Stargate vs ???

[NecronLord]

Yes, if they know about Stargate command and know what a Stargate is / how to use it,

All of which would be elementary to work out. Remember rebel Jem'hadar a trek species not known for their smarts, managed to canoicially work out how to operate an iconian portal without any help, and those things are much harder to use than a stargate. Similarly, it won't take them long to realise that the stargate system is centred on earth. And if they're in the SG galaxy, they're going to find stargates.

They can only even know these things if you grant them this knowledge by magic

It's fucking obvious. Daniel Jackson, an archeologist, managed to work it out in a few days. Are you suggesting that the Obsidian Order can't?

or torture it out of personnel, as you say, but what personnel? Did they find the Alpha site? Did they somehow capture a 304 in tact with it's crew alive? I suppose that's possible, but as long as the Tauri aren't brain-dead they'll be traveling in packs and retreating at the first sign of trouble. It's not like the Trek powers can pursue them at any great speed.

Step one would be to investigate the heart of this strange new portal system, using cloaked ships. Stage two would be to just invade the SGC, if we're talking about a Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order attack. And stargates are so obvious that Hathor could apparently detect it with at best, five thousand year old handheld equipment. Fuck, they could just beam up SGC personnel in their cars as they leave the mountain car park (Admittedly, they'll get a lot of NORAD people too) how are the SGC going to stop them?

Right, and maybe turbolasers won't do any damage to the Enterprise either. We obviously can't run lab trials here. There are so many unknowns in this vs that we either have to start making assumptions or abandon it entirely.

The difference is, there's a wealth of information on what a turbolaser can do, that's why we know they won't. In comparison, we've never seen asgard beams hit something that's not another ship.

The Asgard beams haven't yet encountered a shield they can't cut straight through without effort,

They haven't yet encountered one powered by a pocket black hole. </wank> - you really don't know what they can do.

and they're clearly powerful enough to destroy starships several times larger than the Odyssey. The only ship they've ever had trouble with was the wanktastic ZPM hive, which apparently overcomes their power by having an ultra dense hull (??). We don't have any idea how the Asgard beams work, although SGWiki says they're plasma beams.

The Biliskner is powered by four neutrino-ion generators. In your Earth units of measurement, each engine outputs a maximum of one billion kilojoules.

Are the units they gave correct? Shouldn't there be a "per second" in there somewhere? Or is that total energy it can output with maximum fuel stores?

That strikes me as... very unimpressive.

It's actually cut off in the show at 'kilo' and you can't hear it after that. He may be about to say 'one billion kilotons per gramme of fuel consumed' or something.

[adam_grif]

All of which would be elementary to work out. Remember rebel Jem'hadar a trek species not known for their smarts, managed to canoicially work out how to operate an iconian portal without any help, and those things are much harder to use than a stargate. Similarly, it won't take them long to realise that the stargate system is centred on earth. And if they're in the SG galaxy, they're going to find stargates.

1. What the fuck is an Iconian portal, and what the fuck is a Jem'hadar?

2. I didn't say they couldn't work it out, but it's only useful if they can work it out on a timescale fast enough for them to siege Earth before their military gets defeated. We know that SG nukes, if not beam weapons, are going to fucking instagib ST ships if they land a blow.

3. If it's the whole network and not just SGC / Tauri controlled worlds, then the Tauri also have help from the Tokra and the Free Jafa. This increases their access to starships, Naquadah and other resources. Can these factions yu mentioned take them all on before they get wiped? Don't forget that SG powers all have cloaking technology too, and are by no means dummies. The biggest disadvantage the SGC has is that other than Earth they don't have any other large population centers. They also don't have any major enemies at the moment, and may be complacent for that reason.

All they have to do is hold Earth.

Fuck, they could just beam up SGC personnel in their cars as they leave the mountain car park (Admittedly, they'll get a lot of NORAD people too) how are the SGC going to stop them?

If they were already AT Earth, they may as well just invade it instead, or drop some big ass bombs. I don't think gating out to blow up the Alpha site is really the optimal tactic since the ships clearly have enough fuel for an intergalactic journey, and they can get more by calling in some favors on Alien worlds. Running out of big nukes is the only thing I can think of, and if all they need is naquadah it's the same as the fuel situation. Can Asgard cores generate bombs or something?

