Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Stofsk]

So again, there IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE INVASION that Padme can present other than her word, and the word of the Jedi that is complete hearsay and completely biased, assuming they were even legally allowed to be there. Fuck you are dense.

Excuse me, but the sworn testimony of two Jedi is absolutely not hearsay, nor would it be biased. To use a real world analogy Hav, a cop who takes the witness stand and gives sworn testimony is actually giving evidence, and is not 'biased' towards the accused, unless there is actually evidence of said bias. The Jedi in this case had been shot at, their transport ship was destroyed, and they personally witnessed the invasion since they fucking hitched a ride on two of the troop landers.

Hearsay evidence is 'This guy told me what this other guy said to him'. The reason why hearsay evidence is inadmissable is immediately obvious if you ever played the game Chinese Whispers as a child. But if I personally hear someone admit to doing something, and I get up in a court and swear that's what I heard, then that is actually evidence that can be used against the person in question.

To your last point, if the Jedi are legally not even allowed to be there - then how the fuck are they guardians of peace and JUSTICE of the Republic?

[Havok]

So again, there IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE INVASION that Padme can present other than her word, and the word of the Jedi that is complete hearsay and completely biased, assuming they were even legally allowed to be there. Fuck you are dense.

Excuse me, but the sworn testimony of two Jedi is absolutely not hearsay, nor would it be biased. To use a real world analogy Hav, a cop who takes the witness stand and gives sworn testimony is actually giving evidence, and is not 'biased' towards the accused, unless there is actually evidence of said bias. The Jedi in this case had been shot at, their transport ship was destroyed, and they personally witnessed the invasion since they fucking hitched a ride on two of the troop landers.

And were they sent there to do any of that? No. They were sent to be unbiased mediators, not to help one side or the other out. The second they took sides (yes they were forced to) their testimony became completely biased. Cops don't get involved with the situation until after the fact. They also have evidence to back up what they say. the Jedi have no such evidence. It also doesn't change the fact that the Jedi informed Valorum about the the invasion, so he knew that it was actually going on.
Based on that, what is the more likely scenario? That they weren't allowed to be used as witnesses because of some legal issue, or nobody bothered to do it or to think about it? Come the fuck on.

Hearsay evidence is 'This guy told me what this other guy said to him'. The reason why hearsay evidence is inadmissable is immediately obvious if you ever played the game Chinese Whispers as a child. But if I personally hear someone admit to doing something, and I get up in a court and swear that's what I heard, then that is actually evidence that can be used against the person in question.

Fair enough. Bad word usage on my part. That doesn't change the fact that the testimony would be completely biased as they were clearly working for one side. Also, this isn't a courtroom as you, Channel and others seems to think, it is a Senate meeting, and a highly corrupt Senate at that. Any evidence presented is subject to any and all accusations of impropriety.

To your last point, if the Jedi are legally not even allowed to be there - then how the fuck are they guardians of peace and JUSTICE of the Republic?

This goes back to my point that if they were legally allowed to be in the position they were in, then why were they sent in secret to resolve the issue without the Senate knowing about it and without their involvement.

[Havok]

Holy fucking shit. Dude, you do realize that the Senate is WELL aware of the fact that the Trade Federation has blockaded the damned planet right? You do know what happens when you try to run a blockade RIGHT?

The blockade was only to stop incoming cargo ships you idiot. They had no right to fire on the Queen's ship, which was leaving the planet.

They had no right to blockade the fucking planet either dumbshit. Which was why it was an issue in the first place. That still doesn't change the fact that the Senate already knew all this. And to your other 'point' the blockade was also there to stop outgoing ships as well or what is the point if the planets populace can just evacuate on outgoing ships. Don't be fucking stupid. Oops too late.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

So yeah, if they fired on a FedEx ship you might have a point. But they fired on a ship transporting the head-of-state of a Republic member world as it left the planet. That's a pretty severe crime in the eyes of the Senate.

A more severe crime than blockading her planet and starving her to death? Seriously. They are already doing a horrible thing and the only thing they are concerned about is the invasion. Because THAT is the only move that would get the Republic off it's ass.

The issue is NOT that they fired on Padme's fucking ship, it is that they INVADED the fucking planet. That is the issue Amidala is bringing before the Senate. That is what the Nemoidians ask if it was legal to do. To which Sidious replies, "I will make it legal." That is what the Nemoidians want a commission sent for. Fucking christ.

