Iron man vs The Dark Knight thoughts

[Sarevok]

Why does not Iron Man get a tenth of the praise TDK got ? I think Iron Man was a far superior movie.

1) Iron Mans power felt real. If you had an advance suit of armor like Tony Stark you too could wreck an army by yourself. Your armor can withstand cannon shells. It can fly faster than sound. And its weapons include death rays that torch buildings, a point defense gun system, wrist mounted missiles that can one shot a tank and more. There is no question Stark was so powerful. In contrast Batman is only dangerous because writers make every badguy he goes up against blind, deaf, dumb and given worst aim ever. In real world Batman would be shot dead before his first night of crime fighting. In real world Stark would dominate even more with his advanced battle suit since there is no counter available to his technologies.

And the less said about Joker and Looney Tunes cartoon level of supervillainery the better. I swear ACME corporation exists in TDKverse and Joker worked for them. Nothing else could explain where he got all the time, resources and sheer crazy amount of luck to do what he did.

2 ) Tony Stark felt real ! He was a flesh and blood human being with feelings and emotions. He personally intervented in Afganistan with his battlesuit. After years of watching same nonsense from Iraq to North Korea on TV dont we all get a fantasy about that ? Batman had to deal with supervillains blowing up Gotham city and then another costumed supervillain who used cards. You can wrap up the 60s campiness in hundreds of millions of hollywood dollars but it does not even come close to the power-trip fantasy in real world feeling Iron man had.

3) TDK had that holier than thou Harvey Dent guy. I wanted to punch that guy. What did he ever do other than talk ? He did nothing but talk and everybody loved him for some reason.

4) Ironman did not angst over women. Batman did.

5) Ironman actually was a rather scrawny guy with a brilliant mind. Even then he had developed AI like Jarvis to help him. Thus he could do much work single handedly in short time. He also depends on his battlesuit so he does not need to lift weights and spend time in the gym. But how does Batman run his company ? He is a big, buff guy who spends whole nights awake. How long and when does he sleep ? When does he do company work or attend meetings ? When does he train physically at a level that makes Navy SEALS look like lazy ?

In addition why does not anyone track down the Batman ? Ironman had fucking F-22 Raptors come after him despite being a good guy. How does this Batman fellow manage to elude law enforcement ? Oh right thats because if the police in TDK was intelligent Batmans career end in jail or mental hospital.

[Darth Wong]

The funny thing about TDK is how so much of the plot revolves around his moral reluctance to kill (even to save life overall), whereas Iron Man kills dozens of people without flinching, because he is in a war-zone and he recognizes the necessity. If Batman thought that way, the entire story of TDK would have ended early, because he would have killed The Joker when he idiotically stood in the middle of the street daring Batman to run him over.

[Simon_Jester]

Artistically, I think Iron Man didn't get the praise The Dark Knight did because of characterization.

Iron Man felt like a flashy action movie to a lot of people. Downey played Stark as the manic guy who's blowing shit up and enjoying himself tremendously. The movie has a lot of loud, unapologetic explosions, characters painted in bright primary colors (literally in the case of the Iron Man suit), and a nice happy ending.

The Dark Knight was definitely an action movie, and there were a lot of explosions and gunfights as per action movie convention. But the characters were a bit deeper. They had a more compelling villain in the Heath Ledger Joker, who came out with a performance that put Bridges' performance as Stane to shame. They had more complexity, more competing loyalties. And, of course, the ending isn't all that happy.

Now, that doesn't necessarily make The Dark Knight a better movie. But I think it helps explain why it got a better critical reception.

[Darth Wong]

The Joker puts Obadiah Stane to shame? How? The Joker is the most cartoonish villain I've seen since Megatron, who was an actual cartoon. At least Obadiah Stane had comprehensible real-world motivations, even though he lost his shit when it became obvious that the house of cards was going to collapse on him (and that's not unheard-of either). The Joker is just evil because he enjoys being evil; since when is that a "deep" character?

[Simon_Jester]

The Joker puts Obadiah Stane to shame? How? The Joker is the most cartoonish villain I've seen since Megatron, who was an actual cartoon. At least Obadiah Stane had comprehensible real-world motivations, even though he lost his shit when it became obvious that the house of cards was going to collapse on him (and that's not unheard-of either). The Joker is just evil because he enjoys being evil; since when is that a "deep" character?