It's actually cut off in the show at 'kilo' and you can't hear it after that. He may be about to say 'one billion kilotons per gramme of fuel consumed' or something.

Fucking stargate wiki, giving me unreliable info.

Maybe the full thing is in the subtitles, or the script or something? No idea how to check those though, don't have access to the DVDs.

[NecronLord]

1. What the fuck is an Iconian portal, and what the fuck is a Jem'hadar?

You appear not to have watched DS9. A Jem'hadar is the clone-soldier of the Dominion. Famous for being drug-addicted lizards that believe the shape-shifting Founders are gods, and having actually cool rituals. They're made to be soliders and nothing else. The Dominion keep them loyal by ensuring total dependance on a narcotic/nutrient solution called Ketracel White. A little like the jaffa and their symbiotes, in that respect.

Iconian Portals are the ST equivalent of stargates. They have galactic range (Stargates of course, have intergalactic, with a ZPM, or universal, with an Icarus planet), but are substantially more impressive, because their exit point can be anywhere and they can be operated two way from one side. The Iconians were destroyed by their enemies, but a few of their portals, protected under neutronium-clad ziggurats, remain. They have rather complex controls, but can be used to target a space station on the other side of the galaxy and things of that nature - basically, they're what a stargate wants to be when it grows up.

In one DS9 episode, the station is raided by rebel Jem'hadar, who having found an Iconian portal, excecuted their handlers and declared themselves free, using the portal to raid Dominion facilities for more Ketracel White.

So, an iconian portal is massively more complex, yet a random group of soldiers managed to work it out. I imagine the Tal'Shiar et al could work out stargates pretty quick.

2. I didn't say they couldn't work it out, but it's only useful if they can work it out on a timescale fast enough for them to siege Earth before their military gets defeated. We know that SG nukes, if not beam weapons, are going to fucking instagib ST ships if they land a blow.

3. If it's the whole network and not just SGC / Tauri controlled worlds, then the Tauri also have help from the Tokra and the Free Jafa.

And the Free Jaffa were so helpful they've turned out to defend Earth how many times? I recall Ark of Truth, where they rushed their fleet out to make a stand. Or Enemy at the Gate Wait a minute.

This increases their access to starships, Naquadah and other resources. Can these factions yu mentioned take them all on before they get wiped? Don't forget that SG powers all have cloaking technology too, and are by no means dummies.

And only the Asgard and Anubis had the means to detect cloaked vessels.

The biggest disadvantage the SGC has is that other than Earth they don't have any other large population centers. They also don't have any major enemies at the moment, and may be complacent for that reason.

All they have to do is hold Earth.

If they were already AT Earth, they may as well just invade it instead, or drop some big ass bombs.

That was my plan. Grab people to torture for information, then poison Earth.

I don't think gating out to blow up the Alpha site is really the optimal tactic since the ships clearly have enough fuel for an intergalactic journey, and they can get more by calling in some favors on Alien worlds.

Assuming those Alien Worlds can be trusted not to just kill the crew and steal their asgard cores. Well, the Tok'ra probably can be trusted. The Free Jaffa... not so much.

Running out of big nukes is the only thing I can think of, and if all they need is naquadah it's the same as the fuel situation. Can Asgard cores generate bombs or something?

Unknown

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmm, ST vs. SG. Interesting

Well, obviously the Sg groups have the advantage of strategic reach and speed: 4 days to cover 3 million light years (The Siege, part 3) or, for Prometheus on her pre-Asgard hyperdrive with Naqada generators, 20 minutes to cover 50 light years (Prometheus Unbound)

They also have the Stargates, which is a big bonus. Whilst Necron_Lord is right that the Tal Shiar etc would be able to figure out the system, they have no reference for addresses. The system only worked for the Tau'ri once they found all the addresses on Abydos (Children of the Gods) or got given them by O'Neill's Ancinet super-brain, so they's have them but have no way to know what buttons to press on the DHD.

ST has numbers, which has a quality all it's own.

