Reapers and Collectors vs. UNSC

[Balrog]

Like hell he was just 'cautionary.' If you are effectively invincible to your enemy there's no reason to be like that. If he was as invulnerable as people claim, he could've just popped into Citadel space at any time and make a beeline straight for the tower, just like he did in the actual battle. Except now there wouldn't be a massive(ly useless) Turian fleet standing in his way, and no one would be expecting a giant Hand of Doom shooting lasers from its fingertips to appear out of nowhere. No chance to close the doors in time, and even if they stay open any warship attempting to engage him with their weapons might as well shoot spitballs at his barriers.

[Stargazer]

The key there is "No chance to close the doors in time." You have no proof of that. The evidence of Reapers being nigh unstoppable by the Citadel fleet, and only the destruction of Saren bringing down Sovereign's shields allowing the fleet to be a threat, is:

A. EDI says Reaper kinetic barriers are impervious to dreadnought fire. There were not even any dreadnoughts with the Alliance fleet, just cruisers.
B. When TIM tells Shepard of a weapon that brought down a Reaper, Shepard responds with skepticism that anything could bring down a Reaper through brute force, referencing how Sovereign was kicking the Citadel and Alliance fleets' asses. He wouldn't say this if it was the Alliance fleet responsible for bringing down Sovereign.
C. A weapon that leaves a large rift on a planet with a glancing hit "killed" a Reaper, but left the actual structure and other systems intact.
D. Shepard is regarded by many as being responsible for bringing down Sovereign, not just the fleet.
E. Immediately after Shepard destroys Saren, Sovereign's shields drop.

Your response to all this is- "But Sovereign had a fleet! Surely the fact that he brought along a few lackeys means that he needed them to win!", when there are alternate explanations for having them, as I explained. They were more part of a package deal along with the army than a necessity for Sovereign.

I'd like you to actually refute my points.

[DrStrangelove]

A. EDI says Reaper kinetic barriers are impervious to dreadnought fire. There were not even any dreadnoughts with the Alliance fleet, just cruisers.

Unless you have evidence that the computer was programmed by an omniscient, its knowledge is hardly infallible and its quite possible to misinterpret data

B. When TIM tells Shepard of a weapon that brought down a Reaper, Shepard responds with skepticism that anything could bring down a Reaper through brute force, referencing how Sovereign was kicking the Citadel and Alliance fleets' asses. He wouldn't say this if it was the Alliance fleet responsible for bringing down Sovereign.

Shepard is hardly in expert in any of the relevant fields of science needed to make a quantified statement about that.

C. A weapon that leaves a large rift on a planet with a glancing hit "killed" a Reaper, but left the actual structure and other systems intact.

Too many unknowns involved, did the projectile even hit the reaper,and how did a direct fire weapon make a trench thousands of kilometers long on a round planet with a glancing hit. Basically nothing quantifiable, for all we know only a megaton or two actually hit the reaper

D. Shepard is regarded by many as being responsible for bringing down Sovereign, not just the fleet.

And many regard Yoko Ono as being responsible for breaking up the Beatles, just because an opinion is held by many people doesn't makes it any truer if the pertinent facts aren't correct

E. Immediately after Shepard destroys Saren, Sovereign's shields drop.

Given how there's nothing specific mentioned in the switch between scenes, the shields dropping could have happened several minutes after the death of Saren

I'd like you to actually refute my points.

Just did

[Stargazer]

Unless you have evidence that the computer was programmed by an omniscient, its knowledge is hardly infallible and its quite possible to misinterpret data.

EDI was programmed with anti-Reaper algorithms designed from studying Sovereign's wreckage, has access to all of Cerberus' data regarding the Reapers, and also had access to the Normandy's sensors scanning the ship in question. I think she's in a reasonable position to make such a claim.

Shepard is hardly in expert in any of the relevant fields of science needed to make a quantified statement about that.

It's not a matter of science, it's a matter of knowing how events unfolded.

Too many unknowns involved, did the projectile even hit the reaper,and how did a direct fire weapon make a trench thousands of kilometers long on a round planet with a glancing hit. Basically nothing quantifiable, for all we know only a megaton or two actually hit the reaper

"Did the projectile even hit the Reaper"? Mind explaining why else the Reaper would be derelict?