OK. I screwed up by even implying that the Joker is a deep character. You're right. He's not. Not deep, not believable.

The Joker is not believable in the sense of "yes, I might meet him tomorrow." So what? See, I didn't say the Joker puts Stane to shame. I said that Ledger as the Joker puts Bridges as Stane to shame. Ledger did a better job of the acting.

He started with a cartoon villain: a mad clown. How ridiculous is that? And he took that impossible character and put him as close to real life as possible. Which is still not very close, but close enough that the audience can imagine what being face to face with the Joker would really be like.

If you ran into the guy in real life, you wouldn't be laughing at how ridiculous he was. You don't laugh at a scarred-up lunatic playing with knives. You'd be wondering if he was about to give you a Chelsea grin. If he was rampaging around your city you wouldn't be thinking "what a clown!" You'd be thinking "Why the hell haven't the police caught him yet!" And you'd be afraid he was going to come after you next.

In universe, the Joker is terrifying, in a way that normal mob bosses with far more believable motives are not. Ledger managed to show why that's true. He dominated the scenes he was in, riveted the audience's attention, and made what could have been idiotic cheesy lines into very, very believable ones.

Now, Bridges did a decent job as Obadiah Stane, but it wasn't all that memorable. Stane was just another corrupt corporate executive, a breed we've seen before dozens of times and will see again dozens more. The Heath Ledger Joker is a whole different animal. People remember that one.

And that's why Ledger as the Joker puts Bridges as Stane to shame. Not because Ledger was playing a character with more believable motives, but because Ledger took an improbable, larger than life character and made it work, in the sense that he inspired the strong emotions in the audience that he was supposed to inspire.

[Darth Wong]

Not for me. I found the Joker to be boring, stupid, and utterly un-involving as a villain. I also found it absurdly obvious that all of his success was due to writer's fiat, since they basically created an Incompetence Field around him: everyone in his way magically became monstrously incompetent for long enough to make his plans succeed.

[Sarevok]

Maybe the entire movie took place in Jokers mind while he was being locked up at a mental hospital. That is the only way to rationalize the Joker. The only other possibility is that he has psychic ability to lower peoples IQ.

[Anguirus]

The Joker has never been a fully-realized character so much as just Batman's opposite number, or the symbol of the entrenched evil and madness in Gotham that Batman's trying to root out.

The Joker isn't deep, he's just an utter psychopath with the same "hypercompetence" as Batman, a sick sense of humor, and a "flair for the theatrical." He'll use any half-baked philosophical idea that pops into his head to justify his actions, which in itself is just something he uses to mess with people.

Anyway, Batman/Joker have unrealistic levels of competence to make their stories work, and Iron Man has a magic suit that makes his stories work. I find myself capable of enjoying either.

[Sarevok]

Ironmans suit can be explained using in universe physics. Batman and Jokers abilities can only be explained by psychic powers that cause terminal stupidity to everyone around them.

[Anguirus]

"In universe physics" = magic laser beams, magic power source, magic metal.

At least stupidity is a documented phenomenon.

[Crazedwraith]

In the end, I think the main differences is that Iron Man is a fun movie whereas TDK goes overboard with the grim dark message and pretensions that me might actually care what the main character's philosophy were.

Anecdotally, I saw both films twice in the cinema, I saw TDK twice because I had two separate groups of friends that wanted to see it, Iron Man I saw twice because I actually wanted to.

[Havok]

Why does not Iron Man get a tenth of the praise TDK got ? I think Iron Man was a far superior movie.

I think it was better, but not far superior.

1) Iron Mans power felt real. If you had an advance suit of armor like Tony Stark you too could wreck an army by yourself. Your armor can withstand cannon shells. It can fly faster than sound. And its weapons include death rays that torch buildings, a point defense gun system, wrist mounted missiles that can one shot a tank and more. There is no question Stark was so powerful. In contrast Batman is only dangerous because writers make every badguy he goes up against blind, deaf, dumb and given worst aim ever. In real world Batman would be shot dead before his first night of crime fighting. In real world Stark would dominate even more with his advanced battle suit since there is no counter available to his technologies.

