CmdrWilkens wrote:So basically if you jump from 50kt to 60kt then it would be 10 extra months of trials...but you would only be paying the 1/20th IBP load for those extra 10 months during the fitting out stages. This means that the cost of building these large ships is not drastically higher (at least for the initial builds) but does come with penalties designed to make more evolutionary leaps (or 2 or 3kt at a time). Moreover once you've built one monster of a given size then other ships in the same weight class would revert back to the standard time-frames.
You'd have to modify that to 55kt+ as the increased trial times, as we've already been allowing those at the current ruleset.
I don't know about reverting back when it's done, though. Bigger ships = more things can go wrong. And it serves to balance out a little better. Because as people continue with IBP improvement projects (granted those can be big drains in and of themselves) the "extra IBP price" hurts less and less. And Steve is right, that some "Supermax Battleship" taking the same time to build as some 25,000t ship is a bit odd.
Alas, we have to jury-rig ad hoc solutions to 55,000t+ ships, since we didn't scale it earlier and it's too late to do so now.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
I see no value in higher trial times and would like to point out that this does not seem to be supported by OTL examples, as the Montana example shows.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Curious. How much would it cost to convert Cavalry divisions into Infantry?
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Lonestar wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Ultimate Battlecruiser I'm looking at building.
I just spend half-an hour in springsharp trying to emulate it. It doesn't really work, at least not with those specifications. Unless you have no torpedo protection, no deck armor over the steering, a main belt that is only 6 feet high (on a freebord of 23 feet) etc.
So I suspect this is a cover project for something else. Maybe an Iowa class analogue, considering how close the displacements are?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Really? I got it to mostly match the given description (and used 1916 as the date) by shorting some of the turret armor, going with strengthened rather than additional bulkheads, and cutting the range about in half (I stuck with the given SHP rather than speed).
Incomparable, United Kingdom Battleship laid down 1916
Displacement:
41,669 t light; 43,394 t standard; 46,000 t normal; 48,085 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(1,006.17 ft / 1,000.00 ft) x 104.00 ft x (34.00 / 35.05 ft)
(306.68 m / 304.80 m) x 31.70 m x (10.36 / 10.68 m)
Armament:
6 - 20.00" / 508 mm 42.0 cal guns - 3,306.93lbs / 1,500.00kg shells, 70 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1916 Model
3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
<snip>
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 540.00 ft / 164.59 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
4.00" / 102 mm 650.00 ft / 198.12 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 104.00 ft / 31.70 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 4.00" / 102 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 160,254 shp / 119,550 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 13,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,690 tons
<snip>
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
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-Kingdom of Heaven
That ship is like made of paper with strapped on rocket engines and with strapped on huge guns......
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Thanas wrote:
So I suspect this is a cover project for something else. Maybe an Iowa class analogue, considering how close the displacements are?
Sir, I am shocked, yes, shocked at the accusation. Besides, the Centurions under construction are South Dakota(BB-49) analogues, with maybe a knot or two more speed.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
Honestly at this point I'm of two minds about the design issue.
A part of me considers this far too much trouble over one issue and wants to let it go. It's clear the system for naval development in this game is terribly flawed and needs overhauling, or more accurately, abstraction, but that would be far too difficult to effectively and fairly implement IMHO, so we'll stick with what we've got.
The other part of me is in favor of Wilkens' scheme to some extent (every three thousand tons over 60,000T standard and you add a quarter to trials time for the first units, in the fashion of 1-3,000T over is 1 quarter, 4-6 is 2 quarters, etc.) and to make it final.
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
Finally got my Construction Queue for 1926 in order, 1927 will follow soon. Sorry it took me so long. Oh and I also need to update my OOB with the new production.
Speaking of which I may have some extra aircraft to sell, if anyone is interested in buying.
Honestly at this point I'm of two minds about the design issue.
A part of me considers this far too much trouble over one issue and wants to let it go. It's clear the system for naval development in this game is terribly flawed and needs overhauling, or more accurately, abstraction, but that would be far too difficult to effectively and fairly implement IMHO, so we'll stick with what we've got.
The other part of me is in favor of Wilkens' scheme to some extent (every three thousand tons over 60,000T standard and you add a quarter to trials time for the first units, in the fashion of 1-3,000T over is 1 quarter, 4-6 is 2 quarters, etc.) and to make it final.
The flip side is that it may be worth it to let the game run for an IG year or two, eventually the IBP hit of constructing a couple of these monsters will slow things down. I mean putting the 220 IBPs in to my Majestuoso's really slowed down my development in other areas and it was 2 years to get it down and reasonable. In other words it may be worth looking in to some edits to the Naval build rule but since nobody has yet laid iron for a ship exceeding 55kt (to date I'm pretty sure the Majestuoso's are the largest afloat) it may also be preemptive over-reaction.
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
CmdrWilkens wrote:Really? I got it to mostly match the given description (and used 1916 as the date) by shorting some of the turret armor, going with strengthened rather than additional bulkheads, and cutting the range about in half (I stuck with the given SHP rather than speed).
Yeah, if you cut down the speed to 33 knots, it works. Less so if you try to get 35 knots.