And many regard Yoko Ono as being responsible for breaking up the Beatles, just because an opinion is held by many people doesn't makes it any truer if the pertinent facts aren't correct

If Paul and Ringo were to say, yes, Yoko Ono was responsible for the break up, that would prove it. You're right, it's not a matter of how many people say it; it's a matter of who says it.

Given how there's nothing specific mentioned in the switch between scenes, the shields dropping could have happened several minutes after the death of Saren

Have you played the ending of Mass Effect? Saren falls to the ground disintegrating, and then the camera immediately cuts to Sovereign falling off the Presidium tower outside with Joker saying "It's shields are down! Now's our chance!" Only an idiot would assume a gap of several minutes there.

Also, notice the dialogue. Joker says "It's shields are down! Now's our chance!", implying that they only had a chance at hurting Sovereign was with the shields down. Hackett replies "Hit it with everything we got", implying that they hadn't been doing so beforehand. More evidence that it was not the Fleet that brought down Sovereign's shields.

[DrStrangelove]

EDI was programmed with anti-Reaper algorithms designed from studying Sovereign's wreckage, has access to all of Cerberus' data regarding the Reapers, and also had access to the Normandy's sensors scanning the ship in question. I think she's in a reasonable position to make such a claim.

Still doesn't mean EDI is infallible. And given all the hard sci-fi limitations in mass effect doesn't even mean a reaper can take a megaton of energy. Like since we know ME ships are quite capable of overheating in combat, say a dreadnaught can only fire 5-10 times over a short period before the heat build-up kills the crew, since dreadnaughts are so rare in universe, they would be functionally immune to a dreadnaught, or to lesser fleets for a prolonged period of time.

It's not a matter of science, it's a matter of knowing how events unfolded.

Not really the attitude you want to be projecting here. No different than someone saying a RPG can/can't blow up a tank, unless you're an engineer your interpretation need be nothing more than a vague over generalization

"Did the projectile even hit the Reaper"? Mind explaining why else the Reaper would be derelict?

Presuming the weapon didn't just use magic the dirt and rocks that used to be in the trench would need to go somewhere. some would be vaporized the rest would be blown all over to include into space, reaper gets hit with rock, buggers off to die

If Paul and Ringo were to say, yes, Yoko Ono was responsible for the break up, that would prove it. You're right, it's not a matter of how many people say it; it's a matter of who says it.

Yup and last I checked Sovereign's ghost wasnt running around crying about Shepard killing him

Have you played the ending of Mass Effect? Saren falls to the ground disintegrating, and then the camera immediately cuts to Sovereign falling off the Presidium tower outside with Joker saying "It's shields are down! Now's our chance!" Only an idiot would assume a gap of several minutes there.

And for all we know, minutes passed in the time between the scene cut. It'd be like me claiming ME ship FTL is capable of Billions the speed of light because I can beat the game and travel between dozens of star clusters in less than 24 hours. Without anything to confirm it happened in real time doesnt mean it does. And it takes 10 seconds from the beginning of the cutscene until you even see sovereign the ship, and another 20 seconds after that before joker says the shields are down. I suppose sovereingn's avatar had to send a messenger back to the main body to tell itself it was dead, or the citadel is over 10 lightseconds long, so your argument is full of holes already since the reaction isnt instantaneous.

Also, notice the dialogue. Joker says "It's shields are down! Now's our chance!", implying that they only had a chance at hurting Sovereign was with the shields down. Hackett replies "Hit it with everything we got", implying that they hadn't been doing so beforehand. More evidence that it was not the Fleet that brought down Sovereign's shields.

1. Now's our chance isnt the same as, This is our only chance, which implies you are grasping at straws again.
2. Hackett's statement supports my theory they cant fire their weapons rapidly over prolonged periods of time without cooking themselves
3. Sovereign apparently had to blow up a few cruisers to buy some more time before shield failure since the battle with shepard was taking too long.
4. Weapons used on cruiser didnt display level of damage one would expect of a weapon capable of being used viably against teraton shields

[Balrog]

The key there is "No chance to close the doors in time." You have no proof of that.

Because obviously they keep the Citadel doors on a hair trigger just in case an Outside Context Problem ever shows up?

