How does the cycle work in nBSG ?

[Sarevok]

Since we seem to having some nBSG discussion I thought I would pose this question again. The central theme of nBSG mythology is the cycle of man and machine . Man creates robots, robot attacks man, then robot becomes human. This chain of events is supposedly unbreable. But why ?

Why is the ultimate highpoint of AI evolution human again ? Why would AIs and humans lose each time and start from scratch ? Why not one side winning permanently ? Or destroying everyone ?

[Themightytom]

mostly because they wrote it that way. The cylons could just as easily have ended the cycle by exterminating the last of the humans and aborting (literally) the human cylon project, especially after the civil war in which the human cylons turned on their creators, and essentially used them as cannon fodder in the same manner the colonials who created them originally did.

It really should have been one sided, with humans constantly tempted to create machines, and NOT vice versa. I have yet to see anything resembling an advantage the human cylons had over the mechanical ones other than the trite "Humans can be unpredictable and have free will" crap that has persisted since the original series. The Cavil model regularly laments being made a human.

[Sarevok]

It is pretty clear in the series the cycle happens to external intervention. My in universe explanation is that the angelic faction is responsible for sabotaging human technology. Each time humans develop spaceflight, ftl, AI etc they are set back to beginning. The angel faction while equipped with advanced hologram and psionic equipment is not kitted out for war. If their homeworld were found even a pathetic cylon basestar could destroy them. So is this any coincidence they would want to keep humans down and weak ?

[JGregory32]

It is pretty clear in the series the cycle happens to external intervention. My in universe explanation is that the angelic faction is responsible for sabotaging human technology. Each time humans develop spaceflight, ftl, AI etc they are set back to beginning. The angel faction while equipped with advanced hologram and psionic equipment is not kitted out for war. If their homeworld were found even a pathetic cylon basestar could destroy them. So is this any coincidence they would want to keep humans down and weak ?

So it's all the Vorlons fault?

[Anguirus]

It really should have been one sided, with humans constantly tempted to create machines, and NOT vice versa.

I thought that WAS it, in fact.

Out-of-universe, Cylons = humanlikes mostly because of production convenience and ability to have actors instead of CG playing characters (though the series obviously played with the idea a whole lot). It's not important to the cycle that the Cylons try to become more human, it's just another interesting theme of the show.

The cycle itself in my mind is a lot more like this: humans (or human-like machines...you could even imagine it happening with bright "Centurions") create an underclass of smart machines to serve them, but enslaving such capable robo-organisms invariably leads to their violent revolt. The two sides wage a war of extermination, and whatever survivors there are on both sides will be tempted to create and mistreat machines again, leading to more wars of extermination.

Running out of people would obviously break the cycle, but not in a very happy way. The goal of the "angels" was apparently to break the cycle in another way, with compassion and mutual dependence (though in a ruthless way; most of the original two factions are obliterated by the end of the series and the angels have no qualms with orchestrating deaths).

[aieeegrunt]

My take on this is that all of the Colonials are actually skinjob Cylons. Humanity has been extinct for centuries after creating self aware humanoid robots that rebelled. The robots are now caught in an endless programming loop recreating the original human robot war.

[Jade Owl]

I think that the purpose of the “angels” and the Entity-who-doesn’t-like-to-be-called-God is not so much to break the cycle as making sure that there are survivors so that it can happen again.

On the First Earth they appeared to the Final Five and gave them the warnings that insured their survival. And the Sacred Scrolls mention a “Lower Demon” that helped the people Kobol in their time of need. Their goal seems to be making sure humanity gets another chance every time they screw up.

By the way, I have the personal theory that there were other iterations of the cycle before Kobol.

[Havok]

This is my take on the cycle as far as time goes.

Basically there is no way that the time allotted between the cycles allows for them to logically take place. There is just too much that happens for anyone involved to forget it, especially with AI involved.

The cycle definitely has taken place many times, and it started long before Kobol. It does seem to have different variations though that aren't always a nuclear holocaust perpetrated by one side or the other.

