Teabaggers getting nastier.

[Broomstick]

Yet many Americans are convinced that we pay the highest taxes in the world....

[Samuel]

Haha. actually, FOX did protest policies bush did. Just not to the degree.

Can he give examples?

Just like democrats howl about stuff bush did but if obama does it, its ok cuz hes part of their party.

So Blue Dogs don't exist?

They r only doing wat a liberl channel would do if a southern democrat started voting the ... See Moremajority of the time with the opposition party.

Except the change in affiliation isn't due to change in political stance, but being caught for corruption.

Because u cant say with an honest face or brain that fox isnt any more biased than the mainstream media.

No, they just had to defend their right to lie on air.

so i think all media outlets should stop mudslinging.

What does it matter as long as the insults are true?

[PeZook]

Yet many Americans are convinced that we pay the highest taxes in the world....

Even if you add state property taxes and state sales tax it's still ridiculous. You mean that if I earn 373 000 per year I will have to pay an enormous 35%?

THE HORROR! NANNY STATE! TOTALITARIANISM! NAZI RULE!

The only way I'd consider that kind of tax "high" is if I didn't get free health care...

Oh. I see.

[Broomstick]

Right.

Even so, with the wealth of the nation as a whole and the economy of scale possible it is (I believe) possible for us to have a social safety net comparable with anything in Europe for less than the cost to whatever country you use as an example. Probably not a LOT less, but still possible.

[salm]

Right.

Even so, with the wealth of the nation as a whole and the economy of scale possible it is (I believe) possible for us to have a social safety net comparable with anything in Europe for less than the cost to whatever country you use as an example. Probably not a LOT less, but still possible.

How would you make it cheaper than the ones everybody else has?

[Stravo]

I've read some interesting analysis on the teabaggers in relation to their stance on healthcare reform. There is a new slant on the reform that paints it as essentially a resdistribution of wealth on the sly. You see, they're cutting medicare to help fund the healthcare reform. And who are the biggest users of Medicare? The older retired folks. And who will benefit the most from healthcare reform - at least among the 32 million uninsured? Younger folks in the 26 to 35 bracket who make up the bulk of those uninsured. So in essence, it is now being painted as taking money away from the older folks and giving it to the young who happen to be the largest segement of Obama voters. And those teabaggers all seem to be older white folks.

In the end, it's all one big conspiracy.

The trials and tribulations of this health care reform debate has slowly taught me to hate everyone in government because no one has balls anymore and the party that lies and shills on fear and outright lies never gets called on it. We have had to listen to national figures assure us that there would be death panels and all other kinds of shenanigans and the other party pander and beg for bipartisanship, watering the bill down until it is no longer really reform, but a nice patch job.

[Force Lord]

It's really tragic to see all this virtrol aimed at something that really helps people. The same people who are demonizing the Democrats were conveniently off the scene when Bush Jr. was in office with his wars and financial incompetence. The insane Right (if there are any sane conservatives yet) is killing the US, and these people don't care.

P.S.: Good to see you back, Stravo.

Edited.

[PeZook]

Even so, with the wealth of the nation as a whole and the economy of scale possible it is (I believe) possible for us to have a social safety net comparable with anything in Europe for less than the cost to whatever country you use as an example. Probably not a LOT less, but still possible.

Of course. You're still getting high-quality social services in some areas, and the sheer funding your government can throw about is staggering ; Of course in some cases, services get prohibitively expensive when you try to provide them below a certain population density - in this sense, American Exceptionalism does carry a bit of weight.

However, your economy could probably take a bit more tax, especially sales tax on certain junk foods and luxury items ; Or rather - could've taken, back in the time when the going was good. But of course, to teabaggers a 35% maximum tax bracket is somehow excessive, so any attempt to raise taxes will see them shrill and moan and cry.

So will any attempt at, say, cutting your military expenditure

[Stravo]

However, your economy could probably take a bit more tax, especially sales tax on certain junk foods and luxury items ; Or rather - could've taken, back in the time when the going was good. But of course, to teabaggers a 35% maximum tax bracket is somehow excessive, so any attempt to raise taxes will see them shrill and moan and cry.

So will any attempt at, say, cutting your military expenditure

One of the big problems we have with the option of additional taxes are the lobbies for the products you would be taxing. For example NY State was on the verge of passing a 5 cent tax on all sugary drinks. Sounds simple enough, right? The soft drink lobby spent 35 million dollars and now that tax is dead. How would we tax junk food when that industry has so much money to throw around that no Congressman in his or her right mind would turn up their nose to that cash? I don't think we'll see the return of 90% tax rates like we had in the first half of the 20th century. Reagan killed that dead.