Look, we saw how slowly it took to close up the station in the final battle, it's not a freaking mouse trap. Add to that the delay in time between when Sovereign shows up and someone in the control room starts the process going. He has more than enough time to get from the relay to inside the station.

But no, let's go along with this asinine assumption. Impervious Sovereign shows up, but takes too much time dicking around and the station closes up. Oh my, whatever is he to do?

Well, he could sit at the relay, and thanks to his invincibility and laser-fingers smash any ship that tries to get through. Send the Geth out to go cause trouble on their own. Eventually the Citadel inhabitants begin to starve, after which Impervious Sovereign tells them to open up or else. And since no one wants to die and they don't know any better, they open up.

Game over, none of this silly mucking about with conduits and disposable puppets that end up killing you.

A. EDI says Reaper kinetic barriers are impervious to dreadnought fire. There were not even any dreadnoughts with the Alliance fleet, just cruisers.

One, where is it stated there were no dreadnoughts? Unless you can visually distinguish between Alliance dreadnoughts and cruisers.
Two, even so, they were will within range for Disruptor Torpedoes, which do IIRC have a similar punch, and for broadside guns which, while individually weaker, there are more of.
Three, that statement skirts dangerously close to a no limits fallacy; I guess that means that no amount of Dreadnoughts could ever bring down Sovereign's barriers?

B. When TIM tells Shepard of a weapon that brought down a Reaper, Shepard responds with skepticism that anything could bring down a Reaper through brute force, referencing how Sovereign was kicking the Citadel and Alliance fleets' asses. He wouldn't say this if it was the Alliance fleet responsible for bringing down Sovereign.

Or perhaps he's incredulous about the idea of a weapon killing a Reaper in a single shot, considering how much firepower it took to bring Sovereign down at the station?

C. A weapon that leaves a large rift on a planet with a glancing hit "killed" a Reaper, but left the actual structure and other systems intact.

The fact that the Normandy cored the ship in a single shot puts a limit on just how structurally sound a Reaper is, and just how much punishment it could've taken from the super-gun and still remain viable. Which can be explained by the Reaper in question, for example, being grazed by the shot instead of hit full-on, since we don't know how it was hit in the incident itself.

And funny how this gorge in the planet actually bends towards the end. I guess the people who shot it really got lucky with their calculations with their direction-changing shell. I'm sure erosion had nothing to do with its size, that was all the weapon's fault.

D. Shepard is regarded by many as being responsible for bringing down Sovereign, not just the fleet.

Yes, because he was responsible for tracking Saren down and everything else you did in the first game to uncover the plot, ergo he gets the credit. Because heroes get that kind of treatment.

E. Immediately after Shepard destroys Saren, Sovereign's shields drop.

Which is about as silly on its own as it is with the rest of your 'evidence.' I'm sure if this were a 9/11 conspiracy debate you come back with how silly I am to believe a "coincidence theory"

They were more part of a package deal along with the army than a necessity for Sovereign.

LOL, "Buy this Geth army and get a free fleet thrown in with your purchase!" Because obviously Impervious Sovereign couldn't find another use for the fleet, he just brought them along for shits and giggles.

[adam_grif]

Game over, none of this silly mucking about with conduits and disposable puppets that end up killing you.

Lawdy, even if he isn't immortal like this, the real plan should have been to get Saren to invite important council members on board the Reaper to show them this amazing new Prothean ship he just found. Then when they're all indoctrinated, he just lands on the Citadel, because Sovereign and the Citadel were made to go together, that's why Sov can land on the big tower.

Then he just walks into the council chambers and uploads the data file that allows the station to unlock.

Problem fucking solved, no conduit necessary, could have done the plan like 20 years before the events of mass effect without wasting all this time.

Which is about as silly on its own as it is with the rest of your 'evidence.' I'm sure if this were a 9/11 conspiracy debate you come back with how silly I am to believe a "coincidence theory"

Well that part of the argument is at least very likely. The shot certainly seems designed to make it look like that's what happened, and the shields dropping immediately after Saren died would be a huge coincidence. As stated previously, Harbinger gets stunned and can't possess someone else immediately after you kill a collector drone in 2, so it's definitely likely that this was why the shields dropped. This doesn't mean they're invincible of course, just that cruiser level firepower doesn't bring the barriers down.

