Ethics question

[ArmorPierce]

I have been pondering on this ethics question for a while. Is it wrong to not feel any sympathy for someone who went from a quality of life that was ahead of your own to one that is still higher than yours or equal to yours?

For example. I was at a job interview where the intervier made mention of the banks collapsing and said "All those poor people." I sat there, unable to feel any actual sympathy for them. If anyone knows me, I have come from a very poor background (and am still in one) where income-wise, I am at the bottom. To put it into perspective, Biggie came from a far better background than I did (my brother actually went to school in the area where he used to hang out, deal and hussle at). I was unable to feel any sympathy for these people that came down from positions that were far better than my own, to positions that are still far ahead of mine. The only people that I would feel any sympathy for are those that are liberal, but even then, I would not say that what I feel towards them is 'sympathy.'

So what do you guys think? Am I wrong in feeling this way?

Moved to SLAM --Lagmonster

[Darth Wong]

I have been pondering on this ethics question for a while. Is it wrong to not feel any sympathy for someone who went from a quality of life that was ahead of your own to one that is still higher than yours or equal to yours?

For example. I was at a job interview where the intervier made mention of the banks collapsing and said "All those poor people." I sat there, unable to feel any actual sympathy for them. If anyone knows me, I have come from a very poor background (and am still in one) where income-wise, I am at the bottom. To put it into perspective, Biggie came from a far better background than I did (my brother actually went to school in the area where he used to hang out, deal and hussle at). I was unable to feel any sympathy for these people that came down from positions that were far better than my own, to positions that are still far ahead of mine. The only people that I would feel any sympathy for are those that are liberal, but even then, I would not say that what I feel towards them is 'sympathy.'

So what do you guys think? Am I wrong in feeling this way?

Why should you feel sympathy for them? They caused the economic collapse. If anything, you should feel contempt and disgust. Half the problem with people like investment bankers is that while everyone knows they are zero value-added middle-man parasites, they do not feel this contempt at an individual level. As a group, they may be disliked, but in their communities they are well-liked. Even if you personally knew an investment banker and even if he was doing all of the bad shit that got us into this mess, you would probably not greet him with contempt. He might be a very friendly, happy guy, and you would probably respond accordingly.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

No. If their quality of life is such that they're not simply eek out an existing day to day, then there is no reason to feel any shred of sympathy. If they're suffering, then its because they no longer have what you or I view as an extravagant luxury. They didn't really loose anything that is essential for everyday life.

[K. A. Pital]

Sympathy for the rich? Nothing could be more of an oxymoron. "Suffering" is something so fucking remote from them that they have forgotten what it looks like. They live in a reality where everything is possible.

Why should these people deserve any sympathy or compassion? Because they're humans? Too bad; that's not enough. Suffering is a valid cause for compassion, but the rich don't suffer. Their "suffering" is a status of heaven for the common man.

My feelings when I see or hear talk of "poor rich people" range from despising to open hatred. It's perfectly normal.

[PeZook]

So...somebody lost his twenty million dollar home and now will have to get by on a measly salary of a hundred thousand per year (supplemented by his massively fat savings account) working a random office job?

Why, what a terrible and unjust occurence!

I feel sympathy for the people who actually lost actually productive jobs and can't get another, and thus have to face the prospect of being unable to provide for their family, not pricks who fell from their gold-plated perch down to a regular one, but still have plenty of seeds to peck at.

[Broomstick]

No need for sympathy.

Look, I used to have a very nice income, a very expensive hobby, lived pretty damn good. Now... I'm officially poor. Oddly enough, in some ways I'm happier - I'm not happy about poverty, which sucks, or being unable to pay bills some months, but I "downsized" my life and activities and found other things I enjoyed doing that didn't cost as much and made necessary adjustments. If people "better off" than me can't manage a budget, prioritize their life, make necessary cuts/sacrifices, etc. I have little other than contempt for them.

Yes, it hurts to take a paycut. Part of being an adult is dealing with shit like that without whining and demanding people feel sorry for you.

[mr friendly guy]

If I was dirt poor then guys falling from high up to my level I might feel sympathy for, unless we are talking about bankers which caused the economic collapse. However since I am middle class having them fall to my level wouldn't elicit sympathy. They still have a decent standard of living. That being said I have read in the papers, financial books etc of those who didn't save while the going was good and now they lost their jobs they are struggling to make ends meet. Notably those in the mining industry when the GFC hit. The funny thing about these ex mining workers is that they jokingly called themselves Cashed Up Bogans (CUBs) and now they whine against immigrants taking their jobs. One thing is correct though, they are bogans.