As for military spending I don't think that can significantly go down either. Any politician that tries it would immediately be attacked by the opposing side as "weakening" America besides the rest of the world seems to want to have that nice cushion of American security so they don't have to spend money on a military.

[Simon_Jester]

The trials and tribulations of this health care reform debate has slowly taught me to hate everyone in government because no one has balls anymore and the party that lies and shills on fear and outright lies never gets called on it. We have had to listen to national figures assure us that there would be death panels and all other kinds of shenanigans and the other party pander and beg for bipartisanship, watering the bill down until it is no longer really reform, but a nice patch job.

I think the Democrats may be beginning to learn a lesson about what happens when you try to cooperate with your enemy, as opposed to cooperating with someone who is merely a rival.

Of course, the lesson is one they should have deduced from first principles back around 2002, but better late than never.

[Stravo]

The trials and tribulations of this health care reform debate has slowly taught me to hate everyone in government because no one has balls anymore and the party that lies and shills on fear and outright lies never gets called on it. We have had to listen to national figures assure us that there would be death panels and all other kinds of shenanigans and the other party pander and beg for bipartisanship, watering the bill down until it is no longer really reform, but a nice patch job.

I think the Democrats may be beginning to learn a lesson about what happens when you try to cooperate with your enemy, as opposed to cooperating with someone who is merely a rival.

Of course, the lesson is one they should have deduced from first principles back around 2002, but better late than never.

And I wouldn't ascribe purely noble intentions on the democrats either for wanting even a symobolic bit of bipartisanship. I think the primary motivator for that almost irrational drive for Republican votes we witnessed was to make sure they could spread some blame around should the reform go south and really sour with the voters. By being a purely democratic bill there is no one else to blame but them.

[Darth Paxis]

well Right leaning Friend no. 2 has requested to be called Government Hating Friend as he feels that this title suits him better, so here goes:

ARE YOU F***ING KIDDING ME YOU ARE TRYING TO TELL ME THAT PEACEFUL PROTESTS ABOUT TAXES ARE LIKE VIOLENT RIOTS AGAINST TEENAGE MINORITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!!!!! DUDE WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING.

then:
You see thats why I am becoming more and more Conservative there are way too many Liberals that exploit victims of tragedy's for political gain. It's disgusting really.

followed by:
And an SEIU member biting off the finger of an elderly man isn't anything like that. Seriously a bunch of keyboard warriors venting anger on the internet doesn't count as a violent protests. Every political party has nut jobs (EVERY) and to point out the T-party as if its the only one that resembles protests done by the KKK I mean come on....as if ... See Morebush never received death threats as if any of this is new. Theres a huge difference between frustrated people telling their government "knock it off" and bigots....seriously read the comments on that article I just read several pages of them....

and finally:
For the record I dont like the Tea-party. I just find this comparison as ridiculous as people comparing Obama to Mao

@Yosemite Bear: Thanks, I hadn't heard it refered to as anything other than the Tea Party or Teabaggers.

@Samuel: I'll be sure to mention those points, thanks.

[Broomstick]

Right.

Even so, with the wealth of the nation as a whole and the economy of scale possible it is (I believe) possible for us to have a social safety net comparable with anything in Europe for less than the cost to whatever country you use as an example. Probably not a LOT less, but still possible.

How would you make it cheaper than the ones everybody else has?

As I said - economy of scale. Mass production. Selling American medical care items (drugs, devices, medical schooling) to others.

As pointed out, in some geographic areas our lack of population density works against us, but some of the denser urban centers that doesn't apply. Add on top of that Americans are already willing to travel extensive distances to seek certain types of treatment, so you can have an optimum (in theory) number of advanced medical centers instead of every political subdivision on a continent demanding one.

[Darth Paxis]

Well Right Leaning Friend respnded quickly, though only about Fox and Bush Jr.:

I have a few off the top of my head. His unrestricted free trade policy(not alot of protest though), his sale of ports to the UAE. and the biggest ever. His support of amnesty for the illegals. Thats the biggest. and they did start howling, mildly @ least, that he was spending too much.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

So in essence, their biggest complaint was that Bush Jr. wasn't being right wing enough. Amusingly that was pointed out here too and laughed at.

[That NOS Guy]

I wonder if Reagan was liberal since his illegal immigration amnesty actually passed.

[Crossroads Inc.]