However, the SG ships seem to be more potent: Beam weapons that, in one possible future, one-shot a Hive Ship (The Last Man), nukes with enhanced warheads, beaming technology that appears to me to be better than Trek transporters (no need for a "Transporter room") and possibly more maneuverable. They certainly have better fighters, and make use of them. Shields too seem to be more powerful than Trek ones, especially post-Asgard upgrades. They can take initially take two hits from Ori weapons which one-shot Ha'taks, and later can take repeated bombardment by Ori weapons at point-blank range (Ark of Truth)

I think there would be a brutal slugging match of a battle in deep space, as per "Sacrifice of Angels", with the SG ships inflicting considerable losses, before retreating back to Earth, and then hammering the Trek ships with drones from Atlantis and Antarctica. Whether that is enough I am not sure of

[NecronLord]

They also have the Stargates, which is a big bonus. Whilst Necron_Lord is right that the Tal Shiar etc would be able to figure out the system, they have no reference for addresses. The system only worked for the Tau'ri once they found all the addresses on Abydos (Children of the Gods) or got given them by O'Neill's Ancinet super-brain, so they's have them but have no way to know what buttons to press on the DHD.

Well, this is presuming they recognise the symbols as constallations visible from the proximity of Earth. And given all the times in ST that they've used databases of symbols and such on board ships, I can't imagine the Tal'shiar'd have much trouble recognising the proportions of the more obvious ones (Orion etc) they're pretty well known human symbols.

However, the SG ships seem to be more potent: Beam weapons that, in one possible future, one-shot a Hive Ship (The Last Man), nukes with enhanced warheads, beaming technology that appears to me to be better than Trek transporters (no need for a "Transporter room") and possibly more maneuverable. They certainly have better fighters, and make use of them. Shields too seem to be more powerful than Trek ones, especially post-Asgard upgrades. They can take initially take two hits from Ori weapons which one-shot Ha'taks, and later can take repeated bombardment by Ori weapons at point-blank range (Ark of Truth)

Seem is the right word. Numbers are very rare for SG energy weapons.

[Michael Garrity]

Ray245:

I believe the Mk-9 'Gate Buster' used in one of the episodes in the conflict with the Ori had a yield of 1,500 megatons; this would give it nearly 30 times the yield of the Tsar Bomba.

Mike Garrity

[NecronLord]

Far more, in fact, going by the visuals.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Necron_Lord, you miss my point.

Whilst they could very wel work out the symbols, they have no idea what order to enter them in, and given the number of permutations that are possible as addresses, random dialing would be a fruitless endeavour (They say somewhere in the series that even the addresses from Abydos dont work because of stellar drift, so thats another hurdle to overcome)

Anyway, my point is that it would be like a person whose never seen a computer before trying to send an email. They recognise the symbols on the keyboard fine, but they have no idea what sequence to use!

[NecronLord]

Necron_Lord, you miss my point.

Whilst they could very wel work out the symbols, they have no idea what order to enter them in, and given the number of permutations that are possible as addresses, random dialing would be a fruitless endeavour (They say somewhere in the series that even the addresses from Abydos dont work because of stellar drift, so thats another hurdle to overcome)

Anyway, my point is that it would be like a person whose never seen a computer before trying to send an email. They recognise the symbols on the keyboard fine, but they have no idea what sequence to use!

Chevron positions are canonically decipherable once you know the star position, even with no experience, as per episode #2 of SG1. They only need to go 'oh, Earth' fly there and enact the plan.

[adam_grif]

Chevron positions are canonically decipherable once you know the star position, even with no experience, as per episode #2 of SG1. They only need to go 'oh, Earth' fly there and enact the plan.

How did they work out where and what Earth was again?

[NecronLord]

Chevron positions are canonically decipherable once you know the star position, even with no experience, as per episode #2 of SG1. They only need to go 'oh, Earth' fly there and enact the plan.

How did they work out where and what Earth was again?

Umm. They're Romulans. They know where it is in their home universe, they therefore know where it is in this one.