[Simon_Jester]

I only think sympathy would make sense if:
-We're talking about people not responsible for the problem: executives who cannot be held responsible for the collapse, for instance.
-They have real problems. "I'm suddenly middle class!" is not a real problem. "My marriage broke up after I lost my job!" is a real problem.

[K. A. Pital]

"My marriage broke up after I lost my job!" is a real problem.

If his wife is so spoiled that she can't tolerate becoming worker class again, I have no pity. Such individuals deserve contempt, not pity.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I think really it all depends. For example, if you are poor, even someone who is middle class is in a better position than you. A lot of people worked and toiled to get where they are, and to suddenly lose everything, all of that "investment" in time and effort, I do feel sorry for such people. Provided they were not stupid and living beyond their means.

However a corporate exec having to downsize... I am in the same boat as everyone else. Fuck em.

[aerius]

If the person can still meet the normal day to day needs for an average person without too much trouble, then fuck'em. If he can't, say for example he now needs to choose between gas for the furnace and gas for the car, then yeah, I would feel sympathy provided he wasn't some dumbass who blew his entire income on luxury expenses every year while he was living high on the hog. If he was a dumbass who did that, fuck'em.

To use an example, one my dumbass co-workers bought a $650k house on a $55k salary (how he managed to get a bank to approve this I have no fucking idea) and can barely keep up with the mortgage payments, then he goes and loads up his credit card with $10k of crap and had to take out a line of credit to pay off his credit card. If he gets demoted to $45k a year and gets his home foreclosed by the bank, which then garnishes his salary to make up its losses on the short-sale (gotta love full recourse loans), I'm going to laugh at him so hard.

[Simon_Jester]

"My marriage broke up after I lost my job!" is a real problem.

If his wife is so spoiled that she can't tolerate becoming worker class again, I have no pity. Such individuals deserve contempt, not pity.

For the wife or for the husband?

I mean, for crying out loud, does it strain your credulity that much to imagine someone's marriage falling apart under stress when they take a huge decline in income? Even if the final absolute income (after the problems of a job search) is still tolerable? I'm not necessarily talking about a "oh, well he shouldn't come crying to me because he married a spoiled bitch!" situation.

Again, the drop in income doesn't net him any sympathy by itself. If and only if it's causing other problems that are truly hurting him, despite reasonable efforts to handle the problem like a competent adult... then I will feel some sympathy for that.

[Oskuro]

Didn't some of these divorce cases happen after the income of the husband dropped a single order of magnitude, yet still was atrociously high?

[Surlethe]

The problem is, people don't evaluate things like income absolutely, they evaluate them relatively. For example, say a student scrapes by on $10,000/yr and gets a real job that pays $25,000/yr. That's a huge jump, more than doubling his income, so he's probably ecstatic about it - but in absolute terms he's still well below average. Same deal with a guy who goes from $1 million to $100,000. That's a humongous drop in income, even if he's still far better off than the average person. He's going to have to deal with that psychologically, and he's also going to have to make significant adjustments to his lifestyle; he would have had to be saving more than 90% of his income in order to not adjust at all.

So there probably are some very real psychological adjustments going on, if for no other reason than people can rarely put their own situations into objective perspective.

Of course, if even after dropping an order of magnitude someone's still making $100k, I've got no sympathy for his financial problems - he should have been packing 95% of his income into investments and savings, and he's still making three times average income, so fuck him.

[mr friendly guy]

The problem is, people don't evaluate things like income absolutely, they evaluate them relatively. For example, say a student scrapes by on $10,000/yr and gets a real job that pays $25,000/yr. That's a huge jump, more than doubling his income, so he's probably ecstatic about it - but in absolute terms he's still well below average. Same deal with a guy who goes from $1 million to $100,000. That's a humongous drop in income, even if he's still far better off than the average person. He's going to have to deal with that psychologically, and he's also going to have to make significant adjustments to his lifestyle; he would have had to be saving more than 90% of his income in order to not adjust at all.

How do these people expect to deal with retirement then?

