Vorlon Planet Killer poll

[Master of Ossus]

The point is, they weren't fighting openly. The Vorlons were fighting behind the scenes, and providing support through their servitor races (one such example of a show era servitor race would be the Orieni). The point of the wars was to see which ideology was right, the Shadow one (Chaos) or Vorlon one (Order). I have already addressed this point on why the Vorlons or the Shadows for that matter did not deploy their largest weapons in the previous war. (Refer to the first post, the Vorlons and Shadows were forbidden by the Rules of Engagement that they had drawn up with Lorien himself, to not attack each other openly.)

I started this subsection by saying that the Vorlons were not fighting very hard in the war, because Kosh was the first Vorlon to die in 10,000 years (proving that no Vorlons were killed in the last great war). You denied this, and said that the Vorlons fought in the war. Now you are agreeing with me that they were not fighting the Shadows directly. This CONCLUSIVELY proves that the Minbari were the most important race during that war, and that Shadow technology cannot be that far advanced when compared with Minbari technology. By extension, this indicates that the Vorlons were not orders of magnitude more powerful than the Minbari. At most, there are two orders of magnitude separating the Centauri from the Vorlons in terms of firepower. This is inconsistent with a VPK that can actually shatter a planet.

Also, bases take long to build. After the destruction of the biggest Minbari base (which was used as the forward base in the war) the Minbari and the Allies began a general fighting retreat, because they could no longer coordinate the fleets effectively without that base. The appearance of B4 is extremely significant, because it gives the Minbari and the Allies a base that they didn't have before, to immediately begin offensives and bring the war to the Shadows, something that they could not have done without it. They wouldn't have had to wait while a new base was built, it was already there for them to use.... [/quote]

Bases do take time to build, but this should demonstrate that Shadow/Vorlon technology is not far beyond the Younger Races.
You provided a quote for the very first novel that was done for b5 right? Then isn't it logical to say that the novels that followed that are of the "same" canon that you speak of?

It is somewhat logical to say that other novels (later) might have been completely canon, but to say that all of the later ones are completely canon because of that and the fact that they are labelled canon is crappy logic. The point is that "canon" in B5 does not mean that something is completely correct. Canon is used in B5 where "licensed" would be used in SW. In SW, "licensed" just means that the company had permission to make the product, but it does not make the product relevent to our discussion. I have demonstrated that JMS uses the word "canon" to indicate that a product is licensed by him. You then rejected this utterly and said that "canon" means canon. You then further go on to say that B5 products are canon unless they contradict the show. You are redefining "canon" in your own manner, which I accused you of in the past and you got very grumpy with me for saying it. You are now saying that "canon" is kind of like official in SW. There is no evidence of this. You go on to say that because B5Wars does not blatantly contradict the show, it should be considered canon. Again, this is crappy logic. Many licensed products in SW do not blatantly contradict the movies, but they still cannot be used to override the EU. Finally, B5Wars might contradict the show in that it says that the VPK destroyed a planet.

You are using circular logic, saying that because the VPK destroyed a planet, then B5Wars proves that it was capable of destroying a planet. That is circular logic, and is obviously illogical.
I do NOT believe that SW official is canon. There is a clear difference between the EU and what is canon. I hate it when Trekkies use this argument against me. Official does not mean canon. There is a clear difference in SW between official and canon. You accuse me of believing that the EU is outright canon. That is a lie. DarkStar repeatedly attacks me on this ground, and he gets no where. Why? Because I don't think, and have never thought, that official means canon. It does not, in SW. It means something else entirely. In fact, it means that it might not be true at all!