The way it seems to work is that humans/organic cylons keep thinking that they can create a slave labor/military force that will advance their society with no repercussions. Now it doesn't always end in a big crazy genocide, like I pointed out in the link to the other thread, but it always ends in a schism between the two groups. The idea that this course of action is somehow hardwired into humans/organic cylons (if there is even a difference) has some merit since it was only 2000 years between cycle beginnings that we know of, and it seems, according to Head Six and Head Baltar, that even with a complete abandonment of technology and society, we, the current humans/organic cyclons, are headed down the same path after 150,000 years.

[sirocco]

This is my take on the cycle as far as time goes.

Basically there is no way that the time allotted between the cycles allows for them to logically take place. There is just too much that happens for anyone involved to forget it, especially with AI involved.

The cycle definitely has taken place many times, and it started long before Kobol. It does seem to have different variations though that aren't always a nuclear holocaust perpetrated by one side or the other.

The way it seems to work is that humans/organic cylons keep thinking that they can create a slave labor/military force that will advance their society with no repercussions. Now it doesn't always end in a big crazy genocide, like I pointed out in the link to the other thread, but it always ends in a schism between the two groups. The idea that this course of action is somehow hardwired into humans/organic cylons (if there is even a difference) has some merit since it was only 2000 years between cycle beginnings that we know of, and it seems, according to Head Six and Head Baltar, that even with a complete abandonment of technology and society, we, the current humans/organic cyclons, are headed down the same path after 150,000 years.

I believe it is due to human nature of compassion and empathy.

By making human-like robots, you try to build a relation between them and their owners. At some point in the future, someone's going to wonder if they can't be more human and try to upgrade their software. That would make those robots slowly achieve sentience. Eventually you will got a toaster with an attitude, a toaster that wonders if it can be more than a toaster, maybe even a toaster with a gun.

And then comes the rebellion. From what we saw on the show, it became a bloodbath on the 12 colonies and Earth 1. On Kobol, the thing was resolved quite peacefully, since the 13th cylon tribe left.

What I still don't understand is why the other 12 tribes left too. From what we saw, Kobol was still an habitable planet. And well even if the locals relied heavily on robots, it would have been easier for them to rebuild their civilization once the robots gone than make spacecrafts to leave for the 12 colonies.

1- WTF happened on Kobol? what were the 13 tribes running from?
2- Who were those Gods that weren't of the 13 tribes? Survivors from a precedent iteration of the cycle? or political leaders like Appolo-Adama?

[aieeegrunt]

When the Galactica arrived at Kobol, during the Presidential briefing that Billy dude said something along the lines of the planet seems to have suffered a catastrophe, but is habitable now. There are things other than nukes that could make a planet temporarily inhospitable I suppose. Disease, an asteroid hitting it, who knows?

[Havok]

I believe it is due to human nature of compassion and empathy.

By making human-like robots, you try to build a relation between them and their owners. At some point in the future, someone's going to wonder if they can't be more human and try to upgrade their software. That would make those robots slowly achieve sentience. Eventually you will got a toaster with an attitude, a toaster that wonders if it can be more than a toaster, maybe even a toaster with a gun.

Doubtful. If there is one thing that we have learned from our history is that social and cultural changes of this magnitude are rarely driven by compassion or empathy, but by greed and power.

And then comes the rebellion. From what we saw on the show, it became a bloodbath on the 12 colonies and Earth 1. On Kobol, the thing was resolved quite peacefully, since the 13th cylon tribe left.

What I still don't understand is why the other 12 tribes left too. From what we saw, Kobol was still an habitable planet. And well even if the locals relied heavily on robots, it would have been easier for them to rebuild their civilization once the robots gone than make spacecrafts to leave for the 12 colonies.


1- WTF happened on Kobol? what were the 13 tribes running from?

I have considered the possibility of an economic catastrophe. What if the entire labor and military force of an entire planet (Kobol Cylons) left? What would the remaining population do? That would be a monumental catastrophe to that civilization. Everything from power to agriculture breaking down possibly leading to the breakdown of society. You then have, possibly 12 factions, countries, alliances, etc. vying for control of whatever was remaining and they began waring amongst themselves as they tried to get their society back on track. Perhaps in the process they destroyed what was left and ultimately decided to leave, or had to leave and they struck out for these 12 new planets they knew of.

