Reapers and Collectors vs. UNSC

[Nephtys]

A few minor things. How are we assuming that Hackett's fleet consists only of cruisers? We only saw models that looked like Alliance cruisers, yes. But it was allegedly 'The Arcturus Fleet', which is their largest concentration. An alliance Dread could look quite similar.

The Destiny Ascension engaged Soverign, and can explain why EDI says Sov is immune to a dreadnaught's main weapon. It was said to be the largest and most powerful dreadnaught in Citadel Space. That doesn't seem unreasonable then if that was the basis for EDI's statement.

Lasers are used in MEverse, adam_grif. That one human colony you visit in ME2 has large surface-space laser towers being installed when the Collectors show up. Sure, the FX shows them shooting out silly tracer-bolts, but they do seem to work rather well, forcing the ship to take off after a short bombardment.

The Codex mentions lasers are limited by a very short effective range, and fast heat-buildup. This doesn't work given ME visuals, where all battles shown so far have taken place within a few kilometers, but that's 'artistic license', I guess. Like the lame fireball hadoken tossing battle at the Citadel.

[adam_grif]

A few minor things. How are we assuming that Hackett's fleet consists only of cruisers? We only saw models that looked like Alliance cruisers, yes. But it was allegedly 'The Arcturus Fleet', which is their largest concentration. An alliance Dread could look quite similar.

The fleet that drops out on top of the Citadel consists only of Cruisers and smaller craft. The large "cruisers" were originally supposed to be Dreadnoughts, and used the "Dreadnought" model, however since the Alliance was only supposed to have 7 at the time, and there were ~20 there, they ret-conned them all to be Cruisers. There are no larger craft shown, nor any mentioned in the battle of the Citadel anywhere. The only Dreadnought confirmed to have participated is the Destiny Ascension.

The Destiny Ascension engaged Soverign, and can explain why EDI says Sov is immune to a dreadnaught's main weapon. It was said to be the largest and most powerful dreadnaught in Citadel Space. That doesn't seem unreasonable then if that was the basis for EDI's statement.

It was engaging Geth ships, and we never saw it fire it's main guns on anything at all. This is unsurprising given the close range fighting that took place, since they need to align their whole ship to get a shot off. The ship blows up from Geth or escapes with the council, it was not present in any of the shots where 5th fleet was bombarding Sovereign.

Lasers are used in MEverse, adam_grif. That one human colony you visit in ME2 has large surface-space laser towers being installed when the Collectors show up. Sure, the FX shows them shooting out silly tracer-bolts, but they do seem to work rather well, forcing the ship to take off after a short bombardment.

They're used for Point Defense and anti-fighter duties. They claim that the system on the ground was a "GARDIAN" but don't specify that it's a "GARDIAN laser". It stands for:

General ARea Defence Integration Anti-spacecraft Network

It is not necessarily lasers, and could simply be a network of mass accelerators. Indeed, that's exactly what we see in cut-scenes. We also see the slugs getting stopped by the barriers on the the Collector ship (they appear to "explode" before they strike the vessel).

The Codex mentions lasers are limited by a very short effective range, and fast heat-buildup. This doesn't work given ME visuals, where all battles shown so far have taken place within a few kilometers, but that's 'artistic license', I guess. Like the lame fireball hadoken tossing battle at the Citadel.

The art department and the people writing the codex aren't on speaking terms, judging by the cutscenes.

Lasers have shorter range due to diffraction, and wear out faster. One ship may have lasers that can severely damage an enemy ship, but they'll be torn up by the enemy's mass accelerators before they get in range.

The effective range on mass accelerator weapons is given by the velocity of the slug and the ability of the target to jink. The fastest slugs we've been given figures on go at 0.013c, which, while quite impressive for a railgun, isn't really fast enough to compete with a laser weapon. The "it takes one second from firing to hitting" range for this is ~3900 kilometers, whereas it's ~300,000 for a laser. Yes I know, diffraction and so on, a light-second is not a realistic range for killing something. But at 15,000 km or so, the laser practically can't miss and the dreadnought main gun will not be landing any blows, because it's a dumb shell that takes 3.8 seconds of transit time, which to a maneuvering frigate is an eternity.

I can appreciate small PD lasers not being that great, but if you replaced the axial mass accelerator entirely with one big laser, it's by no means implausible.