So i ask you again, is it so hard to understand that JMS has given this product (B5Wars, and all others with the B5 name on it) his blessing. That the company that made the product was even given to the show producers when JMS himself wasn't available to answer a technical question. Is it so hard to accept that this source is official and DOES NOT violate any canon put forth by the show? [/quote]

I agree with you. JMS has said that B5Wars is canon. That means that it has his blessing, but it does not make it canonical. Saying that the company was allowed to answer question about a product is similarly stupid. Doug Chiang is in big trouble, right now, for answering questions he had no right to answer. Michael Okuda has no right to override what is said in the show. Further, I can answer technical questions about SW, I just cannot guarantee that my answer is correct 100% of the time. This is similar to what is going on here. The company could clearly be overriden by JMS, if JMS said something. JMS cannot go back and change a show. There is an order of progression, here. B5Wars is a licensed product, but that does not make it canon or even official. In fact, it is almost totally irrelevent! You cannot use a non-canon source to override a canon one.

Look, can we agree that the Vorlons are not orders of magnitude more powerful than the Shadows?

[Guest]

I started this subsection by saying that the Vorlons were not fighting very hard in the war, because Kosh was the first Vorlon to die in 10,000 years (proving that no Vorlons were killed in the last great war). You denied this, and said that the Vorlons fought in the war. Now you are agreeing with me that they were not fighting the Shadows directly. This CONCLUSIVELY proves that the Minbari were the most important race during that war, and that Shadow technology cannot be that far advanced when compared with Minbari technology. By extension, this indicates that the Vorlons were not orders of magnitude more powerful than the Minbari. At most, there are two orders of magnitude separating the Centauri from the Vorlons in terms of firepower. This is inconsistent with a VPK that can actually shatter a planet.

Very nice reasoning. Too bad it's directly contradicted by the series.

We see in the show Minbari Sharlin cruisers going against Shadow ships. Their main ray weapon didn't even scratch a Shadow cruiser, whose slicer ray, on the other hand, destroyed a Sharlin in a fraction of a second.

The same is true for the VPK. Nice reasoning and everything, but again, too bad the series itself shows us something else.

[Master of Ossus]

SO HOW THE HELL DID THE MINBARI WIN THE LAST WAR, IF THE VORLONS WERE NOT FIGHTING THE SHADOWS?

[Guest]

WELL OBVIOUSLY NOT WITH ANYWHERE NEAR EQUAL TECHNOLOGY! Or are you suggesting that the Minbari were on or near First One-level 1000 years ago, and regressed to their current level by the time of B5?[/i]

[Master of Ossus]

WELL OBVIOUSLY NOT WITH ANYWHERE NEAR EQUAL TECHNOLOGY! Or are you suggesting that the Minbari were on or near First One-level 1000 years ago, and regressed to their current level by the time of B5?[/i]

I'm not saying that the Minbari are even at First One-level technology during the series itself, but they were clearly the most important race fighting for the Vorlons during the Great War. This indicates that their ships are not orders of magnitude weaker.

Incidentally, the Minbari shots do not simply bounce off of the Shadow ships, as you claim. A Sharlin is actually more powerful than a White Star, and the White Star can destroy Shadow BC's. Clearly Sharlins are not orders of magnitude less powerful than the Shadows, which means that the Centauri are not more than two orders of magnitude less powerful than the Vorlons.

[Stravo]

I believe that the war was fought by a number of races which the Minbari led just as Sheridan led the YR in the finla shadow war. The war was so devastating that only the MInbari managed to survive the war, all the other OR died fighting the shadows, leaving the MInbari alone to wait for the next war. (sort of a parallel to what happened to the Vorlons, left alone in this galaxy to watch over the YR) AFTER the great war 1000 years ago, then the YR started to rise, the first among them the Centuari who forged their massive empire. So there were empires and civilizations out there nearly as old and powerful as the Minbari that were wiped out fighting the shadows. Kind of gives you pause huh?

[Master of Ossus]

Actually there were races as powerful as the Minbari were 1000 years ago fighting in the Great War. The Minbari are still not orders of magnitude less powerful than the Shadows, in terms of firepower.

