Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

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Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Liberty »

This is a little bit old...
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81459
Dad links son's suicide to 'The God Delusion'
Says atheism-promoting book hidden under mattress, last page bookmarked

Posted: November 20, 2008
By Bob Unruh
© 2010 WorldNetDaily

Richard Dawkins
A New York man is linking the suicide of his 22-year-old son, a military veteran who had bright prospects in college, to the anti-Christian book "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins after a college professor challenged the son to read it.

"Three people told us he had taken a biology class and was doing well in it, but other students and the professor were really challenging my son, his faith. They didn't like him as a Republican, as a Christian, and as a conservative who believed in intelligent design," the grief-stricken father, Keith Kilgore, told WND about his son, Jesse.

"This professor either assigned him to read or challenged him to read a book, 'The God Delusion,' by Richard Dawkins," he said.

Jesse Kilgore committed suicide in October by walking into the woods near his New York home and shooting himself. Keith Kilgore said he was shocked because he believed his son was grounded in Christianity, had blogged against abortion and for family values, and boasted he'd been debating for years.

Discover how atheism and immorality are being cleverly sold to Americans in David Kupelian's controversial best seller, "The Marketing of Evil."

After Jesse's death, Keith Kilgore learned of the book assignment from two of his son's friends and a relative. He searched Jesse's room and found the book under the mattress with his son's bookmark on the last page.

A WND message seeking a comment from Dawkins or his publisher was not returned today.

The first inkling of a reason for the suicide came, Keith Kilgore told WND, when one of Jesse's friends came to visit after word of his son's death circulated.

"She was in tears [and said] he was very upset by this book," Keith Kilgore said. "'It just destroyed him,' were her words.

"Then another friend at the funeral told me the same thing," Keith Kilgore said. "This guy was his best friend, and about the only other Christian on campus.

"The third one was the last person that my son talked to an hour before [he died,]" Keith Kilgore told WND, referring to a member of his extended family whose name is not being revealed here.

That relative, who had struggled with his own faith and had returned to Christianity, wrote in a later e-mail that Jesse "started to tell me about his loss of faith in everything."

"He was pretty much an atheist, with no belief in the existence of God (in any form) or an afterlife or even in the concept of right or wrong," the relative wrote. "I remember him telling me that he thought that murder wasn't wrong per se, but he would never do it because of the social consequences - that was all there was - just social consequences.

"He mentioned the book he had been reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins and how it along with the science classes he had take[n] had eroded his faith. Jesse was always great about defending his beliefs, but somehow, the professors and the book had presented him information that he found to be irrefutable. He had not talked … about it because he was afraid of how you might react. ... and that he knew most of your defenses of Christianity because he himself used them often. Maybe he had used them against his professors and had the ideas shot down."

He then explained to Jesse his own personal journey of seeking "other explanations of God's existence" and told of his ultimate return.

"I told him it was my relationship with God, not my knowledge of Him that brought me back to my faith. No one convinced me with facts. ... it was a matter of the heart."

Keith Kilgore believes it was a biology class that raised questions for his son, and a biology professor at Jefferson Community College in Watertown, N.Y., where his son was attending, who suggested the book.

A school spokeswoman told WND that the "God Delusion" was not a part of the biology curriculum, and several of the professors she contacted said they had not even read the book. However, the spokeswoman was unable to contact all of the professors in the department and could not state that none of them had suggested the book to Jesse.

Local police also did not respond to WND inquiries about the investigation into the death.

"One of his friends, and his uncle (they did not know each other) both told me that Jesse called them hours before he took his life and that he had lost all hope because he was convinced that God did not exist, and this book was the cause," Keith Kilgore told WND.

Keith Kilgore, a retired military chaplain who has dealt with the various stages of grief and readily admits he's still in the "anger" stage over his son's death, said his son apparently had checked the "Delusion" out of the college library.

"I'm all for academic freedom," Keith Kilgore said. "What I do have a problem with is if there's going to be academic freedom, there has to be academic balance.

"They were undermining every moral and spiritual value for my [son]," he said. "They ought to be held accountable."

He suggested the moral is for Christians simply to abandon public schools wholly.