*anticipates getting corrected on all counts by someone with a physics degree*

[Balrog]

Actually, yes. When Sovereign jumps in through a mass relay, what's the first thing the commander of the Destiny Ascension orders? Close the Citadel. Which they can't, because Saren was already inside.

You do realize they were already expecting Sovereign at that point, no? How exactly are they to do this when he shows up out of the blue with no warning? I find it hard to imagine, considering just how disruptive it would be to station operation, to have the whole thing go with just the press of a big red button. Never mind time wasted wonder what the hell Sovereign is, getting someone of authority to try to answer that question, attempting communication with it, et cetera, as it come barreling right towards them.

All the ships in the fleet are Alliance cruisers, identified by the ship model you get in Mass Effect 2.

Very well then.

Your point?

That even without Dreadnoughts, it still would've been possible to dump enough firepower into Sovereign.

It means that double-digit kiloton fire is worthless against Reaper barriers, and triple-digit kiloton as well. Megaton-level fire does not fall under "dreadnought fire". And the Alliance only had six dreadnoughts at the time, so even if they had all of them at the battle it likely wouldn't make much of a difference.

That doesn't answer the question, how much Dreadnought fire is worthless? Is it one Dreadnought firing through half its ammo? All of it? Is it ten Dreadnoughts firing everything? A hundred all at once?

The Illusive Man never gave the idea that the weapon killed the Reaper in one shot. Only that it killed the Reaper, which is what Shepard found hard to believe.

I thought he did. Anyways, it would still seem incredible on its own, for a single weapon to kill a Reaper, given how much it took at the battle to accomplish that.

"Cored the ship in a single shot"- yeah, let's forget that the whole fleet was still firing on Sovereign. This whole sequence happened when the barriers were down. The barriers are likely what minimized the damage from the weapon.

Oh, now it matters that there's a fleet there shooting at him But no, it wasn't even that the spot Normandy punched through had been weakened beforehand. And the fact that it went right through without the barriers does not speak too highly of Sovereign's armoring and structure. Making even less likely it took this super-gun shot head-on, since obviously the shot overloaded its barriers, yet left it in recognizable and functional shape. A glancing blow however would make more sense in light of all this evidence.

As adam_grif said, the planet was actually modeled after the Valles Marineris on Mars. The fact that it curves is probably just an oversight on the developer's part

Too bad, because it still doesn't explain in-universe how this straight shot apparently had a curving trajectory. Unless the size and shape of the Klendagon canyon is also the result of erosion, although that would kinda take wind out of this "zomg they created this huge canyon in one shot!" thing.

The Council made it pretty clear to him that they weren't giving him more credit than they thought he was due before the attack on the Citadel. If the fleet was solely responsible for destroying Sovereign, they would have gotten the credit.

Because the fleet didn't track Saren across the galaxy, didn't figure out that there were Reapers and they were coming back, didn't figure out what the Conduit is, et cetera. Lots of people have been made heroes of a particular battle without physically being the one who killed everyone else on the other side.

You don't have any problem questioning Sovereign's intelligence elsewhere.

Yes, because objectively he's done some stupid things, but if he wasn't Impervious Sovereign bringing along the fleet would actually make sense. See, I actually like Mass Effect, in part because I thought the story and setting seemed consistent, well thought-out, and interesting. And while my opinion in that regard has been lessened of late, I would rather not willingly pile even more stupidity upon the game, just for an argument that neither requires it nor is proved by it.

[Night_stalker]

in regards to the Soverign vs DA battle, I would have to say that the Turian Councilor mentioned that the fleet was centered around the Relays leading into the system, IE at the outer limts, a god distance away. thus the majority of the Geth fleet jumped in behind them, where they were able to rip apart the rear guard, then focus on the outlying units, which were probably the bulk of the fleet. Not to mention the fact that there must have been some serious Electronic warfare going on in the background, IE Sensor jamming and the like.

[adam_grif]

That was another cutscene root-up. The fleet was supposed to be right there when they jumped out, except they weren't, the entire Citadel fleet was basically in front of the Citadel, nowhere near the relay. There's absolutely no indication that the Geth fleet jumped in "behind" anything.

[Night_stalker]

True, but I was just stating a fact. In addition, why is it we don't see more than 1 dreadnought at the battle? Wouldn't the fleet have assigned a chunk of them there permanetly?

[Stargazer]

You do realize they were already expecting Sovereign at that point, no? How exactly are they to do this when he shows up out of the blue with no warning? I find it hard to imagine, considering just how disruptive it would be to station operation, to have the whole thing go with just the press of a big red button. Never mind time wasted wonder what the hell Sovereign is, getting someone of authority to try to answer that question, attempting communication with it, et cetera, as it come barreling right towards them.