[adam warlock]

A Sharlin is actually more powerful than a White Star, and the White Star can destroy Shadow BC's.

yes a whitestar can destroy a shadow bc, provided a bc was telepathically subdued, and that most of the whitestars power, including power from the jump engines, was diverted to the main weapons and focused on the disabled battlecrab for 40+ seconds. (episode "walkabout")

and is everyone forgetting that the shadows were not all out trying to kill all the younger races..whether it was 1000yrs before, or during the last shadow war.. doesnt that in itself contribute to the minbari victory 1000yrs ago.

also the vorlons did eventually get directly involved as shown in the graphic novel "In Valens name".

[Master of Ossus]

1. The Shadows were not orders of magnitude more powerful than the Minbari 1000 years ago. If they were, then they should have easily wiped out the Minbari, even with the gift of B4.
2. The Whitestar in "Walkabout" was not firing for 40+seconds. I don't know how you can get a time estimate that is so far off. It was not firing for more than 20 seconds.
3. The Vorlons were not really involved in the Great War, or one of them SHOULD have died. Instead, they were participating without really risking anything. They attacked low-priority targets. Also, I don't think that the graphic novel is canon, but I could be wrong about that part.

[consequences]

Has anyone considered the fact that at the range the VPK was firing, a planetary detonation like that seen at Alderaan would almost certainly destroy the planet killer as well?

[Master of Ossus]

Has anyone considered the fact that at the range the VPK was firing, a planetary detonation like that seen at Alderaan would almost certainly destroy the planet killer as well?

Of course I have. The observed range at Centauri Prime was positively TINY, even with the possibility of a 20 mile diameter on the VPK. The thing barely blocked out the sun, and assuming a relatively Earth-like solar system, the range was too small to create a DS sized explosion, however it would have been possible for the VPK to input only JUST enough energy to defeat the gravitational binding of the planet, in which case it would have managed to escape the blast. Note that the VPK, even at its most optimistic, is not nearly so powerful as the DS. At its most optimistic, however, it CAN destroy a planet. I do not think that this is an accurate assessment of its abilities, which is why I am arguing on this thread.

[Guest]

I'm not saying that the Minbari are even at First One-level technology during the series itself, but they were clearly the most important race fighting for the Vorlons during the Great War. This indicates that their ships are not orders of magnitude weaker.

Incidentally, the Minbari shots do not simply bounce off of the Shadow ships, as you claim. A Sharlin is actually more powerful than a White Star, and the White Star can destroy Shadow BC's. Clearly Sharlins are not orders of magnitude less powerful than the Shadows, which means that the Centauri are not more than two orders of magnitude less powerful than the Vorlons.

In the episode "Shadow Dancing" we see a Sharlin firing it's main weapon at a Shadow Cruiser that's being jammed by it's telepaths, without any effect. The Battlecrab just hovers there, taking the blast. Then, three White Stars attack from another angle, after which the Shadow Cruiser still lasts for a few moments before being destroyed.

In the same fight, we see a Shadow Cruiser firing at a Sharlin, which is immediately blown to pieces as the slicer beam touches it.

Now tell me how the Minbari were near the Shadows in power 1000 years ago, when they didn't even know of the Shadows' weakness to telepathy.

As for a single White Star destroying a Shadow vessel - that was only a small scout ship, and even then destroying it left the White Star drained afterwards.

There is no way the Minbari could have defeated the Shadows without either getting help from the Vorlons or having greatly superior numbers of ships. Most likely both, if the Vorlons truly only played a small role in the War.

[Nephilim]

1. The Shadows were not orders of magnitude more powerful than the Minbari 1000 years ago. If they were, then they should have easily wiped out the Minbari, even with the gift of B4.
2. The Whitestar in "Walkabout" was not firing for 40+seconds. I don't know how you can get a time estimate that is so far off. It was not firing for more than 20 seconds.
3. The Vorlons were not really involved in the Great War, or one of them SHOULD have died. Instead, they were participating without really risking anything. They attacked low-priority targets. Also, I don't think that the graphic novel is canon, but I could be wrong about that part.