[adam_grif]

So what's happened to the UFP? Have they just stopped existing? They can't both be Earth based. In fact, since both Galaxies are thoroughly inhabited, it doesn't really make sense that one galaxy can be both ST and SG at the same time. We should probably construct a more specific scenario. Maybe they discover the Alternate Reality drive schematics on the Asgard core, or there's a wormhole connecting the two realities at a specific point.

As far as detecting cloaks, if the Asgard have that ability, don't the Tau'ri now have that ability too, if they bother looking it up and installing it on their vessels?

Also, since Star Trek exists in SG-1 the same way it does in real life, does that mean that the Tau'ri thus have intimate knowledge of the Trek powers, at least to the exact same degree that we do?

[Eternal_Freedom]

OOO hadn't thought of that adam_griff

O'Neill certainly references it enough "Sir, we cant call [the X-303] the Enterprise" and so on

The above posts are right, we need a more distinct scenario to work from, rather than a vague Tau'ri vs idea

[NecronLord]

So what's happened to the UFP? Have they just stopped existing? They can't both be Earth based. In fact, since both Galaxies are thoroughly inhabited, it doesn't really make sense that one galaxy can be both ST and SG at the same time. We should probably construct a more specific scenario. Maybe they discover the Alternate Reality drive schematics on the Asgard core, or there's a wormhole connecting the two realities at a specific point.

Generally, Vs scenarios presume a wormhole sitting in space, or multiple wormholes.

As far as detecting cloaks, if the Asgard have that ability, don't the Tau'ri now have that ability too, if they bother looking it up and installing it on their vessels?

Not until they're shown to use it. The Tau'ri have nothing like an O'Neill class, nor do they shown an ability to make personal cloaks, hand-held intergalactic dialling devices or raise the dead. The Asgard (alternate universe in that last case) have done these things.

Just having the knowledge doesn't matter so much, if you don't know you have that ability, or the training to use it. The asgard core surely contains information on how to build an O'Neill class, but the Tau'ri do not have the industry or educated workforce to do so.

Also, since Star Trek exists in SG-1 the same way it does in real life, does that mean that the Tau'ri thus have intimate knowledge of the Trek powers, at least to the exact same degree that we do?

I would assume so, yes.

Certainly how I did it in my SG/ST fanfic back in the day. I blamed Roddenberry actually being a Federation idealogue/historian who'd had an 'accident' with the Guardian of Forever. Not that this was ever explicitly mentioned in the story.

[Themightytom]

Certainly how I did it in my SG/ST fanfic back in the day. I blamed Roddenberry actually being a Federation idealogue/historian who'd had an 'accident' with the Guardian of Forever. Not that this was ever explicitly mentioned in the story.

And a magnificent story it was by the way.

The SGC has more ships now, last count was the Daedalous the odyssey the Tsun Tzu the Apollo and the general Hammond. Also they would likely launch Atlantis in the event of an incoming fleet.

Holding the planet hostage may not work out so well. if the romulans declare their intent to gas the planet or whatever the SGC could just pop it out of phase and start hacking away at an enemy fleet. There is also a moon base, whose capabilities we have no real description of.

In terms of firepower, the beam weapons have to be at least potent as the nukes, no one has even bothered to TRY nuking an Ori ship, they beam, weaponed them.

You can't really troll the SGC for hostages as it has a jamer that prevents asgards beaming in an out. if you propose that the asgard transporters work differently than the Trek transporters, than to be fair you'd have to assume both parties can beam in and out, in favor of SGC actually, as their transporters are far less finicky. A trekporter may not even be able to beam through that much rock.

[Batman]

The SGC has more ships now, last count was the Daedalous the odyssey the Tsun Tzu the Apollo and the general Hammond. Also they would likely launch Atlantis in the event of an incoming fleet.

Um-they barely managed to safely LAND Atlantis due to a lack of power if memory serves. What makes you think they have the means to LAUNCH it again? And why would they even BOTHER given that its main contribution to defending Earth would be the drones which can be launched just fine from Atlantis' current location?

Holding the planet hostage may not work out so well. if the romulans declare their intent to gas the planet or whatever the SGC could just pop it out of phase

Um-ALTERNATE UNIVERSE SGC managed to do that under circumstances that NEVER happened in the main SG universe. NO, the standard SGC can NOT do that.

