Hitler and repentance

[Smiling Bandit]

You'll be happy to know, Captain Cyran, that Bean's post "describing" the methods by which one may get into heaven despite acts of utter profanity, is totally bullcrock. That it has some small basis in fact is undeniable, but then, so do the best lies. Reminds of Jack Chick's garbage.

[WAG: Catholic speaking]

If one truly repents, then more or less anything can be forgiven. Even suicide, though for obvious reasons, not easily. Yes, we do consider it to be an abomination, though self-sacrifice in an of itself does not count as suicide, nor would Martyrdom.

Even Satan himself could be forgiven by God, if the Temptor truly repented and asked for it. So yes, if Hitler really did decide he was wrong and tried to atone by whatever odd method his addled brain thought up, he may enjoy the graces of heaven, though not without some time in HFIL. (see Dragon Ball Z for reference, not intended to mean Hell).

In any event, why should I hold someone who truly seeks repentence guilty? The only difference is in magnitude - for I cannot say I have not done vile things in my life.

eternity

Even eternity might end. And we cannot truly know what God has set forth for his infinte plans. Mayhap, in the end all will be reconciled. Or not.

As for the comparison to Vader's redemption: Vader was forgiven by his son , not by anyone else. Vader's redemption was important for Luke's own sense of being - for him to know that, no matter twisted his father had become, there was still good in him. Vader's killing of the Emperor and saving of Luke were admirable - but he was still an evil, murdering bastard. A change of heart brought on by watching his son getting tortured in front of him isn't enough to cancel that out.

Well, as far as the Rebellion was concerned, no, Vaer indeed was considered a fiend in the flesh. Nevertheless, in the end, popular opinion counts for nothing but hot air.

and God allowed such a man to come into the world for a specific reason anyways.

I cannot agree and disagree more. True, God did have a goal in mind in giving Hitler life. Unfortunately, Hitler most obviously did not choose to follow it. A pathetic waste.

[Priesto]

Catholic religion is incorrect so why should it matter what catholic doctrine says?Confession will only take you so far.Hitler being a christian only makes it worse and more unlikely for him to be able to repent.If you know better then you're done.If you're an atheist you don't go under the same thing.

[Stravo]

Catholic religion is incorrect so why should it matter what catholic doctrine says?Confession will only take you so far.Hitler being a christian only makes it worse and more unlikely for him to be able to repent.If you know better then you're done.If you're an atheist you don't go under the same thing.

Glad to know you have god's ear on what is true and what's not

[Stravo]

Vader was forgiven by his son, not by anyone else.

SO I guess when Anakin joined the Light Side at death that was not anyone else accepting the redemption?

[IDMR]

Hmm. Obviously in the mortal coil (we are assuming the existence of Heaven and Hell here) it is necessary to pursue a person's crimes to the fullest extent, but if we are talking about spiritual redemption, then it is a rather more complicated matter... If a person were to whole-hearted regret his sins (and not just because if he doesn't he will be dancing in Hell five seconds later, either), then he spirit (since Heaven and Hell is assumed, an immortal essence is, as well) should be given the chance of redemption. Exactly what form this could take, well consult just about every major religion on Earth (even Christianity, incidentally, that's what Purgatory is about).

Of course, since there is no evidence that such things exist, we need not concern ourselves about it.

[Darth Wong]

So far, the most popular choice seems to be "not on Earth, but maybe in the afterlife".

But here's a question for everybody to ponder, given the hypothetical assumption that this silly idea of an "afterlife" exists: what if the spirits of Hitler's victims are all up there too, and they want to see justice done? Should we ignore their wishes and grant clemency because we think his crimes are nullified by his sorrow after the fact?

[IDMR]

::kneels before the Dark Lord::

Actually, my Emperor, I am of the opinion that they should be given the chance of redemption should they repent wholeheartedly (not because of his imminent trip to tropical climes).

As for how this could work... Just consult any number of Earthly religions.