It still shows they can close the Citadel on a moment's notice, and that would likely be the fleet's reaction if Sovereign came in guns blazing.

Really, if a giant 2-kilometer ship that looks like a bug jumps in, would you treat it the same as a random small freighter coming through, when you're protecting the most important station and governing body in the galaxy? Or are you assuming incompetence on the part of the Citadel fleet in order to claim incompetence on the part of Sovereign?

That even without Dreadnoughts, it still would've been possible to dump enough firepower into Sovereign.

Now prove it.

That doesn't answer the question, how much Dreadnought fire is worthless? Is it one Dreadnought firing through half its ammo? All of it? Is it ten Dreadnoughts firing everything? A hundred all at once?

Why does this matter? We have a lower limit. The derelict reaper gives the upper limit.

I thought he did. Anyways, it would still seem incredible on its own, for a single weapon to kill a Reaper, given how much it took at the battle to accomplish that.

Shepard's disbelief comes after TIM tells Shepard that the weapon made the Great Rift on Klendagon.

Oh, now it matters that there's a fleet there shooting at him But no, it wasn't even that the spot Normandy punched through had been weakened beforehand. And the fact that it went right through without the barriers does not speak too highly of Sovereign's armoring and structure. Making even less likely it took this super-gun shot head-on, since obviously the shot overloaded its barriers, yet left it in recognizable and functional shape. A glancing blow however would make more sense in light of all this evidence.

A glancing blow would still need to go through the if it's going to do any damage by hitting the Reaper's hull. I don't see how a "glancing blow" would make a difference in that regard.

Too bad, because it still doesn't explain in-universe how this straight shot apparently had a curving trajectory. Unless the size and shape of the Klendagon canyon is also the result of erosion, although that would kinda take wind out of this "zomg they created this huge canyon in one shot!" thing.

It's a visual inconsistency, but the point is that it is a canon fact that the weapon made a canyon that size.

Because the fleet didn't track Saren across the galaxy, didn't figure out that there were Reapers and they were coming back, didn't figure out what the Conduit is, et cetera. Lots of people have been made heroes of a particular battle without physically being the one who killed everyone else on the other side.

There's a difference between playing a part in a battle and actually winning a battle.

They're used for Point Defense and anti-fighter duties. They claim that the system on the ground was a "GARDIAN" but don't specify that it's a "GARDIAN laser". It stands for:

General ARea Defence Integration Anti-spacecraft Network

It is not necessarily lasers, and could simply be a network of mass accelerators. Indeed, that's exactly what we see in cut-scenes. We also see the slugs getting stopped by the barriers on the the Collector ship (they appear to "explode" before they strike the vessel).

The guy you talk to on Horizon specifically says they're lasers when you ask him about the towers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yranmiwby0

3:48

[adam_grif]

The guy you talk to on Horizon specifically says they're lasers when you ask him about the towers.

Oh god this is so fucking stupid. But they can't have been lasers, because they're firing pew pew projectiles, get stopped by kinetic barriers, and the codex outright says barriers don't do anything to stop radiation. The thing we saw firing on the ship was a gun. Either the system was a system of MA weapons, or it had both MA and lasers and all we saw was the MA weapons.

[Stargazer]

Hey, it's Collector tech. They have beam weapons, so it's not unthinkable that they have shields that stop lasers, not just kinetic barriers. Or the shields appearing is just the lasers interacting with-and passing through- the barriers.

[adam_grif]

You think clearly non-lightspeed glowy bolts fired out of something that looks like an in-universe railgun exploding before they hit the surface of the ship is indicative that it's a laser interacting with but passing through the barriers

[Stargazer]

...

Ah fuck it, the writers and the art designers just can't get their shit straight. I defer to the writers.

[adam_grif]

I know man, I know.

Hey guys,

So we were going over your story boards for the cutscenes, and I can't help but notice you had the defense towers on Horizon be some kind of gun, firing glowy bolts. They're actually lasers, so they shouldn't be doing that at all. They should be totally invisible, you just have to show them making scorch marks on the collector ship. Can you guys fix that up before you start working on the cutscene please?

Dear Codex Writers,

No. And if we get one more letter from you fucking nerds complaining about something, I'm going to send security down to give you another beating.