You did catch the whole part about Batman's entire suit being bullet proof right? And the criminals he faces are hardly deaf, blind, dumb and have poor aim, they just can't see him and have no idea where he is coming from.

And the less said about Joker and Looney Tunes cartoon level of supervillainery the better. I swear ACME corporation exists in TDKverse and Joker worked for them. Nothing else could explain where he got all the time, resources and sheer crazy amount of luck to do what he did.

No comment.

2 ) Tony Stark felt real ! He was a flesh and blood human being with feelings and emotions. He personally intervented in Afganistan with his battlesuit. After years of watching same nonsense from Iraq to North Korea on TV dont we all get a fantasy about that ? Batman had to deal with supervillains blowing up Gotham city and then another costumed supervillain who used cards. You can wrap up the 60s campiness in hundreds of millions of hollywood dollars but it does not even come close to the power-trip fantasy in real world feeling Iron man had.

I would say that this has more to do with the original origin stories than the Batman taking anything from the 60's show.

3) TDK had that holier than thou Harvey Dent guy. I wanted to punch that guy. What did he ever do other than talk ? He did nothing but talk and everybody loved him for some reason.

You mean the DA that vowed to clean up crime in Gotham in complete disregard to his own well being. The DA that put every major criminal on trial all at once? The guy that single handedly disarmed an armed witness that attempted to kill him in court?

4) Ironman did not angst over women. Batman did.

I guess you missed the whole 'I love Pepper Potts, but can't close the deal' subplot huh? Stark and Wayne are actually very similar in this regard... They both use gorgeous women as a cover for who and what they really are while in their 'Playboy' personas and are not so secretly pinning after the closest woman to them.

5) Ironman actually was a rather scrawny guy with a brilliant mind. Even then he had developed AI like Jarvis to help him. Thus he could do much work single handedly in short time. He also depends on his battlesuit so he does not need to lift weights and spend time in the gym. But how does Batman run his company ? He is a big, buff guy who spends whole nights awake. How long and when does he sleep ? When does he do company work or attend meetings ? When does he train physically at a level that makes Navy SEALS look like lazy?

Jesus Christ, did you even watch Batman Begins or TDK? Wayne does NOT run his company. Lucious Fox, along with a board does. He sleeps during the fucking day, and in business meetings, again, things they actually showed in the movie.

In addition why does not anyone track down the Batman ? Ironman had fucking F-22 Raptors come after him despite being a good guy. How does this Batman fellow manage to elude law enforcement ? Oh right thats because if the police in TDK was intelligent Batmans career end in jail or mental hospital.

Holy fucking dog shit. You are a fucking imbecile. The police WORK WITH BATMAN IN TDK. They let him into the fucking interrogation room you fucking moron. He has free reign. Fuck. If you are just going to come in her and bash BB and TDK because you don't like Batman, just fucking do it. This false pretense of you ACTUALLY WATCHING THE MOVIE is goddamned annoying.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Not for me. I found the Joker to be boring, stupid, and utterly un-involving as a villain. I also found it absurdly obvious that all of his success was due to writer's fiat, since they basically created an Incompetence Field around him: everyone in his way magically became monstrously incompetent for long enough to make his plans succeed.

The very first time I watched the movie I felt this in the back of my head, and each time re-watching it it jumped out at me.
So many people talk in glowing words about the Joker in TDK because "How intricate and devious" his plans were" how he was able to outthink the mob and the police!" But as stated it all largely happens by Writers fiat.

In the beginning when some thugs bring "His body" to the one mob boss... Did NO ONE check the body first? Some idiots knock on the door with a bag and say "We got Joker" and the thugs outside don't even check before brining it in? They don't look for a knife wound, bullet hole, check breathing?
No in the world of TDK they bring it RIght in to the boss and WOOPS! Looks like the joker wasn't dead!

In the scene with Bruce at the party for Harvey Dent, Joker and his goons "Magically" show up in the elevator. No if this was somewhere else, we might forgive that, but this was freaking BRUCE WAYNES penthouse, You can't tell me it wasn't lined with guards metal detector "bat Scanners" auto traps or other such things. That the writers skip any pretense of the Joker actually having to "force" his way inside, and simply "Magically" show up in the Elevator is laughable.

