SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Rob Wilson]

Plus a direct line from the Lonley Mountain goes through a dense forest and over a mountain range....

It is closer to Rivendell (250 miles vs 350 miles) but as the only advantage it isn't much and the matter of 100miles at that point is not a major concern.

[Rob Wilson]

Pretty much where I was going, I can use a Quarterstaff real well and that fits the bill nicely (maybe a 6" iron banded/capped walking stick with a bracket that allows our Machete/Parang to be mounted if neccesary).

Sounds reasonbly good, I'm never a huge fan of "lego" weapons as I tend to dub them, but for our purposes it might be best....I like my weapons as solid as I can get them...so it all comes down to exactly how the blade is attatched.
Proper spears though might cause us problems moving about in middle earth....appearing obviously armed could cause us some problems with the natives at times.....so staffs that can have bayonets fixed would be a compromise.

Yeah it's very much a weapon of last resort with the blade attached, but it's that or having the Staff, your Utility knife and a special blade and cap for attaching to the Staff.

Having said that I want all our scouts proficient in the Staff, Sword and Bow as well as thier firearm. So a better mix might be Staff, and knife on you normally, with the Sword and bow carried when needed and stowed on the horse when not. If the scouts always move in 4's we have 2 out and about and 2 guarding the horses away from habitation but close enough to come in if needed.

[Keevan_Colton]

Pretty much where I was going, I can use a Quarterstaff real well and that fits the bill nicely (maybe a 6" iron banded/capped walking stick with a bracket that allows our Machete/Parang to be mounted if neccesary).

Sounds reasonbly good, I'm never a huge fan of "lego" weapons as I tend to dub them, but for our purposes it might be best....I like my weapons as solid as I can get them...so it all comes down to exactly how the blade is attatched.
Proper spears though might cause us problems moving about in middle earth....appearing obviously armed could cause us some problems with the natives at times.....so staffs that can have bayonets fixed would be a compromise.

Yeah it's very much a weapon of last resort with the blade attached, but it's that or having the Staff, your Utility knife and a special blade and cap for attaching to the Staff.

Having said that I want all our scouts proficient in the Staff, Sword and Bow as well as thier firearm. So a better mix might be Staff, and knife on you normally, with the Sword and bow carried when needed and stowed on the horse when not. If the scouts always move in 4's we have 2 out and about and 2 guarding the horses away from habitation but close enough to come in if needed.

Sounds good, if we could get our hands on them the elven style blades from the film would be very useful for our sword needs...though unlike rifles, standardization isnt an issue

[Knife]

I would imagine that most of us would get training by the experts amoung us in sword fighting with the emphasis being on short sword or long knife techniques. A bayonet or short stabbing sword like a gladius would probably be best for the majority of us. Rifles at long range, pistols and shotguns when they get in close and if ya gotta go hand to hand, a short sword to stabb the fucker in the gut.

Obviously, other arms would be handy but in a case by case senario and we would be pushing our selves too hard to try to train everyone on 20 or 30 different weapons that use way different principles to employ.

[Rob Wilson]

fan fic about this would be really quite interesting.

I wouldn't mind seeing different authrs taking different slants, One going with Cuddles suggestion for the Agricultural-Military model, another seeing if they can work the Mouth of Isen Angle and another tryiong for the Stealthy, limited involvement approach. Should be very interesting reading.

[Rob Wilson]

I have written up an updated version of the scenerio, does anyone want me to post it in this thread, or as a new one?

How did I miss this? Have you posted the updated idea anywhere Tim?

[Keevan_Colton]

I would imagine that most of us would get training by the experts amoung us in sword fighting with the emphasis being on short sword or long knife techniques. A bayonet or short stabbing sword like a gladius would probably be best for the majority of us. Rifles at long range, pistols and shotguns when they get in close and if ya gotta go hand to hand, a short sword to stabb the fucker in the gut.

Obviously, other arms would be handy but in a case by case senario and we would be pushing our selves too hard to try to train everyone on 20 or 30 different weapons that use way different principles to employ.

There are certain principles that can be applied over a broad spectrum of melee weapons.
Short swords worked very well for the romans in part thanks to thier tight formations....reach is a big advantage at times. I'd advocate something a bit longer than a gladius...closer to the long sword mark....perhaps an archers sword style weapon.....a sword at the shorter end of the long sword category it would be a reasonable match against the orc weapons as depicted in the movies.

