Dell may pull out of China over Google incident

[The Kernel]

The world's third largest computer maker is reportedly looking for a safer environment

Dell currently does about $25B USD in business in China. It could soon pull the plug on that business and move it to India, according to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who spoke with the Hindustan Times.

The Indian newspaper quotes India's PM as stating, "This morning I met the chairman of Dell Corporation. He informed me that they are buying equipment and parts worth $25 billion from China. They would like to shift to safer environment with climate conducive to enterprise with security of legal system."

Michael Dell was in India this week, meeting with Indian officials. Dell already has one plant in India.

Some are speculating that Dell is alarmed by the Chinese government's response to Google -- who uncensored its Chinese search results on Monday. The Chinese government is accusing Google of espionage and trying to force it out of the country. Dell enjoys a close relationship with Google and is preparing to launch an Android handset (which will likely be banned from China).

Dell also is likely concerned about the rash of cyberattacks that China has cast a blind eye to. Some, though, says that Dell is merely trying to play China and India to get the most favorable deal possible in terms of taxes, land, etc.

A decision to move its Chinese business to India would certainly rock the global economy. With the exit of Dell and Google, others might be tempted to similarly jump ship. That could have a huge impact on the growing economies of China, and its neighbor India.

Some American firms, though, have stated that they have no intention to leave China. Microsoft recently came out in support of Chinese censorship and Dell's rival Apple continues to be very ardent about doing business in China, despite its struggles to sell its pricey products there.

Wow...if this is true this could have a massive effect on how China treat foreign business. This is a no-win situation for them since they either have the option of losing billions of dollars of foreign business or making very public concessions.

Bravo Google, you may very well have just changed the world in a way that no government before you has managed to do.

[Shroom Man 777]

Microsoft supports Chinese censorship? Awesome.

That's good of Dell to do more business with India. More people should do business with India and, most preferably, also Russia. Those are big countries with lots of potential, and could use some economic loving. More business for India is great!

As for China, well, hey, you should've played nicer. Sorry Lusy-chan.

[Red]

Apologies, could you post the link to that article? I'm too lazy to open a tab to google it, but would rather write a long and drawn-out sentence to make you work.

My first reaction is the same as Shroom's. "Microsoft recently came out in support of Chinese censorship" sounds loaded. Did Microsoft announce "we love China's policies!" or did it rather say something like "we're not going to fight what a nation wants to do, but instead will work around and within its policies"?

:x Did Google start something? Or is this a natural progression, and Google was merely the first company to stir?

[Duckie]

here

You're too lazy to google the first few words? It took me less than a single second to highlight a random section and right click to search google, and even if you didn't have that option in your browser it'd take literally no time to "highlight control-c alt-home control-v return", assuming your home page is google like 90% of the internet. And god forbid you had to manually go to google. I've literally spent more time writing this reply to you than it would have taken for you to google this page. In fact, you've spent more time reading it, even assuming that I replied instantly so you didn't waste time waiting for a response.

I wish my life were awesome and interesting enough I couldn't spare 10 seconds.

Also, the thing was started by Google finding out china hacked some dissidents' gmail accounts to gather information on everyone they had spoken to, and also something I can't remember too well about possible corporate espionage against (them? an affilliate via gmail?). They naturally were pissed.

[K. A. Pital]

Dell? Who cares. More market capacity for Lenovo. *cue evil cackle*

[Red]

In fact, you've spent more time reading it, even assuming that I replied instantly so you didn't waste time waiting for a response.

I think I just got trolled. ^_^

I remember the original event, and the discussion here when it happened. (link) There was a lot of discussion, here and elsewhere on da InterWebz, about what the true motivations were behind the change in Google stance. The question was raised about whether or not Google was merely using the hacking as an excuse for a decision it wanted to make anyway. (example post)

So, that's what my question is really getting at. Do China's recent actions and Google's response really form the first chapter in the approaching drama, and Dell is the next step? Or is the minor exodus of tech corporations (and other industries interested in proliferation of economic/political freedoms) something that's been a long time coming, and neither Google's actions nor Dell's announcements are anything more than the first movers?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Good, fuck China. Though I don't see this achieving much.