"Here's another thing," he continued. "If my son was a professing homosexual, and a professor challenged him to read [a book called] 'Preventing Homosexuality'… If my son was gay and [the book] made him feel bad, hopeless, and he killed himself, and that came out in the press, there would be an outcry.

"He would have been a victim of a hate crime and the professor would have been forced to undergo sensitivity training, and there may have even been a wrongful death lawsuit.

"But because he's a Christian, I don't even get a return telephone call," the father told WND.

He said he tried to verify the book assignment himself several times, without getting a response from the school.

Jesse Kilgore blogged on NetPotion and Newblog, and the writings that remained mostly addressed social ills and how anti-Christian many of the world's developments appeared to be.

He used the pen name JKrapture because, his father said, "He believed in the rapture, the evangelical concept of the Lord coming back."

On the Web, Jesse described himself as "conservative and mainly independent. I am a culture warrior and traditionalist. I have been debating since I was in 5th Grade, and never looked back. It is a habit I can't let go of."

One of Jesse's uncles, writing on the same website as Jesse, wrote: "While I knew he was having struggles with his faith, I had no idea that it ran that deep. … There are not enough words to describe how devastated I am at his loss. I know that some of you got to know him pretty well and (since I already started getting some questions about him) felt that you all should know that he is no longer with us."

From among the online community came these responses: "I am shocked and so sorry for your loss – our loss. My prayers are with you and all of your family at this difficult time," and "I AM at a loss of words.....I am sooooo sorry to hear your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family."

Keith Kilgore told WND he feels, by allowing his son to move into the atmosphere of a secular school, like "I put a toddler in the front of my car."

"My son is the Adam Walsh of the culture war. That's who my son is," he said, referring to the child abduction victim whose case was used to create a wide range of amber alert and other programs to protect children.

He said he has a wake-up call over the anti-Christian agenda of public education. And he has some goals.

"I want to hold schools accountable for what they're teaching our kids. This was malpractice," he said.

Dawkins, considered one of the world's most outspoken atheists, is a professor in the United Kingdom. He came to prominence in 1976 with his book "The Selfish Gene," promoting evolution.

In his "Delusion" treatise he claims that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that faith qualifies as a "delusion" – a fixed false belief.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by lazerus »

Highly questionable -- but even if it's true, that doesn't put the teacher or the God Delusion at any fault. If someone is so psychologically unstable that just reading a critique of their beliefs drives them to suicide, the problem clearly lies with them.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Serafina »

I see three possiblities here:

-The whole thing was not related to the book at all, and they are just shifting the blame.


-He actually lost his faith due to his surroundings (i doubt the book was the sole reason) and was unable to handle that because up to this point, his whole life surrounded about faith.
I certainly think that's possible - but if someone is so fanatic about anything that he can not live without it, something is seriously wrong with him in the first place. The blame would not be on the reasons why he lost his faith, but on those who indocrinated him in the first place.

-The suicide WAS related to faith - but he did not kill him due to his faith, but because his relatives/friends could not stand him as an atheist.
In that case, the family/friends would simply lie, but i would find that hardly suprising - denial can be a powerfull motivator.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

What a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Gee, couldn't his suicide have something to do with the fact that he is a military vet who probably did tours in Iraq with poor psychiatric care upon return? No. That could never possibly be the reason. Instead, blame it on the book that criticizes dangerous ideologies and affirms living life as if it is the only one you have.

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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Zixinus »

What a disgusting piece. If I had any doubts that the Right is delusional and cutting itself off from the world, this erases it. This is a propaganda piece: I wouldn't be surprised if half of this turned out to be not true.

The article reeks of one thing: how dare they expose a sheltered child to opinions and ideas contrary to his own! This is a very attack on our faith! Do not send your children to high education facilities, or they might be exposed to ideas different then their own!
"He was pretty much an atheist, with no belief in the existence of God (in any form) or an afterlife or even in the concept of right or wrong," the relative wrote. "I remember him telling me that he thought that murder wasn't wrong per se, but he would never do it because of the social consequences - that was all there was - just social consequences.
How strange. I am an atheist that is disgusted by Christianity but find the idea of murder repulsive.