The Hospital scene? Well its things like that that make 9/11 truthers think their little COnspiracy could have been done... You are telling me the Joker was able to wire up an entire metropolitan Hospital that seemed to have thousands of peoples in it at all times of the day, some how wire it up to explode without NO ONE noticing???

And lets not forget that he Also somehow sneaked into the Police Commissioners Private office and poisoned his private booze supply while at the same time planted a Bomb in the Car of a Major City Judge again with no one noticing.

I have to say I LIKED the concept of the new Joker, I liked a Villain who was in it for no one then himself, who was so twisted he didn't have motives other then "To see the world Burn" But the fact that virtually All of his greatest "crimes" came about without much explanation, without set up, but simply happened "By Magic" shows a big failure on the writters part.

[The Romulan Republic]

Why does not Iron Man get a tenth of the praise TDK got ? I think Iron Man was a far superior movie.

1) Iron Mans power felt real. If you had an advance suit of armor like Tony Stark you too could wreck an army by yourself. Your armor can withstand cannon shells. It can fly faster than sound. And its weapons include death rays that torch buildings, a point defense gun system, wrist mounted missiles that can one shot a tank and more. There is no question Stark was so powerful. In contrast Batman is only dangerous because writers make every badguy he goes up against blind, deaf, dumb and given worst aim ever. In real world Batman would be shot dead before his first night of crime fighting. In real world Stark would dominate even more with his advanced battle suit since there is no counter available to his technologies.

Except that building that suit in a cave with the resources he had, and without one of the terrorists all around him figuring out what he was doing, was utterly unbelievable, at least to me.

And the less said about Joker and Looney Tunes cartoon level of supervillainery the better. I swear ACME corporation exists in TDKverse and Joker worked for them. Nothing else could explain where he got all the time, resources and sheer crazy amount of luck to do what he did.

As Simon_Jester said, it boils down Ledger being an excellent actor, and (in my opinion) the Joker being fairly well-written dialog-wise, even if a lot of his plots were a bit far-fetched. I guess the film also taps into current events and the post-911 climate of fear by playing up the "terrorist" aspects of the Joker.

3) TDK had that holier than thou Harvey Dent guy. I wanted to punch that guy. What did he ever do other than talk ? He did nothing but talk and everybody loved him for some reason.

Havok made some good points on this. Also, Batman pins all his hopes on Dent because he has no choice. Dent's his best hope of ridding Gotham of crime and being able to be with the woman he loves. And not everyone likes Dent: Gordon has an edgy relationship at best with him throughout the film.

As for why Rachel likes him, I don't know, but since her other boyfriend is a vigilante who's fucked up beyond belief...

4) Ironman did not angst over women. Batman did.

He had plenty of reason for angst I'd say, given the circumstances.

In addition why does not anyone track down the Batman ? Ironman had fucking F-22 Raptors come after him despite being a good guy. How does this Batman fellow manage to elude law enforcement ? Oh right thats because if the police in TDK was intelligent Batmans career end in jail or mental hospital.

1. Remember the big plot point where the Commissioner was aiding and abetting the vigilante?

2. By the end of the film, they damn well are chasing Batman. As they were in Batman Begins, as well.

3. I find Batman evading the cops in one of the most lawless and corrupt cities in the world somewhat more plausible than Iron Man evading the fucking US military.

[Havok]

Hey Osama can do it without a power suit of armor or batarangs.

[CaptainChewbacca]

This video seems relevant now.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Why does not Iron Man get a tenth of the praise TDK got ? I think Iron Man was a far superior movie.

I think it was better, but not far superior.

My opinion is the other way round. I would not call either movie excellent, but TDK was somewhat better. it had more interesting roles for the actors and I agree with Ledger's Joker being superior to Bridges' Stone, although that was not necessarily just because of the actors - Ledger simply had a bigger role, and let's face it, Stone's rational motivations are exactly what make him less interesting than the psychopath Joker. Most evil is mundane and happens for a personal gain, but such characters do not traditionally belong to fantasy but rather to realistic crime stories or political thrillers.