Stop being dense. I know the main issue is the invasion. That doesn't somehow make it legal for the Trade Federation to blatantly fire on the Queen's ship. The point is, showing the Senate that the Trade Federation tried to kill her would immediately demonstrate the outright hostility of the Trade Federation, and garner sympathy for the Queen in the Senate. The Senate would also be more likely to believe the Queen's claims about the invasion, since, you know, she just demonstrated that the Trade Federation committed a brazen act of wanton hostility towards a member of the Republic.

Right showing they fired on the ship is going to show more hostility than blockading the planet and starving it's citizens.

And please spare me your usual mindless rebuttal about how the Trade Federation would just continue to deny everything, and claim the evidence was falsified. Again, even if there was a strong possibility they would attempt to deny the evidence, any reasonable person in the Queen's position would at least try to present the evidence.

I will stop with my 'mindless rebuttal' when you admit that that is EXACTLY what they would do. They would deny every thing, claim all the evidence is falsified or biased or whatever else they could think of and STILL force a commission to be sent. Are you denying that they would do this? Answer this question specifically.

If your answer is 'no' then Padme is not in fact stupid, but smart for just bypassing the whole pointless process that is going to just end up in a commission either way. Again, this is not a court of law. (Which apparently is even worse than the Senate) It is a corrupt body that is run by the corporate interests that have been given equal standing in the galaxy as planetary and sector governments.

[Stofsk]

And were they sent there to do any of that? No. They were sent to be unbiased mediators, not to help one side or the other out. The second they took sides (yes they were forced to) their testimony became completely biased.

So what? The testimony can be biased if it's actually true.

Cops don't get involved with the situation until after the fact. They also have evidence to back up what they say. the Jedi have no such evidence.

Wrong on both counts, cops don't have to necessarily get involved in investigating a crime after it's been committed, taskforces are usually set up to tackle high profile cases (like going after mobsters and so on). But that doesn't matter, because as I said above, the Jedi's sworn testimony actually is evidence.

It also doesn't change the fact that the Jedi informed Valorum about the the invasion, so he knew that it was actually going on. Based on that, what is the more likely scenario? That they weren't allowed to be used as witnesses because of some legal issue, or nobody bothered to do it or to think about it? Come the fuck on.

No, this is why we are arguing this is shitty writing. Somehow Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic, but they aren't trusted enough to provide testimony? You come the fuck on.

Fair enough. Bad word usage on my part. That doesn't change the fact that the testimony would be completely biased as they were clearly working for one side. Also, this isn't a courtroom as you, Channel and others seems to think, it is a Senate meeting, and a highly corrupt Senate at that. Any evidence presented is subject to any and all accusations of impropriety.

A Senate meeting isn't too far removed from a court room, it's just different window dressing and procedures.

As far as the Senate being corrupt, you have a point, but it's hard to reconcile a corrupt senate with the Trade Federation's blatant lies.

This goes back to my point that if they were legally allowed to be in the position they were in, then why were they sent in secret to resolve the issue without the Senate knowing about it and without their involvement.

To protect their mission. Same reason why not every member of Congress gets told about a CIA or SpecOps mission, even though there are Senate oversight committees. When said oversight committees need to make a decision, they question representatives of various agencies who have prepared reports and so on. I think you're reading too much into the whole 'Valorum sent them secretly therefore they're somehow not supposed to be there/can't testify etc'. Either the Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, which implies a law enforcement role as well as a mediation one, or they're not. How secretive they are in the discharge of their duties is irrelevant.

EDIT- To yet again use a real life cop analogy, you can have undercover cops who's identities are protected and who's missions are secret, yet at court they still come out and testify even under an assumed name.

[Channel72]

A more severe crime than blockading her planet and starving her to death? Seriously. They are already doing a horrible thing and the only thing they are concerned about is the invasion. Because THAT is the only move that would get the Republic off it's ass.

What's this about starving to death? You think that just because the Trade Federation cut off shipments that the Naboo are starving to death? Naboo is a lush, Earth-like planet with a small population and a huge power reactor; I'm sure they could survive there for decades without extra-terrestrial food supplies. The movie only suggests that the Naboo are starving after the invasion when the Trade Feds cut off food supplies, NOT as a result of the blockade. Please pay attention so I don't have to waste time explaining obvious plot-points.