But I wouldn't be surprised that in this caricature of atheism, this was just another lie.
"He mentioned the book he had been reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins and how it along with the science classes he had take[n] had eroded his faith. Jesse was always great about defending his beliefs, but somehow, the professors and the book had presented him information that he found to be irrefutable. He had not talked … about it because he was afraid of how you might react. ... and that he knew most of your defenses of Christianity because he himself used them often. Maybe he had used them against his professors and had the ideas shot down."
In other words, a professor argued with his student?

How dare the professor not only get fed up with his student telling bullshit intelligent design, but telling his student that his oft-repeated anti-evolution talk-points are nonsense!
[/sarcasm]
"He would have been a victim of a hate crime and the professor would have been forced to undergo sensitivity training, and there may have even been a wrongful death lawsuit.
The professor should be charged with a hate crime because... he challenged/assigned a intelligent design believer (in a biology course!) to read a book?

I am trying to think of this in other context. I am trying to imagine a Nazi-symphathetic professor to challange/assign reading history students a book about anti-semite propaganda. Or a book telling how jewish religion is hateful.

Here's the thing: the jew students reads it, is shocked or outraged. But somehow, I have trouble thinking that a jew student will take his life. At worst, I can imagine him renouncing his faith in jewish religion or even his ancestry.

Or, more likely, dutifully fulfilling the assignment, privately or even publicly noting all of the book's flaw and misinformation and moving on. Like someone who can handle differing opinions.

Really, if requiring to read a book was the worst in hate crime, we would be living in a gentler world.
"I'm all for academic freedom," Keith Kilgore said. "What I do have a problem with is if there's going to be academic freedom, there has to be academic balance.
Does he not understand that this is an oxymoron? You can't have freedom if you have something restraining that freedom.
"They were undermining every moral and spiritual value for my [son]," he said. "They ought to be held accountable."
For what? Exposing him to different ideas and information?
"I want to hold schools accountable for what they're teaching our kids. This was malpractice," he said.
How? How is educating him malpractice? Malpractice would be giving him a different grade than what he deserved, extorting him for money, demanding non-standard services for money. All the professor did, at worst, was require a intelligent design bullshitter to read a book.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Steel »

I like how somehow social consequences are apparently a worse reason for not doing something than 'you personally will be punished later by going to hell'.

'Social consequences' does not just have to inculde punishment by society, but also an understanding of the effects of your actions on society and others and a rational assessment of what you are doing.

On the other hand chrisitanity says things are bad just 'because' and don't do it or you personally will suffer. No actual mention of harm you cause to others and society etc
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Knife »

Indeed, my first thought reading was that as a returning vet, he was probably suffering from PTSD. You could go a bit further and say he was losing his faith after all the terrible things he saw, and reading the 'God Delusion' may have gotten through further destroying his faith. That said, becoming an atheist doesn't correlate with suicide, probably more to do with depression and other mental disorders related to PTSD.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Rye »

Being wingnut daily, there's no reason to accept any of it as being true or even remotely accurate. At this point based on my experience with that site, I would be surprised if the guy actually died.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by wolveraptor »

If this guy committed suicide after learning that Santa Claus wasn't real, the person to blame wouldn't be the professor who let him know of that blindingly obvious fact, it would be the assholes who ingrained the belief in him so strongly that its truth was the only thing that kept him going.

Honestly the idea of someone taking their own life after becoming an atheist is at odds with all the other propaganda that fundies believe about us. As sociopaths, we wouldn't be inclined to take our own lives, we'd be inclined to take others' lives.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Liberty »

"Then another friend at the funeral told me the same thing," Keith Kilgore said. "This guy was his best friend, and about the only other Christian on campus.
What the fuck?
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by sketerpot »

Considering the number of suicides and the number of people who read The God Delusion, and how eager people are to assume a connection between atheism and suicide, I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner.
Zixinus wrote:The article reeks of one thing: how dare they expose a sheltered child to opinions and ideas contrary to his own! This is a very attack on our faith! Do not send your children to high education facilities, or they might be exposed to ideas different then their own!
My (public) high school actually brought in a local fundamentalist preacher to warn everybody about the dangers of higher education.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Formless »

I agree, anyone who uses this as an example of why atheism is bad is guilty of cherry picking even if we were generous enough to trust the conclusions of an obviously biased father.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Flagg »

It's fucking World Net Daily. You might as well post an article from freerepublic.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Haruko »

There was a Christian fundie at my forum who spoke of this gay agenda as being linked with this wider conspiracy involving NAMBLA, and trying to get people to accept that pedophilia is a-ok.

