Systems Alliance vs. Pre-Wolf 359 UFP

[Stargazer]

At the time of "Q Who", Q decides one humanity to mess around with isn't enough. So he teleports the Systems Alliance from Mass Efect and the UFP to neighbor each other, and fills the them with an insatiable need to defeat each other. Who wins? Q also modifies the Alliance's kinetic barriers to defend against phasers and photon torpedo radiation.

[Batman]

The Systems Alliance being from...? Hard as it may be for you to believe not everybody here has played every SciFi game in existence nor read every SciFi novel

[Stargazer]

Sorry, fixed.

[adam_grif]

The Systems Alliance being from...? Hard as it may be for you to believe not everybody here has played every SciFi game in existence nor read every SciFi novel

Mass Effect. It consists of Earth, a few dozen minor colonies, a very small number of major colonies, and a bunch of orbital production facilities. The fleet consists of 8 dreadnoughts, a large-but-unstated number of Cruisers and Frigates, and a small-but-unstated number of Carriers.

At the time of "Q Who", Q decides one humanity to mess around with isn't enough. So he teleports the Systems Alliance from Mass Efect and the UFP to neighbor each other, and fills the them with an insatiable need to defeat each other. Who wins? Q also modifies the Alliance's kinetic barriers to defend against phasers and photon torpedo radiation.

We have no idea of shield strength, and magically making them resistant to phasers is silly because that's totally counter to their mode of operation. We can't possibly hope to work out whether they could stop phasers without more specific criterion other than "they can interact with them".

MEverse Kinetic Barriers stop low double digit KT level firepower for the Dreadnought sized vessels. Smaller ships have unknown-but-lower shield strength. I have no clue what UFP warping can do for velocity, but ME vessels can do 12 ly/day. They can cross the galaxy near-instantaneously with the use of Mass Relays, but aside from this are not very fast.

Are there Mass Relays in this crossover? Alliance military doctrine is built around defending key mass relays and sitting all of its forces around them ready to strike out against distant aggressors if a colony is attacked. They keep only token garrison forces in their holdings, and don't have the military strength to defend all of their worlds simultaneously.

By contrast, UFP style FTL is fly-anywhere-do-anything, and can take advantage of MEverse's inadequate tactics for a galaxy not dominated by Mass Relays.

Given double digit KT resiliance for ME shields, they will get curb stomped by the UFP, all they have to do is fire a photorp or two to obliterate any Systems Alliance vessel. The UFP is also larger than the SA.

[Stargazer]

Alliance territory keeps its layout, mass relays and all.

Alright, let's say that kinetic barriers keep their nature, but not what the codex would have us believe. Collector heavy weapons, and likely their ship weapons, are particle beams. However, Shepard's shields hold somewhat against the particle beams, and the Normandy SR-1's shields interacted with the beam, in that they were quickly taken down, rather than being ignored altogether. Tali also says that the Normandy SR-2's shield upgrades would give them a chance against the Collector ship's weapons. Also telling is this line from the in-game description of the Collector particle beam heavy weapon:

"The amount of energy required to create a destructive beam is several orders of magnitude more than the amount needed to launch a high-velocity projectile via a mass effect field."

This could be construed as, whereas you need a 16.2 terajoule mass accelerator in order to threaten a dreadnought, you need a 16.2 exajoule particle beam to threaten it.

As for photorps, GARDIAN lasers could be an effective deterrent to them.

[open_sketchbook]

Photon Torpedos are shielded though, are they not?

[Batman]

Photon Torpedos are shielded though, are they not?

Err-since when? I can't recall a single time a photorp was ever shot at, leave alone hit.

[adam_grif]

They can also beam around people with impunity unless you're making a special "Kinetic Barriers block transporters" rule. All they are is basically anti-gravity, so I don't really get why they would.

As for photorps, GARDIAN lasers could be an effective deterrent to them.