It will drastically backfire when they're calling all the shots though and force us to learn Mandarin at gunpoint, or they'll drop all those T-bills they've been holding and kill us ALL! Economically.

[The Kernel]

Good, fuck China. Though I don't see this achieving much.

It will drastically backfire when they're calling all the shots though and force us to learn Mandarin at gunpoint, or they'll drop all those T-bills they've been holding and kill us ALL! Economically.

Actually it changes a shitload. Unlike with Google pulling out (where they just offload capacity to services like Baidu) Dell is actually pulling $25 billion worth of manufacturing out of China which is a HUGE amount. This is not capacity that is going somewhere else within China, it is actually going to be moving to India full stop.

Furthermore, although the financial aspect of it hurts, the potential political fallout could be ten times worse. The Chinese government can either ignore this (bad) or vilify Dell (even worse), either decision might result in more companies pulling up shop and moving elsewhere. It's not like China has the lock on high tech cheap manufacturing anymore--India is fully capable of picking up a lot of their slack. Doing business in India has its own sets of problems, but at least you aren't funding the oppressive Chinese government.

[The Kernel]

Dell? Who cares. More market capacity for Lenovo. *cue evil cackle*

This isn't about machines sold in China, this is machines manufactured in China and shipped to the US and Europe. Remember how China has that teeny thing called a massive trade surplus? This is one of the consequences of that.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Actually it changes a shitload. Unlike with Google pulling out (where they just offload capacity to services like Baidu) Dell is actually pulling $25 billion worth of manufacturing out of China which is a HUGE amount. This is not capacity that is going somewhere else within China, it is actually going to be moving to India full stop.

Furthermore, although the financial aspect of it hurts, the potential political fallout could be ten times worse. The Chinese government can either ignore this (bad) or vilify Dell (even worse), either decision might result in more companies pulling up shop and moving elsewhere. It's not like China has the lock on high tech cheap manufacturing anymore--India is fully capable of picking up a lot of their slack. Doing business in India has its own sets of problems, but at least you aren't funding the oppressive Chinese government.

I would dearly love for this to come to something that really makes The Party take a long, hard look at their current status and question whether their wealth and power would still be there if everyone upped and went to India, for instance. It's one thing to have the US as the superpower now, for all its drawbacks, but China with a very real tyrannical government would be much worse. Economic clout for a nation that is happy to censor and oppress dissent is not what I like to see the free market work for, so if Dell is following a trend Google has set in motion, then bully for them. Better still if others wake up and figure they don't need to stick around propping up a regime they're not particularly fond of, were it not for cheap labour.

We shall see how this goes. It'd be nice for megacorps around the world to start making decisions based on the ethics of their business, rather than a healthy bottom line as the sole factor.

[montypython]

Dell? Who cares. More market capacity for Lenovo. *cue evil cackle*

Considering the crappy products and service I've had to put up with Dell, I also say better the opportunity for Lenovo.

[bobalot]

India has problems with bureaucracy and corruption, but they are working hard on these problems. For a large company like Dell, the central government would be able to intervene and overcome/bypass these problems.

[The Kernel]

I would dearly love for this to come to something that really makes The Party take a long, hard look at their current status and question whether their wealth and power would still be there if everyone upped and went to India, for instance. It's one thing to have the US as the superpower now, for all its drawbacks, but China with a very real tyrannical government would be much worse. Economic clout for a nation that is happy to censor and oppress dissent is not what I like to see the free market work for, so if Dell is following a trend Google has set in motion, then bully for them. Better still if others wake up and figure they don't need to stick around propping up a regime they're not particularly fond of, were it not for cheap labour.

We shall see how this goes. It'd be nice for megacorps around the world to start making decisions based on the ethics of their business, rather than a healthy bottom line as the sole factor.

Have you read the original Google postings that led to this? I'll post them below, they are the very picture of corporate responsibility in this regard and if Google can get other MegaCorps to starting acting like this then China will have to take notice.

Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different.

First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.

Third, as part of this investigation but independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties. These accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users' computers.