I heard a story once (actually it was from a financial self help book) where the author talks about someone who he met. Essentially that guy was a "high flyer" who couldn't work after a nervous breakdown. He lamented that if he only saved I think it was 10% of his income when he was earning the big bucks he would still have a decent lifestyle now that he couldn't work. In such a situation I would have sympathy for him because of the nervous breakdown, but not much sympathy for his current lifestyle changes because he could of avoided it if he just saved.

[Surlethe]

HoSed a little tangent between Bounty and Broomstick.

[Sarevok]

Bear in mind the OPs question works both way. Suppose you live in USA or Europe and you lost your job. Now compare yourself with an employed Indian day laborer who earns maybe ten dollars on a good day. Should he not feel any sympathy for you because even jobless and possibly homeless you are thousand times better off than a Indian slum dweller living hand to mouth ? I mean your life may be shitty but our slum dwelling laborer friend could starve to death if he shows up late to work for two or three days and gets fired. Thats the kind of narrow margin between life and death the poorest of the poor in the world live in.

Now bankers are a different thing. They way above average people in income. Most of us wont even make a fraction of they make in money, property and houses owned. There is no sympathy for them because even after a pay cut they are great luxury. But for ordinary people a few steps ahead of you ? I think some sympathy is in order.

[ArmorPierce]

I fully understand why someone living in the slums of India wouldn't feel any sympathy for me and I don't mind. Compared to them, I am living the good life. The fact that there are poorer people in the world is why I felt weird telling people I'm poor because there are poorer people in the world. I then realized that many people who claim to be be poor, from the ghetto, had nothing growing up (most popular gangsta rappers), come from better off families. Biggie's mother for example has a Masters degree.

I can feel sympathy for someone a few steps ahead of me. I have trouble feeling sympathy for someone who dropped from more than a few steps from me (note that a few steps from me is still pretty low) to around my zone temporarily. For example, I have trouble sympathising for someone complaining that they had to take a $15 an hour pay cut and in all likely, this pay cut is temporary. That pay cut that they took is more than I make an hour in total and more likely than not they still have benefits such as medical.

Anyway, it's not just the richest of the rich I fail to feel sympathy, it's a good amount of middle class too that is above 'workiing class barring exceptions.

[Darth Wong]

There's a good line in Saving Private Ryan about how griping goes up the chain of command, not down. Similarly, whining about one's economic circumstances should only go up, not down. It's OK to complain about making only $15k/yr if you're talking to a guy who makes $50k/yr. It's not OK to do the reverse, and complain about making only $50k/yr when you're talking to a guy who makes $15k/yr.

Whining/complaining is not an act which occurs in a hermetic environment; it is a social communicative activity, and so the context matters. In other words, it matters who you're talking to. Executives who complain to the press may think they're not talking to anyone in particular, but that's not true; they're talking to the entire public, which can be visualized as an average earner. They should realize that. If they don't, they're fucking stupid.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Anyway, it's not just the richest of the rich I fail to feel sympathy, it's a good amount of middle class too that is above 'workiing class barring exceptions.

Well I suppose that depends on the exceptions.

Individuals that are highly educated for example. Those with PhDs that cannot get tenure because of university budget cuts, or who otherwise find themselves bereft of work. Bear in mind that the average PhD student (at least in the sciences) works 12-16 hour days for 4-8 years to get their positions, not counting undergrad work. During that time, we tend to exist at or near the local poverty level.

Would they count as exceptions?

There's a good line in Saving Private Ryan about how griping goes up the chain of command, not down. Similarly, whining about one's economic circumstances should only go up, not down. It's OK to complain about making only $15k/yr if you're talking to a guy who makes $50k/yr. It's not OK to do the reverse, and complain about making only $50k/yr when you're talking to a guy who makes $15k/yr.

Whining/complaining is not an act which occurs in a hermetic environment; it is a social communicative activity, and so the context matters. In other words, it matters who you're talking to. Executives who complain to the press may think they're not talking to anyone in particular, but that's not true; they're talking to the entire public, which can be visualized as an average earner. They should realize that. If they don't, they're fucking stupid.

Definitely agreed.

[ArmorPierce]

Anyway, it's not just the richest of the rich I fail to feel sympathy, it's a good amount of middle class too that is above 'workiing class barring exceptions.

Well I suppose that depends on the exceptions.

