Have there been any good Stargate Vs X threads? I'm particularly interested in how the technology stacks up against Trek. I did some forum searching, but the only Gate vs Trek thread I found was to do with quality of writing, not technology. So a few subquestions:
- Is there a Stargate calc thread for the firepower carried by a BC-304 series ship, before and after Asgard beams?
- I know there are hyperdrive calcs, but I've forgotten where they were and what they concluded. I'm fairly certain they owned Trek hard though, if memory serves correctly.
- Do we have yields for things like the Naquadah enhanced nukes? The one from the Ori-Stargate-shield-nuke episode is of interest particularly.
Stargate vs ???
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Stargate vs ???
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Stargate vs ???
If I recall things correctly, most of the Nukes used by SGC range from the higher Gigaton range to the lower Teraton range.
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SapphireFox
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Re: Stargate vs ???
Considering that a BC-304 is able to make it to the Pegasus galaxy from the Milky Way in I believe two weeks, that Stargate would own Star Wars for speed. Which most definitely curbstomp trek for speed.
SG Nukes are shown to be MASSIVELY greater yield than photon torpedoes.
I'm curious does anyone have calcs for SG energy weapons for comparisons?
SG Nukes are shown to be MASSIVELY greater yield than photon torpedoes.
I'm curious does anyone have calcs for SG energy weapons for comparisons?
You will see the tears of time.
Re: Stargate vs ???
Said enhanced nukes also do jack shite against enemy vessels while shielded, just from memory (Season 1 finale et al.)
But in terms of an actual vs confrontation, individual superiority isn't the only thing to consider. The UFP is a gazillion times larger than the combined nations of Earth are in SG, for instance, and as of 2010 there's only a handful of 304's, which represent the entire space forces of Earth.
But in terms of an actual vs confrontation, individual superiority isn't the only thing to consider. The UFP is a gazillion times larger than the combined nations of Earth are in SG, for instance, and as of 2010 there's only a handful of 304's, which represent the entire space forces of Earth.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Stargate vs ???
The impression I have is that the problem with the nukes is not so much insufficient yield but the delivery systems. If the missile can't penetrate the shields, they won't do much even if some of the energy penetrates the shields, since the target is protected by distance from the explosion. All the SG shields seem to be of the "barrier" type, i.e. they stop physical objects like a physical wall.adam_grif wrote:Said enhanced nukes also do jack shite against enemy vessels while shielded, just from memory (Season 1 finale et al.)
Re: Stargate vs ???
Well, even when they go off a distance from the ship, they're still < a few hundred meters away from the hull (unless you've got some screenies that indicate otherwise, I'm not prepared to trust my memory implicitly), and the energy does appear to be stopped by the shields.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Stargate vs ???
An edit of the ghetto variety:
Tracked down S02E01, the "Goa'uld Buster" missiles that the Ha'Taks laugh off have a yeild "in excess of 1000 megatonnes" (EDIT: To clarify, they struck the shields, but they certainly detonated with far greater than regular explosive force. It's not 100% clear if they actually fully detonated or not however). Stargate Wiki surfing, we later get the Mk IX warhead, which is reportedly much more powerful than this, and has a total destruction radius of at least 100 miles.
If anybody would care to work backwards from the 100 mile radius figure, given that the 1.2 MT B83 warhead reportedly has a total destruction radius of 9.26 miles. I'm going to assume that it will be an impressive figure, due to the inverse square crap.
Tracked down S02E01, the "Goa'uld Buster" missiles that the Ha'Taks laugh off have a yeild "in excess of 1000 megatonnes" (EDIT: To clarify, they struck the shields, but they certainly detonated with far greater than regular explosive force. It's not 100% clear if they actually fully detonated or not however). Stargate Wiki surfing, we later get the Mk IX warhead, which is reportedly much more powerful than this, and has a total destruction radius of at least 100 miles.