We have already used information gained from this attack to make infrastructure and architectural improvements that enhance security for Google and for our users. In terms of individual users, we would advise people to deploy reputable anti-virus and anti-spyware programs on their computers, to install patches for their operating systems and to update their web browsers. Always be cautious when clicking on links appearing in instant messages and emails, or when asked to share personal information like passwords online. You can read more here about our cyber-security recommendations. People wanting to learn more about these kinds of attacks can read this Report to Congress (PDF) by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission (see p. 163-), as well as a related analysis (PDF) prepared for the Commission, Nart Villeneuve's blog and this presentation on the GhostNet spying incident.

We have taken the unusual step of sharing information about these attacks with a broad audience not just because of the security and human rights implications of what we have unearthed, but also because this information goes to the heart of a much bigger global debate about freedom of speech. In the last two decades, China's economic reform programs and its citizens' entrepreneurial flair have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. Indeed, this great nation is at the heart of much economic progress and development in the world today.

We launched Google.cn in January 2006 in the belief that the benefits of increased access to information for people in China and a more open Internet outweighed our discomfort in agreeing to censor some results. At the time we made clear that "we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China."

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.

The decision to review our business operations in China has been incredibly hard, and we know that it will have potentially far-reaching consequences. We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China who have worked incredibly hard to make Google.cn the success it is today. We are committed to working responsibly to resolve the very difficult issues raised.

On January 12, we announced on this blog that Google and more than twenty other U.S. companies had been the victims of a sophisticated cyber attack originating from China, and that during our investigation into these attacks we had uncovered evidence to suggest that the Gmail accounts of dozens of human rights activists connected with China were being routinely accessed by third parties, most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on their computers. We also made clear that these attacks and the surveillance they uncovered—combined with attempts over the last year to further limit free speech on the web in China including the persistent blocking of websites such as Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Google Docs and Blogger—had led us to conclude that we could no longer continue censoring our results on Google.cn.

So earlier today we stopped censoring our search services—Google Search, Google News, and Google Images—on Google.cn. Users visiting Google.cn are now being redirected to Google.com.hk, where we are offering uncensored search in simplified Chinese, specifically designed for users in mainland China and delivered via our servers in Hong Kong. Users in Hong Kong will continue to receive their existing uncensored, traditional Chinese service, also from Google.com.hk. Due to the increased load on our Hong Kong servers and the complicated nature of these changes, users may see some slowdown in service or find some products temporarily inaccessible as we switch everything over.

Figuring out how to make good on our promise to stop censoring search on Google.cn has been hard. We want as many people in the world as possible to have access to our services, including users in mainland China, yet the Chinese government has been crystal clear throughout our discussions that self-censorship is a non-negotiable legal requirement. We believe this new approach of providing uncensored search in simplified Chinese from Google.com.hk is a sensible solution to the challenges we've faced—it's entirely legal and will meaningfully increase access to information for people in China. We very much hope that the Chinese government respects our decision, though we are well aware that it could at any time block access to our services. We will therefore be carefully monitoring access issues, and have created this new web page, which we will update regularly each day, so that everyone can see which Google services are available in China.

In terms of Google's wider business operations, we intend to continue R&D work in China and also to maintain a sales presence there, though the size of the sales team will obviously be partially dependent on the ability of mainland Chinese users to access Google.com.hk. Finally, we would like to make clear that all these decisions have been driven and implemented by our executives in the United States, and that none of our employees in China can, or should, be held responsible for them. Despite all the uncertainty and difficulties they have faced since we made our announcement in January, they have continued to focus on serving our Chinese users and customers. We are immensely proud of them.

[UnderAGreySky]

India has problems with bureaucracy and corruption, but they are working hard on these problems. For a large company like Dell, the central government would be able to intervene and overcome/bypass these problems.

With the right amount of political capital, permissions can fly. States like Gujarat, Haryana (Gurgaon, near Delhi, is a hot spot) and Karnataka (of which the capital, Bangalore you surely have heard of) have removed tonnes of red tape to attract businesses.

The ordinary Indian gets stuck in the queue, but the industrialist shouldn't have trouble

[montypython]

From what I've heard about the the Dell thing it was just a expansion plan for India and had nothing to do with withdrawal from China, just a misunderstanding. As for Google I trust them as much as I would Microsoft (i.e., not one bit).