CmdrWilkens wrote:In other words it may be worth looking in to some edits to the Naval build rule but since nobody has yet laid iron for a ship exceeding 55kt (to date I'm pretty sure the Majestuoso's are the largest afloat) it may also be preemptive over-reaction.
Well, the Scharnhorst and Imperator class will be launched in February or March and they got a 55kt displacement as well. And two 70kt contracts have been signed as well, mostly due to the few ships making up my fast wing.
Lonestar wrote:Sir, I am shocked, yes, shocked at the accusation. Besides, the Centurions under construction are South Dakota(BB-49) analogues, with maybe a knot or two more speed.
How many ships are you building, btw? 4 of those? I forgot about that.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
A quick question: Would anybody be disturbed if I change a few of my general infantry divisions to mountain brigades? The German/Austrian army had a few of those, but I forgot to include them in the Orbat.
I am asking because I am currently preparing an updated version of my Orbat.
Not that there are any enemies around who have mountains, but for the sake of realism I think I better waste a few infantry divisions on this (as those would be less effective in open terrain due to lack of heavy artillery attached to them).
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
CmdrWilkens wrote:Really? I got it to mostly match the given description (and used 1916 as the date) by shorting some of the turret armor, going with strengthened rather than additional bulkheads, and cutting the range about in half (I stuck with the given SHP rather than speed).
Yeah, if you cut down the speed to 33 knots, it works. Less so if you try to get 35 knots.
I went with the SHP in the original design which continues my guess that SS actually shaves down to actual rather than design speed (or otherwise avoids shape issues in terms of max speed). So yeah getting it up to 35 would be a bitch but bringing the year up to 1928 should help with a lot of issues. Anyway it was a fun experiment but I'm sticking with 18" as my biggest gun and probably trailing off after building a few big 12x 18" BBs...after which I'm gonna need to build some CVs.
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE
"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
As it is Q2's start next Saturday is my deadline for this, since in Q2 I intend to order the laying of two of four 1927-design ships, and if we have a cap or not will determine if I go for a 60,000T ship or a 64,500T one.
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
As it is Q2's start next Saturday is my deadline for this, since in Q2 I intend to order the laying of two of four 1927-design ships, and if we have a cap or not will determine if I go for a 60,000T ship or a 64,500T one.
Would you mind making up your mind? I listed 2 60,000T ship on my queue, but if you allow for 65000T, I'm going to lay another design instead!
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
As it is Q2's start next Saturday is my deadline for this, since in Q2 I intend to order the laying of two of four 1927-design ships, and if we have a cap or not will determine if I go for a 60,000T ship or a 64,500T one.
Would you mind making up your mind? I listed 2 60,000T ship on my queue, but if you allow for 65000T, I'm going to lay another design instead!
Fine. Everyone can lay up to 65,000T except Fingolfin, whom is restricted to 60,000T by moderatorial decree.
j/k
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
As it is Q2's start next Saturday is my deadline for this, since in Q2 I intend to order the laying of two of four 1927-design ships, and if we have a cap or not will determine if I go for a 60,000T ship or a 64,500T one.
No cap.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Damn, I've been away for too long, but I've had a lot on my plate lately. I've got a four day weekend though, so I'll take the chance to update my queue and orbat, weigh in on the latest happenings, and get my new capital ships laid down. At least the good thing about my stats limiting me to 50kt is I don't have to worry about the wranglings concerning the max tonnage cap .
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
Ma Deuce wrote:Damn, I've been away for too long, but I've had a lot on my plate lately. I've got a four day weekend though, so I'll take the chance to update my queue and orbat, weigh in on the latest happenings, and get my new capital ships laid down. At least the good thing about my stats limiting me to 50kt is I don't have to worry about the wranglings concerning the max tonnage cap .
Well, you could always expand your IBP base. It'd take four years though to add 100 IBPs and get to 4 and a 50+ size limit.....
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
Thanas wrote:
How many ships are you building, btw? 4 of those? I forgot about that.
Currently building two Centurions (SD Knockoffs) and two Mercury BCs(A whiff of Lexington BCs, except 30 kts with more armor, smaller secondary battery, etc.). When the slipways are cleared 2 Centurion-Bs will be laid down, as well as two Mercury-Bs. So the program calls for 4 Centurion BBs, and 4 Mercury BBs, with two of each under construction at a given time.
(in other words, in practice my battleline program is actually very sedate compared to some other nations... )
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
Steve wrote:Well, you could always expand your IBP base. It'd take four years though to add 100 IBPs and get to 4 and a 50+ size limit.....
I've been working under the assumption that I couldn't do that, since one of the prerequisites for starting with 4 industry was a 2 in population. Are you saying it's allowed for someone who starts with 1 population to build up to 4 industry after the game starts?
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist
"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke
"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
Build up your population instead with mass-farm innovations, childbirth incentives, terrifying government projects involving fertility drugs in the water supply and shadowy agencies committing crimes against man, nature and God with their cloning vats.
You can use the same IBPs to do it for a long-run change and explain short-term change as immigration.
Lots and lots of immigration.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