2- Who were those Gods that weren't of the 13 tribes? Survivors from a precedent iteration of the cycle? or political leaders like Appolo-Adama?

Probably just mythological creations.

[Gil Hamilton]

When the Galactica arrived at Kobol, during the Presidential briefing that Billy dude said something along the lines of the planet seems to have suffered a catastrophe, but is habitable now. There are things other than nukes that could make a planet temporarily inhospitable I suppose. Disease, an asteroid hitting it, who knows?

A real nuclear war would do it. nBSG never handled the effects of nuclear war well vis a vie Old Earth (it's uninhabitable, so ignore all the trees and grass and focus on the camera filter we are using).

On the whole, I don't think that we should try to rationalize the "cycles", because at the end of the day, nBSG isn't that consistent in order to make a history, shoring up all its problems with "Uh... God did it." Any problem you come up with? Miracle. The creators of the show really took the really lazy way out and it makes talking about the history of events pointless, because all of them are "God did stuff, possible with robots and nuclear devices."

[sirocco]

I believe it is due to human nature of compassion and empathy.

By making human-like robots, you try to build a relation between them and their owners. At some point in the future, someone's going to wonder if they can't be more human and try to upgrade their software. That would make those robots slowly achieve sentience. Eventually you will got a toaster with an attitude, a toaster that wonders if it can be more than a toaster, maybe even a toaster with a gun.

Doubtful. If there is one thing that we have learned from our history is that social and cultural changes of this magnitude are rarely driven by compassion or empathy, but by greed and power.

generally it's more a combination of both factors : social values are used to drive the masses while greed is the spark prior to uprising.

Also, I think that there's a human tendancy to personnification and curiosity. There will be some people trying to make things better and other following them. The idea come from a need for empathy toward a human-like figure. If its a good idea it will become a business and here's comes the greed.

[Uraniun235]

It really should have been one sided, with humans constantly tempted to create machines, and NOT vice versa.

I thought that WAS it, in fact.

Out-of-universe, Cylons = humanlikes mostly because of production convenience and ability to have actors instead of CG playing characters (though the series obviously played with the idea a whole lot). It's not important to the cycle that the Cylons try to become more human, it's just another interesting theme of the show.

Uh, what? Out of universe, the Cylons were in human form to serve a major part of the early-series premise; that they were among us and looked just like us and could not (yet) be detected, and that some of them were alqaeda sleeper cells unwitting agents that carried out acts of sabotage without even being aware of it. Even granted an unlimited CGI budget they would have still had people playing the Cylons.

[Anguirus]

^ This is absolutely true, but I'm sort of thinking about what the very first conversations about the show must have been like, i.e., how do we make this not a total cheesefest, and how do we make the Cylons interesting characters (an unlimited CGI budget could not have obviated this need in the slightest, even major motion pictures are just now making true CGI characters)? My guess is that the rest of it spun off from there. But I have no way of knowing, so you're absolutely right.

My point is that I think it has pretty much fuck-all to do with the "cycle."

[Junghalli]

The idea that this course of action is somehow hardwired into humans/organic cylons (if there is even a difference) has some merit since it was only 2000 years between cycle beginnings that we know of, and it seems, according to Head Six and Head Baltar, that even with a complete abandonment of technology and society, we, the current humans/organic cyclons, are headed down the same path after 150,000 years.

If the Cycle is somehow hardwired that might put the ending into a new light. The programming is somehow wired into the DNA, and the humans on Earth don't have it. The whole ending of the series was set up with the idea that the programming would be broken by getting the Colonials and Skinjobs to assimilate into the Earth human population, causing the programming to be destroyed by interbreeding with humans who didn't have it.

Although you have to wonder why "God" doesn't just undo the programming with genetic engineering ... unless maybe it doesn't understand how it works, which begs the question of who put it there.

[Sarevok]

Yeah. Who made this programming ? And why ?

[Havok]

It really should have been one sided, with humans constantly tempted to create machines, and NOT vice versa.