[Admiral Valdemar]

Have you read the original Google postings that led to this? I'll post them below, they are the very picture of corporate responsibility in this regard and if Google can get other MegaCorps to starting acting like this then China will have to take notice.

*Snip blog excerpts*

That's definitely uplifting, and reminds me of why I always argued against the people who thought Google was like any other company and happy to kow tow the Chinese demand for censorship, so long as they got the monies. Now if this is a precedent that's being set for many anywhere near the size of Google, I'll gladly watch as the Chicoms weigh up which is more in their interest: losing billions of greenbacks, but losing their grip on the population or the alternative of cash, but dirt poor peasants seeing not everyone can move to those nice new cities cropping up everywhere.

I get weekly updates on Big Pharma stuff over in China now it's a big part of my company, and many others', R&D cycle. They may like to take note of this (especially when a large chunk of getting work with us means making the OECD and FDA inspectors feel satisfied you're not butchering kittens and selling drugs that go and kill people. Contaminated milk, anyone?).

[The Kernel]

Update: Looks like Hindustan Times might have been overzealous in their reporting:

The news that Dell might pull out of China, covered first by the Hindustan Times and Engadget appears inaccurate. We received a comment from David Frink, senior manager of Dell Corporate Affairs. Mr. Frink says that there are no immediate plans to pull out of China. He states:

There is a misunderstanding of what Mr. Dell and the Prime Minister discussed. In fact, Mr.Dell met with Prime Minister Singh to discuss ways of building India's hardware manufacturing eco-system. In this context, Mr. Dell said that the company spends approximately $25 billion annually on sourcing components from its suppliers in China. With the right kind of progress, Mr. Dell believes that India also has an opportunity of becoming a hardware manufacturing hub, generating employment and adding to the country's impressive growth. Dell HAS NOT made any plans to shift its component spend at this time.

Nonetheless, Dell may be disallowed to sell its new Android handsets in China later this year, which ironically may (in part) be manufactured in China.

Also in the news, China pushes back against Google and accuses them of spying on them.

Link

Google pushed. Now China is pushing back.

The company’s problems in China escalated on Tuesday as its ties to some Chinese partners began to come apart and the government reacted angrily to Google’s attempt to bypass government censors.

The overseas edition of the People’s Daily, the main newspaper of the Chinese Communist Party, on Wednesday accused Google of collaborating with U.S. spy agencies, Reuters reported.

‘‘For Chinese people, Google is not god, and even if it puts on a full-on show about politics and values, it is still not god,’’ said a front-page commentary piece. ‘‘In fact, Google is not a virgin when it comes to values. Its cooperation and collusion with the U.S. intelligence and security agencies is well-known."

As for Google's move, the newspaper said: ‘‘All this makes one wonder. Thinking about the United States’ big efforts in recent years to engage in Internet war, perhaps this could be an exploratory pre-dawn battle."

Google, the world’s largest Internet company, once viewed China, the world’s largest Internet market, as a bottomless well of opportunity with nearly 400 million Web users, and an even larger number of potential customers for its nascent, but vital, mobile phone business.

But by directing search users in China to its uncensored search engine based in Hong Kong, Google may have jeopardized its long-range plans.

“I don’t understand their calculation,” said J. Stapleton Roy, director of the Kissinger Institute on China and the United States at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. “I do not see how Google could have concluded that they could have faced down the Chinese on a domestic censorship issue,” said Mr. Roy, a former United States ambassador to China.

Google called the move sensible and said it hoped to keep its sales, research and other operations in China.

But some of those other businesses quickly came under pressure. China Mobile, the biggest cellular communications company in China and one of Google’s earliest partners in its foray into smartphones, was expected to cancel a deal that had placed Google’s search engine on its mobile Web home page. Millions of people use the page daily. In interviews, business executives close to industry officials said China Mobile was planning to scrap the deal under government pressure, although it had yet to find a replacement.

Similarly, China’s second-largest mobile company, China Unicom, was said by analysts and others to have delayed or scrapped the imminent introduction of a cellphone based on Google’s Android platform. One popular Web portal, Tom.com, already ceased using Google to power its search engine. The company is controlled by Li Ka-shing, the Hong Kong billionaire who has close ties to the Chinese government.