[Stravo]

So far, the most popular choice seems to be "not on Earth, but maybe in the afterlife".

But here's a question for everybody to ponder, given the hypothetical assumption that this silly idea of an "afterlife" exists: what if the spirits of Hitler's victims are all up there too, and they want to see justice done? Should we ignore their wishes and grant clemency because we think his crimes are nullified by his sorrow after the fact?

My problem with the argument that spririts in heaven or wherever will be asking for revenge means that the afterlife will be a nasty place because there will be feuds brewing from the dawn of time, Genghis Kahn's victims will be out for blood, etc. Where does it end? Isn't eternal rest supposed to be eternal and restful? If we carry grudges and desires for revenge in our hearts A. CAN we get into heaven? B. How is heaven different then here?

Punishment is meted out at the judgement and thats it, only God can truly judge because he can see into a man's heart and is wise enough to know what is a fitting punishment (we hope)

So either we accept the following:

A. The Afterlife will be just as nasty and fracticious as it is here on earth (What's the point then?)

B. The Afterlife will only allow revenge and grudges in hell or purgatory since such feelings would disqualify one from heaven.

C. The Afterlife is blissful and all grudges are forgotten as we bask in eternal peace and solace. (Sounds kind of boring.)

D. Oblivion

[Darth Wong]

My problem with the argument that spririts in heaven or wherever will be asking for revenge means that the afterlife will be a nasty place because there will be feuds brewing from the dawn of time, Genghis Kahn's victims will be out for blood, etc. Where does it end? Isn't eternal rest supposed to be eternal and restful? If we carry grudges and desires for revenge in our hearts A. CAN we get into heaven? B. How is heaven different then here?

God carries grudges. He's even acted on them in the past, with brutal results. Why would grudges not be allowed in Heaven? More to the point, how would they be removed, and would it be just to boot people out of Heaven for carrying justifiably bad thoughts in their heads after being tortured to death in a Nazi death camp?

Punishment is meted out at the judgement and thats it, only God can truly judge because he can see into a man's heart and is wise enough to know what is a fitting punishment (we hope)

So it's OK for God to punish people for crimes committed against other people, but it's not OK for the victims to demand punishment? You have no problem with Heaven if it's run by a guy who exacts punishment based on his own criteria and authority which he shares with no one, but you can't deal with the idea of Heaven if it contains innocent victims who carry a grudge? WTF?

So either we accept the following:

A. The Afterlife will be just as nasty and fracticious as it is here on earth (What's the point then?)

If there's such a place as Heaven and Hell, then it is more nasty than Earth.

B. The Afterlife will only allow revenge and grudges in hell or purgatory since such feelings would disqualify one from heaven.

Ah, so an innocent victim who is robbed of his life and who watches his children tortured to death is not allowed to be thinking bad thoughts when he gets to the pearly gates, or he's going straight to Hell. Nice.

C. The Afterlife is blissful and all grudges are forgotten as we bask in eternal peace and solace. (Sounds kind of boring.)

That's exactly what I believe, since I don't believe in any form of afterlife apart from oblivion. Can't get much more peaceful than that. Unfortunately, that's not justice either, but at least no one tries to pretend it is.

[VilliageIdiot]

So do apologies matter? If they matter, how much should they matter? Should punishments be slightly reduced? Or totally eliminated, as per the Christian philosophy? Can you justify your answer?

No, apologies shouldn't matter. What's done is done. No amount of verbal apologies or apologetic actions will undo the harm that was committed. Punishment should then naturally follow.

If the apology was genuine, then the person must possess the capacity to rationalize if an action was right or wrong. Since this person has the capacity to do so, then he/she must also realise that there are consequences for all actions and therefore has already acquiescented to suffer the punishment if he/she committs a wrong. Later apologies do not negate this previous acquiescence and should not have an affect on the punishment recieved.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Hitler did not worship nor believe in the son of God so an apology to something he doesn't believe will get him nothing.Repentence isn't a simple apology, it takes time.Through good works in the Lord's name and so forth.Of course if he did somehow wholeheartedly repent, he'd still suffer some.That couldn't happen due to his raising though, and God allowed such a man to come into the world for a specific reason anyways.Just like Lucifer, there's a time where it's too late.Someone full of hate could never turn back after a while, since evil consumes.