Individuals that are highly educated for example. Those with PhDs that cannot get tenure because of university budget cuts, or who otherwise find themselves bereft of work. Bear in mind that the average PhD student (at least in the sciences) works 12-16 hour days for 4-8 years to get their positions, not counting undergrad work. During that time, we tend to exist at or near the local poverty level.

Would they count as exceptions?

Since it is a lot of years of studying seemingly wasted, I think yes (I actually had a professor in this position so pretty much yeah but I guess it might depend on situation). I would feel more sympathy for someone who cam from a poorer background and was unable to find a solid job after the investment of all that time and money however.

[Flagg]

There's a good line in Saving Private Ryan about how griping goes up the chain of command, not down. Similarly, whining about one's economic circumstances should only go up, not down. It's OK to complain about making only $15k/yr if you're talking to a guy who makes $50k/yr. It's not OK to do the reverse, and complain about making only $50k/yr when you're talking to a guy who makes $15k/yr.

Whining/complaining is not an act which occurs in a hermetic environment; it is a social communicative activity, and so the context matters. In other words, it matters who you're talking to. Executives who complain to the press may think they're not talking to anyone in particular, but that's not true; they're talking to the entire public, which can be visualized as an average earner. They should realize that. If they don't, they're fucking stupid.

Christ, I remember when I was working as a dental lab tech one of my bosses constantly bitching about how much he had to pay each month to get his pool cleaned and his lawn mowed at his $300,000 house. A good 5 years before the price of houses skyrocketed. This was to an essentially captive audience of people making no more than $9 an hour.

[Darth Wong]

Christ, I remember when I was working as a dental lab tech one of my bosses constantly bitching about how much he had to pay each month to get his pool cleaned and his lawn mowed at his $300,000 house. A good 5 years before the price of houses skyrocketed. This was to an essentially captive audience of people making no more than $9 an hour.

That guy wasn't really complaining. He was combragging. Some people do that; they love to brag but they're not sure how to do it without seeming incredibly obnoxious, so they try to dress it up as complaining. For example:

"Do you know what the problem is with being 50 years old but having a 22 year old Swedish supermodel for a wife? You have to put up with young guys ogling her every time you go out".

When someone says something like that, he's not really complaining. He wants to brag in your face about how he's fucking a hot supermodel, but he wants to pretend he's not a braggart. I've known guys like that before; it's pretty damned annoying. If you're going to brag, just do it. Don't pretend you're complaining. See the red panties sig picture to see how bragging is properly done

[bobalot]

To be honest, I never had a great deal of respect for the rich to begin with. I never understood the reverence that people had for them. Half these assholes inherited their wealth and a good proportion of the rest made shitloads from doing activities which are pretty much worthless (See Tiger Woods, George Bush, Paris Hilton and almost the entire finance industry).

Sympathy wasn't exactly going to be flowing out of me if any of these people went from being fabulous wealthy to simply well off.

I can sympathise with people rich or poor when they have personal tragedies but financial setbacks that still leave them with a good standard of living? I don't think so.

Seriously, what did these banking douchebags expect the rest of us to feel for them?
The horror! Some rich douche can't afford a small Caribbean Island! It's almost as bad as losing your job and being unable to feed your family!

[Sela]

While I don't disagree with anything that's been said thusfar, I'd like to remind everyone that suffering *IS* relative to the individual. Trauma is related to the objective things that happen, yes, but the psychological effect and thus the suffering is purely about the mind responding to it. A beverly-hills chick with a hangnail may well be suffering just as much as an athlete with a torn ACL - though the amount of "pain" is not the same.

Similarly a millionaire miser who has attached is self-worth and life's work to his earnings and finds himself working for $100k a yr may well be suffering more than someone earning a fraction of his income. . .and conversely a man making $30k/yr who takes a $5k/yr paycut may well feel that same 'suffering' more than the millionaire despite the orders of magnitude difference in the actual amount of money lost.

As far as who deserves your sympathy? That's a different story. But don't kid yourself that the rich spoilt brat isn't suffering just because he "ought to be able to deal with it". To flip it onto yourself, have you ever said 'man I'm starving?'. Unless your socioeconomic situation is much worse than I'd imagined this statement would be greeted with *zero* pity from folks living in underpriviledged countries that are LITERALLY starving to death.

I think Darth Wong's reference from Saving Private Ryan said it best: "griping goes up the chain of command, not down."