So anyways, this article is from what some people like to call Wing Nut Daily (a source that said fundie loved to link to to back up his claims), and this article mentions the book The Marketing of Evil: How Radicals, Elitists, and Pseudo-Experts Sell Us Corruption Disguised As Freedom. I look at the editor's description, and I see this:
Likewise, most of us mistakenly believe the "abortion rights" and "gay rights" movements were spontaneous, grassroots uprisings of neglected or persecuted minorities wanting to breathe free. Few people realize America was actually "sold" on abortion thanks to an audacious public relations campaign that relied on fantastic lies and fabrications. Or that the "gay rights" movement—which transformed America's former view of homosexuals as self-destructive human beings into their current status as victims and cultural heroes—faithfully followed an in-depth, phased plan laid out by professional Harvard-trained marketers.
I think I understand that fundie more already (as far as a conspiratorial nut can be understood), and I'm interested in reading that book for more insight into the mindset of people like him. I assume this may be as enlightening as when I read all of C.S. Lewis' and Lee Strobel's books, and saw the bizarre justifications given for such things as Hell (e.g., you're just a shell of your former self anyway) and men being at the head of the household (e.g., bilateral negotiations only work when the man dominates; a woman's "ways" (not sure what he means, but best word I can think to describe what he says) makes her being the head impossible).

I hope I'm not too off topic. I was more interested in the source, the same source that "reported" on Obama's "real" birth certificate.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Stark »

The best part of the article is that the events it describes are thus:

'Boy is christian'
'Boy begins to doubt christianity due to arguments he is unable to refute'
'Boy cannot discuss this with parents due to hostility'
'Boy kills self'

It's actually a damning indictment of how kids that are different and feel they have nowhere to turn are hurt by inflexible or ignorant parents.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by mr friendly guy »

What happened to teach the controversy? :P Apparently its not ok when its something disputing our precious fairy tales.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Well maybe they should try to force the teachers to drink Hemlock for teaching children something different then their homeschooled propaganda, it worked for the Citizens of Athens when that guy Socratese was around ....
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Ilya Muromets »

Liberty wrote:
"Then another friend at the funeral told me the same thing," Keith Kilgore said. "This guy was his best friend, and about the only other Christian on campus.
What the fuck?
Not surprising, if you know fundie attitudes. Fundie Christians always work on a persecution complex, and are utterly convinced that they are among the very few true believers struggling against an increasingly corrupted society filled with corrupt nonbelievers or "luekwarm" pseudo-Christians out to hurt or corrupt them for their steadfast faith. :roll:

Of course the little turd would claim that his buddy was "about the only other Christian" on campus. By his fundie standards, everyone else likely wasn't seen as "Christian enough" by him.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by CJvR »

So we have a fundamentalist parent who brainwashes his kid for God.
Kid goes of to the brutally traumatizing thing called war/crusade.
Get back home and get into higher education where he learns that everything dad told him is BS... SNAP!!!

ps: I think you can read the heartless fanatisism between the lines of selfrighteousnes in that story, provided it is a factual rather than fictional event.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Themightytom »

Taking the article at face value, I can absolutely see the argument the father is trying to make, unfortunately I can also see why he's making it.

There is validity in the assertion that challenging or removing core schemas can be catastrophic to an individual's mental health, but only if they are in a vulnerable position. With even small amounts of resiliency people can accept significant alterations in their world view without tipping over into Anomie.

Based on the testimonials of the people who talked to Jesse I think it is likely that Jesse was probably motivated by his loss of faith to commit suicide, because it was a last grasp. He characterized himself as a debator, and he couldn't let go of the debate. Had he truly accepted an atheistic viewpoint, I would hope it would serve to reaffirm the value of living life, given that there is no alternative.

That being said, Jesse seemed to have some pretty weak social supports and lacked the resiliency that can help a person get through these kinds of paradigm shifts. by the nature of his faith, Jesse was probably accustomed to screening his social interactions to people of faith, and if there was only ONE person of acceptable faith on campus with him, he might as well have been a hermit. This is a problem I have seen in faith groups, they tend to encourage group loyalty for the purposes of providing mutual reassurance, but fail to consider the practicality of being able to get along with others. You can't paint every atheist in the world as an evil ambassador of immorality and then find one to confess your personal doubts with. They're doing it RIGHT in this article even.

