SD+SB in Middle Earth

Ren · Post by **Ren** » 2003-02-17 05:28am

weemadando wrote:Possibly, though I was just looking through various maps of middle earth and thought of the following locations.

1 - A largish hill on the plains between the Greyflood River and Eryn Vorn. A minor tributory of the river would provide us with water, and we are central enough to not have to worry about distances for trade. We also get a strategic barrier between ourselves and Isengard.

2 - On the Lefnui River end of the Langstrad range. Gives us a decent location for trade with Gondor and Rohan, not to mention given us 2 easily defensible locations (mountain gap and river crossings) between Isengard and us.

I know nothing about ethier of these areas and the unknowns could be a big factor, what civilizations are near and are they freindly, what are their resources, are their any special dangers inherient to those regions, any special navigation hazards, ect. With the Lonely Mountian we know a little about the region so I would have to stick with that over these two.

weemadando wrote: 3 - If we thought we could be really self-sufficient OR create a decent barge fleet for trade. Near the Iron Mountains on the river that feeds to the River Running.

I know a little bit more about this then the other areas but to my knowledge this offers no advantages over the lonely mountain other than a superior number of dwarves if we make allies with Dain they may support us anyways.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-02-17 05:33am

Rob Wilson wrote:*snip*

So in effect I could shoot him repeatedly and not actually damage him beyond some holes in his armour.

Is it just me, or does that sound retarded? I'm not a Sauron-expert, but why the fuck does he need a physical form if it serves no purpose?

Ren · Post by **Ren** » 2003-02-17 05:35am

Robert Treder wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:*snip*

So in effect I could shoot him repeatedly and not actually damage him beyond some holes in his armour.
Is it just me, or does that sound retarded? I'm not a Sauron-expert, but why the fuck does he need a physical form if it serves no purpose?

He probably has the same problem that the ringwraiths do; without one he can't affect the world at all.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 05:36am

Robert Treder wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:*snip*

So in effect I could shoot him repeatedly and not actually damage him beyond some holes in his armour.
Is it just me, or does that sound retarded? I'm not a Sauron-expert, but why the fuck does he need a physical form if it serves no purpose?

How the hell else is he going to turn on the porno.....

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-17 05:38am

Ren wrote:
I know a little bit more about this then the other areas but to my knowledge this offers no advantages over the lonely mountain other than a superior number of dwarves if we make allies with Dain they may support us anyways.

http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/m ... thmap.html

I used this map for the most part (the 720k variant) along with the maps in my copy of LotR.

btw I love the AV, Morrowind creation from Machall. Two of my favourite things.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 05:38am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Those defensive figures for medieval armour are bullocks. Even the best 15th century plate - And nobody in the Middle Earth has armour that good - could be penetrated by arrow or arquebus fire at distances less than 15-30 yards (quality of manufacture caused massive variations, and there was of course a difference between arrows and guns).

Furthermore, the SCA doesn't use traditional techniques. Their armour is assembled out of a mishmash of modern materials made to look old-fashioned. In this case I suspect they were using ball against some armour made out of industrial steel, and perhaps weren't even accurately keeping track of the range at which the penetrations were made. The SCA is good fun but they're not good on historical accuracy and I wouldn't trust them for a science experiment either.

I'll drag up more facts on this shortly.

It should also be noted SCA armour....is good for SCA combat.....not much else.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-17 05:43am

Keevan_Colton wrote:
It should also be noted SCA armour....is good for SCA combat.....not much else.

As I mentioned to DoZ on AIM, the SCA here makes its armour in conjunction with some local smithies, using materials of the same quality as available in the periods in question.

They are pedantic and the armour is pretty damn good. Not the plastic painted to look like metal that some SCAs I've encounted use.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 05:46am

weemadando wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
It should also be noted SCA armour....is good for SCA combat.....not much else.
As I mentioned to DoZ on AIM, the SCA here makes its armour in conjunction with some local smithies, using materials of the same quality as available in the periods in question.

They are pedantic and the armour is pretty damn good. Not the plastic painted to look like metal that some SCAs I've encounted use.

I meant for practical use in combat without the rules laid down for how you can fight by the SCA.....against someone in SCA armour, I'd even be happy facing them unarmoured, its too heavy and with quite a number of gaping weaknesses as far as protection goes....

I'm not making any comment on smithing or its ability to stop bullets....just its practicality for anything other than SCA rules combat.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-17 05:50am

Keevan_Colton wrote:
I meant for practical use in combat without the rules laid down for how you can fight by the SCA.....against someone in SCA armour, I'd even be happy facing them unarmoured, its too heavy and with quite a number of gaping weaknesses as far as protection goes....