Technology analysts and the business executives said Google might also face problems in keeping its advertising sales force, which is crucial to the success of its Chinese language service on PCs and mobile phones.

In an interview on Tuesday, David Drummond, Google’s chief legal officer, said he did not see the company’s decision to serve Chinese search customers from outside China as an act of defiance. He said the move was consistent with Chinese law and with the company’s goal to stop participating in censorship. While it is possible that Google’s prospects in China could suffer, the company has yet to see any concrete business impact from its decision, he said.

“We certainly expected that if we take a stand around censorship that the government doesn’t like that it would have an impact on our business,” Mr. Drummond said. “We understood that as a possibility.”

But Mr. Drummond said that over time, Google would benefit from taking a principled stand in China and elsewhere. “It is good for our business to push for free expression,” he said.

Several analysts suggested that the government could shut down the company’s Chinese search service entirely by blocking access to Google’s mainland address, google.cn, or to its Hong Kong Web site, google.com.hk, though that had not happened as of Tuesday.

Users who went to google.cn were automatically being sent to google.com.hk. Google’s search engine in Hong Kong provides results in the simplified Chinese characters that mainland Chinese use. Chinese in Hong Kong use the traditional characters, which can contain more strokes and are more difficult to read and write. Government firewalls either disabled searches for highly objectionable terms completely or blocked links to certain results. That had typically been the case before Google’s action, only now millions more visitors were liable to encounter the disrupted access to an uncensored site.

Some China experts say they were perplexed by Google’s handling of the crisis, given its stated goals of keeping business operations in China.

David M. Lampton, director of China Studies at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, said it was not surprising for China to balk at the idea of an American company using Hong Kong, and China’s own “one country, two systems” policy, as a way around censorship.

The company’s problems in China escalated on Tuesday as its ties to some Chinese partners began to come apart and the government reacted angrily to Google’s attempt to bypass government censors.

The overseas edition of the People’s Daily, the main newspaper of the Chinese Communist Party, on Wednesday accused Google of collaborating with U.S. spy agencies, Reuters reported.

‘‘For Chinese people, Google is not god, and even if it puts on a full-on show about politics and values, it is still not god,’’ said a front-page commentary piece. ‘‘In fact, Google is not a virgin when it comes to values. Its cooperation and collusion with the U.S. intelligence and security agencies is well-known."

As for Google's move, the newspaper said: ‘‘All this makes one wonder. Thinking about the United States’ big efforts in recent years to engage in Internet war, perhaps this could be an exploratory pre-dawn battle."

Google, the world’s largest Internet company, once viewed China, the world’s largest Internet market, as a bottomless well of opportunity with nearly 400 million Web users, and an even larger number of potential customers for its nascent, but vital, mobile phone business.

But by directing search users in China to its uncensored search engine based in Hong Kong, Google may have jeopardized its long-range plans.

“I don’t understand their calculation,” said J. Stapleton Roy, director of the Kissinger Institute on China and the United States at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. “I do not see how Google could have concluded that they could have faced down the Chinese on a domestic censorship issue,” said Mr. Roy, a former United States ambassador to China.

Google called the move sensible and said it hoped to keep its sales, research and other operations in China.

But some of those other businesses quickly came under pressure. China Mobile, the biggest cellular communications company in China and one of Google’s earliest partners in its foray into smartphones, was expected to cancel a deal that had placed Google’s search engine on its mobile Web home page. Millions of people use the page daily. In interviews, business executives close to industry officials said China Mobile was planning to scrap the deal under government pressure, although it had yet to find a replacement.

Similarly, China’s second-largest mobile company, China Unicom, was said by analysts and others to have delayed or scrapped the imminent introduction of a cellphone based on Google’s Android platform. One popular Web portal, Tom.com, already ceased using Google to power its search engine. The company is controlled by Li Ka-shing, the Hong Kong billionaire who has close ties to the Chinese government.

Technology analysts and the business executives said Google might also face problems in keeping its advertising sales force, which is crucial to the success of its Chinese language service on PCs and mobile phones.