If anybody would care to work backwards from the 100 mile radius figure, given that the 1.2 MT B83 warhead reportedly has a total destruction radius of 9.26 miles. I'm going to assume that it will be an impressive figure, due to the inverse square crap.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Stargate vs ???
Um, with the 'Gou'ald buster'.
I'd like to point out that was the SGCS first attempt at making an enhanced nuke, and they really had no idea if it would work.
For all we know, it didn't. The numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
I'd like to point out that was the SGCS first attempt at making an enhanced nuke, and they really had no idea if it would work.
For all we know, it didn't. The numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: Stargate vs ???
And I think they really didn't know that the Goa'uld ships had shields. So the missiles hit the shields and got destroyed before the nukes could detonate.
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SapphireFox
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Re: Stargate vs ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm43Pzy1 ... re=related
If you look at 2:21 you can see that the missle faceplants into the sheild and there is no NUCLEAR detonation.
If you look at 2:21 you can see that the missle faceplants into the sheild and there is no NUCLEAR detonation.
You will see the tears of time.
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NecronLord
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Re: Stargate vs ???
SGverse has a firepower problem; in that its high end (huge nukes, chain reaction bombs fired from Tel'taks that destroy large moons, etc etc) is massively above its low end (stick-of-dynamite level ha'tak bombardments in say, The Warrior).
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Re: Stargate vs ???
*Shrug*SapphireFox wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm43Pzy1 ... re=related
If you look at 2:21 you can see that the missle faceplants into the sheild and there is no NUCLEAR detonation.
It's a pretty big explosion. I know it's not GT level, but it looks far too large for something that isn't supposed to have exploded at all. Things that don't explode don't look like that.
Variable yield energy weapons?SGverse has a firepower problem; in that its high end (huge nukes, chain reaction bombs fired from Tel'taks that destroy large moons, etc etc) is massively above its low end (stick-of-dynamite level ha'tak bombardments in say, The Warrior).
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Stargate vs ???
Gheddit:
Hey, doesn't Trek also have the low end problem too, with the "jump to evade photon torpedo" stuff in one of the movies?
Hey, doesn't Trek also have the low end problem too, with the "jump to evade photon torpedo" stuff in one of the movies?
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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NecronLord
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Re: Stargate vs ???
The thing is, there's no real high end examples for the energy weapons; the highest I can think of against a calcable target offhand is an Anubis ha'tak blowing up Nimitz in one shot.
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"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
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SapphireFox
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Re: Stargate vs ???
Yes but it doesn't look anything like a NUCLEAR explosion considering an ICBM is mostly fuel and oxidizer I am not surprised that the explosion was that big. Was it not said that the warhead of the Exocet missile that took out that British destroyer in the Falklands War failed to detonate and that the explosion was just the remaining fuel going off.adam_grif wrote:*Shrug*SapphireFox wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm43Pzy1 ... re=related
If you look at 2:21 you can see that the missle faceplants into the sheild and there is no NUCLEAR detonation.
It's a pretty big explosion. I know it's not GT level, but it looks far too large for something that isn't supposed to have exploded at all. Things that don't explode don't look like that.
You will see the tears of time.
Re: Stargate vs ???
Do we have any examples of nukes detonating near shields? I could have sworn we did, at least in Atlantis or something. I mean, they must have high yeilds otherwise everybody would just detonate Naquadah bombs before it struck the enemy shields yeah? The Ha'tak craft don't appear to have any point defenses or anything, just relying on their shields. I hardly think they'd rely on sticks of dynamite to blow things up, as it were. If that was their actual full power, how the frack would they ever do any real damage to enemy ships, even without shields up? C4 was only effective when placed on the interior near vulnerable points.The thing is, there's no real high end examples for the energy weapons; the highest I can think of against a calcable target offhand is an Anubis ha'tak blowing up Nimitz in one shot.
The explosion looked like one of those stereotypical "nuclear mushroom clouds" (because only nukes create them, as we all know
Yes but it doesn't look anything like a NUCLEAR explosion considering an ICBM is mostly fuel and oxidizer I am not surprised that the explosion was that big. Was it not said that the warhead of the Exocet missile that took out that British destroyer failed to detonate and that the explosion was just the remaining fuel going off.