In terms of firepower, the beam weapons have to be at least potent as the nukes, no one has even bothered to TRY nuking an Ori ship, they beam, weaponed them.

No they do NOT. ALL that means is that the beam weapons work while nukes (presumably) do NOT. That does NOT mean the beam weapons are more powerful, merely that they can SOMEHOW get through Ori defenses. That doesn't necessarily mean they do so via brute force.

You can't really troll the SGC for hostages as it has a jamer that prevents asgards beaming in an out. if you propose that the asgard transporters work differently than the Trek transporters,

Um-we know for a fact that they do. Asgard transportation is easily visible and moves considerably below c. Trek transportation speed seems to be mainly defined by dematerialisation/rematerialisation time (though admittedly given the range limits of Trek transportation the ACTUAL transportation would probably get lost in that anyway even if it were just as slow).

than to be fair you'd have to assume both parties can beam in and out, in favor of SGC actually, as their transporters are far less finicky. A trekporter may not even be able to beam through that much rock.

Despite the fact that we have REPEATEDLY seen them do so. Trek transporters have a problem with beaming through unobtanium of the week rocks. Away teams are routinely dropped into underground locations.

[Themightytom]

Um-they barely managed to safely LAND Atlantis due to a lack of power if memory serves. What makes you think they have the means to LAUNCH it again?

Well since Necron lord answered that question already in this thread I'll point out that the reason there was a "lack of power" was because they were focusing on the wraith and not keeping the city in the air.
LITERALLY. They commented that the kinetic impact of the bombardment was knocking them int the atmosphere and rather than correct their orbit they just kept firing on the wraith. Sheppard acknowledged at the end that they still have the ZPM's. There's no reason to assume they can't take off again.

And why would they even BOTHER given that its main contribution to defending Earth would be the drones which can be launched just fine from Atlantis' current location?

...
Because they can attack a fleet BEYOND firing range pf earth instead of waiting for them to get there?

No they do NOT. ALL that means is that the beam weapons work while nukes (presumably) do NOT. That does NOT mean the beam weapons are more powerful, merely that they can SOMEHOW get through Ori defenses. That doesn't necessarily mean they do so via brute force.

You're mileage may vary on that one. I proposed a while back that the asgard beam weapons may not be that powerful, achieving their effect through finesse rather than force. I don't recall any instance of the beam being used on anything other than a ship. However, the point remains that if using a hundred gigaton nuke is pointless against Ori Shields and yet three strikes from an asgard beam destroys the ship, the beams lower limit is that they are capable of ripping apart a large spaceship, and they are effective enough to bypass shielding that can absorb or deflect huge amounts of energy compared to what trek throws around.

Um-we know for a fact that they do. Asgard transportation is easily visible and moves considerably below c. Trek transportation speed seems to be mainly defined by dematerialisation/rematerialisation time (though admittedly given the range limits of Trek transportation the ACTUAL transportation would probably get lost in that anyway even if it were just as slow).

We DON'T always see the visible and slow transportation effect actually and it would be REALLY hard to explain if it were constantly present, given that they are constatnly beaming people to and fro. The nabbed Eli from his house in broad daylight, nobody noticed a huge pulse of light? And if we don't ahve the pulse of light the "below c" isn't a given. I vaguely recall someone speaking on a screen to a person which was beamed up mid sentence and appeared instantly beside them, I'll check my episodes when I get a chance.

Despite the fact that we have REPEATEDLY seen them do so. Trek transporters have a problem with beaming through unobtanium of the week rocks. Away teams are routinely dropped into underground locations.

It changes with the episode. Cheyenne mountain is hundreds of tons of rock as well as building materials. Thats why I said "may" not.

[adam_grif]

Can the PEOPLE in this thread use ITALICS instead of ALL CAPS for emphasis please. It is fine intermittently for something you're REALLY TRYING TO HAMMER HOME but when THIRTY PERCENT of the words in your sentences are ALL CAPS it becomes DISTRACTING.

and they are effective enough to bypass shielding that can absorb or deflect huge amounts of energy compared to what trek throws around.