In an interview on Tuesday, David Drummond, Google’s chief legal officer, said he did not see the company’s decision to serve Chinese search customers from outside China as an act of defiance. He said the move was consistent with Chinese law and with the company’s goal to stop participating in censorship. While it is possible that Google’s prospects in China could suffer, the company has yet to see any concrete business impact from its decision, he said.

“We certainly expected that if we take a stand around censorship that the government doesn’t like that it would have an impact on our business,” Mr. Drummond said. “We understood that as a possibility.”

But Mr. Drummond said that over time, Google would benefit from taking a principled stand in China and elsewhere. “It is good for our business to push for free expression,” he said.

Several analysts suggested that the government could shut down the company’s Chinese search service entirely by blocking access to Google’s mainland address, google.cn, or to its Hong Kong Web site, google.com.hk, though that had not happened as of Tuesday.

Users who went to google.cn were automatically being sent to google.com.hk. Google’s search engine in Hong Kong provides results in the simplified Chinese characters that mainland Chinese use. Chinese in Hong Kong use the traditional characters, which can contain more strokes and are more difficult to read and write. Government firewalls either disabled searches for highly objectionable terms completely or blocked links to certain results. That had typically been the case before Google’s action, only now millions more visitors were liable to encounter the disrupted access to an uncensored site.

Some China experts say they were perplexed by Google’s handling of the crisis, given its stated goals of keeping business operations in China.

David M. Lampton, director of China Studies at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, said it was not surprising for China to balk at the idea of an American company using Hong Kong, and China’s own “one country, two systems” policy, as a way around censorship.

Others said Google’s move also put Chinese authorities in a difficult situation, as the government might be wary of agitating loyal Google users in China, who tend to be highly educated and vocal.

“To block Google entirely is not necessarily a desirable outcome for the government,” said Mark Natkin, managing director of Marbridge Consulting, a technology research firm in Beijing. “It’s going to boil down to whether authorities feel it is acceptable for users to be redirected to that site without having to figure it out themselves.”

The potential loss of cellphone search customers could prove particularly painful over time, analysts say. As on PCs, Google makes money on mobile phones when people click on its ads. If carriers like China Mobile and China Unicom remove Google as their principal mobile search service, it could cut Google’s mobile business.

Also, the spread of Android phones, which is just beginning in China, was meant by Google to ensure the availability of its services like search and maps on smartphones. Yet this month, Motorola replaced Google’s search on Android phones in China with Bing, Microsoft’s rival service, because of the uncertainty surrounding Google’s fate in the country.

Estimates from analysts and some Google insiders put the company’s annual revenue in China at $300 million to $600 million, a small fraction of Google’s nearly $24 billion in annual sales. But investors were counting on that strategically important business to grow rapidly.

“Having that potential is worth quite a bit to investors,” said Ben Schachter, an analyst with Broadpoint AmTech.

Google shares have lost nearly 6 percent of their value since the company said in January that it might pull out of China. During the same period, the Nasdaq 100 index rose by nearly 5 percent.

For his part, Sergey Brin, a Google founder and its president of technology, on Monday held out the possibility that some day Google and China would patch up their differences.

“Perhaps we can return to serving mainland China in the future,” he said.

[The Kernel]

That's definitely uplifting, and reminds me of why I always argued against the people who thought Google was like any other company and happy to kow tow the Chinese demand for censorship, so long as they got the monies. Now if this is a precedent that's being set for many anywhere near the size of Google, I'll gladly watch as the Chicoms weigh up which is more in their interest: losing billions of greenbacks, but losing their grip on the population or the alternative of cash, but dirt poor peasants seeing not everyone can move to those nice new cities cropping up everywhere.

When it comes down to it, Google is run not by a bunch of suits but by two 35 year olds with an internet messiah complex (although to be fair to them, it is pretty well deserved). Because of their enormous success, Brin and Page have pretty much unchecked ability to influence policy at Google and by all accounts Schmidt is complete on board with this.

[ArmorPierce]

In fact, you've spent more time reading it, even assuming that I replied instantly so you didn't waste time waiting for a response.