A character does not have to be realistic in order to be interesting. There are no real life serial killers even remotely like Hannibal Lecter, but his complex nature and the delivery of Anthony Hopkins make him one of the most memorable villains. Joker is not quite that complex, but Ledger really made a great job playing him. The end result is that you can't be sure if he's evil, mad, deeply traumatized or possibly all of them.

I also found the visuals of TDK more appealing in general. They showed the touch of a visually gifted director, whereas Iron Man was merely competent in that regard. Chris Nolan has been on my radar since Memento and I expect still greater things from him, but I doubt Jon Favreau will ever make anything significantly better than the Iron Man. We'll see how Iron Man 2 turns out, but I don't see any reason for unbridled optimism.

[Guardsman Bass]

Not for me. I found the Joker to be boring, stupid, and utterly un-involving as a villain. I also found it absurdly obvious that all of his success was due to writer's fiat, since they basically created an Incompetence Field around him: everyone in his way magically became monstrously incompetent for long enough to make his plans succeed.

The very first time I watched the movie I felt this in the back of my head, and each time re-watching it it jumped out at me.
So many people talk in glowing words about the Joker in TDK because "How intricate and devious" his plans were" how he was able to outthink the mob and the police!" But as stated it all largely happens by Writers fiat.

Personally, I never thought he was supposed to be a particularly "deep" or "mastermind" character (it's obvious that he's getting plot help on his schemes). He's just an anarchic force of chaos in human form - the reason why I liked him was because that particular type of character presented such a challenge to Batman, he of the "will not kill under any circumstances" hero.

In the beginning when some thugs bring "His body" to the one mob boss... Did NO ONE check the body first? Some idiots knock on the door with a bag and say "We got Joker" and the thugs outside don't even check before brining it in? They don't look for a knife wound, bullet hole, check breathing?
No in the world of TDK they bring it RIght in to the boss and WOOPS! Looks like the joker wasn't dead!

I'll have to re-watch, but I remember that some of the guys present when he was "turned in" were already working for him. It's possible they got him in past security (which would also explain how he managed to sneak into that crime-boss meeting earlier in the movie).

In the scene with Bruce at the party for Harvey Dent, Joker and his goons "Magically" show up in the elevator. No if this was somewhere else, we might forgive that, but this was freaking BRUCE WAYNES penthouse, You can't tell me it wasn't lined with guards metal detector "bat Scanners" auto traps or other such things. That the writers skip any pretense of the Joker actually having to "force" his way inside, and simply "Magically" show up in the Elevator is laughable.

We don't see him actually getting into the tower before he appears on the elevator - how do you know he didn't force his way in, or use a disguise up until that point (there's a lot of people at the gala, with many coming and going).

The Hospital scene? Well its things like that that make 9/11 truthers think their little COnspiracy could have been done... You are telling me the Joker was able to wire up an entire metropolitan Hospital that seemed to have thousands of peoples in it at all times of the day, some how wire it up to explode without NO ONE noticing???

It stretches belief a bit, but remember that this was in a period when they were intimidating and killing cops, and just generally forcing the Gotham Police to try and be everywhere at once to secure the city. Plus, the Joker seems to have followers everywhere, and mob assistance later on.

And lets not forget that he Also somehow sneaked into the Police Commissioners Private office and poisoned his private booze supply while at the same time planted a Bomb in the Car of a Major City Judge again with no one noticing.

That stretched belief, yes.

I have to say I LIKED the concept of the new Joker, I liked a Villain who was in it for no one then himself, who was so twisted he didn't have motives other then "To see the world Burn" But the fact that virtually All of his greatest "crimes" came about without much explanation, without set up, but simply happened "By Magic" shows a big failure on the writters part.

I personally didn't care that much, mostly just because it was interesting watching the interplay between Batman, Harvey Dent, the Gotham Police, and the Joker. Like I said, the Joker seems almost more like chaos incarnate than a real human being, something designed almost specifically to fuck with the way Batman works.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hey Osama can do it without a power suit of armor or batarangs.

True enough.

[FaxModem1]

And lets not forget that he Also somehow sneaked into the Police Commissioners Private office and poisoned his private booze supply while at the same time planted a Bomb in the Car of a Major City Judge again with no one noticing.

Actually, he poisoned the glass. I don't know if that would make it easier or harder, but it definitely wasn't the booze.