I'm not making any comment on smithing or its ability to stop bullets....just its practicality for anything other than SCA rules combat.

Hell, going in unarmoured AND unarmed would still mean probable victory in some of the SCA combats I've seen.

Ren · Post by **Ren** » 2003-02-17 05:51am

weemadando wrote:http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/m ... thmap.html

I used this map for the most part (the 720k variant) along with the maps in my copy of LotR.

These just provide geographical data, what is really needed is source that gives political and historical data. We could decide to put a base on some hills in an obscure part of the continent only to discover it's in the middle of thousands of hostile natives,or it was built on an ancient battle sight and filled with wights and the like.

weemadando wrote: btw I love the AV, Morrowind creation from Machall. Two of my favourite things.

Thanks, it matched my name so I decided to use it.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 05:53am

weemadando wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
I meant for practical use in combat without the rules laid down for how you can fight by the SCA.....against someone in SCA armour, I'd even be happy facing them unarmoured, its too heavy and with quite a number of gaping weaknesses as far as protection goes....

I'm not making any comment on smithing or its ability to stop bullets....just its practicality for anything other than SCA rules combat.
Hell, going in unarmoured AND unarmed would still mean probable victory in some of the SCA combats I've seen.

I considered competing in some SCA combat stuff....till I read over the rules.....
*shudders*
Those things make ST engineering practices look sane

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-02-17 09:53am

Ren wrote: Consider then the Lonely Mountian which has all the advantages of Weathertop ( well not the amusement factor ) and none of the drawbacks. Additionally if for some reason the dwarves and Dalemen will have nothing to do with us we can always generate money by plucking it off of Smauges 'diamond waistcoat'.

The Lonely Mountain is as bad as the Mouth of the Isen, it's 750 miles to the North of anywhere we might be called on to fight. In my First post, I said a hill with an Aquifer and place it Centrally, that means we are in Rohan somewhere, this gives us access to the trade routes, places us near Helms deep if needed, we can range to almost anywhere (the furthest we need to go is Lorien and it's closer to Rohan than the Lonely Mountain. We can get to both sides of the Misty Mountains without ever having to cross them and we have huge expanses around us for fields of fire.

The Lonely Mountain has no clear advantages, but plenty of disadvantages. The dwarves are isolationist as are the Dales men, the Elves of the Woods have even less to do with the Folkes of ME than the Dwarves do, so why would any of them give us the time of day let alone let us tell them how to use their forces.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-02-17 10:12am

Robert Treder wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:*snip*

So in effect I could shoot him repeatedly and not actually damage him beyond some holes in his armour.
Is it just me, or does that sound retarded? I'm not a Sauron-expert, but why the fuck does he need a physical form if it serves no purpose?

He's a demi-god, his corporeal form is there only to interact with ME, if he hadn't been daft enough to put the majority of his power into the Ring there would be no real way to stop him.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-02-17 10:29am

weemadando wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
It should also be noted SCA armour....is good for SCA combat.....not much else.
As I mentioned to DoZ on AIM, the SCA here makes its armour in conjunction with some local smithies, using materials of the same quality as available in the periods in question.

They are pedantic and the armour is pretty damn good. Not the plastic painted to look like metal that some SCAs I've encounted use.

And yet the Armour isn't proof against longbow arrows... last time I checked, bullets had slightly more power than arrows over any distance and as Asault rifle rounds are pointed in the same way as bodkin head s are, I'd be amazed if they didn't punch straight through armour at the same ranges and a darn sight further too. What are the details of the Armour construction, did they put anything inside the armour to measure the hydrostatic shock transmitted through the armour if no penetration occurred and what weapons were they firing?

I'm a bit suspect of thier findings because they claim a shotgun had the same power as a Rifle round at 30ft, when a Shotgun round (solid and pellet) never achieves the same power as a rifle round at any range (they are used on door hinges because of the WIDTH of the solid round allows it to remove a large area on impact). A rifle round has far greater Kinetic Energy at the muzzle than a shotgun does at any range. For a quick show of why Shotguns are useless against armour at even 6 yards go here. Though it was a Sawn off barrel (12") it still shows how even low grade car body steel can withstand them very easily.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 10:51am

Rob Wilson wrote:
Ren wrote: Consider then the Lonely Mountian which has all the advantages of Weathertop ( well not the amusement factor ) and none of the drawbacks. Additionally if for some reason the dwarves and Dalemen will have nothing to do with us we can always generate money by plucking it off of Smauges 'diamond waistcoat'.
The Lonely Mountain is as bad as the Mouth of the Isen, it's 750 miles to the North of anywhere we might be called on to fight. In my First post, I said a hill with an Aquifer and place it Centrally, that means we are in Rohan somewhere, this gives us access to the trade routes, places us near Helms deep if needed, we can range to almost anywhere (the furthest we need to go is Lorien and it's closer to Rohan than the Lonely Mountain. We can get to both sides of the Misty Mountains without ever having to cross them and we have huge expanses around us for fields of fire.