Although I do think that Asgard beam weapons are very powerful, "ignoring shields" doesn't necessarily have any relationship with being very powerful. They could just be hitting, say, a naquadah generator, which creates a large secondary explosion. Naquadah is notoriously unstable after all.

[NecronLord]

And a magnificent story it was by the way.

Thanks!

The SGC has more ships now, last count was the Daedalous the odyssey the Tsun Tzu the Apollo and the general Hammond. Also they would likely launch Atlantis in the event of an incoming fleet.

Actually, Atlantis is probably stronger on the sea than it is in space. If it wasn't, the Lanteans would surely have launched it during the seige. As it is, the sea doubles as a gigantic heatsink for the city.

Holding the planet hostage may not work out so well. if the romulans declare their intent to gas the planet or whatever the SGC could just pop it out of phase and start hacking away at an enemy fleet. There is also a moon base, whose capabilities we have no real description of.

Are we sure that's not Icarus?

In terms of firepower, the beam weapons have to be at least potent as the nukes, no one has even bothered to TRY nuking an Ori ship, they beam, weaponed them.

We've rarely seen the SGC successfully deploy nuclear weapons against an enemy vessel. Let alone an Ori one.

You can't really troll the SGC for hostages as it has a jamer that prevents asgards beaming in an out. if you propose that the asgard transporters work differently than the Trek transporters, than to be fair you'd have to assume both parties can beam in and out, in favor of SGC actually, as their transporters are far less finicky. A trekporter may not even be able to beam through that much rock.

Less finnicky indeed. Conversely, certain Trek powers, though not the Romulans, have managed multi-light-year beaming (The Dominion, Ferengi and Federation in the new film universe have done this) Asgard beams can't do that. Transporters have gone through up to two kilometers of ground on some occasions (TNG Future Imperfect) but two kilometers of solid granite blocks them; it may be a limitation of density.

In any case, I said get them as they're in their cars, going home after a long day. The SGC canonically does not block asgard transporters in its operatives' homes (Chimera).

[Themightytom]

Actually, Atlantis is probably stronger on the sea than it is in space. If it wasn't, the Lanteans would surely have launched it during the seige. As it is, the sea doubles as a gigantic heatsink for the city.

With the speed factor couldn't they do both? intercept trek ships beyond Earth's solar system and then fall back to land in the ocean?

Are we sure that's not Icarus?

I...guess we aren't, but Icarus seemed to have an atmosphere so it certainly wasn't Earth's moon which seemed to be the context from Stargate continuom. That being said it is entirely possible it is a moon base given that Carter is very particular about calling a moon a moon, and we HAVE seen a moon with an atmosphere.

We've rarely seen the SGC successfully deploy nuclear weapons against an enemy vessel. Let alone an Ori one.

Fair enough. It was a weak assertion anyway.

Less finnicky indeed. Conversely, certain Trek powers, though not the Romulans, have managed multi-light-year beaming (The Dominion, Ferengi and Federation in the new film universe have done this) Asgard beams can't do that. Transporters have gone through up to two kilometers of ground on some occasions (TNG Future Imperfect) but two kilometers of solid granite blocks them; it may be a limitation of density.

In any case, I said get them as they're in their cars, going home after a long day. The SGC canonically does not block asgard transporters in its operatives' homes (Chimera).

Point conceded about the homes, but once the SGC starts to notice people disappearing they could just keep personnel on base (or shielded in Atlantis) until they figure out whats going on. The SGC isn't just a mountain, its a bunker. Add to that interference by the asgard jammers, anything coming off the wormhole itself, which generated an EM field in the bug episode, and the possibility that exotic alloys like trinium may be reinforcing the base as well, there's plenty of complexity in a beam out, though it might not necessarily be insurmountable.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Necron_Lord, could you please post a link to your story here? I would very much like to read it.

I concede that the Asgard weapons are probably not as powerful as the high-end nukes the SGC chucked around in later seasons. However, thei combat effectiveness, which is perhaps more important, was higher than the nukes.

Also, I have noticed the combat power of Tau'ri ships changes drastically from episode to episode.

For example, in Atlantis we see Daedalus and Apollo chatge into a fleet of Aurora class warships (admittedly with support) with 2:1 odds and inflicted substantial losses to only ONE lost traveller ship.