I think I just got trolled. ^_^

I remember the original event, and the discussion here when it happened. (link) There was a lot of discussion, here and elsewhere on da InterWebz, about what the true motivations were behind the change in Google stance. The question was raised about whether or not Google was merely using the hacking as an excuse for a decision it wanted to make anyway. (example post)

So, that's what my question is really getting at. Do China's recent actions and Google's response really form the first chapter in the approaching drama, and Dell is the next step? Or is the minor exodus of tech corporations (and other industries interested in proliferation of economic/political freedoms) something that's been a long time coming, and neither Google's actions nor Dell's announcements are anything more than the first movers?

Those acusations (google was using it as an excuse to leave china when they already wanted to) did not make sense when google had med with other companies in order to make a boycott on China.

[K. A. Pital]

That's definitely uplifting, and reminds me of why I always argued against the people who thought Google was like any other company and happy to kow tow the Chinese demand for censorship, so long as they got the monies.

Why is Chinese censorship for Google any more wrong than the censorship of their satellite maps and/or news results on demand by wealthy oligarchs? It's a hot topic here in Russia. Google is still the whores they are and they will do anything for money. As for their brawl with the Chinese, I doubt it will change much of their policies. A whore is always a whore. A capitalist is always a whore, too. Damn, I sound like Shroom, but it's well warranted.

So you all are cheering for Google when they attack the Chinese government for censorship, but it's okay for them to take money from Miller and other thugs who are basically glorified fucking bandits, hide their mansions and estates, it's all right. That's not "censorship" - once google got out of China, they are now the paragon of morality!

Google's "morality" is bullshit, like all megacorps. It's an oddity if anything that they'd even care; if the Chinese government hadn't been so blatant as to hack their accounts, they wouldn't have given a flying fuck. And I think we all know it. They didn't give a flying fuck for years.

Now if this is a precedent that's being set for many anywhere near the size of Google, I'll gladly watch as the Chicoms weigh up which is more in their interest: losing billions of greenbacks, but losing their grip on the population or the alternative of cash, but dirt poor peasants seeing not everyone can move to those nice new cities cropping up everywhere.

China is not entirely dependent on foreign investment for industrialization; in fact, I'd say they have passed the threshold where they can do it on their own. It will be a lot of pain, but actually, that would help China become more independent in the long run, as opposed to having to constrain consumption in favour of First World exports.

Doing business in India has its own sets of problems, but at least you aren't funding the oppressive Chinese government.

Yeah, you're funding the Indian government, which had less than stellar results in reducing human suffering (outside of a few places, like Kerala). Which is actually a good idea, maybe - China is already more wealthy than India, so perhaps it's time to help the Indians to rise. Not that it changes much, like I said. 25 billion from 8 trillion? That's 0,03%.

This isn't about machines sold in China, this is machines manufactured in China and shipped to the US and Europe. Remember how China has that teeny thing called a massive trade surplus? This is one of the consequences of that.

Well then I guess the Chinese should start selling laptops to their own populace. Perhaps it's high time for China to look towards it's own domestic market rather than continue selling to the West.

I would dearly love for this to come to something that really makes The Party take a long, hard look at their current status and question whether their wealth and power would still be there if everyone upped and went to India, for instance.

If it happens right now, this would probably cause an economic collapse of China and unmitigated economic hardship on a population which barely rose from agrarian poverty into industrialism. But hey, political pipe dreams make it perfectly well to wish folks suffering in the name of freedom, right?

It's one thing to have the US as the superpower now, for all its drawbacks, but China with a very real tyrannical government would be much worse. Economic clout for a nation that is happy to censor and oppress dissent is not what I like to see the free market work for, so if Dell is following a trend Google has set in motion, then bully for them. Better still if others wake up and figure they don't need to stick around propping up a regime they're not particularly fond of, were it not for cheap labour.

China's advantage lies not only in "cheap labour". Labour in SEA is cheap overall. Indian labour is also cheap. However, China is institutionally stable, has a decent urban life standard which matters for the advanced industrial workforce, et cetera. The "free market" works to support anything so as long as it's economically profitable. It's absolutely irrelevant what it actually is.

We shall see how this goes. It'd be nice for megacorps around the world to start making decisions based on the ethics of their business, rather than a healthy bottom line as the sole factor.

