Stargate vs ???

[NecronLord]

1/4 of the personell. Therefore we can conclude that they gave 1/4 of their tech to the Free Jaffa and 3/4 to the Tau'ri!

But they gave it to the Tau'ri, and if they gave it to anybody else, they sure managed not to say anything about it or bring it up. Thor made a big deal out of them being "the fifth race", and it would have been extremely out of character for him to have just randomly given it out to all comers, given that they were worried not only about their legacy being lost, but also about it being plundered by people who they weren't able to trust it with.

Which is stupid. It took the Tau'ri just over a year before the Wraith captured one of thier shiny new ships. In most realities, you can expect that Ronon wasn't on board by sheer chance to disable the weapons, Todd destroyed the Aterro device from orbit, and then fed upon the crew and got access to the Asgard Core, and the Wraith are now dominating the Local Group and feeding where they will. (Hell, canonically, for all we know, Todd just had a duplicate core made, and is integrating it even now, and the Tau'ri are going to get ripped a new one by a hundred plasma beam toting neutrino-ion-reactor hive ships appearing over Earth any day now)

That's how safe it is with the Tau'ri. Asgard-enabled cullings.

The idea that something like that is safe with the Tau'ri is, well, dependant on character shields. Frankly, at least the Jaffa wouldn't regularly get their stuff captured by wraith and crap like that.

[adam_grif]

Which is stupid.

That it may be.

The idea that something like that is safe with the Tau'ri is, well, dependant on character shields. Frankly, at least the Jaffa wouldn't regularly get their stuff captured by wraith and crap like that.

Likewise, the Tau'ri getting their shit captured by the villains of the week is dependent on writers fiat. If we were just judging by this track record alone, then the galaxy would have been way better off without the humans ever getting the stargates working, because every time they fix one problem they manage to make three more appear.

As an aside, the whole "We Asgard are too dumb to think of such stupid plans, so we need the humans" thing was massively cringeworthy.

[NecronLord]

Likewise, the Tau'ri getting their shit captured by the villains of the week is dependent on writers fiat.

The Wraith are not villains of the week. We know the Wraith successfully boarded Lantean ships, the idea that a race thousands of years more advanced than humans are (on their own) would be able to take stuff off them isn't very far fetched at all.

[adam_grif]

I wasn't only referring to that instance. Remember when Vala managed to get a hold of the Prometheus? Or the time SGC was completely taken over by aliens?

Man, what the fuck happened to those aliens. They were advanced as fuck. Never seen again

[NecronLord]

I wasn't only referring to that instance. Remember when Vala managed to get a hold of the Prometheus? Or the time SGC was completely taken over by aliens?

Hey, Vala's not an alien of the week either.

Man, what the fuck happened to those aliens. They were advanced as fuck. Never seen again

Presumably they went to a different galaxy, upon finding that one unsuitable. They were cool.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing them in Universe at some stage.

[adam_grif]

Hey, Vala's not an alien of the week either.

Args, I didn't literally mean that they had to be one shot aliens, I just mean "whatever force decides to attack this week". There's always something, and the SGC gets something of theirs stolen, captured, or taken over like every other episode. How many times have there been Goa'ulds inside the SGC? The whole "Baal clones unleashed on Earth" thing isn't exactly singing praises to Earth's security.

[NecronLord]

Indeed. That's kind of my point. Betting on these guys keeping the Asgard's legacy intact indefinitely is folly.

[adam_grif]

Indeed. That's kind of my point. Betting on these guys keeping the Asgard's legacy intact indefinitely is folly.

Asgard's bad reasoning, not mine


Actually I can't remember if they said that or not, I'm just going by the plot summary on SG Wiki because I haven't watched the episode since 2007.

The damage from years of such experiments is so severe that they are unable to ascend. However, rather than allowing themselves to slowly die out and have their technology plundered, the Asgard people have decided to give their most sophisticated technology and their entire knowledge base to the Tau'ri, whom Thor finally calls the "fifth race", before they will commit an act of mass suicide.

[FedRebel]

Args, I didn't literally mean that they had to be one shot aliens, I just mean "whatever force decides to attack this week". There's always something, and the SGC gets something of theirs stolen, captured, or taken over like every other episode. How many times have there been Goa'ulds inside the SGC? The whole "Baal clones unleashed on Earth" thing isn't exactly singing praises to Earth's security.