) transposed into space. You may be right here, I'm willing to look for other examples. I seem to recall nukes being used on Wraith craft detonated outside their hulls w/ shields up but I might have just dreamed that up. I'll have to look for it.We also have the Asurans in First Strike, but IIRC the nukes were only effective because they were taken unprepared with shields down? Have to look over it later.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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SapphireFox
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Re: Stargate vs ???
That's bull did you watch the scene? The explosion wasn't even remotely mushroom shaped. Either explosion for that matter. More of a sideways blob if you ask me.adam_grif wrote:The explosion looked like one of those stereotypical "nuclear mushroom clouds" (because only nukes create them, as we all know )
Don't know about the other questions I will do a little net searching and see what I can find.
You will see the tears of time.
Re: Stargate vs ???
Naquadah has shown it can go nuclear from chemical reactions and running a freaking current through it, and Naquadriah can go nuclear from physical impacts.
It is likely the Naquadah in boosted nukes cooked off, but we have no idea how much energy got pumped out.
One thing to keep in mind, in Stargate beam weaponary is often designed to pierce shielding and cost more shielding 'ompf' to defend against compared to a straight DEW attack.
It is likely the Naquadah in boosted nukes cooked off, but we have no idea how much energy got pumped out.
One thing to keep in mind, in Stargate beam weaponary is often designed to pierce shielding and cost more shielding 'ompf' to defend against compared to a straight DEW attack.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
Re: Stargate vs ???
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Stargate vs ???
General Hammod talking to the president.SapphireFox wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm43Pzy1 ... re=related
If you look at 2:21 you can see that the missle faceplants into the sheild and there is no NUCLEAR detonation.
"Yes Sir, the EMP caused by the explosion has already affected our satelite communications."
3:35
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"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
Re: Stargate vs ???
There would be no mushroom cloud in space. Mushroom cloud is a result of atmospheric interaction.SapphireFox wrote:That's bull did you watch the scene? The explosion wasn't even remotely mushroom shaped. Either explosion for that matter. More of a sideways blob if you ask me.adam_grif wrote:The explosion looked like one of those stereotypical "nuclear mushroom clouds" (because only nukes create them, as we all know )
Don't know about the other questions I will do a little net searching and see what I can find.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Kamakazie Sith
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Re: Stargate vs ???
Trek does have this problem, but that movie has never been a good example, and I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up. That's kinda like saying Slave 1 isn't capable of KT burst because Jango and Obi Wan weren't vaporized when it is quite clear that Boba probably didn't want to kill Jango. Likewise, the crew of the Enterprise probably didn't want to kill Kirk and Co., and Kirk probably wanted to escape since the only threat posed by wannabe god was only to those on the planet.adam_grif wrote:Gheddit:
Hey, doesn't Trek also have the low end problem too, with the "jump to evade photon torpedo" stuff in one of the movies?
(assuming you're thinking of STV, but if you're thinking of First Contact with the borg sphere then disregard)
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Re: Stargate vs ???
I'm aware, but there is a perception in the media that "mushroom cloud = nuclear", even though it requires atmosphere and a sufficiently large device (doesn't have to be a nuke either, just a sufficiently large bang). You also see mushroom clouds on ridiculously low yield nuclear explosives in fiction. The explosion kind of looked like that (or at least I thought it did, I may have to go back and watch again), which would be evidence of it actually going nuclear (even though it shouldn't be there).Alyeska wrote: There would be no mushroom cloud in space. Mushroom cloud is a result of atmospheric interaction.
The plot thickens.General Hammod talking to the president.
"Yes Sir, the EMP caused by the explosion has already affected our satelite communications."