Not at the ridiculously close ranges that both ME and Trek fights wars at

I don't see even monsters like the Destiny Ascensions being able to do much against a Trek craft's shields (unless it's like a shuttle maybe), so there definitely shouldn't be any issues with them closing to those distances. Actually it would be beneficial for them, since Dreadnoughts are horrible at close ranges since they have to get the whole craft to align, and there's an awful lot of it to turn. They're also the least maneuverable of MEverse craft.

I don't see how this can be anything other than a slaughter. They beam up some MEverse people and interrogate them until they tell them how to use the Mass Relays, then they wipe the others out without a significant challenge.

[Stargazer]

Hey, random stuff like minerals blocks transporter beams, so kinetic barriers doing so wouldn't be surprising.

What about Trek shields suddenly makes them immune to double-digit kiloton kinetic impacts? And if Trek ships close to knife-fight range a Kilimanjaro class dreadnought always has its 78 broadside guns on each side to resort to.

[Batman]

I thought this was about ME kinetic shields being able to block PHASERS?) When did TRANSPORTER beams come into it?

[Sarevok]

Hey, random stuff like minerals blocks transporter beams, so kinetic barriers doing so wouldn't be surprising."

Depends on strength of technobabble. Unfortunately for ME star trek is the king of technobabble driven scifi. Besides there is nothing in ME that resembles the natural conditions that block transporter or purpose built transporter jammers found in trek. Different universes with different set of technobabble you see.

[adam_grif]

Hey, random stuff like minerals blocks transporter beams, so kinetic barriers doing so wouldn't be surprising.

What about Trek shields suddenly makes them immune to double-digit kiloton kinetic impacts? And if Trek ships close to knife-fight range a Kilimanjaro class dreadnought always has its 78 broadside guns on each side to resort to.

As an upper limit, a constitution class ship took the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes simultaneously without failing. A photorp is double digit MT, so it's very unlikely that anything the Systems Alliance can field will scratch these ships, unless for some reason we're assuming that Trek Shields can't block KE weapons very well.

[Stargazer]

Wait, are you bringing up a TOS feat, then? Are you going to start arguing that since TOS Enterprise jumped all over the galaxy at times, ST ships can keep up with SW ships? TOS feats can't apply to TNG. There are continuity errors all over the place.

As for "double-digit megaton", that comes from the TM, which has never been confirmed to be, or intended as, canon. An in-show example of photon torpedo strength, elaborated here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... me=Pegasus would indicate a significantly less impressive triple-digit kiloton yield, not a great deal stronger than a dreadnought's main gun.

[Sarevok]

As an upper limit, a constitution class ship took the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes simultaneously without failing. A photorp is double digit MT, so it's very unlikely that anything the Systems Alliance can field will scratch these ships, unless for some reason we're assuming that Trek Shields can't block KE weapons very well.

Where ???

90 Photon torpedoes striking at once would turn even a Sovereign class starship into a massive fireball. Just five to six photons is enough to heavily damage or destroy a midsized warship like a Galor. There is no starship in any Alpha Quadrant empires fleet that can take that many photon torps. Only the Borg Cube or maybe Dominion super dreadnoughts have a chance of withstanding such a devastating salvo,

[Sarevok]

As for "double-digit megaton", that comes from the TM, which has never been confirmed to be, or intended as, canon. An in-show example of photon torpedo strength, elaborated here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... me=Pegasus would indicate a significantly less impressive triple-digit kiloton yield, not a great deal stronger than a dreadnought's main gun.

On the other hand you have the infamous orbital bombardment scene from "The Die is Cast". While definitely not up to ludicrous multi teraton levels some trektards claim from that scene photon torpedoes still have to be in the megaton range at least.

[Lord of the Abyss]

As an upper limit, a constitution class ship took the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes simultaneously without failing. A photorp is double digit MT, so it's very unlikely that anything the Systems Alliance can field will scratch these ships, unless for some reason we're assuming that Trek Shields can't block KE weapons very well.

Where ???

That was the yield given for the weaponry the NOMAD probe was using against Enterprise.