As far as the Senate knows, the only thing the Trade Federation has done is to prevent shipments from arriving on Naboo. That's it. The Senate doesn't know that the Trade Federation blatantly invaded the planet, blew up a Republic transport, tried to kill two Jedi, and tried to kill the Queen. These acts are far more hostile and outrageous than simply blockading Naboo. If the Queen has any evidence of this (which she does) then she would be foolish not to present it before the Senate.

I will stop with my 'mindless rebuttal' when you admit that that is EXACTLY what they would do. They would deny every thing, claim all the evidence is falsified or biased or whatever else they could think of and STILL force a commission to be sent. Are you denying that they would do this? Answer this question specifically.

My answer is: I don't know what they would do, and neither do you. We can't possibly know, because the Queen never even tried, even though any sane, rational person in her position would at least try to present the evidence. The Trade Federation might just cave, since earlier they were portrayed as rather cautious and cowardly. But let's assume the Trade Federation would blatantly deny it. Okay, so what? How do you know the Senate would side with them, in light of the compelling, objective evidence they just witnessed? Again, you overestimate the Trade Federation's influence over the Senate. In the actual movie, the Senate sides with the Queen anyway, so if the Queen were to present evidence, instead of just calling for a no-confidence vote, the Senate may very well have sided with her. Remember, she had many different forms of evidence showing Trade Federation hostility: she had 1) Jedi testimony (which you inexplicably dismiss as biased), 2) Her ship's computer logs, 3) R2-D2's memory banks.

All of this evidence should be more than enough to get the Senate on her side without the need for a no-confidence vote. So yeah, the writing is kind of shitty here.

[Elfdart]

And were they sent there to do any of that? No. They were sent to be unbiased mediators, not to help one side or the other out. The second they took sides (yes they were forced to) their testimony became completely biased.

So what? The testimony can be biased if it's actually true.

The Federation and its political allies don't give a flying fuck if it's true. You know, being villains and all.

Wrong on both counts, cops don't have to necessarily get involved in investigating a crime after it's been committed, taskforces are usually set up to tackle high profile cases (like going after mobsters and so on). But that doesn't matter, because as I said above, the Jedi's sworn testimony actually is evidence.

You're assuming that the Senate cares.

No, this is why we are arguing this is shitty writing. Somehow Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic, but they aren't trusted enough to provide testimony? You come the fuck on.

The case never got that far. Even if you assume that the Jedi could testify, why would anyone change their vote just on their say-so?

A Senate meeting isn't too far removed from a court room, it's just different window dressing and procedures.

And? People tell the most brazen lies in court and in front of legislatures. People also ignore the truth when they stand to benefit, or if it will inconvenience them to accept it.

As far as the Senate being corrupt, you have a point, but it's hard to reconcile a corrupt senate with the Trade Federation's blatant lies.

No, the two go hand in hand. The TF knows it can lie and act with impunity once they know the Senate cannot or will not do anything because the senators are either on the take or just don't give a shit.

This goes back to my point that if they were legally allowed to be in the position they were in, then why were they sent in secret to resolve the issue without the Senate knowing about it and without their involvement.

To protect their mission. Same reason why not every member of Congress gets told about a CIA or SpecOps mission, even though there are Senate oversight committees. When said oversight committees need to make a decision, they question representatives of various agencies who have prepared reports and so on. I think you're reading too much into the whole 'Valorum sent them secretly therefore they're somehow not supposed to be there/can't testify etc'. Either the Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, which implies a law enforcement role as well as a mediation one, or they're not. How secretive they are in the discharge of their duties is irrelevant.

EDIT- To yet again use a real life cop analogy, you can have undercover cops who's identities are protected and who's missions are secret, yet at court they still come out and testify even under an assumed name.

Diplomats and agents are sent in secret all the time. Mark Clark was smuggled into Vichy North Africa to carry on secret talks with Jean Darlan and others French officials to get them to quit the Axis and join the Allies. It's both/and, not either/or.

[Galvatron]

Diplomats and agents are sent in secret all the time. Mark Clark was smuggled into Vichy North Africa to carry on secret talks with Jean Darlan and others French officials to get them to quit the Axis and join the Allies. It's both/and, not either/or.