Conversely, the George/General Hammond (Still not clear on the anem of that one) was forced to retreat by three Ha'taks in "Air, part 1". It is possible they where taken by surprise and took damage, but we didnt see Hammond firing off any beam weapons then sadly.

It seems to me that the Tau'ri ships are as powerful as the writers need them to be for dramatic effect in the scene

[NecronLord]

Necron_Lord, could you please post a link to your story here? I would very much like to read it.

The Undiscovered Galaxy

One day, I should actually write the sequel Age of Fire, for which I have the plan, but I have a horrible habit of starting fanfics and never finishing them. The quality is, I think, quite dated now, and initially takes place at the beginning of The Seige Part III.

I concede that the Asgard weapons are probably not as powerful as the high-end nukes the SGC chucked around in later seasons. However, thei combat effectiveness, which is perhaps more important, was higher than the nukes.

Also, I have noticed the combat power of Tau'ri ships changes drastically from episode to episode.

For example, in Atlantis we see Daedalus and Apollo chatge into a fleet of Aurora class warships (admittedly with support) with 2:1 odds and inflicted substantial losses to only ONE lost traveller ship.

Also a wraith hive ship appears to have died, presumably the one the Asurans actually got their fingers out and shot with drones in the background.

Conversely, the George/General Hammond (Still not clear on the anem of that one) was forced to retreat by three Ha'taks in "Air, part 1". It is possible they where taken by surprise and took damage, but we didnt see Hammond firing off any beam weapons then sadly.

It seems to me that the Tau'ri ships are as powerful as the writers need them to be for dramatic effect in the scene

Actually, no. Joe Mallozi has stated that the problem there is people assuming the enemies' technology is at a standstill too. Those Ha'taks were meant to be far more powerful than any seen before. Part of the next half of Universe's first season is going to be spent on unravelling what's going on there.

For all we know at present, it's the Free Jaffa nation, or the Tok'ra in them, and their Ha'taks now carry Asgard Cores too. After all, why would the Asgard give their entire legacy to only one of several peoples, especially one like the Tau'ri, whose doomsday clock forever reads 11:59:59?

Not that I'm saying it is, but it's very easy to invent a reason why those Ha'taks were so powerful. The writers probably have something in mind, we've just not seen it yet.

[adam_grif]

Actually, no. Joe Mallozi has stated that the problem there is people assuming the enemies' technology is at a standstill too. Those Ha'taks were meant to be far more powerful than any seen before. Part of the next half of Universe's first season is going to be spent on unravelling what's going on there.

Gawd, somebody send the man an E-mail asking for him to include some scenes we can calc the energy weapons from, or get someone to state their yield in a scene. GT/second would be nice

After all, why would the Asgard give their entire legacy to only one of several peoples, especially one like the Tau'ri, whose doomsday clock forever reads 11:59:59?

They only gave it to SGC because they personally helped the Asgard an awful lot (and by "helped" I mean "was forcibly beamed up and put in danger until the problem went away"). That humans had "earned their trust" was why they got all the tech.

Not that I'm saying it is, but it's very easy to invent a reason why those Ha'taks were so powerful. The writers probably have something in mind, we've just not seen it yet.

Well obviously they're trying to mitigate the incredible stupidity that was giving SGC the super-turbo-doom-rays and uber shields.

[NecronLord]

They only gave it to SGC because they personally helped the Asgard an awful lot (and by "helped" I mean "was forcibly beamed up and put in danger until the problem went away"). That humans had "earned their trust" was why they got all the tech.

All such missions included Teal'c.

[adam_grif]

All such missions included Teal'c.

1/4 of the personell. Therefore we can conclude that they gave 1/4 of their tech to the Free Jaffa and 3/4 to the Tau'ri!

But they gave it to the Tau'ri, and if they gave it to anybody else, they sure managed not to say anything about it or bring it up. Thor made a big deal out of them being "the fifth race", and it would have been extremely out of character for him to have just randomly given it out to all comers, given that they were worried not only about their legacy being lost, but also about it being plundered by people who they weren't able to trust it with.

P.S. I'm still shattered we never saw Furlings.