Its definitely a tragedy, I have loads of sympathy for what the father is going through now, and what Jesse was going through then, but if reading a book could cause a person to commit suicide, than there would be no born-agains, or conversions because all those atheists and heathens reading the bible would conclude just as Jesse seems to have, that they were doing it wrong.

Debating philosophy and being a cultural warrior is all well and good but you have to know when to tap out.

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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by hunter5 »

Sounds like a grief stricken father looking for someone to blame and picking the easiest target. Similar to the parents that blame video games or violent TV for their children's actions.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Juubi Karakuchi »

hunter5 wrote:Sounds like a grief stricken father looking for someone to blame and picking the easiest target. Similar to the parents that blame video games or violent TV for their children's actions.
Or some Puerto-Rican guy. Or Dungeons and Dragons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Pulling).

Seriously though, i's a fairly common response. Speaking from what I know of grief, it's particularly insidious because it distracts the bereaved from dealing with their loss. From such soil, moral panics spring.
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by frogcurry »

He suggested the moral is for Christians simply to abandon public schools wholly.
This strikes me as possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard. What are they, ostriches? :banghead: Actually, don't answer that one...

The questioning of their religious beliefs might just have been the straw breaking the camels back on top of existing issues, allowing a breakthrough of existing depression problems. From my reading on the subject, my understanding is that most suicides are opportunisitic and occur in a <30 minute deep non-rational peak of depression. If they don't find a way to kill themselves in that time then they swing back into a somewhat better mood. Hence the depressed worker drones leaving the office and jumping under trains on the platform home, or the reason why you can't buy large amounts of painkillers in one place anymore (slows you down going to multiple shops to get a fatal dose level). The thing that killed this man in the end was his owning a gun not a book, and having the means to easily take his life while in this state.
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The Yosemite Bear
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Well that's been the long term Fundy plan from before I was born, create your own fundytopian home school network, and fundy colleges, and then try and challange, sue, and forceably alter the public school system to mirror your own view point. I remember them trying to get professors fired twenty years ago, for complaining about being pursecuted, because they would take a science or philosphy class, and totally ignore the course work, and present their preset view.

(actually had the same pack of baptist fundies in High School and College taking classes on comparitive religions just so that they could tell us that everything but their view of Christianity was WRONG.
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Red
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Re: Dad links son's suicide to "The God Delusion"

Post by Red »

"Here's another thing," he continued. "If my son was a professing homosexual, and a professor challenged him to read [a book called] 'Preventing Homosexuality'… If my son was gay and [the book] made him feel bad, hopeless, and he killed himself, and that came out in the press, there would be an outcry.

"He would have been a victim of a hate crime and the professor would have been forced to undergo sensitivity training, and there may have even been a wrongful death lawsuit.

"But because he's a Christian, I don't even get a return telephone call," the father told WND.
This caught my attention. Does anyone doubt the validity of this statement?

I can imagine an SDNet thread, "Dad links son's suicide to 'Preventing Homosexuality'", and then reading a two-page chain of posts decrying the Homophobic Fucktard Professors, and asking what the heck is wrong with this country where insensitive people like that are allowed to teach in public schools and universities.

One read-through of the Mississippi Prom thread (link) is sufficient to see this. Granted, the prom thread involves a board acting in an official position to kill an event, while in this hypothetical it's a professor acting on his own, out of a desire for one-on-one exchange of ideas. But only part of the rage in that thread is about abuse of power and separation of BackwardsBeliefs And State. The other part is outrage at the backwards beliefs themselves, and no doubt they'd also appear in this hypothetical.

So. With that said. Consider the two scenarios: one has a Christian shoot himself ostensibly(!) because of the Dawkins anti-religion book. The other has a gay student shoot himself because of the effects of reading an anti-homosexuality book. Should official reaction differ between these two scenarios? Should both scenario's professors be considered free from fault? Would this board be as willing to say of the gay student "if a book made him do that, he had issues anyway!"? Or is there a legitimate reason why one scenario should elicit a different reaction from the other?
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