That's not going to happen en masse, unless you have a magic wand somewhere in the closet which would change some of the most ruthless institutions on Earth into their Hello Kitty counterparts.

Moreover, this seems to turn out much ado about nothing. The world is not changing overnight. Megacorps remain greedy ugly shit (at the same time moving industrialization forward, heh). The PRC remains an autocracy, and frankly, so far no amount of criticism's going to change that (not that China'd see any incentive to; they'd been doing better than their neighbors while remaining autocratic). People with money and power remain shit, in general.

I can't believe some sort of "moral stance" of a megacorporation can suddenly cause people to go all teary-eyed and loving caring care bear bullshit - "oh look at them, the moral knights in white armor, the Robin Hoods!"

If a thief who steals millions suddenly helps one malnourished child, he's still a fucking bastard. Some individual "moral stances" by megacorps change nothing. They didn't become one inch better or one inch worse. Even a bad institution can take a moral stance sometimes. The problem is all the other times it takes a "moral" stance which completely ignores morals. So what's the reason for the fiesta?

[mr friendly guy]

I would dearly love for this to come to something that really makes The Party take a long, hard look at their current status and question whether their wealth and power would still be there if everyone upped and went to India, for instance.

Hang on a minute, in the Iran punishes acid dropper by dropping acid into his eyes thread didn't AV rail against the concept of punishment for its own ends, yet is just describing what amounts to punishment of the CCP, never mind that if that happens it would likely be the little guy and not the party faithful that are mostly hurt.

[ray245]

I would dearly love for this to come to something that really makes The Party take a long, hard look at their current status and question whether their wealth and power would still be there if everyone upped and went to India, for instance.

Hang on a minute, in the Iran punishes acid dropper by dropping acid into his eyes thread didn't AV rail against the concept of punishment for its own ends, yet is just describing what amounts to punishment of the CCP, never mind that if that happens it would likely be the little guy and not the party faithful that are mostly hurt.

Most people don't realise there are ordinary people who lives in China.

[The Kernel]

Why is Chinese censorship for Google any more wrong than the censorship of their satellite maps and/or news results on demand by wealthy oligarchs? It's a hot topic here in Russia. Google is still the whores they are and they will do anything for money. As for their brawl with the Chinese, I doubt it will change much of their policies. A whore is always a whore. A capitalist is always a whore, too. Damn, I sound like Shroom, but it's well warranted.

So you all are cheering for Google when they attack the Chinese government for censorship, but it's okay for them to take money from Miller and other thugs who are basically glorified fucking bandits, hide their mansions and estates, it's all right. That's not "censorship" - once google got out of China, they are now the paragon of morality!

So we should never champion a positive effort by a corporation?

Let's say for example Pfizer decided to start giving away HIV drugs to Africans for free...would you respond to that by pointing out how they fuck people out of money elsewhere in the world? Are you really that bitter?

Google's "morality" is bullshit, like all megacorps. It's an oddity if anything that they'd even care; if the Chinese government hadn't been so blatant as to hack their accounts, they wouldn't have given a flying fuck. And I think we all know it. They didn't give a flying fuck for years.

They also could have not given a fuck in this case but they chose to do so anyway. And in doing so they screwed themselves out of billions in revenue plus a rapidly expanding market with no benefit besides some positive press.

[The Kernel]

Most people don't realise there are ordinary people who lives in China.

I hate to paraphrase George W. Bush, but Democracy is a messy business. China becoming more open and with a less oppressive government is better for everyone in the long run even if it causes short-term pain.

[ray245]

Most people don't realise there are ordinary people who lives in China.

I hate to paraphrase George W. Bush, but Democracy is a messy business. China becoming more open and with a less oppressive government is better for everyone in the long run even if it causes short-term pain.

Why is there a need for China to be democratic now, bearing in mind that China is actually liberalising as we speak.

They also could have not given a fuck in this case but they chose to do so anyway. And in doing so they screwed themselves out of billions in revenue plus a rapidly expanding market with no benefit besides some positive press.

Not really, most of the news report are saying that Google isn't really earning back the investment they have made and their business isn't really growing to the level that they wanted.