I thought that WAS it, in fact.

Nope. The Final Five are the remaining Cylons from Earth 1, from the original Cylons that left Kobol. They then proceeded to make mechanical Cylons after a measly 2000 years or so, who then proceeded to wipe them out in nuclear holocaust.

[Havok]

Yeah. Who made this programming ? And why ?

Who cares and why does it matter? Seriously, are you trying to answer 'why are we here' from fucking Battlestar Galactica?
Not every single fucking thing in a story has to be spelled out and explained.

[Havok]

The idea that this course of action is somehow hardwired into humans/organic cylons (if there is even a difference) has some merit since it was only 2000 years between cycle beginnings that we know of, and it seems, according to Head Six and Head Baltar, that even with a complete abandonment of technology and society, we, the current humans/organic cyclons, are headed down the same path after 150,000 years.

If the Cycle is somehow hardwired that might put the ending into a new light. The programming is somehow wired into the DNA, and the humans on Earth don't have it. The whole ending of the series was set up with the idea that the programming would be broken by getting the Colonials and Skinjobs to assimilate into the Earth human population, causing the programming to be destroyed by interbreeding with humans who didn't have it.

See this is the thing that is a trip. Only the native humans on Earth 2 are probably actual fully organic, humans. The 12 Colonies, the 13th Tribe/Earth 1 and probably even Kobol humans are just organic Cylons from a previous iteration of the cycle.

Although you have to wonder why "God" doesn't just undo the programming with genetic engineering ... unless maybe it doesn't understand how it works, which begs the question of who put it there.

Yeah, God isn't any kind of actual God obviously. Who Head Baltar and Six are probably referring to is just their leader and someone that doesn't want to undo the 'programming', if it exists, as it seems to take enjoyment out of watching the 'Cycle'.
As for the 'who', see my post above.

[Anguirus]

It really should have been one sided, with humans constantly tempted to create machines, and NOT vice versa.

I thought that WAS it, in fact.

Nope. The Final Five are the remaining Cylons from Earth 1, from the original Cylons that left Kobol. They then proceeded to make mechanical Cylons after a measly 2000 years or so, who then proceeded to wipe them out in nuclear holocaust.

...yeah, I know. What I'm questioning is your assertion that the desire of the 13th Tribe and the later Cylons to go from metal --> human has anything to do with the cycle of slavery. The 13th tribe could have been toasters who built other toasters to serve them and the cycle still works just fine. The only thing that's needed is the machine underclass, and the temptation to build one once you have the capability is clear.

[Vympel]

Events of Kobol could've used some more explanation. Its said it fits into the cycle but its not really clear how - the 13 Tribes of Kobol certainly didn't destroy themselves in a nuclear holocaust, and it appears they parted ways somewhat peacefully- why else would the original skinjob Cylons of Kobol leave markers to show the way to Earth for their fellow tribes?

[Sarevok]

The Kobolians probably had better defenses against angelic technology which prevented them from manipulated into destroying themselves same way.

[Anguirus]

Events of Kobol could've used some more explanation. Its said it fits into the cycle but its not really clear how - the 13 Tribes of Kobol certainly didn't destroy themselves in a nuclear holocaust, and it appears they parted ways somewhat peacefully- why else would the original skinjob Cylons of Kobol leave markers to show the way to Earth for their fellow tribes?

NON-CANON ALERT

In "The Final Five" comic series, the Kobolians invent resurrection but the host bodies aren't 100% up to snuff, i.e. can't reproduce. Those that choose to resurrect are "The Thirteenth Tribe" and despite winning some legal rights, they are targeted by religious fanatics for trifling with mortality and no longer being themselves quite "human."

IIRC no nukes flew but the fanatics eventually waged a fantastically bloody war of annihilation against the 13th which stopped only when they packed up and left.

Some weird/complicated stuff with angels then happens, but basically a stowaway human flies back to Kobol from the 13th tribe's fleet with the writings of Pythia and a message of peace.

[Sarevok]

I thought the final five comic was canon and the only official published nbsg material granted this status so far ?