Given the problems the Air Force has had over the past decade...don't view it as nonsensical stupidity, but as an "accurate" portrayal of the US Air Force

Really the stolen/captured bits are the writers trying to create motivation, drama, and suspense. The taken over bit is to save money (taking the trailer convoy down to the nearest available Canadian park costs money) and it's cheaper to just play with the SGC/Daedalus/Atlantis sets in order to stay on budget

[Themightytom]

All such missions included Teal'c.

1/4 of the personell. Therefore we can conclude that they gave 1/4 of their tech to the Free Jaffa and 3/4 to the Tau'ri!

But they gave it to the Tau'ri, and if they gave it to anybody else, they sure managed not to say anything about it or bring it up. Thor made a big deal out of them being "the fifth race", and it would have been extremely out of character for him to have just randomly given it out to all comers, given that they were worried not only about their legacy being lost, but also about it being plundered by people who they weren't able to trust it with.

P.S. I'm still shattered we never saw Furlings.

Additionally the SGC was by far the most effective force in destabilizing the Goa'uld, something the asgard wished to do but were otherwise occupied. I think the intent was to depict the Asgard entrusting the humans as their heirs because they were a force for "good" organizing alliances to overthrow tyrrany, and safeguarding the weaker races.

They probably didn't notice the SGC trying to hassle the indians, the unas, forcing their cultural imperatives on the Monguls, fucking over the Tollan to save themselves attempting genocide on the wraith opening up the pandora's box that was the ori etc.. They were pretty much occupied with dying as a race at that point

[NecronLord]

They probably didn't notice the SGC trying to hassle the indians, the unas, forcing their cultural imperatives on the Monguls,

They didn't do that. They came, they traded, they left. The change was a from an internal force. But the clan chief they were with was a reformer; he declared the reform, not the SGC. All they did was kill Shimakka.

Also, fuck you for making me remember Emancipation.

fucking over the Tollan to save themselves attempting genocide on the wraith opening up the pandora's box that was the ori etc..

Those last two ain't so bad.

Their treatment of the Asurans, on the other hand, was pretty contemptible at times.

[adam_grif]

Oh man, Asurans. They would have won the Wraith war if only the Lanteans had asked them to just build a fleet for them until they said stop, instead of vague "defeat the wraith" instructions that will inevitably come back to bite them in the ass due to the malevolent genie dramatic irony principle.

[Marcus Aurelius]

fucking over the Tollan to save themselves attempting genocide on the wraith opening up the pandora's box that was the ori etc..

Those last two ain't so bad.

What the SGC did with the Tollan was not that bad, but for fuck's sake the Tollan were a stupid one-trick race if there ever was one. I absolutely hated what the writers did with them. These guys were supposed to be descendants of humans but they were unbelievably retarded, which completely overflowed my suspension of disbelief buffers.

[Crazedwraith]

Their treatment of the Asurans, on the other hand, was pretty contemptible at times.

I always get a small sense of unreality when watching the opening of First Strike. When the supposed good guys pull of Skynet Tactics, you know some thing's wrong.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In fairness to the Tau'ri, "First Strike" was a badly named episode. The Asurans had already tried to wipe out atlantis in "Progeny" took over Atlantis and murdered the last Ancients in "The Return" (The appearance of for-real ancients was far too brief as well).

The attack and destruction of Asuras was done because the Asurans were trying to commit galactic genocide of humans. Technically I think that counts as self-defense

Perhaps "First strike" does not refer to the first strike of the war, but the humans first strike BACK

[NecronLord]

In fairness to the Tau'ri, "First Strike" was a badly named episode. The Asurans had already tried to wipe out atlantis in "Progeny" took over Atlantis and murdered the last Ancients in "The Return" (The appearance of for-real ancients was far too brief as well).

Murdered? Executed. Those Ancients were quite likely part of the attempted genocide of the Asuran people, and were in any case all military combatants. Talus doesn't even show any intention to execute the Tau'ri at any stage, going so far as to have his men stun people he don't need to keep alive.

Certainly, the Asurans planned to destroy Atlantis before this, but whether or not they would have given the expedition any chance to evacuate is unknown.

The attack and destruction of Asuras was done because the Asurans were trying to commit galactic genocide of humans. Technically I think that counts as self-defense

They had done no such thing at that time. They were building a fleet. If genocide for possessing warships is justified, presumably you would have no problem with the Asurans building their own equivalent of an anti-replicator weapon, and firing a dakara life-destroyer pulse onto Earth? Earth is constantly building warships too.