I don't know why other people bring it up, but I was using it as an example of a similar situation in Trek that we have in Gate, where the Ha'Tak's bombarding the surface were apparently using some kind of low-yield weapon. It seems absolutely ludicrous that the main gun of a Goa'uld mothership would create those pathetic puffs of smoke, which have approximate parity to the pathetic death-glider guns.Trek does have this problem, but that movie has never been a good example, and I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'
'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
Re: Stargate vs ???
Hatak guns make a hell of noise, shake the ground and are visible bolts of lightning from the sky. For the Goa'uld that type of setting is basicly what they want as a freaking terror weapon. Military effectiveness is largely irrelevant for them untill it was late season 7 to 8.
So what if it would take them days to dismantle Modern Earth with orbital bombardment? You are subjecting entire planetary populations to massive shock and awe and probably ensuring a large chunk can't sleep through the time period. The entire thing is designed to break entire peoples, and for the Goa'uldto have a awesome lightshow at the same time.
In many respects, the Wraith are similar.
So what if it would take them days to dismantle Modern Earth with orbital bombardment? You are subjecting entire planetary populations to massive shock and awe and probably ensuring a large chunk can't sleep through the time period. The entire thing is designed to break entire peoples, and for the Goa'uldto have a awesome lightshow at the same time.
In many respects, the Wraith are similar.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
Re: Stargate vs ???
Well, and you have to remember, the Ha'tak taking days to dismantle a planet is totally cool according to the System Lords. They don't mind wasting shitloads of their time just dropping shots onto a planet, but something as densely populated as Earth is still a huge, huge issue for them. They're just patient enough to bomb people to death over a long period, or try to do something sneaky like slip a bomb through the gate. They would much rather have their stupidly designed flying pyramids and satisfy their overwhelming, crippling sense of vanity than knuckle down and build something strictly effective. Goa'uld vessels are like 90 percent defense, 10 percent offense, and geared towards dealing with far-flung settlements of pre-industrial humans. A single drone can basically crush a Ha'tak. Outside of their shields, those ships are garbage.
I mean, hell, they don't even bother to design new weapons. They just take bigass staff weapons and mount them on the gliders, the bottom of the Al'kesh, and I swear they use the same things on the Ha'tak batteries and just pump more power into it.
But you very rarely see Earth directly threatened because of the Asgard treaty. When talking about badass ships, the Asgard are a lot more powerful than anything the system lords have at their disposal. Several other forces (including one-off forces) can beat the shit out of Ha'tak, they just don't have numbers. Really, the Goa'uld motherships only look badass until you realize that they don't do anything serious without about 15-20 of them at once.
The only species in Stargate that uses ships purely militarily are humans. The Asgard vessels, though powerful, were over-weighted in speed and not in gunnery. The Ori flying ox-yokes were terror weapons mass-produced with an oversized main beam weapon, decent hyperdrive, and the rest of their systems depending heavily on the Priors. Ha'tak are garbage, and even the relatively uncreative Goa'uld are able to make much more advanced versions (like Apophis' improved design) pretty quickly. They're the Hummers of space travel.
I mean, hell, they don't even bother to design new weapons. They just take bigass staff weapons and mount them on the gliders, the bottom of the Al'kesh, and I swear they use the same things on the Ha'tak batteries and just pump more power into it.
But you very rarely see Earth directly threatened because of the Asgard treaty. When talking about badass ships, the Asgard are a lot more powerful than anything the system lords have at their disposal. Several other forces (including one-off forces) can beat the shit out of Ha'tak, they just don't have numbers. Really, the Goa'uld motherships only look badass until you realize that they don't do anything serious without about 15-20 of them at once.
The only species in Stargate that uses ships purely militarily are humans. The Asgard vessels, though powerful, were over-weighted in speed and not in gunnery. The Ori flying ox-yokes were terror weapons mass-produced with an oversized main beam weapon, decent hyperdrive, and the rest of their systems depending heavily on the Priors. Ha'tak are garbage, and even the relatively uncreative Goa'uld are able to make much more advanced versions (like Apophis' improved design) pretty quickly. They're the Hummers of space travel.