[Sarevok]

Ah. Maybe it was hyperbole since nothing in visual combat scenes match that statements. Only the Borg cube showed sufficient shielding to survive that level of firepower. Most AQ ships explode after a few torpedo hits. Photon torpedoes are after the most powerful starship weapons in trek.

[Batman]

On the other hand you have the infamous orbital bombardment scene from "The Die is Cast". While definitely not up to ludicrous multi teraton levels some trektards claim from that scene photon torpedoes still have to be in the megaton range at least.

Despite the fact that the visuals COMPLETELY FAIL to match with that, what with allegedly MT range in-atmosphere fireballs dissipating in a manner of SECONDS.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Ah. Maybe it was hyperbole since nothing in visual combat scenes match that statements. Only the Borg cube showed sufficient shielding to survive that level of firepower. Most AQ ships explode after a few torpedo hits. Photon torpedoes are after the most powerful starship weapons in trek.

It was the supposedly-meticulous Spock giving out the number as I recall. Consistency, thy name is not Star Trek, much as I like it. Forced to handwave some explanation, I'd say something like the energy bolts must have lost most of their energy at that distance, or that the shields are better at resisting bolts of energy rather than explosions ( much better with those numbers ). But yeah, it's pretty obvious someone wasn't thinking about the implications; logically, a 90-torpedo equivalent attack should have obliterated the ship in one hit easily.

[adam_grif]

Wait, are you bringing up a TOS feat, then? Are you going to start arguing that since TOS Enterprise jumped all over the galaxy at times, ST ships can keep up with SW ships? TOS feats can't apply to TNG. There are continuity errors all over the place.

As for "double-digit megaton", that comes from the TM, which has never been confirmed to be, or intended as, canon. An in-show example of photon torpedo strength, elaborated here: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... me=Pegasus would indicate a significantly less impressive triple-digit kiloton yield, not a great deal stronger than a dreadnought's main gun.

If we take the ~100 KT figure as gospel, that still puts the average ST ship as being on par with or more powerful than a Dreadnought, and the UFP has an awful lot of ships with this level of firepower and endurance. If photorps detonate when they strike the wall-like kinetic barriers, this puts them as detonating a few meters away from the hull (the ME fields extend further than that, but diminish rapidly with distance). Photons and similar sorts of things don't interact with Kinetic Barriers, any MEverse ship is out of commission after 1 torp.

If photorps are "significantly more powerful" than phasers and we assume phasers interact with shields, this probably puts them on par with perhaps a cruiser main gun level firepower.

[Batman]

When, exactly, did TOS ships jump 'all over the galaxy'? If anything TOS was even MORE reluctant than TNG about giving worthwhile numbers.

[adam_grif]

When, exactly, did TOS ships jump 'all over the galaxy'? If anything TOS was even MORE reluctant than TNG about giving worthwhile numbers.

Not sure about TOS, but if we're counting movies, we have ST5's silliness in the "galactic core" or what have you.

[Mayabird]

There was no ST5. Kirk went on a camping trip to try to recall his lost youth and after a dinner of whiskey baked beans he had the craziest dream where everybody was there and there were Klingons and everyone was mean to him and there was this crappy desert planet and a cat stripper with three boobs and then he fought God and won.

[Stargazer]

If we take the ~100 KT figure as gospel, that still puts the average ST ship as being on par with or more powerful than a Dreadnought, and the UFP has an awful lot of ships with this level of firepower and endurance. If photorps detonate when they strike the wall-like kinetic barriers, this puts them as detonating a few meters away from the hull (the ME fields extend further than that, but diminish rapidly with distance). Photons and similar sorts of things don't interact with Kinetic Barriers, any MEverse ship is out of commission after 1 torp.

If photorps are "significantly more powerful" than phasers and we assume phasers interact with shields, this probably puts them on par with perhaps a cruiser main gun level firepower.

Except they won't strike the kinetic barriers, because of GARDIAN.

[OmegaChief]

Wasn't there a particullary silly episode of Voyager where they did shoot one of thier own torpedoes to make an even bigger explosion or somthing?