia isn't a great help either.

In other words, since it's possible to 'defend' without torture - and indeed torture creates enemies and weakens allies - everything you have said is wrong.

Oh and death threats. But that's just you, right? Lol

[MKSheppard]

We're not going to stop anything by torturing anyone. Such torture is useless and cruel, and if applied to the wrong people, will make us enemies. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that waterboarding a guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time is not going to endear the US to him and may result in him actually becoming a terrorist if/when he is released.

Except we've only used waterboarding on three people; back in 2002-2003

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
Abu Zubayda
Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri

People who played key roles in 9/11 (KSM), the African Embassy Bombings (Abu Zubayda), the USS Cole Bombing (al-Nashirii).

Pardon me if my heart just bleeds for those people.

And you know, I like your application of "creates enemies". By that motivation, shouldn't we stop our Drone killing program, since blowing up people with hellfires raises the chance of us wounding some bystander with sharpnel, and he goes on to hate us?

[Stark]

And what was the net result? Aside from brutalisng your whole country, I mean.

Hey, I guess it's like an abuse victim abusing others by proxy. Where's Supes?

And uh oh, Shep busts out somemore moral equivalance. At least he's consistent in his cherry-picking.

[Formless]

Geneva doesn't apply to our current enemies. We can pretty much shoot them out of hand like Otto Skorzeny's people if we wanted to, and we'd be all legally in the clear.

Say, whats this I hear about "fuck you?"

[Akhlut]

We're not going to stop anything by torturing anyone. Such torture is useless and cruel, and if applied to the wrong people, will make us enemies. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that waterboarding a guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time is not going to endear the US to him and may result in him actually becoming a terrorist if/when he is released.

Except we've only used waterboarding on three people; back in 2002-2003

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
Abu Zubayda
Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri

People who played key roles in 9/11 (KSM), the African Embassy Bombings (Abu Zubayda), the USS Cole Bombing (al-Nashirii).

Pardon me if my heart just bleeds for those people.

Who gives a shit who they are? It is still useless bullshit. It doesn't give us useful intelligence and it just pisses off a lot of potential allies.

And you know, I like your application of "creates enemies". By that motivation, shouldn't we stop our Drone killing program, since blowing up people with hellfires raises the chance of us wounding some bystander with sharpnel, and he goes on to hate us?

Yeah, both can create enemies, shit-for-brains. The difference is that one can be used to further objective good (such as 'eliminate Taliban strongholds'), while the other provides NO FUCKING USEFUL OBJECTIVES WHATSOEVER. Is that so difficult to comprehend? I know you have a million goddammed military factoids lodged in your skull, is it really that difficult to understand that torture provides nothing useful whatsoever?