Waterboarding for Dummies - CIA Guidelines on Torture

[stormthebeaches]

Well, "silent majority" doesn't really affect anything if they are unwilling to say or do anything.

There has been some very vocal opposition to torture in the United States. Even John McCain was strongly opposed to torture.

[Thanas]

Well, "silent majority" doesn't really affect anything if they are unwilling to say or do anything.

There has been some very vocal opposition to torture in the United States. Even John McCain was strongly opposed to torture.

On which he promptly flip-flopped when primary season came along.

[stormthebeaches]

On which he promptly flip-flopped when primary season came along.

Really? I always thought that McCain's anti-torture stances was one of the few good things about him. Still, there has been a lot of vocal opposition to torture in the United States.

[Thanas]

On which he promptly flip-flopped when primary season came along.

Really? I always thought that McCain's anti-torture stances was one of the few good things about him. Still, there has been a lot of vocal opposition to torture in the United States.

"We always supported allowing the CIA to use extra measures."

More info here and here.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Geneva doesn't apply is only legally true because you had some folks in the justice department and the supreme court reverse over 200 years of legal precident about treaties, and invent new terms to get around the rule of law.

(sorry I'm late in responding to this, I was playing bioshock marathon mode last yesterday)

needless to say, if you love Niezche so much you need to remember that bit about hunting monsters.

[MKSheppard]

Ah, (implied) patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel.

Violating your own principles to defend.... your own principles?

Amusing.

Funnily enough, you can see this in action on this very board.

Just wait until someone does a very horrible act -- like say, boarding up their children into an unlit basement and then sexually abusing them for 20 years -- and it becomes news, and is posted on the board and you'd be surprised at how many bloodthirsty KILL HIM, TORTURE HIM, MUTILATE HIM people come out of the woodwork; people who normally would be against such extreme measures, but suddenly find no problem in applying it to that specimen.

[Stark]

While that's lame, it's irrelevant. And at least those people are actually guilty of something.

[Formless]

Also, I do believe mocking Internet Toughguy Syndrome is also par for the course. Most of it is just hyperbole anyway, not an accurate measure of what they believe. That said, it is annoyingly hypocritical.

[General Brock]

Is there any kind of statistical documentation being kept as to the actual reliability of the practice in obtaining accurate, useful and timely information from subjects, as opposed to other methods?

It seems like bragging; atrocity porn to elicit outrage and demonstrate nothing can be done about it.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Ah, (implied) patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel.

Violating your own principles to defend.... your own principles?

Amusing.

Funnily enough, you can see this in action on this very board.

Just wait until someone does a very horrible act -- like say, boarding up their children into an unlit basement and then sexually abusing them for 20 years -- and it becomes news, and is posted on the board and you'd be surprised at how many bloodthirsty KILL HIM, TORTURE HIM, MUTILATE HIM people come out of the woodwork; people who normally would be against such extreme measures, but suddenly find no problem in applying it to that specimen.

So a quick knee-jerk reaction that would never actually be act upon is comparable to consciously utilizing and refining torture methods that is laid out in instruction manuals?

Do you even read the bullshit you spout before you post?

[Akhlut]

Funnily enough, you can see this in action on this very board.

Just wait until someone does a very horrible act -- like say, boarding up their children into an unlit basement and then sexually abusing them for 20 years -- and it becomes news, and is posted on the board and you'd be surprised at how many bloodthirsty KILL HIM, TORTURE HIM, MUTILATE HIM people come out of the woodwork; people who normally would be against such extreme measures, but suddenly find no problem in applying it to that specimen.

Funnily enough, I don't give a shit about those dickheads either. Torture is wrong, regardless of who it is enacted upon. Either we try to rehabilitate those people or we execute them if the evidence is incontrovertible.

[Elfdart]

I wonder what kind of emotional reaction can be elicited by creating a youtube music video composed of clips and pictures of people being simulatedly drowned and dead Iraqis and Vietnamese kids with napalm sticking to them, with the occasional face shot of George W. Bush or something, playing to the background music of The Star Spangled Banner. After all those drowning people and dead children, you could have the final tunes playing to a slow-motion video of an airplane crashing into a skyscraper or something. The youtube comments would be glourious.