Read the damn site priesto.

And also I agree with you for once, catholic dogma dogma is not true, but niether is the bible, and if it is god is an evil bastard not worthy of our worship.

[Kolinar Romanov]

You better Belive it!

Repetance is part and Parcel of the Catholic Church, Infact this is somthing I learned from Christian Friends long ago, Do you know there are not one, not two, but SIX ways to get into Heaven No matter what your actions on the Planet are?

If I drink the blood of a Thousand Newborns, Removed the Viture from a million women and take a leak on the rock in the dome of the Rock I still have Six possibilites to get into Heaven by Cathloic standereds?

The First is the classic, A personal, Note PERSONAL blessing by anyone of Arch-Decon or Higher Status automaticly absovles you of all sins, Set the Arc of the Convent on Fire? No Biggy The Pope can make that bad sin go away

Second is an out-shoot of the first, If you become a Priest your automaticly absolved of all Sins to that Point and as long as your given last rights by a fellow Priest you are absolved of everything at death

Third that which formed the Basis for the Movie Dodgma, Yes indeed its true, Get out of Sin free if you walk through the Doors of a Church on the day of its Re-consetrcation

Fourth- This one is some-what iffy as I get mixed reports on it, As long as you wear a "Rosrary"(Small necklace) at all times until you die you are automactiyl allowed into Heaven all sins forgiven

Five- Be the Pope, If your the Pope you get into Heaven no matter what
Past or Present, even if your kicked out of Popeship you still get in for holding the title

Six-While any old Prieset Can give you last rights and any old High Church Offical Can absolve you of all sins at any time except Death, The Pope himself if he gives you last rights you get into Heaven

Christianity is a fun religion

*Edit later oh yes and the other possible is Seven its not done much today but if you Give your eartly Possiesions to the Church on your Death-bed and repent then you get in to
It was done all the time in earlier years but the Church stoped because they owned most everything and people smarted up

Christianity eh ? Yeah, it's a funny old religion.

A small fallacy is that the rosary is not a necklace. In fact, it should not be worn at all (except only by die-hard catholics who do nothing but pray and work, and completely abhor sin to the point that they lock themselves up in a secluded area to prevent themselves from sinning.) The orsary is really a string of beads, each bead representing a prayer. Ideally, while using the rosary, while you count each bead, you say the prayer for that bead. ALso, wearing the rodsary is uncomrforttable, so only the die-hards really do it. The rosary is not a necklace, nor is it an amulet. Just a string of beads used in prayer.

Also, for all sevento work, I have to add : they only work wioth absolute faith.

~

Hitler ? SUrely worse people have done worsh shit than him ? He wasn't the one who did the killing (he gave the wrod though.)

Besides, Hitler can be saved, but his repentance will be one big-ass one.......

[C.S.Strowbridge]

More to the point, how would they be removed,

I think I read in the Bible that your memory gets whiped clean when you enter heaven.

[Priesto]

Simply going under the title as a christian, doesn't make you a christian.God holds no grudge, but God judges all.Memory is whiped clean, when we arrive on earth that's for sure.To remember the goodness of heaven? defenitely not worthy.

[XPViking]

Memory is whiped clean, when we arrive on earth that's for sure.To remember the goodness of heaven? defenitely not worthy. - Priesto

Ummm, are you saying that we came from someplace else before we arrived on Earth?

XPViking

[Cpt_Frank]

Simple question, simple answer:
1. Hitler can never be forgiven.
2. He's dead, ie nonexistent anymore to the best of our knowledge
or
only existent in a state totally different from the one during his lifetime ie has lost anything which once defined him (such as memories, personality, a body etc), and is also unable to interfere with our world in any way.