[Balrog]

Took your time

It still shows they can close the Citadel on a moment's notice, and that would likely be the fleet's reaction if Sovereign came in guns blazing.

Yes, they can get it closed relatively quickly, when they're expecting him. Nor was this the instantaneous shutting you seem to be implying. Now, unless you're saying that the Citadel keeps a fully-manned fleet on constant stand-by in the case of an OCP, with orders to shoot first and ask question later for any First Contact situation, and have the station kept on a hair-trigger to close at a moment's notice, then the plan of "show up without warning and run" is going to work fine.

Now prove it.

Prove what? Unless you now don't agree that enough Disruptor torpedoes and broadside guns could make up for lacking in Dreadnought main guns.

Why does this matter? We have a lower limit.

*sigh* No we don't. We're trying to find the lower limit. Simply saying "a Dreadnought's main gun is useless" is itself a useless statement, because at some point a Dreadnought firing enough shots, or enough Dreadnoughts firing together, will get through the barriers, otherwise you're suggesting a no limits fallacy.

Shepard's disbelief comes after TIM tells Shepard that the weapon made the Great Rift on Klendagon.

That's not what you said:

B. When TIM tells Shepard of a weapon that brought down a Reaper, Shepard responds with skepticism that anything could bring down a Reaper through brute force, referencing how Sovereign was kicking the Citadel and Alliance fleets' asses. He wouldn't say this if it was the Alliance fleet responsible for bringing down Sovereign.

Emphasis added. Now either you were/are lying, or you were wrong, in which case the exact dialogue would help out in this situation.

A glancing blow would still need to go through the if it's going to do any damage by hitting the Reaper's hull. I don't see how a "glancing blow" would make a difference in that regard.

Because a glancing blow isn't hitting the target with the full force of a head-on impact, but can still impart enough energy to cause damage to the target. And considering Sovereign had a single shot from the Normandy go clean through it when its barriers went down, it's highly doubtful it would survive in the condition it was left in after a head-on collision as powerful as claimed.

It's a visual inconsistency, but the point is that it is a canon fact that the weapon made a canyon that size.

So ignore evidence saying otherwise and stick to your guns is the plan? Because that canyon is as big as it is precisely and only because of the weapon fired at it, no other factor played a part of its shaping over thousands of years?

There's a difference between playing a part in a battle and actually winning a battle.

Yes, and he gets the credit because he did the leg work.

[adam_grif]

no other factor played a part of its shaping over thousands of years?

37 million years, actually.

[Night_stalker]

True, but the Citadel measures out at 44.7 Km
long. It can't be expected to shut instantly. A 7.11 billion metric ton station just can't close that fast! It's physically impossible, and regarding the GARDIAN defenses, you're telling me that weapons tech can't evolve that fast?

[Nephtys]

True, but the Citadel measures out at 44.7 Km
long. It can't be expected to shut instantly. A 7.11 billion metric ton station just can't close that fast! It's physically impossible, and regarding the GARDIAN defenses, you're telling me that weapons tech can't evolve that fast?

Except it may well not 'effectively' be 7.11 billion metric tonnes, because every single element of the game's universe is based around mass manipulation. I don't have the video, but I'm sure you can time how long it takes for the arms to close.

And yep, weapons tech can't advance that quickly. Physical restrictions still apply. No amount of will is going to change the fact that Laser X requires materials and technology that may be unobtainable by in-universe physics. This is further reinforced by the technological stagnation of the 'current' Citadel civilization, and prior ones at about the same tech level.

As to the Citadel closing quickly, I can see that happening. They must have legions of air traffic controller analogues. The instant an 'unknown super-dreadnought' appears on their radar, they're going to close the hell out of the station and ask questions later. Battleships don't just appear for no reason.

[Stargazer]

Ok, I'm going to resign from this discussion, but I just want to clear one thing up:

Shepard's disbelief comes after TIM tells Shepard that the weapon made the Great Rift on Klendagon.

That's not what you said:

B. When TIM tells Shepard of a weapon that brought down a Reaper, Shepard responds with skepticism that anything could bring down a Reaper through brute force, referencing how Sovereign was kicking the Citadel and Alliance fleets' asses. He wouldn't say this if it was the Alliance fleet responsible for bringing down Sovereign.

Emphasis added. Now either you were/are lying, or you were wrong, in which case the exact dialogue would help out in this situation.