They were set up to be performing genocide on humans for a stupid and poorly explained reason, because the writers realised that if they just had them make war on the Wraith, the entire audience would be rooting for the notionally bad Asurans. Can't really defend that, but as of First Strike, the good guys have escalated to genocide (not just the nukes, remember, even Weir wanted to wait only until they had a planet wide anti replicator weapon to kill the entire population with at once) first.

As for their attack on humans, it can't have been as described. Six worlds. While it's obviously a warcrime, they can't have been going for all out extermination of humans. Whatever their motives were, we can probably assume that the Wraith take on it was wrong or lies.

[adam_grif]

Well while the thread is still here:

How much power does a ZPM have? I seem to vaguely recall them not being all that impressive by SciFi standards, but numbers escape me.

Just going back to watch First Strike again, the beam weapon that was going to deplete Atlantis' shields in 29 hours barely vaporized any surface water :/

[NecronLord]

Well while the thread is still here:

How much power does a ZPM have? I seem to vaguely recall them not being all that impressive by SciFi standards, but numbers escape me.

I calced 8MT/sec a while back as an upper limit. This can now be doubled at least given larger scalings of Atlantis.

Just going back to watch First Strike again, the beam weapon that was going to deplete Atlantis' shields in 29 hours barely vaporized any surface water :/

Meaningless; it was shown to be a very efficient penetrator. Likely it was in part something like neutrinos.

[adam_grif]

I calced 8MT/sec a while back as an upper limit. This can now be doubled at least given larger scalings of Atlantis.

How does that figure compare to SW/ST/40K equivelants? Do we know the total capacity of a fully powered ZPM? Say if one were to spontaneously blow up or something.

[Eternal_Freedom]

We know that if tampered with they can eradicate most anything in a solar system. So, nova-scale energy, possibly supernova scale

And Necron_Lord, I concede the self-defense thing. However, I still thin the pre-emptive strike was justified from the Tau'ri POV, having seen what replicators did to the Asgard, and knowing of their plan to destroy the human population, AND the fact that EVERY single replicator is in on it and EVERY LAST ONE needs to be destroyed

Its like trying to kill a virus, if even one is left it can start multiplying and its back to square one

[Batman]

We know that if tampered with they can eradicate most anything in a solar system. So, nova-scale energy, possibly supernova scale

Do we? We've been certainly TOLD so but I don't think we ever actually SEE that happen. Besides, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a DET event.
At a continuous output of 20MT/sec that would give a fully charged ZPM a service lifetime of 2.56E19 years. One wonders how the SGC manages to drain them with such astounding regularity.

[NecronLord]

We know that if tampered with they can eradicate most anything in a solar system. So, nova-scale energy, possibly supernova scale

And Necron_Lord, I concede the self-defense thing. However, I still thin the pre-emptive strike was justified from the Tau'ri POV, having seen what replicators did to the Asgard, and knowing of their plan to destroy the human population,

Radically different replicators; and if power is a justification for genocide, it's time to kill the Tau'ri. There was no such plan. It's quite clear as of First Strike that they did not. Woolsey admits that the Asurans attacks on human populations are the result of turning on the attack code in Inquisition - the attack code was activated in a later episode.

AND the fact that EVERY single replicator is in on it and EVERY LAST ONE needs to be destroyed

Every single replicator? Repli-Keller et al included. I think not.

Oberoth even goes so far as to say 'sure, a peace could have existed between us, until you opened up with nukes'

[adam_grif]

At the same time he's also trying to upload a virus to the SGC, so he may have just been stalling for time and can't be implicitly trusted with regards to that statement.

[Mystikal]

In fairness to the Tau'ri, "First Strike" was a badly named episode. The Asurans had already tried to wipe out atlantis in "Progeny" took over Atlantis and murdered the last Ancients in "The Return" (The appearance of for-real ancients was far too brief as well).

Murdered? Executed. Those Ancients were quite likely part of the attempted genocide of the Asuran people, and were in any case all military combatants. Talus doesn't even show any intention to execute the Tau'ri at any stage, going so far as to have his men stun people he don't need to keep alive.

Certainly, the Asurans planned to destroy Atlantis before this, but whether or not they would have given the expedition any chance to evacuate is unknown.