I cannot agree and disagree more. True, God did have a goal in mind in giving Hitler life. Unfortunately, Hitler most obviously did not choose to follow it. A pathetic waste.

Apart from the Hitler issue, are you trying to say that if you don't do what God had in mind for your life it's wasted? Sounds a bit fundie-ish to me...

[Smiling Bandit]

Sigh, there are so many people out there who'll give any cause they vaguely associate themselves with a bad name (and this time I'm definitely not even considering Wong in this cetegory).

SO I guess when Anakin joined the Light Side at death that was not anyone else accepting the redemption?

Do I have to spell it out for you? Who else but Luke ever forgave him in life? Did the rebellion start printing "Darth Vader Approved" on all of their ships and business cards?

As to Wong's objection, I disagree that God carries grudges, though He can be less than pleasant. His brand of Tough Love is likely to be, well, tough.

That aside, however, I most certainly do not agree that in heaven we will hold old grudges (hence Purgatory). After Purgatory, we won't need such things anymore, and will shed them like dirt after a bath. That doesn't mean we cannot dissaprove or dislike Evil and Sin, but will no longer need the kind of hatred and personal disgust directed at people.

[Stravo]

Quote:
SO I guess when Anakin joined the Light Side at death that was not anyone else accepting the redemption?


Do I have to spell it out for you? Who else but Luke ever forgave him in life? Did the rebellion start printing "Darth Vader Approved" on all of their ships and business cards?


POINT OUT WHERE I SAID THE REBELS OR ANYONE ELSE OTHER THAN LUKE FORGAVE HIM.....

The point I was trying to make is that the Light side of the Force accepted him back after Vader did penance and slew the emperor, sacrificing his own life for a son he did not know, something no self respecting Sith would do. THUS redeeming himself in the eyes of THE FORCE. The point being that if we look on the force as a sort of god then we can see the theme of redemption played out.

[Smiling Bandit]

Alright then we agree. I thought you were being sarcastic.

[ArmorPierce]

Hitler did not worship nor believe in the son of God

My God (not literally), heres another Christian that denies that Hitler was a devout Christian. Lord Wong, show him some quotes from you website on the Hitler section.

[ArmorPierce]

Hitler did not worship nor believe in the son of God

My God (not literally), heres another Christian that denies that Hitler was a devout Christian. Lord Wong, show him some quotes from you website on the Hitler section.

[Darth Wong]

Lord Wong, show him some quotes from you website on the Hitler section.

Someone else may have already pointed to this, but here it is again:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... tler.shtml

Anyone can read "Mein Kampf" and see what Hitler was. And did I mention he was a Catholic altar boy as a child? Perhaps it was all of that ass-fucking in the rectory that drove him to be the way he was.

PS. Some prime examples, in Hitler's own words:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."- Mein Kampf, Volume 1, Chapter 2

"... the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous ..."- Mein Kampf, Volume 1, Chapter 11

Hmmm ... sounds like a Christian to me. Unless we use one of those annoying circular-logic arguments that goes along the lines of "Christians are good. Hitler was not good, so Hitler could not have been a Christian. Therefore, you're wrong about how Christians are not necessarily good."

PPS. Note that most people who try to provide counter-quotes of Hitler disparaging Christianity are actually pulling them from a couple of widely discredited hearsay sources. "Mein Kampf" is known to have been written by Hitler himself, and it documented all of his major beliefs (it even telegraphed his long-term plans, including the "surprise" attack on Russia).

[Enforcer Talen]

course, that begs the question - who's good enough to get into heaven?

[Darth Wong]

course, that begs the question - who's good enough to get into heaven?

Nobody, since Heaven doesn't exist (unless you look for it between the legs of a beautiful woman)

[Priesto]

Nobody read my prior post? Granted I new of this but forgot, doesn't change anything though.Anyone can call themselves a christian, no big deal.Hitler would go to hell after a point no matter what.