@ Darth Praxis

I think you really need to do better job of framing your side od things. Debating people like this isn't about getting them to see your side, they won't EVER. Debating people like this is about basically getting them to admit they are wrong, or at the least get them to admit to supporting people who are racists.

Below is a pst I made earlier that does a good job of showing exactly how violent the Right is.

In the first year of Obama, Death threats went up form bush over 400 %
Over the span of 8 years we have had fewer death threats on sitting politicians then we have had in the past one year.
Over the past four days we have had more "direct" attacks and verbal threats on politicians then we have had in four years.

And as for "the media" being against it, The only media these people watch is fauxnews, and they have been actively encourage violence, directly telling people to "rise up" since before Obama was President.

are there wackos on the Left?
Yes..
Have they mad threats and acts of violence against the Right?
Yes..
Has it approached or even come close to the volume of Hatred, Violence and active Death threats now coming from Right wing wackos?
Not Even Close.

And most damning of all,
Does the Left / Liberals have a History Of institutionalizing, promoting, supporting and over all Ignoring violence and hate speech?
Again, not even close.

Do not ever make the case "Liberals do it too" When discussing current events, The mis-match in volume and amounts of incidents is forever tipped toward the Right..

What you need to do is FIrst get him to accept the amount of numbers of wackos on the right, and then ask him ot provide evidence of similar numbers form the Left.

[Stravo]

Looking at Crossroad's stats how much of this can be attributed to standard Right Wing hatred and knee jerk facism and how much of it is simply because Obama is black? I mean they hated Clinton with a religious fervor but I don't remember anything remotely like this back then.

[Broomstick]

A significant portion is, yes, because Obama is black. I'm not sure how to determine how of it is due to that.

[Liberty]

Yet many Americans are convinced that we pay the highest taxes in the world....

You know, Broomstick, the American colonists paid less in taxes than did those living in England in the 1700s, and yet they yelled and hollered and preferred to dump tea into the harbor rather than pay taxes on it.

[Broomstick]

Well, of course - those who were happy in Britain stayed home, right? It was only malcontents and forcibly transported troublemakers and criminals who wound up in the colonies! Bunch of rabble...

[Vastatosaurus Rex]

A significant portion is, yes, because Obama is black. I'm not sure how to determine how of it is due to that.

Surely someone could do a study comparing the amount of death threats Clinton received with that received by Obama (assuming data on anti-Clinton threats has been collected). If Obama is found to have received significantly more threats than Clinton, that would lend support to the hypothesis that Obama's ethnic identity is a major factor behind Republican hatred of him.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Looking at Crossroad's stats how much of this can be attributed to standard Right Wing hatred and knee jerk facism and how much of it is simply because Obama is black? I mean they hated Clinton with a religious fervor but I don't remember anything remotely like this back then.

Believe it or not, I would say that Obama being Black is NOT the driving difference, though it helps.. I would say the real difference is 15 years worth concentrating and sharpening their message and brainwashing. 15years worth of "How did we not gut Clinton enough?" Red states getting red, the far right getting more and more far.

I would say what really did it was the Bush years, mostly 8years tell people 24/7 that Dems are traitors, Dems can't be trusted, Dems will ruin America. 8years of installing intense Fear and Terror into the far right. And now suddenly, GASP! the Dems are in control of America again!

Having Obama being black just helps stir up what I am sure would have been an almost equally violent outrage against the Dems being in power.

As for Darth Praxis, one other thing I would to to my first outline would be to have your "Friend" name at a minimum, Two Democratic Senators and Congressmen, in the past 8 years, who have outwardly advocated violence against Republicans.

[Lord of the Abyss]

A significant portion is, yes, because Obama is black. I'm not sure how to determine how of it is due to that.

Surely someone could do a study comparing the amount of death threats Clinton received with that received by Obama (assuming data on anti-Clinton threats has been collected). If Obama is found to have received significantly more threats than Clinton, that would lend support to the hypothesis that Obama's ethnic identity is a major factor behind Republican hatred of him.

As i recall, Obama has been getting more death threats than any President since the Secret Service has kept records.

[Samuel]

You see thats why I am becoming more and more Conservative there are way too many Liberals that exploit victims of tragedy's for political gain. It's disgusting really.

If it helps prevent further people from becoming victims, why not?

His unrestricted free trade policy(not alot of protest though),

The US still has trade restrictions. He reduced their level. Given that is leftist hippies who are supposed to be against globalization I don't see how FOX would be complaining.

his sale of ports to the UAE.

I just found an issue where I agree completely with George W Bush. Wow.