[DrStrangelove]

Well that part of the argument is at least very likely. The shot certainly seems designed to make it look like that's what happened, and the shields dropping immediately after Saren died would be a huge coincidence. As stated previously, Harbinger gets stunned and can't possess someone else immediately after you kill a collector drone in 2, so it's definitely likely that this was why the shields dropped. This doesn't mean they're invincible of course, just that cruiser level firepower doesn't bring the barriers down.

So hypothetically you have a guy playing video games. I start shooting his game consoles with a gun. So he is stunned because some lunatic is shooting his game consoles but he just picks a different one and starts playing again. Except this one time I shot his Atari 2600 and he took off his clothes.


This is exactly what that argument sounds like. Sheer coincidence makes more sense.

[Balrog]

Lawdy, even if he isn't immortal like this, the real plan should have been to get Saren to invite important council members on board the Reaper to show them this amazing new Prothean ship he just found. Then when they're all indoctrinated, he just lands on the Citadel, because Sovereign and the Citadel were made to go together, that's why Sov can land on the big tower.

Then he just walks into the council chambers and uploads the data file that allows the station to unlock.

Problem fucking solved, no conduit necessary, could have done the plan like 20 years before the events of mass effect without wasting all this time.

Hell, not even that. All you need to do is delay the station from closing, so put a flunkie in there to cause trouble when Sovvie shows up (just make sure it isn't one whose death will screw you over ) or have them plant a bomb/computer virus/etc.

Well that part of the argument is at least very likely. The shot certainly seems designed to make it look like that's what happened, and the shields dropping immediately after Saren died would be a huge coincidence. As stated previously, Harbinger gets stunned and can't possess someone else immediately after you kill a collector drone in 2, so it's definitely likely that this was why the shields dropped. This doesn't mean they're invincible of course, just that cruiser level firepower doesn't bring the barriers down.

Do you literally stun this Harbinger when you kill one of his puppets, or is it more of just a delay between when he can mind-control someone? Because the latter can be explained as whatever mind-control system is used having a cooldown period between possessing someone.

[Stark]

Well if you buy that interpretation, having the guy they possess for basically no reason destroyed before they can 'leave' totally lowers their defences and results in their immediate death. Makes the whole 'posses guy' thing pretty fucking retarded.

If only Saren had a bomb inside him instead?

[adam_grif]

Do you literally stun this Harbinger when you kill one of his puppets, or is it more of just a delay between when he can mind-control someone? Because the latter can be explained as whatever mind-control system is used having a cooldown period between possessing someone.

No idea, but the whole "become glowy and have crackly skin and gain superpowers" thing happens with Saren, and it also happens with the Collector drones when Harbinger possesses them. Both Saren and the Collector drones are full of cybernetics that allow for this possession specifically, so they seem to be one and the same thing.

Well if you buy that interpretation, having the guy they possess for basically no reason destroyed before they can 'leave' totally lowers their defences and results in their immediate death. Makes the whole 'posses guy' thing pretty fucking retarded.

If only Saren had a bomb inside him instead?

Nothing about this makes sense. If this wasn't why the barriers spontaneously dropped, then we have to accept that a small fleet of cruisers and some fighters can take down a Reaper. We have stuff in ME2 about how the fighter wings took heavy casualties and were "totally ineffective" against the Reaper, and not even regular Dreadnoughts get damaged by Cruiser fire.

[Stark]

There were fighters?

Hopefully in ME2 the possession is at least used for something that couldn't have been replaced by a space-bomb. Sov's death was either a resutl of his massive overconfidence/stupidity or Reapers really just aren't that tough (they're obviously not physically that tough anyway since Sov got utterly raped in seconds once Saren died).

[adam_grif]

Yes, one of the audio news things was about the XX'th fighter wing taking 90% casualties in the battle of the citadel, but kept on trying despite being ineffective etc.

This makes sense since Cruisers have fighters on board.

Hopefully in ME2 the possession is at least used for something that couldn't have been replaced by a space-bomb.

Sovereign needed the data file uploaded onto the citadel, Shepard overwrote it with Vigil's file while Saren was "dead" before getting possessed by Sovereign. Presumably Sovereign's avatar would have uploaded something new after Shepard and Co. were dead.