Yeah, it goes in this order: TIM says the Great Rift was made by a mass accelerator weapon. TIM says its target was a Reaper. Shepard expresses disbelief that anything could kill a Reaper. I wasn't lying or incorrect about either statement.

[Teleros]

Aside from laser "short ranges" being measured, from what I've read here, in ranges far in excess of most ME space combat*, that still doesn't explain why they don't have something like missiles with bomb-pumped X-Ray lasers or similar (or even remote-operated one-shot laser firing drones). God forbid the poor suckers ever have a cross-over into the Honorverse...

* Haven't played it or anything, just going by this thread.

[Night_stalker]

Cost,annoying treaties banning their developement, lack of interest, general safety issues, who knows? I don't that's for sure.

[Balrog]

Yeah, it goes in this order: TIM says the Great Rift was made by a mass accelerator weapon. TIM says its target was a Reaper. Shepard expresses disbelief that anything could kill a Reaper. I wasn't lying or incorrect about either statement.

Alright, now that you've cleared yourself up, it still doesn't prove anything. Shepard can still doubt a single weapon would be capable of taking out a Reaper singlehandedly, without implying a super-impervious barrier, especially since he would know how much damage the Normandy caused once Sovereign's barriers went down. And the Normandy isn't firing weapons capable of creating Great Rifts and whatnot.

As to the Citadel closing quickly, I can see that happening. They must have legions of air traffic controller analogues. The instant an 'unknown super-dreadnought' appears on their radar, they're going to close the hell out of the station and ask questions later. Battleships don't just appear for no reason.

How will they know it's a battleship? They will never have seen it before, and First Contact usually doesn't involve shooting someone on sight. If anything, they'll task some ship to go check it out, and when Sovereign smashes through it to reach the Tower it'll be too late.

Anyways, like before, even if they can get it closed, all it means for Impervious Sovereign is he camps out at the Relay and starves them out.

[adam_grif]

Aside from laser "short ranges" being measured, from what I've read here, in ranges far in excess of most ME space combat*, that still doesn't explain why they don't have something like missiles with bomb-pumped X-Ray lasers or similar (or even remote-operated one-shot laser firing drones). God forbid the poor suckers ever have a cross-over into the Honorverse...

* Haven't played it or anything, just going by this thread.

The Codex waves its hands and mutters something about ablative armor under its breath.

The real question is why don't they use nukes. They use disruptor torps to get through thick barriers, but radiation ignores barriers totally. Yes, PD exists, but clearly fighters can reach enemy craft without interruption, except sometimes being forced to break off for repairs. Build missiles the size of fighters, strap 500 kt bombs to them, and then get them to detonate 10 meters away from enemy hulls.

[Nephtys]

As to the Citadel closing quickly, I can see that happening. They must have legions of air traffic controller analogues. The instant an 'unknown super-dreadnought' appears on their radar, they're going to close the hell out of the station and ask questions later. Battleships don't just appear for no reason.

How will they know it's a battleship? They will never have seen it before, and First Contact usually doesn't involve shooting someone on sight. If anything, they'll task some ship to go check it out, and when Sovereign smashes through it to reach the Tower it'll be too late.

Anyways, like before, even if they can get it closed, all it means for Impervious Sovereign is he camps out at the Relay and starves them out.

Giant unknown warship appears with energy signatures off the charts. You'd think closing the shell is the least of their precautions. And remember, shoot first, ask later IS standard Citadel policy. It's what happened to the turian-human first contact.

In any case, what did happen was 'Giant unknown warship appears with energy signatures off the charts, escorted by a huge armada of known hostile geth warships'.

[adam_grif]

It's what happened to the turian-human first contact.

Not quite. The humans were opening new Mass Relays like it was going out of fashion, which is dangerous and banned by Citadel law. When the Turians found out, they jumped in and started conquering.

In this case, it's simply an unknown ship.

If they wanted to be more subtle, they could have had Saren be all "Hey gais check out this cool derelict prothean ship I found, it's totally in tact!" and given the usual IFF squawks.

[Night_stalker]

Slght problem with that. He is now a wanted criminal, so I doubt they would've bought it.

[Stark]

In this case, it's simply an unknown ship.

An unknown huge ship approaching the centre of government surrounded by Geth that looks just like the magic hand that killed a human colony.

The council is dumb but are they really THAT dumb?

If they wanted to be more subtle, they could have had Saren be all "Hey gais check out this cool derelict prothean ship I found, it's totally in tact!" and given the usual IFF squawks.

Ooops, someone is smarter than Bioware!