1) The current breed of Shadows ships are not the most powerful breed of ships that the Shadows were capable of creating. The Shadows went through a design philosophy change when they switched from fighting the First Ones to the younger races. These ships were deliberately watered down versions of the old ones so the Shadows could implant any sentient species to act as the CPU of the ship, increasing the number of vessels they could field massively. But the ship's power went down as well. On the other hand, when the Shadows themselves used to pilot their own ships (circa the Kirishiac War) their ships had none of the weaknesses, and were more powerful than the current era ships. They weren't vulnerable to telepathic interferance (Shadows are telepaths on the level of P15 and above), their energy diffuser system could handle far more damage ect.

The Shadows didn't want to win the war against the younger races. They as they said on B5, only wanted to pile over a couple of antpiles, so new ones could arise, with better and new ideas. How can it mean that it is technological parity between the Minbari and the Shadows, when the Minbari were fighting with a coalition of races behind them, including the Yolu who had been in space even longer than the Minbari themselves? You must know that ANY technological advantage can be defeated with numbers, and that's what the Minbari, Yolu, and other races involved in the fight had, numbers, not technological parity. A large number of races during the conflict were destroyed, many others were put back into the stone age. The Shadows were only one race, with insufficient ships, fighting against an entire alliance of others...

Also, its stated very specifically in the episode War Without an End, that the reason that the Shadows in the end lost the war, was that they initially moved far too quickly, and did not prepare for the war. This gave the Minbari, and the allied races a chance to beat the Shadows. Its right there in the episode, and its also stated as the reason as to why the Shadows were moving over a period of years during the B5 era.

2. The main canon on the Whitestar is an Improved Neutron Cannon, marginally more powerful than the big guns fitted on the Sharlin. With sustained firing for at least 20 seconds (i agree with you, it wasn't anywhere near 40 seconds) the Shadow ships Energy Diffuser defenses continued to hold. Only after the added firepower of two Heavy Lasers were added from the G'tok was the ship destroyed. It wasn't just the Whitestar that destroyed it, it was with the help of another ship...

3. I think the graphic novel In Valen's Name was written by JMS himself, so it should at least official.

[adam warlock]

2. The main canon on the Whitestar is an Improved Neutron Cannon, marginally more powerful than the big guns fitted on the Sharlin. With sustained firing for at least 20 seconds (i agree with you, it wasn't anywhere near 40 seconds) the Shadow ships Energy Diffuser defenses continued to hold. Only after the added firepower of two Heavy Lasers were added from the G'tok was the ship destroyed. It wasn't just the Whitestar that destroyed it, it was with the help of another ship...

actually im talking about the scene where lyta had to hold the first shadow bc they encountered.

yes..i retimed it...and it actually took 30 seconds... near midway sheriden orderend power to be diverted from the jump engines to the maing gun, the order was executed around the 5-6 seconds later.

Has anyone considered the fact that at the range the VPK was firing, a planetary detonation like that seen at Alderaan would almost certainly destroy the planet killer as well?

how do you know that the vpk wouldnt have survived that?.. little is known about the defenses of the vpk.. sure the other first ones ships combined might destroyed it easily.. but we know next to nothing about the properties/power their weapons have..and the vpk blasted arkada 7 to an extent that nothing of it was detected afterwards.. not even a field of fast moving rocks..

[Nephilim]

actually im talking about the scene where lyta had to hold the first shadow bc they encountered.

yes..i retimed it...and it actually took 30 seconds... near midway sheriden orderend power to be diverted from the jump engines to the maing gun, the order was executed around the 5-6 seconds later.

Oh ok, i thought you were talking about when the G'tok comes in to help destroy the Shadow Cruiser.

Then in the case of Lyta, the Shadow Cruiser became even more easy to destroy. With telepathic interference, the Energy Diffuser defenses of the Shadow ships become useless, they can't bleed off energy off into space, and eventually the defenses are overloaded. But the fact, that even with telepathic interference, AND energy from the jump engines, it took the Whitestar 30 seconds to destroy it.... The Minbari, even with a ship that is based on Vorlon technology has no chance, unless they use massive numbers to their advantage.