In other words, it's altogether possible that the supreme chancellor was acting well within his legal powers in sending the Jedi to Naboo without informing the senate?

And, off topic, are you purposely trying to make people sick with those pictures of sobbing Glenn Beck in your sig? I can't stand the sight of him.

[Elfdart]

Diplomats and agents are sent in secret all the time. Mark Clark was smuggled into Vichy North Africa to carry on secret talks with Jean Darlan and others French officials to get them to quit the Axis and join the Allies. It's both/and, not either/or.

In other words, it's altogether possible that the supreme chancellor was acting well within his legal powers in sending the Jedi to Naboo without informing the senate?

Does it matter? Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right and certainly doesn't mean it won't be embarrassing if the cat gets out of the bag. Legal or not, the TF and their allies would squeal like stuck pigs that the Jedi are lying and are biased against the "truthiness" of the Federation. That's after they squeal about Valorum going behind their back, etc.

And, off topic, are you purposely trying to make people sick with those pictures of sobbing Glenn Beck in your sig? I can't stand the sight of him.

I thought the quote made up for it.

[adam_grif]

I thought the quote made up for it.

It did initially, but jokes get less funny with repetition while Glenn Beck draws power from it.

[Stofsk]

And were they sent there to do any of that? No. They were sent to be unbiased mediators, not to help one side or the other out. The second they took sides (yes they were forced to) their testimony became completely biased.

So what? The testimony can be biased if it's actually true.

The Federation and its political allies don't give a flying fuck if it's true. You know, being villains and all.

Then why did the chief Neimodian goon worry about whether invading Naboo was quote-unquote 'legal' when he was complaining to Sidious at the start of the film?

You're assuming that the Senate cares.

You're absolutely right, I am assuming the Senate would give a shit about a member world being invaded by the Trade Federation when said invasion is of questionable legality (by the villains of all people).

The case never got that far. Even if you assume that the Jedi could testify, why would anyone change their vote just on their say-so?

I guess I'm making another assumption that the Republican's guardians of peace and justice would be held in enough esteem to be granted a voice to the body their sworn to protect and serve?

And? People tell the most brazen lies in court and in front of legislatures. People also ignore the truth when they stand to benefit, or if it will inconvenience them to accept it.

They certainly do. But why would the Chancellor or Padme not bring in the Jedi to testify about what they observed? Even if the Trade Federation calls them liars, or otherwise denies the accusation or what have you, that only adds to the drama of the scene.

As far as the Senate being corrupt, you have a point, but it's hard to reconcile a corrupt senate with the Trade Federation's blatant lies.

No, the two go hand in hand. The TF knows it can lie and act with impunity once they know the Senate cannot or will not do anything because the senators are either on the take or just don't give a shit.

I understand that. My problem with it is that two representatives of the Jedi order directly observed the TF invade and occupy a member planet of the Republic, kidnap the ruling Head of State of said world, and attempted to (ie were going to before Obi-wan and Qui-gon intervened) coerce her into signing some bullshit treaty. When they ran the blockade, the blockade opened fire on her ship - attempted assassination at the very least (and proof of that would be in sensor logs as well as the battle damage the Queen's Nubian starcruiser sustained).

Now as far as the Senate being corrupt, I understand that's why they voted on a commission being sent to Naboo instead of direct censure being made against the Trade Federation. I just think the way it was handled by the writing felt clumsy and forced. Ultimately I understand that Palpatine wanted Valorum to get the boot so that he could get nominated in his stead, but I wonder if this couldn't have been done in a better way. It's hard to understand how the TF could think it would get away with any of the acts they've done.

To protect their mission. Same reason why not every member of Congress gets told about a CIA or SpecOps mission, even though there are Senate oversight committees. When said oversight committees need to make a decision, they question representatives of various agencies who have prepared reports and so on. I think you're reading too much into the whole 'Valorum sent them secretly therefore they're somehow not supposed to be there/can't testify etc'. Either the Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, which implies a law enforcement role as well as a mediation one, or they're not. How secretive they are in the discharge of their duties is irrelevant.

EDIT- To yet again use a real life cop analogy, you can have undercover cops who's identities are protected and who's missions are secret, yet at court they still come out and testify even under an assumed name.

Diplomats and agents are sent in secret all the time. Mark Clark was smuggled into Vichy North Africa to carry on secret talks with Jean Darlan and others French officials to get them to quit the Axis and join the Allies. It's both/and, not either/or.