[Stark]

If Saren had been a space bomb Shepard and co would have been instantly dead and then all the space full of Possession Hardware could have just walked over and done the whatever. Stupid bossfight nonsense.

Hell, they have ROBOTS.

[adam_grif]

There's no reason why they needed to send geth to attack Shepard in small, manageable waves instead of just grouping up around the Presidium, which is an obvious strong point and the most critical part of their plan. The number of Geth I gunned down getting there, they could have held off a week long siege if they'd sticked together.

[Stark]

Sov could have just hosed the outside of the tower with spaceguns; he has LOS to you all the time and if he can't kill you with near-misses he sucks as a robot overlord. We know he sucks as a robot overlord anyway, but honestly.

Did the Geth dropship even shoot at you? I think it just spawned guys. TERRIFYING.

In short the humans won because they wanted it more.

[Stargazer]

Still doesn't mean EDI is infallible. And given all the hard sci-fi limitations in mass effect doesn't even mean a reaper can take a megaton of energy. Like since we know ME ships are quite capable of overheating in combat, say a dreadnaught can only fire 5-10 times over a short period before the heat build-up kills the crew, since dreadnaughts are so rare in universe, they would be functionally immune to a dreadnaught, or to lesser fleets for a prolonged period of time.

The quote is not "functionally immune to dreadnought fire." The quote is "impervious to dreadnought fire." Meaning double-digit kiloton impacts do squat. And I like how you have no proof of your other assumptions, just appealing to Mass Effect being a somewhat consistent (though not necessarily scientifically accurate) sci-fi.

Not really the attitude you want to be projecting here. No different than someone saying a RPG can/can't blow up a tank, unless you're an engineer your interpretation need be nothing more than a vague over generalization

If the person saw a tank taking a ton of RPGs with no effect, then I'd say they are in a good position to say RPGs are relatively useless in that situation. That's the situation here- Shepard was in a position to observe Sovereign being unaffected by the fleet's bombardment, or to be told afterward that the bombardment was useless. It's not something he himself needs scientific qualifications to determine.

Presuming the weapon didn't just use magic the dirt and rocks that used to be in the trench would need to go somewhere. some would be vaporized the rest would be blown all over to include into space, reaper gets hit with rock, buggers off to die

The Reaper was in a whole other star system from the planet that got hit. It's highly unlikely that the weapon would blow debris off fast enough to hit the Reaper.

Yup and last I checked Sovereign's ghost wasnt running around crying about Shepard killing him

But the Council was.

And for all we know, minutes passed in the time between the scene cut. It'd be like me claiming ME ship FTL is capable of Billions the speed of light because I can beat the game and travel between dozens of star clusters in less than 24 hours. Without anything to confirm it happened in real time doesnt mean it does. And it takes 10 seconds from the beginning of the cutscene until you even see sovereign the ship, and another 20 seconds after that before joker says the shields are down. I suppose sovereingn's avatar had to send a messenger back to the main body to tell itself it was dead, or the citadel is over 10 lightseconds long, so your argument is full of holes already since the reaction isnt instantaneous.

You're really grasping at straws here. You have no proof. At all. Immediately when the cutscene goes to Sovereign, red electricity is running all over the ship. The simple explanation for Joker waiting ten (insignificant) seconds before saying "It's shields are down!" is that it took a few seconds to confirm that the shields are down. A reasonable reaction, if they aren't expecting their own weapons to take down the shields.

1. Now's our chance isnt the same as, This is our only chance, which implies you are grasping at straws again.
2. Hackett's statement supports my theory they cant fire their weapons rapidly over prolonged periods of time without cooking themselves
3. Sovereign apparently had to blow up a few cruisers to buy some more time before shield failure since the battle with shepard was taking too long.
4. Weapons used on cruiser didnt display level of damage one would expect of a weapon capable of being used viably against teraton shields

1. It implies that they hadn't had a chance before.
2. Really? Where's the logic behind this?
3. When you swat a mosquito, do you do it because it could kill or seriously harm you?
4. Good thing Sovereign's weapons aren't the ones in question, here.

Because obviously they keep the Citadel doors on a hair trigger just in case an Outside Context Problem ever shows up?