The Lonely Mountain has no clear advantages, but plenty of disadvantages. The dwarves are isolationist as are the Dales men, the Elves of the Woods have even less to do with the Folkes of ME than the Dwarves do, so why would any of them give us the time of day let alone let us tell them how to use their forces.

I agree that the mouth of the Isen and the lonley mountain are terrible places to be based, I'd say Helm's Deep would suit our needs well for location...or possibly somwehere similiarly placed on the other side of the Gap of Rohan?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-02-17 11:15am

Coyote wrote:There are a lot of bolt-action advantages but also the usual disadvantages: rate of fire against a massed enemy, and magazine capacity/reload time. Untrained people, unused to firearms in general (as many here are) will have a much easier time with a magazine to slide in...
.

After some basic training, we'll have them up to snuff on single shot.

OTOH, the fire discipline forced by bolt-action is nice, we'll not be piddling away ammo so quickly with panic bursts. If we want to go with bolt-action, then I have to say that the Mauser KAR-98K, the bolt-action that every other bolt-action tries to copy, is our best choice. Rugged, reliable, accurate, easy to train on and carry...

Pretty much what I alluded too, though the actual model will probably be as contested as much as what model of assualt rifles were.

That would mean altering the scenario somewhat-- our "primary load" would be the 8mm Mauser, unless we want "rechambered" '98s... Still, I'm dubious. Mabe some folks will go with this route but when orcs start coming over the barricades, even with half of them killed, we'll need to sling lead fast. I'd still take my AK, CAR-15, and Mossbrg as primaries...

Actually if you think of defense in depth, the men on the wall will have the bolt action rifles and will start to pick off orcs at 1000meters or greater and with automatic fire support from M2 gun nests. If, and I mean IF, the orcs breach the primary defense, then like I said in my original post, the support staff would be armed with the shotguns and the pistols and the rifle men would also have the pistols that would be more fitting in close quarters combat that the rifle, though the rifle itself would be a good club.

Not to mention that Helms Deep had a series of inner walls that the riflemen could fall back on and pick orcs off as they came over the first wall. Automatic fire has a way of making a man feel powerful, but it wastes ammo like a SOB. Disiplined fire and ease of maintanence and even the crude ability to replace the basic parts of the rifle would make it alot more effecient than more complicated weapons.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-17 11:15am

Ok, considering we need weapons that penetrate armour we can say that the 7.62 mm ammo is fixed as standard.
As for rifles, I trust Rob with his choice of the FAL, although we might reconsider the G3A3 or the GALIL.

Further thoughts on small arms?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 11:20am

To be honest I'm not overly fond of a rifle/club for close encounters with orcs...though solutions to that can be found locally....decent sword smiths dont seem to be in short supply in ME.
Pistols at close range may be effective, but....at point blank Urakhi with swords will be pretty nasty too....

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-02-17 11:24am

Keevan_Colton wrote: I agree that the mouth of the Isen and the lonley mountain are terrible places to be based, I'd say Helm's Deep would suit our needs well for location...or possibly somwehere similiarly placed on the other side of the Gap of Rohan?

Well I just don't like Helms Deep (no solid argument against it mind, just a personal dislike about the one fixed point. Why the Orcs didn't get above it and rain arrows down from the mountian is beyond me), and I've already given my case for the Gap of Rohan as a Locale. Additionally we're closer to the Shire, Lorien, Gondor and Isengard than either the Lonely Mountian and the Mouth of the Isen (and yes I know I erroneously called it the head of the Isen in some posts, but I meant the Mouth).

Get it set up and put a small town around it as Cammo, Deception and recruiting. Get the trade sorted and the info network started and then start our pushes for diplomacy and watching briefs on all the main players/nations.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-02-17 11:30am

Keevan_Colton wrote:To be honest I'm not overly fond of a rifle/club for close encounters with orcs...though solutions to that can be found locally....decent sword smiths dont seem to be in short supply in ME.
Pistols at close range may be effective, but....at point blank Urakhi with swords will be pretty nasty too....