[Crazedwraith]

As to the penthouse:
1) They have one of the bent cops with them, flashing his badge to get them into the party.
2) Bruce does know about it before hand. He choke holds Dent and stashes him in the safe room. (may be misremembering the sequence of events there though)

[Vastatosaurus Rex]

I too thought Iron Man was much better than The Dark Knight. TDK sucked. Its plot was incoherent, and Heath Ledger's acting was terrible (Jack Nicholson's Joker in the old Tim Burton Batman was much better).

[The Romulan Republic]

And lets not forget that he Also somehow sneaked into the Police Commissioners Private office and poisoned his private booze supply while at the same time planted a Bomb in the Car of a Major City Judge again with no one noticing.

Actually, he poisoned the glass. I don't know if that would make it easier or harder, but it definitely wasn't the booze.

Also, its not like he personally had to do both of these at the same time as the above quote appears to imply. This was after he basically had unlimited Mob support to draw on.

[Jim Raynor]

I liked both movies, and I think that it's important to keep perspective. Iron Man was by no means ignored by critics and audiences. It has a 93% rating at Rotten Tomatoes, made a shitload of money, and instantly turned Robert Downey Jr. from a troubled hasbeen into an A-list star. The general consensus is that it was an excellent movie. Iron Man 2 is set to be a huge hit this year.

I think it didn't get much award consideration because it was a simple movie popcorn movie with no pretensions of being extremely dramatic or profound. Which is fine by me; a lot of award-winning movies are boring and pretentious anyway. People just recognized Iron Man for what it was: a light-hearted, kickass action movie with no realistic chances of winning anything. Although RDJ's acting was awesome; ironically he got nominated for an Oscar that year for an even goofier role in Tropic Thunder.

The Dark Knight also brought the action and visuals, but also more dramatic so it could draw people in. The movie's serious tone automatically gave it more cred with the critics and the Academy. Although not nearly as much as the fanboys hoped for and initially thought it got; the movie wasn't nominated for any Oscars other than one for Ledger as Best Supporting Actor, and a bunch of inglorious technical awards. The serious tone and harsher violence made for a more intense experience for a lot of people. Also, TDK was probably helped by the mystique of Ledger's death, as well as being the sequel to a well-regarded movie. Recent blockbuster sequels have tended to do very well at the box office, regardless of the movie itself.

Regarding the Joker, I think he's far easier to accept if you ignore the stupid fanboy wanking over what an amazingly complex mastermind he is, who's five steps ahead of everyone else and can line up multiple events with perfection. The way I saw him, and the way the movie itself portrayed him as, was a guy who just doesn't give a shit about anything including himself. He dared Batman to run him over, and he jeopardized himself by putting a gun in Harvey Dent's hand. In his final battle he isolated himself at the top of a building with no way out, even laughing as he almost fell to his death. The movie made it clear that he could have very well died at any of these points. He has no real goal or ambition, other than to inflict suffering on people for the laughs. So don't see him as a godlike manipulator, but as someone who's recklessly bold and goes with the flow, while also having plenty of help from the mob as well as corrupt police officers helping him from the inside (both canon in the movies).

For example,I don't see his prison break as one perfectly coordinated and needlessly complicated scheme, but as separate plans that could have been pulled off independently of each other. He failed to get Dent, and just happened not to die under the wheels of Batman's motorcycle. But the mob was going to kidnap Rachel and Dent even if he rotted in jail, just in case that happened. The bomb sewn inside his mentally-challenged henchman would have been "funny" (HAHA retard got blown up) even if it didn't do anything to help him. Turning the tables on that one cop who was watching him wasn't perfect emotional manipulation, but just getting the guy pissed by being a huge dick before physically overpowering him. That's how I choose to interpret things, so that I can enjoy the movie.

And oh yeah, the Joker gets lucky too and his opponents are clearly less capable than he is. I won't deny that. In my personal opinion that's OK, because it's fun to see extremely capable heroes and villains, who are extremely noble or extremely evil, and can get away with things that you can't do in the real world. Escapist fantasy.

[Darth Wong]

Extremely capable villains and heroes aren't too annoying. However, TDK was not an example of that. It was an example of everyone around these two individuals becoming monumentally incompetent whenever they're around.