The attack and destruction of Asuras was done because the Asurans were trying to commit galactic genocide of humans. Technically I think that counts as self-defense

They had done no such thing at that time. They were building a fleet. If genocide for possessing warships is justified, presumably you would have no problem with the Asurans building their own equivalent of an anti-replicator weapon, and firing a dakara life-destroyer pulse onto Earth? Earth is constantly building warships too.

They were set up to be performing genocide on humans for a stupid and poorly explained reason, because the writers realised that if they just had them make war on the Wraith, the entire audience would be rooting for the notionally bad Asurans. Can't really defend that, but as of First Strike, the good guys have escalated to genocide (not just the nukes, remember, even Weir wanted to wait only until they had a planet wide anti replicator weapon to kill the entire population with at once) first.

As for their attack on humans, it can't have been as described. Six worlds. While it's obviously a warcrime, they can't have been going for all out extermination of humans. Whatever their motives were, we can probably assume that the Wraith take on it was wrong or lies.

You do realize in a Total War that targeting the enemies food supplies is not only legitimate but a important asset to target?

What were the Wraiths food supplies? Humans.

Just six worlds? Think about it, they were implying a direct attack on food supplies. Wraith already fight amongst themsleves when there is plenty to go around, when it appears that the food is going to start dissappearing, they will start fighting over planets, devoting ships to patrolling and defense while the Aurans would be able to pick and choose at will. By only attacking a few they scare the Wraith enough to fight amongst themselves but not enough yet to force them to unite. And with a minimal of resources to boot. Not that stupid when you think about it.

I don't see what was so awful in writing it like that. A bit blunt but still truthfull. Also, Genocide? They are Replicators. I don't care what they are building the fleet for, military expansion of that magnitude is a threat in itself. High Seas Fleet anyone? A premeptve stirke upon military assets is also a legitimate tacits. Problem is is that the Auran target where rather difficult to seriously harm with normal weaponry and the ships and dockyards they built were rather huge. Sure, it looks hoorrible at first but high-yeild nukes are what was neccesary to actually do any real harm to both targets and infrastructure. Remember, Asurans don't suffer from radiation sickness and were an obviuos and immediate threat to security. I for one have no problem with them being a bit proactive about combatting them.

[NecronLord]

You do realize in a Total War that targeting the enemies food supplies is not only legitimate but a important asset to target?

The Asurans had no need to fight a "total war" to defeat the Wraith. If the Wraith had the capacity to attack Asuras and defeat it short of Tau'ri plot device, they would have done so thousands of years ago.

What were the Wraiths food supplies? Humans.

Just six worlds?

Canonical. That's how many worlds the Asurans hit. If the Asurans wanted to destroy humans, there are easier ways to do it than flying round hitting less than one planet per day. They involve nanite swarms or dakara devices.

Think about it, they were implying a direct attack on food supplies. Wraith already fight amongst themsleves when there is plenty to go around, when it appears that the food is going to start dissappearing, they will start fighting over planets, devoting ships to patrolling and defense while the Aurans would be able to pick and choose at will. By only attacking a few they scare the Wraith enough to fight amongst themselves but not enough yet to force them to unite. And with a minimal of resources to boot. Not that stupid when you think about it.

Scare the wraith into what? Uhuh.

Without being able to reprogram them to return to their homeworld and sit there, it's pretty clear the Asurans were going to rape them :- they did so against stronger, better fed wraith in the past. They had no need to attack said human worlds, it is therefore criminal to do so.

I don't see what was so awful in writing it like that. A bit blunt but still truthfull. Also, Genocide? They are Replicators. I don't care what they are building the fleet for, military expansion of that magnitude is a threat in itself.

Uhuh. So you would have no problem with them doing the same to Nebraska, or wherever it is the 304s are built?

High Seas Fleet anyone? A premeptve stirke upon military assets is also a legitimate tacits. Problem is is that the Auran target where rather difficult to seriously harm with normal weaponry and the ships and dockyards they built were rather huge. Sure, it looks hoorrible at first but high-yeild nukes are what was neccesary to actually do any real harm to both targets and infrastructure. Remember, Asurans don't suffer from radiation sickness and were an obviuos and immediate threat to security. I for one have no problem with them being a bit proactive about combatting them.

Weir's 'reasonable' plan was to use a PWARW and destroy their entire civilization.