Actually, yes. When Sovereign jumps in through a mass relay, what's the first thing the commander of the Destiny Ascension orders? Close the Citadel. Which they can't, because Saren was already inside.

One, where is it stated there were no dreadnoughts? Unless you can visually distinguish between Alliance dreadnoughts and cruisers.

All the ships in the fleet are Alliance cruisers, identified by the ship model you get in Mass Effect 2.

Two, even so, they were will within range for Disruptor Torpedoes, which do IIRC have a similar punch, and for broadside guns which, while individually weaker, there are more of.

Your point?

Three, that statement skirts dangerously close to a no limits fallacy; I guess that means that no amount of Dreadnoughts could ever bring down Sovereign's barriers?

It means that double-digit kiloton fire is worthless against Reaper barriers, and triple-digit kiloton as well. Megaton-level fire does not fall under "dreadnought fire". And the Alliance only had six dreadnoughts at the time, so even if they had all of them at the battle it likely wouldn't make much of a difference.

Or perhaps he's incredulous about the idea of a weapon killing a Reaper in a single shot, considering how much firepower it took to bring Sovereign down at the station?

The Illusive Man never gave the idea that the weapon killed the Reaper in one shot. Only that it killed the Reaper, which is what Shepard found hard to believe.

The fact that the Normandy cored the ship in a single shot puts a limit on just how structurally sound a Reaper is, and just how much punishment it could've taken from the super-gun and still remain viable. Which can be explained by the Reaper in question, for example, being grazed by the shot instead of hit full-on, since we don't know how it was hit in the incident itself.

"Cored the ship in a single shot"- yeah, let's forget that the whole fleet was still firing on Sovereign. This whole sequence happened when the barriers were down. The barriers are likely what minimized the damage from the weapon.

And funny how this gorge in the planet actually bends towards the end. I guess the people who shot it really got lucky with their calculations with their direction-changing shell. I'm sure erosion had nothing to do with its size, that was all the weapon's fault.

As adam_grif said, the planet was actually modeled after the Valles Marineris on Mars. The fact that it curves is probably just an oversight on the developer's part.

Yes, because he was responsible for tracking Saren down and everything else you did in the first game to uncover the plot, ergo he gets the credit. Because heroes get that kind of treatment.

The Council made it pretty clear to him that they weren't giving him more credit than they thought he was due before the attack on the Citadel. If the fleet was solely responsible for destroying Sovereign, they would have gotten the credit.

Which is about as silly on its own as it is with the rest of your 'evidence.' I'm sure if this were a 9/11 conspiracy debate you come back with how silly I am to believe a "coincidence theory"

I miss the actual argument here.

LOL, "Buy this Geth army and get a free fleet thrown in with your purchase!" Because obviously Impervious Sovereign couldn't find another use for the fleet, he just brought them along for shits and giggles.

You don't have any problem questioning Sovereign's intelligence elsewhere.

If only Saren had a bomb inside him instead?

Right, let's blow up the control center needed to open up the Citadel! That'll speed along the Reaper invasion!

[Stark]

I wasn't aware all bombs capable of killing biologicals was also capable of destroying magic-tech control consoles that are no longer activated. All it had to do was buy time, so even a fucking gluebomb would have won the day for Sovereign.

PS the final fight takes place nowhere near the console, so he could have just said 'lol bye guys' and exploded, killing them all. I thought the Reapers were advanced? Why POSSIBLE use was resurrecting him as a mega-skeleton to get killed so Sov was destroyed? If it was THAT important maybe he should have had some redundancy in his plan he'd been planning for FIFTY THOUSAND YEARS.

[Stargazer]

You know, Saren did explode/cause explosions as he was resurrected, causing damage to nearby structures. Maybe this is in fact the bomb strategy you're talking about, one that failed? Any larger of an explosion could have badly damaged the control systems in the tower, which Shepard had already introduced the virus to that took control of the station away from Sovereign. The fight happened right under the control panel, and Shepard was still standing up there when Saren was resurrected. And if you have an idea for a bomb that would kill soldiers in potentially environmentally sealed suits without causing severe damage to the surroundings, I'd love to hear it.

And no, Sovereign wasn't planning for fifty thousand years. He only found out in the past couple decades that the Protheans had screwed with the Reaper MO of using the Keepers to open the Citadel.