George McGovern used the famous picture of the Vietnamese girl who was burned with napalm in a campaign ad in 1972. He won one state out of fifty. The problem is that for a large number of Americans, brown people are fair game for whatever depraved act America -FUCK YEAH! sees fit to inflict on them. That's why slavers are considered national heroes. It's also why William Calley was made into a folk hero and likened to Jesus Christ. We're only a couple of generations removed from the days when people attended lynchings and posed for pictures with the victim's corpse -and sent those pictures across the country as post cards.Since bloodthirsty ghoulishness is a tradition for such a large number of Americans, don't hold hold your breath waiting for the people to rise up in righteous anger over the torture and murder of "sand niggers".

[UnderAGreySky]

Funnily enough, you can see this in action on this very board.

Just wait until someone does a very horrible act -- like say, boarding up their children into an unlit basement and then sexually abusing them for 20 years -- and it becomes news, and is posted on the board and you'd be surprised at how many bloodthirsty KILL HIM, TORTURE HIM, MUTILATE HIM people come out of the woodwork; people who normally would be against such extreme measures, but suddenly find no problem in applying it to that specimen.

Do I want to cut off the balls of convicted child rapists? Yes.

Do I think it is a good idea? Yes.

Do I think it should be public policy, law and preferred course of action by authorities AND that revenge by taking the law into your own hands should be permitted? No.

I said:

Violating your own principles to defend.... your own principles?

and I stand by it.

When Akhlut said:

Torture is wrong, regardless of who it is enacted upon. Either we try to rehabilitate those people or we execute them if the evidence is incontrovertible.

he spoke exactly my thoughts. I have no qualms with executing that s.o.b. who chained his daughter in his basement for her entire life.

People like you who want to defend your country - and with it, its ideals - and yet break those very same rules you've made for yourself. This only because you feel certain people are a threat (without evidence) and this too in the face of mountains of evidence and testimony that both show that such methods do not work and can be counter-productive. I believe you are morally bankrupt.

[irishmick79]

Is there any kind of statistical documentation being kept as to the actual reliability of the practice in obtaining accurate, useful and timely information from subjects, as opposed to other methods?

It seems like bragging; atrocity porn to elicit outrage and demonstrate nothing can be done about it.

According to this Intelligence Science Board report on torture, no. US techniques practiced over the last fifty years have not been subject to any kind of scientific or systematic inquiry or evaluation.

[General Brock]

Is there any kind of statistical documentation being kept as to the actual reliability of the practice in obtaining accurate, useful and timely information from subjects, as opposed to other methods?

It seems like bragging; atrocity porn to elicit outrage and demonstrate nothing can be done about it.

According to this Intelligence Science Board report on torture, no. US techniques practiced over the last fifty years have not been subject to any kind of scientific or systematic inquiry or evaluation.

Thanks, that link is fascinating.

Experience against the IRA suggests that there is anecdotal success in gathering intelligence using coercive methods, however, it also generated quantifiable support for the IRA. Being counterproductive is not a problem for the neocons, who use the war on terror to maintain their power base. The longer it lasts, the better; neither the Irish or the British had a significant third actor with a stake in a terrorist military-industrial complex. The mention that coercion can incite resistance in the victim is interesting.

Perhaps waterboarding is used to speed up rapport building as part of a 'good cop, bad cop' routine. Coercion incites resistance, but the method also breaks resistance while inflicting the least amount of physical and psychological damage. A skilled torturer paired with a skilled rapport builder could probably mine a lot of useless trivia. The example of the breaking of Khalid Sheik Mohammed seems more like trying to make a collaborator of sorts, rather than seek discrete intelligence.

The shortage of people with the skills to understand Islamic culture and even its language is often mentioned. Rather than rely soley on willing volunteers, of which there are few of high qualifications and reliability, they simply capture and convert a bona fide resistance member. Its not about discrete tactical problems of where the next IED will go off or finding out who and where the present resistance leaders are, but conditioning a qualified individual to help with strategic and operational planning; someone bounce off ideas, help with translations and other interrogations, give input on Islamic nations' current affairs, and so on at whatever level the resistance fighter or terrorist is capable of.

There have been instances of mafia figures turning coat and helping the police not just with evidence on their activities, but acting as valuable consultants well after their original cases were closed. This looks like a way to mimic and pervert the process of building such rapport. Khalid Sheik Mohammed would be the poster boy for the process, but the actual overall usefulness of his 'intelligence' would be very subjective.

If so this is very sophisticated antihumanitarianism and kind of feels like those cases one reads about where a kid is kidnapped, abused, and eventually is conditioned to be a willing accomplice of his captor in finding new victims. It would not be a very good investment for the cause of human dignity and freedom and other trite notions.