[Guest]

About the VPK's range: I don't know if we can really say anything certain of it. The only instance where any hint has been given was in "Into the Fire(I think - anyway, the episode where one attack Centauri Prime)", where based on the sharp-edged shadow it cast it would have had to be inside the atmosphere, and based on the silhouette, wasn't even pointing it's weapon at Centauri.

I would say that the incident was more of a CGI error than anything else.

Another explanation for it could be that the Vorlons deliberately cast their shadow over the palace as a show of force, but that is a little far fetched - why would they give the Centauri a chance to get rid of the shadows, when they gave it to no one else.

[Master of Ossus]

1) The current breed of Shadows ships are not the most powerful breed of ships that the Shadows were capable of creating. The Shadows went through a design philosophy change when they switched from fighting the First Ones to the younger races. These ships were deliberately watered down versions of the old ones so the Shadows could implant any sentient species to act as the CPU of the ship, increasing the number of vessels they could field massively. But the ship's power went down as well. On the other hand, when the Shadows themselves used to pilot their own ships (circa the Kirishiac War) their ships had none of the weaknesses, and were more powerful than the current era ships. They weren't vulnerable to telepathic interferance (Shadows are telepaths on the level of P15 and above), their energy diffuser system could handle far more damage ect.

Evidence? Remember that the Shadows wiped out deliberately all Narn telepaths long ago to prevent them from being used in a future war against them. This indicates that their new ships really are pretty similar to the ones they used 1000 years ago.

The Shadows didn't want to win the war against the younger races. They as they said on B5, only wanted to pile over a couple of antpiles, so new ones could arise, with better and new ideas. How can it mean that it is technological parity between the Minbari and the Shadows, when the Minbari were fighting with a coalition of races behind them, including the Yolu who had been in space even longer than the Minbari themselves? You must know that ANY technological advantage can be defeated with numbers, and that's what the Minbari, Yolu, and other races involved in the fight had, numbers, not technological parity. A large number of races during the conflict were destroyed, many others were put back into the stone age. The Shadows were only one race, with insufficient ships, fighting against an entire alliance of others...

Wait, so comitting genocide against all of the YR is not winning a war, now? Okay, I never claimed that there was technological parity between the Shadows and the Minbari. In fact, I have never even thought that. The Minbari, however, were not orders of magnitude less powerful than the Shadows. I know that any advantage can be defeated with numbers, but that is not what happened 1000 years ago. If the Shadows were simply overwhelmed, we would have expected them to fight a retreat back to their homeworld, where the Minbari would have fought one final battle against the Shadows. That is not what we saw. Instead, we saw the Shadows attacking the Minbari. The Minbari were in trouble. Then B4 showed up, and the Shadows were driven back. Sorry but the manufacturing capabilities on B4 were not great. In fact, B5 could not build starships at all! This does not indicate that a numerical advantage was what allowed the Minbari to win the war. Further, many B5ers get the idea that the more races you have, the better you are. Unfortunately, while somewhat depicted like that on the show (Minbari technology somehow makes Vorlon stuff better, Human/Shadow hybrids appear to be stronger than either), it just does not work that way in real life. Just because a group has more races than another does not mean that they have more people. For instance, there are many races of Europeans, but there are more Indians and Chinese than there are Europeans. In this case, the same kind of thing is likely going on with the Shadows. Again, Shadow ships are not orders of magnitude more powerful than the YR ships are.

Also, its stated very specifically in the episode War Without an End, that the reason that the Shadows in the end lost the war, was that they initially moved far too quickly, and did not prepare for the war. This gave the Minbari, and the allied races a chance to beat the Shadows. Its right there in the episode, and its also stated as the reason as to why the Shadows were moving over a period of years during the B5 era.

I still see nothing about an enormous numerical advantage. If the Shadow fleet was more powerful by orders of magnitude than the Minbari, they should have been able to wipe them out, since hte Minbari were the most important race to the Alliance 1000 years ago. If, as it was said earlier, Sharlin blasts did nothing to BCs, how could the Minbari have possibly won?