[Knife]

To be honest I'm not overly fond of a rifle/club for close encounters with orcs...though solutions to that can be found locally....decent sword smiths dont seem to be in short supply in ME.
Pistols at close range may be effective, but....at point blank Urakhi with swords will be pretty nasty too....

Which is why I said that everyone needs to be trained in Swordsmanship and other weapons on top of the Rifles. When we are out and about in ME, we can't take Modern firearms out there with us (except in extreme or highly trained circumstances). Personally I prefer Staff or polearms to swords, but that in no way negates the need t learn them.

In Line with Knifes points, the Support staff will be taught on Small arms and knife use, with Swords and Arrows being at personal behest in thier own time.

As partial as I am to Bolt-action weapons I would prefer Semi-auto as the ability to hit at 1000m is mitigated by armour so I envision ranges of 600m as more likely and Semi-auto means we can up the tempo as they draw closer without disturbing the firing positions, plus magazines are larger meaning less reloads during firing. That though would be my only objection to Bolt-actions so it would be something to be hashed out between the Instructors rather than a massive sticking point.

I would agree, but also I am trying to balence maintence and the ability to easily repair the rifles through their lifetime (and ours) in the region. For example, it would be hard to manufacture the springs for the magazines with the equipment that has thus been stated. Those springs would only last a few years of constant use, if that long. The more complecated the weapon the more likely that a part will break that we can't fix and the whole weapon becomes useless.

I mean, ideally I would equip everyone with M16's and SAW's but after a couple of years, we would have been reduced to swords and shit due to equipment failures. While the bolt action would eventualy fail and fail to a point that we wouldn't be able to fix it, it would last alot longer that other forms of weapons.

[Enforcer Talen]

what if we occupied isenguard?

[Rob Wilson]

Sounds good, if we could get our hands on them the elven style blades from the film would be very useful for our sword needs...though unlike rifles, standardization isnt an issue

From an aesthetic point of View I'd like our Combat knives to be Elven, from a Practical point of View I'd probably stick with my Tanto Cold Steel and have a Parang as my Utility Knife (maybe a small lock-blade in a pocket as well, for emergencies). We do need to work out what everyone needs to bring regardless of their personal choices of luxuries.

[Darth Wong]

If we have to be proficient with a sword, this would imply that our defenses have been completely overrun and the orcs are piling into our base. This, in turn, would mean that we're fucked, because there's only 300 of us.

I don't see how a properly laid out defense would fail so utterly against a bunch of orcs. We have cleared out a large area around the base, we have machine-gun nests with a virtually unlimited supply of ammo as per the scenario setup, we have men on the walls picking off targets at range, we've probably fabricated numerous traps and crude land-mines and obstacles, we are fabricating mortars, and since orcs are lousy at hiding their advance, we've probably been sapping their strength as they approached the base.

I seriously doubt the orcs are smart enough to adapt their tactics for machine gun fire. They will probably advance in a dense massed charge once they finally get within range of our base, into which our M2 nests and mortars will be pouring .50cal ammo, chemical weapons, etc.

[Rob Wilson]

I would imagine that most of us would get training by the experts amoung us in sword fighting with the emphasis being on short sword or long knife techniques. A bayonet or short stabbing sword like a gladius would probably be best for the majority of us. Rifles at long range, pistols and shotguns when they get in close and if ya gotta go hand to hand, a short sword to stabb the fucker in the gut.

Obviously, other arms would be handy but in a case by case senario and we would be pushing our selves too hard to try to train everyone on 20 or 30 different weapons that use way different principles to employ.

There are certain principles that can be applied over a broad spectrum of melee weapons.
Short swords worked very well for the romans in part thanks to thier tight formations....reach is a big advantage at times. I'd advocate something a bit longer than a gladius...closer to the long sword mark....perhaps an archers sword style weapon.....a sword at the shorter end of the long sword category it would be a reasonable match against the orc weapons as depicted in the movies.

Ground down Bastard sword?

[Knife]

I would imagine that most of us would get training by the experts amoung us in sword fighting with the emphasis being on short sword or long knife techniques. A bayonet or short stabbing sword like a gladius would probably be best for the majority of us. Rifles at long range, pistols and shotguns when they get in close and if ya gotta go hand to hand, a short sword to stabb the fucker in the gut.

Obviously, other arms would be handy but in a case by case senario and we would be pushing our selves too hard to try to train everyone on 20 or 30 different weapons that use way different principles to employ.

