Israel claims more Lebensraum

[bobalot]

I notice once upon a time Israeli apologists in America would simply ignore the problem of settlements (because they are indefensible), but it's gotten to the point where even they think the Israelis are assholes.

[Guardsman Bass]

The main thing that works against such a conspiracy theory is that I can't see successive Israeli governments, as freaking dysfunctional as they are, agreeing and working towards one plan.

I don't see it as some type of "long game" either. I think it's a result of various short-term things, like political pressure from pro-settler groups (and the religious groups with political clout that support), and ever-increasing security clampdowns by the Israeli government.

And even if it does work, the Palestinians are going to be unhappiest bunch of people on the planet. I guess Israel won't give a fuck.

Pretty much. Most westerners (particularly Americans) won't give a fuck either, but then most Americans in particular don't really know or care about the Middle East unless the US is fighting a war there.

The one thing that would really sour the arrangement for Israel would be if any of the major Arab players that either openly or covertly works with the Israeli government (I'm thinking Egypt, Jordan, and the like) democratized. I can't see a democratic regime in either, say, Egypt or Jordan keeping diplomatic relations with Israel (and particularly in the case of Jordan, the majority of whose population is composed of the descendants of 1948-49 Palestinian refugees), at least in the short-term.

I doubt they'd be a major threat, but the border situation would be precarious again.

Well, they could always try overthrowing Jordan/Lebanon again.

The best way for them to do the former would be just to push for greater democratization in Jordan. It's a country the majority of whose citizens are of Palestinian descent, and would presumably dominate in any democratic government (unless the Jordanian government does what it did to West Bank Palestinians after the 1967 War and to some of the people of Palestinian descent in Jordan today, and revokes their citizenship en masse).

The Palestinians . . . well, nobody in the region really likes the Palestinians

This applies to some of the governments, particularly Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but not really to the Arab populace as a whole, who tend to be very sympathetic to the Palestinians.

[Vastatosaurus Rex]

I have come across the "Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jews" argument a fair few times as well.

How many of the Jews currently living in Israel right now are actually descended from the original Hebrews, as opposed to Europeans and other peoples who converted to Judaism? If anyone in this debacle has a significant degree of Hebrew ancestry, it would be the Palestinians, not the European Jews who founded modern Israel.

[Simon_Jester]

Now that raises an odd question: how many people in any place are descended in any degree from the originals? Jews in Europe didn't intermarry with the rest of the population much, and generally converted to Christianity when they did, so they stayed pretty insular throughout that period (especially the Ashkenazim).

But sheer statistics indicates that if your ancestors come from the right part of the planet and you go back far enough, you're descended from everyone. This is why, for example, we see so many instances of what is believed to be Ghengis Khan's Y chromosome. Given that for every male-line descendant of the man, there must be a huge number of people whose line of descent from him included one or more females who didn't pass on the Y chromosome... odds are that everyone in East Asia is descended from that guy.

[Elfdart]

Question; as Israel is an illegitimate state, what should be done about it? Should they all pack up and move? Is invasion and displacement a proper response? I disagree with Israel's expansionist policies and occupations, but they're also the most stable and most progressive state in the region, even with their fundamentalist population, and they certainly the most democratic and inclusive culture in the Middle East, which I know isn't saying much. Most of the people living there nowadays were born there or moved there when they were very young, so I'm not sure it'd be fair to deconstruct the country.

Since divorce is no longer an option, Israel should give up on Jewish privilege, just as South Africa and Mississippi gave up on white privilege. Then maybe they could form a union with Jordan kind of like Benelux.

The more likely outcome is the total ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, which is what Israel and its fanwhore apologists wanted all along.

[Vastatosaurus Rex]

The more likely outcome is the total ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, which is what Israel and its fanwhore apologists wanted all along.

That would depend on whether the US continues to support Israel. The only reason the Israelis haven't already committed a genocide of Biblical proportions against the Palestinians is because they are under America's scrutiny. Remove that scrutiny, and the Israelis will probably go berserk. I know people who don't think the US should support Israel won't like that thought, but our ties with Israel are the only thing keeping the Palestinians alive.

[stormthebeaches]

US/Isreal relations at historic low.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... ambassador

Obama aides call the plan an insult.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... erritories

Maybe the US might finally cut support for Israel?

[Guardsman Bass]

No. It's a lot of talk, but I don't see any willingness to clamp down on the US's part, not even on the level of what Bush Sr and James Baker did back in the late 1980s/early 1990s (held up loan guarantees for re-settling Russian immigrants in Israel).

[eyl]

This applies to some of the governments, particularly Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but not really to the Arab populace as a whole, who tend to be very sympathetic to the Palestinians.

Only to a degree. They're sympathetic as long as the Palestinians are far away. Otherwise...look how th Palestinians are treated in Lebanon, or what happened to Palestinians in Iraq after Saddams regime was toppled.

That would depend on whether the US continues to support Israel. The only reason the Israelis haven't already committed a genocide of Biblical proportions against the Palestinians is because they are under America's scrutiny. Remove that scrutiny, and the Israelis will probably go berserk. I know people who don't think the US should support Israel won't like that thought, but our ties with Israel are the only thing keeping the Palestinians alive.

[sarcasm]Yeah, I'm just waiting until we can start making Palburgers[/sarcasm]

Seriously, care to support this assertion somehow?

[hongi]

Pretty much. Most westerners (particularly Americans) won't give a fuck either, but then most Americans in particular don't really know or care about the Middle East unless the US is fighting a war there.

I'm just trying to imagine what this would look like, and the only thing I can think of is 'nightmare'. It might be better for Israel in the sense of national security, but the Palestinians will remain festering there at the centre of the national psyche like a wound that just won't go away. It will probably ruin any chance of reconciliation between the two peoples, because nothing engenders long-lasting ethnic hatred than one side 'winning' by disposessing the other. Moreover, it will probably radicalise the Palestinians en masse, crammed into what could only really be called ghettos...and the neighbouring Arab countries will use their plight to continue to antagonise Israel. Is there really no other way?

[Darth Yan]

obama rebuked them earlier. Also, he could theoritically withold money until Israel cuts the crap. I see theoreticall because it's not gonna happen, given that this is an election year, and he's in a tough spot as it is.

[Guardsman Bass]

obama rebuked them earlier. Also, he could theoritically withold money until Israel cuts the crap. I see theoreticall because it's not gonna happen, given that this is an election year, and he's in a tough spot as it is.

He could try to withhold money, but remember that Congress could (and in this case, likely would) pass a bill authorizing funding for Israel right over his veto and naysay. Fighting that is a political battle with Congress he would probably not want to get into while he's trying to get the health care reform bill passed.