[Stark]

Are you for real? Mega Reaper bombs cause light scorching at two feet? I'm TERRIFIED by the amazing power of the Reaper threat. Amusingly it really shows how he can deliver damage indirectly; good thing Saren never heard of 'mines'.

And no, a larger explosion wouldn't have damaged shit. Your guns don't damage shit, and they kill people fine. Do you even know what the Citadel structure is made of? PS no you don't.

And sorry, the superintelligent AI *ONLY* had a few decades to come up with his childishly retarded plan that involves 'being killed in two seconds because I possessed a dead guy for no reason'. He obviously simply didn't plan for Saren to be killed (he probably thought 9 geth soldiers would protect him, lol) because he didn't think you'd be able to follow him because he's retarded.

[Stargazer]

I like how you're pretending to be smart when your plan of a dumb bomb instead of an intelligent puppet seems less likely to succeed. A bomb has no assurance of killing its target. And I like how you propose since the walls withstand small arms fire they'd withstand this bomb you're proposing with 100% probability of killing Shepard.

Decades is still a bit of time, but it's nowhere near how you presented Sovereign to have had tens of thousands of years.

Also, yeah, Sovereign didn't expect Shepard to follow Saren; that's why Ilos was crawling with geth, the elevator got shut down, and there were plenty of geth and krogan between you and the top of the tower on the climb up, right?

EDIT: Didn't expect that little bit of formatting.

[Stark]

Uh, he's a megarobot slave, remember? His head could have been turned into a ubertech shaped charge he could aim DIRECTLY AT THE PEOPLE instead of moody devil red eyes. Ooops. Like I said, even a fucking glue attack would have won the fight without Sovereign being instantly killed.

Stop red-herring. Almost everyone who plays ME can come up with a better plan than Sov's 'tell Shep all about my plan then attack the Citadel and lose my escorts and not kill Shep and not really try to defend Saren and then possess him so his death kills me' plan even WITHOUT decades of literally nothing to do but think about it.

If Saren seriously expected Shep to be behind him, good thing the Geth didn't just plink him

I'd laugh if Sov could have just waited a few minutes to finish killing the Human fleet before resurrecting Saren; then even if he died there'd be nobody to blow him to shit while he was vulnerable. Given ME2 stuff this whole 'stunned after possession' thing has happened before so he should have known better.

[Stargazer]

"Ubertech shaped charge"? When you have to make up technology you don't know if a side has in order to propose a "better way" for them to do something, that pretty much means the way it was done was competent enough. Except that it failed, because it was against the hero.

That's where the problem lies. Ultimately, Sovereign was the the villain of a video game; he had to lose somehow. Not to mention glue is totally lame and would likely leave you criticizing the ending aesthetically rather than from a tactical standpoint.

I can call Palpatine an idiot for ignoring Vader while he looked back and forth from him to Luke. All villains need to make some kind of mistake or fall short in some respect in order for the hero to win. It's not a problem limited to Sovereign. It's not real life; don't expect it to be.

Now, Shinzon waiting hours before even talking to Picard? That's idiocy, inexcusable idiocy.

[adam_grif]

Speaking of ubertech shaped charges, the whole "thanix gun is molten metal sent at high speed thing" makes it almost certain that nuclear shaped charges would fucking obliterate vessels in the ME verse. Not only does it do the same gorram thing in terms of being almost a beam weapon, it's trivially easy to scale them up to megatonne range devices, and said devices are easily mountable on tiny frigates. Large vessels would be totally obsolete. Dreadnoughts are vulnerable to double digit KT fire.

Particle beam weapons appear to either ignore or not be greatly hindered by mass effect shielding, and I doubt a reaper could stand up to a Tsar bomba yield device converted into a shaped charge.

And wait, why don't they use lasers again? We get some vague muttering about ablative armor, then some statements to the effect of LASERS AREN'T GOOD WEAPONS, even though they fucking ignore shields. God, if they can get some nuclear bomb pumped lasers or something up, that'd be tops too.

[Stargazer]

Lasers have shorter range due to diffraction, and wear out faster. One ship may have lasers that can severely damage an enemy ship, but they'll be torn up by the enemy's mass accelerators before they get in range.