I know it's both/and, Havok's the one who's claiming the Jedi aren't supposed to be there or that Valorum illegally sent them there which somehow makes their potential testimony invalidated due to perceived bias. The point I am making is that secret missions are done all the time, and the product of those secret missions can and often are used in a more 'open' way. Hence why I used the real world undercover cop analogy.

[Elfdart]

Then why did the chief Neimodian goon worry about whether invading Naboo was quote-unquote 'legal' when he was complaining to Sidious at the start of the film?

For the same reason Cheney's Willing Torturers wanted memos from lawyers telling them that torture was "legal". People like to cover their own asses on the off chance things go wrong.

You're assuming that the Senate cares.

You're absolutely right, I am assuming the Senate would give a shit about a member world being invaded by the Trade Federation when said invasion is of questionable legality (by the villains of all people).

If they cared, the Federation and its allies wouldn't have been able to sandbag the proceedings, now would they?

I guess I'm making another assumption that the Republican's guardians of peace and justice would be held in enough esteem to be granted a voice to the body their sworn to protect and serve?

Held in high esteem by whom? Ask dope-dealers what they think of the cops.

And? People tell the most brazen lies in court and in front of legislatures. People also ignore the truth when they stand to benefit, or if it will inconvenience them to accept it.

They certainly do. But why would the Chancellor or Padme not bring in the Jedi to testify about what they observed? Even if the Trade Federation calls them liars, or otherwise denies the accusation or what have you, that only adds to the drama of the scene.

The Chancellor, because he's weak and his advisers are in Palpatine's pocket. Padme, because thanks to Valorum's fecklessness, she never got the chance.

I understand that. My problem with it is that two representatives of the Jedi order directly observed the TF invade and occupy a member planet of the Republic, kidnap the ruling Head of State of said world, and attempted to (ie were going to before Obi-wan and Qui-gon intervened) coerce her into signing some bullshit treaty. When they ran the blockade, the blockade opened fire on her ship - attempted assassination at the very least (and proof of that would be in sensor logs as well as the battle damage the Queen's Nubian starcruiser sustained).

You can't start presenting evidence when the person presiding over the issue shunts it off to a bullshit commission before you can offer anything more than an opening statement.

Now as far as the Senate being corrupt, I understand that's why they voted on a commission being sent to Naboo instead of direct censure being made against the Trade Federation. I just think the way it was handled by the writing felt clumsy and forced. Ultimately I understand that Palpatine wanted Valorum to get the boot so that he could get nominated in his stead, but I wonder if this couldn't have been done in a better way. It's hard to understand how the TF could think it would get away with any of the acts they've done.

Because they're greedy and stupid and think Palpatine is an ace in their sleeve (For the most part, they're right. In AOTC, it's rather strongly implied that Gunray was no-billed and allowed to stay in business thanks to Palpatine). He isn't -they're just patsies- but they don't know that.

I know it's both/and, Havok's the one who's claiming the Jedi aren't supposed to be there or that Valorum illegally sent them there which somehow makes their potential testimony invalidated due to perceived bias. The point I am making is that secret missions are done all the time, and the product of those secret missions can and often are used in a more 'open' way. Hence why I used the real world undercover cop analogy.

Hav's idea is certainly plausible, but the mission doesn't have to be illegal for its exposure to blow up in Valorum's face AND make the Jedi's word suspect among those who are already inclined to support the Federation or just ignore it.

[Balrog]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but according to Cloak of Deception, one of the restrictions placed upon Valorum as a result of the corruption scandal he was framed for, was that he would require Senate approval before he could ask the Jedi to intervene in any official business.

I suspect, given the 'secret' nature of their appointment, and how corrupt and in bed the Senate is with the Federation, that he did not get their approval. Which I'm sure could be spun and lawyered away to dismiss anything the Jedi brought up in any hearings.

[Havok]

OH shit Balrog. I am torn... on one hand I hate the EU and try to ignore it... on the other hand...

[Galvatron]

All that tells me is that a professional author saw the same plot hole as the rest of us and saw the need to explain it in their novel.

Besides, this sums up my thoughts on using the EU to explain anything in the movies.

[stormthebeaches]

So, what is the reason Padme didn't try to present all her evidence to the Senate again?