There are certain principles that can be applied over a broad spectrum of melee weapons.
Short swords worked very well for the romans in part thanks to thier tight formations....reach is a big advantage at times. I'd advocate something a bit longer than a gladius...closer to the long sword mark....perhaps an archers sword style weapon.....a sword at the shorter end of the long sword category it would be a reasonable match against the orc weapons as depicted in the movies.

Possible, but if they are at a few meters range, I'd rather shoot them with a .40 or .45. With firearms, the combat at range is a breeze and only when it comes to extreme CQB should we have to result to swords which is why I suggested the gladius. Up close (as I understand) the stabbing motion is easier that slicing motions. Which considering my bayonet training, sounds about right. Your the sword guy so I will bow to your judgment, but I'd thought I'd throw that out.

[Keevan_Colton]

Sounds good, if we could get our hands on them the elven style blades from the film would be very useful for our sword needs...though unlike rifles, standardization isnt an issue

From an aesthetic point of View I'd like our Combat knives to be Elven, from a Practical point of View I'd probably stick with my Tanto Cold Steel and have a Parang as my Utility Knife (maybe a small lock-blade in a pocket as well, for emergencies). We do need to work out what everyone needs to bring regardless of their personal choices of luxuries.

Cold Steel make some very nice equipment....thier cavalry sabres are especially nice.....the elven blades appear to combine some of the attributes of most use in a sword, they are light, sharp and seem to be durable....a light sharp sword would certainly make the job of training people to be effective with them a lot easier....

[Cpt_Frank]

I would agree, but also I am trying to balence maintence and the ability to easily repair the rifles through their lifetime (and ours) in the region. For example, it would be hard to manufacture the springs for the magazines with the equipment that has thus been stated. Those springs would only last a few years of constant use, if that long. The more complecated the weapon the more likely that a part will break that we can't fix and the whole weapon becomes useless.

I mean, ideally I would equip everyone with M16's and SAW's but after a couple of years, we would have been reduced to swords and shit due to equipment failures. While the bolt action would eventualy fail and fail to a point that we wouldn't be able to fix it, it would last alot longer that other forms of weapons.

How about the 98k then? That fits our requirements, although we might consider taking a number of smgs along for certain situations.
We'd need to change the ammo to 7.92x57mm, and our LMG would then probably be the MG-42.

[Rob Wilson]

If we have to be proficient with a sword, this would imply that our defenses have been completely overrun and the orcs are piling into our base. This, in turn, would mean that we're fucked, because there's only 300 of us.

For our scouts as standard and a personal choice for the rest.

I don't see how a properly laid out defense would fail so utterly against a bunch of orcs. We have cleared out a large area around the base, we have machine-gun nests with a virtually unlimited supply of ammo as per the scenario setup, we have men on the walls picking off targets at range, we've probably fabricated numerous traps and crude land-mines and obstacles, we are fabricating mortars, and since orcs are lousy at hiding their advance, we've probably been sapping their strength as they approached the base.

I don't think they could ever breach our defences, I do however want our scouts out there in the world able to defend themselves without recourse to heavy firepower.

I think we'll have to have scouting parties out there to keep us abreast of hat is happening, guarding an diplomacy parties and able to act if neccesary to protect the story we know will lead to victory. The base itself would stand anything but a personal assault by Sauron himself.

[Keevan_Colton]

I would imagine that most of us would get training by the experts amoung us in sword fighting with the emphasis being on short sword or long knife techniques. A bayonet or short stabbing sword like a gladius would probably be best for the majority of us. Rifles at long range, pistols and shotguns when they get in close and if ya gotta go hand to hand, a short sword to stabb the fucker in the gut.

Obviously, other arms would be handy but in a case by case senario and we would be pushing our selves too hard to try to train everyone on 20 or 30 different weapons that use way different principles to employ.

There are certain principles that can be applied over a broad spectrum of melee weapons.
Short swords worked very well for the romans in part thanks to thier tight formations....reach is a big advantage at times. I'd advocate something a bit longer than a gladius...closer to the long sword mark....perhaps an archers sword style weapon.....a sword at the shorter end of the long sword category it would be a reasonable match against the orc weapons as depicted in the movies.

Possible, but if they are at a few meters range, I'd rather shoot them with a .40 or .45. With firearms, the combat at range is a breeze and only when it comes to extreme CQB should we have to result to swords which is why I suggested the gladius. Up close (as I understand) the stabbing motion is easier that slicing motions. Which considering my bayonet training, sounds about right. Your the sword guy so I will bow to your judgment, but I'd thought I'd throw that out.