2. The main canon on the Whitestar is an Improved Neutron Cannon, marginally more powerful than the big guns fitted on the Sharlin. With sustained firing for at least 20 seconds (i agree with you, it wasn't anywhere near 40 seconds) the Shadow ships Energy Diffuser defenses continued to hold. Only after the added firepower of two Heavy Lasers were added from the G'tok was the ship destroyed. It wasn't just the Whitestar that destroyed it, it was with the help of another ship...

So, can we agree that two White Stars would have been able to destroy the BC in a few seconds? That is not an order of magnitude.

3. I think the graphic novel In Valen's Name was written by JMS himself, so it should at least official.

Okay, I agree with you. Concession granted.

[Guest]

Evidence? Remember that the Shadows wiped out deliberately all Narn telepaths long ago to prevent them from being used in a future war against them. This indicates that their new ships really are pretty similar to the ones they used 1000 years ago.

I believe he was referring to an earlier time than that, a time when the Shadows still interacted, and at times fought, the other First Ones.

Wait, so comitting genocide against all of the YR is not winning a war, now? Okay, I never claimed that there was technological parity between the Shadows and the Minbari. In fact, I have never even thought that. The Minbari, however, were not orders of magnitude less powerful than the Shadows. I know that any advantage can be defeated with numbers, but that is not what happened 1000 years ago. If the Shadows were simply overwhelmed, we would have expected them to fight a retreat back to their homeworld, where the Minbari would have fought one final battle against the Shadows. That is not what we saw. Instead, we saw the Shadows attacking the Minbari. The Minbari were in trouble. Then B4 showed up, and the Shadows were driven back. Sorry but the manufacturing capabilities on B4 were not great. In fact, B5 could not build starships at all! This does not indicate that a numerical advantage was what allowed the Minbari to win the war. Further, many B5ers get the idea that the more races you have, the better you are. Unfortunately, while somewhat depicted like that on the show (Minbari technology somehow makes Vorlon stuff better, Human/Shadow hybrids appear to be stronger than either), it just does not work that way in real life. Just because a group has more races than another does not mean that they have more people. For instance, there are many races of Europeans, but there are more Indians and Chinese than there are Europeans. In this case, the same kind of thing is likely going on with the Shadows. Again, Shadow ships are not orders of magnitude more powerful than the YR ships are.

Could you define what you mean by "not orders of magnitude greater?" Since apparently we must have different ideas of what that means.

I still see nothing about an enormous numerical advantage. If the Shadow fleet was more powerful by orders of magnitude than the Minbari, they should have been able to wipe them out, since hte Minbari were the most important race to the Alliance 1000 years ago. If, as it was said earlier, Sharlin blasts did nothing to BCs, how could the Minbari have possibly won?

My point exactly. How could they possibly have won without hel pfrom the Vorlons, if they didn't have the numbers, and obviously didn't have the tech.

So, can we agree that two White Stars would have been able to destroy the BC in a few seconds? That is not an order of magnitude.

We should also remember that there were different classes of the Shadow vessels, that were, however hard to tell apart because they all had the same basic design, only varying in size. In Shadow Dancing, it took several White Stars and a Sharlin all continuously firing at it to destroy just one shadow Cruiser. And they had telepaths jamming the ship, so it wasn't even fully finctional at the time.

3. I think the graphic novel In Valen's Name was written by JMS himself, so it should at least official.

Okay, I agree with you. Concession granted.

Yes, it was written by JMS, and it does show Vorlon ships fighting side by side with Minbari ships and Starfuries.

[Guest]

Some incredible typos there... damn them for disabling the edit button.

Oh well, I hope my point gets across anyway.

[Master of Ossus]

actually im talking about the scene where lyta had to hold the first shadow bc they encountered.

yes..i retimed it...and it actually took 30 seconds... near midway sheriden orderend power to be diverted from the jump engines to the maing gun, the order was executed around the 5-6 seconds later.