[Elfdart]

Because the Senate was bogged down with bullshit before she could finish presenting her case. The Chancellor was weak and allowed the TF and the senator from Malastare to sandbag the proceedings and gave in to their demands. Clearly, he was no Sam Rayburn or Jim Wright.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Me and my BF caught "TPM" on 'spike' the other night and I had really forgot just how horrible it was... Every line of speech from "Young Anni" made the two of us cringe, he truly has to be one of the worst, over acting child actors of modern times.

[Havok]

So, what is the reason Padme didn't try to present all her evidence to the Senate again?

This is what happened.

Padme escapes from the blockade of Naboo that the Senate already knows about. However it is the actual invasion that is what is going to get the Senate to have to do something.

Padme goes before the Senate with no actual evidence of the invasion, other than the word of the Jedi and her own word. She also has* evidence that a ship fired on her as she was trying to run the blockade.

As Padme is about to present her case to the Senate, the TF Senator objects and asks for a commision to be sent to Naboo, which is promptly seconded. Valorum succumbs to the demands of the Trade Federation and asks her to allow a commission to be sent to Naboo to 'ascertain the truth'. Since this is exactly what Palpatine has been saying would happen, she, not having the luxury of waiting for a commission to be sent, or for anything else for that matter, calls for the no confidence vote.

Even after the NC vote has been called and before a new Chancellor is elected, Amidala decided to go back to Naboo and do whatever she could to stop the invasion and help her people.

*As I said before, this evidence does nothing to further the case of there being an actual invasion, just that a blockade actually tried to be an actual blockade.

There are a few ways you can interpret this.
One: There was no evidence of the invasion to present, and a commission would have been called for.
Two: What evidence there was, which is the word of the Jedi and the Queen, would have been insufficient to make the case with and a commission would have been called for.
Three: The evidence may have been sufficient, but would have still been bogged down in procedure and calls for a commission so the Queen didn't bother.
Four: No matter what was presented, since the Senate was so corrupt and Valorum so weak, a commission still would have been called for regardless of any evidence.
Five: Everyone on the Queen's side is a complete idiot and no one thought to present any evidence at all and a commission would have been called for.

Basically, you can make an argument for any of these, some stronger than others, but the end result is that the corrupt Senate and the weak Chancellor Vallorum could do nothing to help the Naboo.

[Channel72]

Me and my BF caught "TPM" on 'spike' the other night and I had really forgot just how horrible it was... Every line of speech from "Young Anni" made the two of us cringe, he truly has to be one of the worst, over acting child actors of modern times.

Yeah, I had a similar experience; TPM really doesn't hold up well on repeat viewings. I recall when I first saw Phantom Menace in the theatre: I remember thinking something like "okay, that wasn't as great as I had hoped, but it was still pretty good." What really impressed me was the incredible lightsabre battle at the end; I had never seen anything so intense in a Star Wars film. I was also impressed by the overall richness of the visuals, especially the Coruscant cityscape. However, after seeing it a second time, once the initial "gee-whiz factor" had worn off, I realized it really wasn't a very good movie. And it only gets worse on each subsequent viewing. The last time I saw it, which was a few months ago, I remember simply hating it. Even the lightsabre battle at the end was annoying to watch, because the movie constantly kept cutting back to silly Jar-Jar antics.

In contrast, repeat viewings of Empire Strikes Back actually have the opposite effect; sometimes you literally forget how awesome that movie is until you see it again. Seriously, rewatch the ending duel between Luke and Vader; it's literally just perfect - the atmosphere, the timing, the music, the dialogue, everything.

[starfury]

In contrast, repeat viewings of Empire Strikes Back actually have the opposite effect; sometimes you literally forget how awesome that movie is until you see it again. Seriously, rewatch the ending duel between Luke and Vader; it's literally just perfect - the atmosphere, the timing, the music, the dialogue, everything.

That was Because many people considered TESB to not be true star wars movie, it was shining dark jewel of the era of movies that that star war ANH helped to sweep away

I Posted this article several pages back, but still got no real response, but here it is again, note this was in 1997, before even the TPM appeared.

The Empire Triumpant

[Havok]

Yeah, maybe if the first line of the article was capitalized and not an incorrect quote, you would get more of a response. I'm not even going to read that, let alone take it seriously.