I'm thinking a weapon with at least as much reach as they have would be the prefrence, it depends on the style of the sword whether its a thrusting weapon or a slashing one....a cut and thrust broadsword is a nice marrige of the two.
If we were fighting tightly packed the shorter length of the gladius is an advantage (also in confined spaces, corriders etc.....) but to be honest a little more reach could make all the difference against the orcs....you are right though we'd want thrusting weapons for the last resort.

[Rob Wilson]

what if we occupied isenguard?

We could if we wanted to, unfortunately at that point eveyone on ME thinks Saruman is a good guy and so we would have EVERYONE against us and make Saurons job easier by splitting the good guys forces.

[Rob Wilson]

I would agree, but also I am trying to balence maintence and the ability to easily repair the rifles through their lifetime (and ours) in the region. For example, it would be hard to manufacture the springs for the magazines with the equipment that has thus been stated. Those springs would only last a few years of constant use, if that long. The more complecated the weapon the more likely that a part will break that we can't fix and the whole weapon becomes useless.

I mean, ideally I would equip everyone with M16's and SAW's but after a couple of years, we would have been reduced to swords and shit due to equipment failures. While the bolt action would eventualy fail and fail to a point that we wouldn't be able to fix it, it would last alot longer that other forms of weapons.

How about the 98k then? That fits our requirements, although we might consider taking a number of smgs along for certain situations.
We'd need to change the ammo to 7.92x57mm, and our LMG would then probably be the MG-42.

Too high a rate of fire, stick with 7.62mm and have the SLR and either the M-60 or FN MAG.

[Rob Wilson]

I would agree, but also I am trying to balence maintence and the ability to easily repair the rifles through their lifetime (and ours) in the region. For example, it would be hard to manufacture the springs for the magazines with the equipment that has thus been stated. Those springs would only last a few years of constant use, if that long. The more complecated the weapon the more likely that a part will break that we can't fix and the whole weapon becomes useless.

Actually we had to jury-rig up new springs at times and they aren't that difficult to do providing you can get steel wire. The vehicle shop has to do a tougher job with shock springs for car suspension. we can maintain the SLR or GALIL indefinately as long as we have steel.

[Cpt_Frank]

Too high a rate of fire, stick with 7.62mm and have the SLR and either the M-60 or FN MAG.

The rate of fire can be reduced (as is with the MG-3 which is chambered in 7.62 and an excellent LMG)

[Rob Wilson]

Too high a rate of fire, stick with 7.62mm and have the SLR and either the M-60 or FN MAG.

The rate of fire can be reduced (as is with the MG-3 which is chambered in 7.62 and an excellent LMG)

I'd rather have a GPMG than an LMG as this is a defence situation for the deployment of these weapons.

[Cpt_Frank]

Too high a rate of fire, stick with 7.62mm and have the SLR and either the M-60 or FN MAG.

The rate of fire can be reduced (as is with the MG-3 which is chambered in 7.62 and an excellent LMG)

I'd rather have a GPMG than an LMG as this is a defence situation for the deployment of these weapons.

The MG-42 or MG-3 for that matter can be used in defensive positions on a tripod as medium MG well as light portable machine gun on a bipod.
But since the M-60 is based on it's receiver anyway....

[Rob Wilson]

Cold Steel make some very nice equipment....thier cavalry sabres are especially nice.....the elven blades appear to combine some of the attributes of most use in a sword, they are light, sharp and seem to be durable....a light sharp sword would certainly make the job of training people to be effective with them a lot easier....

I'm just wondering how esy it's going to be to get hold of Elven blades, even with a secret or otherwise alliance with Rivendell. Cetainly I'd like to take the right weapons with us that we can just in case we can't get a hold of anything we'd like over there.

[Cpt_Frank]

Cold Steel make some very nice equipment....thier cavalry sabres are especially nice.....the elven blades appear to combine some of the attributes of most use in a sword, they are light, sharp and seem to be durable....a light sharp sword would certainly make the job of training people to be effective with them a lot easier....

I'm just wondering how esy it's going to be to get hold of Elven blades, even with a secret or otherwise alliance with Rivendell. Cetainly I'd like to take the right weapons with us that we can just in case we can't get a hold of anything we'd like over there.

I don't think we really should rely on blade weapons. It's fine for those people who want to be trained with them, but in melee situation where using swords would be feasible, you can just as well rely on a M-1911 hi cap.