Oh ok, i thought you were talking about when the G'tok comes in to help destroy the Shadow Cruiser.

Then in the case of Lyta, the Shadow Cruiser became even more easy to destroy. With telepathic interference, the Energy Diffuser defenses of the Shadow ships become useless, they can't bleed off energy off into space, and eventually the defenses are overloaded. But the fact, that even with telepathic interference, AND energy from the jump engines, it took the Whitestar 30 seconds to destroy it.... The Minbari, even with a ship that is based on Vorlon technology has no chance, unless they use massive numbers to their advantage.

Evidence that a BC's defenses are rendered ineffective by telepaths, as well as their maneuvering? Do you have a quote?

[Master of Ossus]

I would say that the incident was more of a CGI error than anything else.

Another explanation for it could be that the Vorlons deliberately cast their shadow over the palace as a show of force, but that is a little far fetched - why would they give the Centauri a chance to get rid of the shadows, when they gave it to no one else.

FX gaffes are not allowed under suspension of disbelief. The Vorlon ship was within the atmosphere, and not yet even within firing range, yet. It clearly needed to be closer. I agree with you, though, that the show of force idea was stupid. Perhaps they were only trying to destroy a part of Centauri Prime, and were moving towards a location where that part of the planet could be more easily fired upon.

[Master of Ossus]

When I ask you if you feel that the Shadow ships were orders of magnitude more powerful than the Minbari, I am asking if you think that they were more than 100 times more powerful than the Minbari ships. In other words, could one hundred Minbari ships fire their weapons and equal the firepower of one shadow ships. If you think that it takes fewer than 100 Sharlin class cruisers to equal the firepower of a BC, you are saying that the Shadow weapons technology is not orders of magnitude greater than the Minbari weapons technology. That is always what is meant by the term, "orders of magnitude."

[Guest]

Alright, thank you. In that case - no, they're probably not orders of magnitude above the Minbari. I imagine that a dozen Sharlin ships or so might match a Shadow BC's firepower, but that's just my estimate.

Personally, I think the PK's appearance on Centauri Prime was just PIS that happened because the story could use the drama (and that was an impressive scene). There's no other way I can think of that'd explain it.

[Shrike]

Evidence? Remember that the Shadows wiped out deliberately all Narn telepaths long ago to prevent them from being used in a future war against them. This indicates that their new ships really are pretty similar to the ones they used 1000 years ago.

The Shadow last piloted their vessels themselves a lot further back than 10,000 years ago.... that would have been during or after the Kirishiac War, which was a long time ago. Considering that everything seems to be nice round numbers, I'd guess a million years ago, or maybe 100,000.

Now, I could be wrong, but I seem to recall a really big Shadow war 10,000 years previously. That would fit with the last Vorlon dying then. Can't confirm it though, so don't take my word for it.

[Nephilim]

Evidence that a BC's defenses are rendered ineffective by telepaths, as well as their maneuvering? Do you have a quote?

It was stated in the show that telepaths screw around with interface of the CPU's of the vessel, not allowing it to control the ship. It confuses them. You did watch the episode right? The proof is right there... What happened when Lyta locked on to the Shadow vessel? It froze. What happened after the backup Sharlin entered hyperspace and the three telepath's onboard locked on? The ships froze, they couldn't move. They were confused.

On top of this, there's evidence from B5Wars which goes into further detail. The tendrils of Shadow warships are referred to as Energy Diffusers, they absorb damage, and over time dissapate it harmlessly into space, not harming the Shadow vessel at all. When a telepath locks on to the Shadow ship, the Energy Diffuser system cannot bleed off the energy off into space, so it just continues to accumulate into the tendrils, until finally they cannot take it any longer. That's why telepaths are so effective when fitting against the Shadows.

But of course, when the Shadows pilot their own ships, there is no such weakness. You could put Bester to go up against a Shadow piloted ship, and he'd come out a vegetable.