Which is why I said that everyone needs to be trained in Swordsmanship and other weapons on top of the Rifles. When we are out and about in ME, we can't take Modern firearms out there with us (except in extreme or highly trained circumstances). Personally I prefer Staff or polearms to swords, but that in no way negates the need t learn them.

In Line with Knifes points, the Support staff will be taught on Small arms and knife use, with Swords and Arrows being at personal behest in thier own time.

As partial as I am to Bolt-action weapons I would prefer Semi-auto as the ability to hit at 1000m is mitigated by armour so I envision ranges of 600m as more likely and Semi-auto means we can up the tempo as they draw closer without disturbing the firing positions, plus magazines are larger meaning less reloads during firing. That though would be my only objection to Bolt-actions so it would be something to be hashed out between the Instructors rather than a massive sticking point.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 11:36am

Rob Wilson wrote: Which is why I said that everyone needs to be trained in Swordsmanship and other weapons on top of the Rifles. When we are out and about in ME, we can't take Modern firearms out there with us (except in extreme or highly trained circumstances). Personally I prefer Staff or polearms to swords, but that in no way negates the need t learn them.

Polearms in rank fighting are useful, individually, they take a lot of skill to fight with effectively....1 on 1 for most people a spear or sword would be of most use....a good standard might be combined walking staff/spear useful and practical in a fight, the extra reach of the spear over a sword is a lot more forgiving of a slight lack of perfection than the sword would be.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-02-17 11:36am

Rob Wilson wrote:the furthest we need to go is Lorien and it's closer to Rohan than the Lonely Mountain. We can get to both sides of the Misty Mountains without ever having to cross them and we have huge expanses around us for fields of fire.

Bugger, obviously the furthest our scouts might have to go is actually the Shire, and that is still closer to anywhere in Rohan (especially the Gap) than it is to the Lonely Mountain.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 11:38am

Rob Wilson wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:the furthest we need to go is Lorien and it's closer to Rohan than the Lonely Mountain. We can get to both sides of the Misty Mountains without ever having to cross them and we have huge expanses around us for fields of fire.
Bugger, obviously the furthest our scouts might have to go is actually the Shire, and that is still closer to anywhere in Rohan (especially the Gap) than it is to the Lonely Mountain.

Plus a direct line from the Lonley Mountain goes through a dense forest and over a mountain range....

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-02-17 11:39am

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: Which is why I said that everyone needs to be trained in Swordsmanship and other weapons on top of the Rifles. When we are out and about in ME, we can't take Modern firearms out there with us (except in extreme or highly trained circumstances). Personally I prefer Staff or polearms to swords, but that in no way negates the need t learn them.
Polearms in rank fighting are useful, individually, they take a lot of skill to fight with effectively....1 on 1 for most people a spear or sword would be of most use....a good standard might be combined walking staff/spear useful and practical in a fight, the extra reach of the spear over a sword is a lot more forgiving of a slight lack of perfection than the sword would be.

Pretty much where I was going, I can use a Quarterstaff real well and that fits the bill nicely (maybe a 6" iron banded/capped walking stick with a bracket that allows our Machete/Parang to be mounted if neccesary).

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-17 11:43am

Rob Wilson wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: Which is why I said that everyone needs to be trained in Swordsmanship and other weapons on top of the Rifles. When we are out and about in ME, we can't take Modern firearms out there with us (except in extreme or highly trained circumstances). Personally I prefer Staff or polearms to swords, but that in no way negates the need t learn them.
Polearms in rank fighting are useful, individually, they take a lot of skill to fight with effectively....1 on 1 for most people a spear or sword would be of most use....a good standard might be combined walking staff/spear useful and practical in a fight, the extra reach of the spear over a sword is a lot more forgiving of a slight lack of perfection than the sword would be.
Pretty much where I was going, I can use a Quarterstaff real well and that fits the bill nicely (maybe a 6" iron banded/capped walking stick with a bracket that allows our Machete/Parang to be mounted if neccesary).

Sounds reasonbly good, I'm never a huge fan of "lego" weapons as I tend to dub them, but for our purposes it might be best....I like my weapons as solid as I can get them...so it all comes down to exactly how the blade is attatched.
Proper spears though might cause us problems moving about in middle earth....appearing obviously armed could cause us some problems with the natives at times.....so staffs that can have bayonets fixed would be a compromise.