As man died, witnesses turned away

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-02-17 12:14am

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have done nothing but report it to the cops. As its been said, you don't even have to give your identity.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-02-17 12:52am

Shinova wrote:Gah. This is just like that one case where a woman was stabbed to death in the streets at night. At least 38 people could see the murder from their windows but did nothing while the woman was bleeding to death, screaming. They still did nothing when the killer came back to finish the job.

Kitty Genovese, yup. That's exactly what I thought of when I saw the thread topic...

Man, people are horrible...

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-02-17 12:53am

Iceberg wrote:Strictly the province of action movies. Anybody shooting for the kneecaps or arm is more likely to hurt an innocent bystander than the person they were shooting at. If you want to hit a target, you aim for the center of mass. Period.

Right, just checking.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-02-17 01:59am

As a cop, I deal with callous witnesses all the time, but fortunately, I have never experienced indifference of this magnitude. I can understand not wanting to involve yourself in the physical violence itself, and intervening in the fight. But I have to say, there is no excuse for all these people just "going on their merry way" as Shep put it, particularly in this day and age when four out of five people seem to have cell phones - you don't even have to move one step out of your way to make the 911 call. If you are the kind of person who can just watch a man bleeding his life out on the pavement and not even lift a finger to call the police, then you are a fucking piece of shit. There are no words to express the depth of my contempt for you.

I can also give you the cop's perspective on this. I have only been on the job about two and a half years now, and I am already starting to adopt the cop mentality (i.e. there are three classes of people: us [cops], shitbag criminals, and worthless civilians, with their yapping gobs at one end and their smelly feet at the other). This sort of thing makes it much, much harder and harder to resist adopting that jaded, cynical outlook. If you can just calmly walk by and watch someone die without even punching 911 in on your cell phone as you stroll on to your destination, then by Jupiter you deserve to live in a shitty, crime-ridden, dangerous city!!!

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-02-17 02:03am

911 calls are free on pay phones, aren't they?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-02-17 03:21am

Yes. I agree fully with Perinquus. You help your fellow citizens and report the crimes, you don't fuck them over! MOTHERFUCKERS!

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-02-17 03:43am

I've seen this kind of thing happen, not a murders, but where people have been dead, or close to it on the street and people have just walked on past.

I posted a thread here in December about my intervention along with some other people in a dispute on the street. Personally I have no problem getting inbetween two people IF I feel that it is required - and safe for myself.

But nobody calling after someone was shot. Nobody even stopping to help. I hope that one day they are lying on the ground bleeding to death and that they learn what its like to have people ignore you. But that would be a vicious circle.

Indeed, I think its even a crime in some place NOT to report this kind of thing - it might even be a crime NOT to stop and help. I think that would be a great idea.

And, Red Imperator, shut the hell up.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-17 08:12am

Are you kiding? A Side on or Frontal Arm shot is easily done espcilly in a Murder Situation, Few Murders sneak up on their victiums then duck from cover to cover as they run away, No generaly they walk around in full view of everyone which is an easy enough shot for anyone trained in how to use a Fire-arm

And if you still want to aim for the center body-mass, Fine, aim for the Belt Buckle, its not gonna pass low and if it does pass high, it stands a good chance of fucking him up permatly but not killing him(Aside from bleeding to death)

Sebastin · Post by **Sebastin** » 2003-02-17 09:31am

Indeed, I think its even a crime in some place NOT to report this kind of thing - it might even be a crime NOT to stop and help. I think that would be a great idea.

Neglected help is a crime in germany for example. And carrys quite heavy possible punishments aproaching those of involuntary killing, up to 10 years i think. I´m actualy quite surprised there isn´t such a law in america, it seems natural for any developed country.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-02-17 10:00am

Iceberg wrote:
Crayz9000 wrote:
NF_Utvol wrote: Oh, yeah, terrible terrible guns. They kill people, and do absolutely no good! Thank goodness that person or a witness didn't shoot the son of a gun doing the killing!
Whatever happened to the idea of shooting someone in a non-lethal place, like, say, the kneecaps or arm? Or is that outlawed now?
Strictly the province of action movies. Anybody shooting for the kneecaps or arm is more likely to hurt an innocent bystander than the person they were shooting at. If you want to hit a target, you aim for the center of mass. Period.

Plus you may actually hit a vital artery or cause more harm that could be sueable.

There is no such thing as shooting and not trying to kill.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-17 12:31pm

I would have pulled a rifle and shot the assholes head off. Then driven away. Gods know the people wouldnt have cared.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-02-17 01:43pm

MKSheppard wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:I should have known better than to think that you were going to say how the people that did nothing were in the wrong giving how you hate the police and all.
Intervening to help someone in DC is just not worth it. You get bogged
down in all kinds of red tape. God help you if you lay a hand on the perp.

I'd have done the same thing if I was in their position. Simply looked, filled
my car up and gone on my merry way.

While that may be the logical thing to do in the DC area in the interest of self-preservation, I couldn't do it. I'd help.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-02-17 02:10pm

reminds me of a case where i was snowboarding in davos a couple of years ago. 100 meters from the lift an old man was walking with his skiis and slipped on the ice, fell and hit his head on the pavement. the people infront of my group and me just looked at him and walk past him. we got there and he was unconcious. we got help and the ambulance came. thee whole help action was a matter of 2 minutes.
god damn, what´s worng with people. so many dont give a shit about others, not even if there´s no risk to their own health.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-17 02:38pm

jegs2 wrote: While that may be the logical thing to do in the DC area in the interest of self-preservation, I couldn't do it. I'd help.

The worst thing that could happen is that you die yourself, and everyone is going to die anyway. Is the average person really such a pathetic being that they let their survival instincts take over whenever the chance of harm or suffering exists, even a likely relatively small chance? Probably not, but I suspect the sociologists are on to something - Mobs are stupid.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-02-17 02:51pm

Mr Bean wrote:Are you kiding? A Side on or Frontal Arm shot is easily done espcilly in a Murder Situation, Few Murders sneak up on their victiums then duck from cover to cover as they run away, No generaly they walk around in full view of everyone which is an easy enough shot for anyone trained in how to use a Fire-arm

And if you still want to aim for the center body-mass, Fine, aim for the Belt Buckle, its not gonna pass low and if it does pass high, it stands a good chance of fucking him up permatly but not killing him(Aside from bleeding to death)

Sorry do dispute you, but as someone who may actually have to get into a gunfight with one of these thugs one of these days (I've come pretty close on two occasions already), and as someone who is trained in the use of a handgun in the latest, most up to date tactics, I have to tell you this is a bad idea.

You never shoot to wound. You shoot to neutralize the target. If he dies of that wound on scene, or later in the hospital... well, c'est la vie. But you aim center mass. A few good solid torso hits will usually stop the attacker. If he's wearing body armor, you can try for a shot to the pelvic area, to break the pelvic bone and drop him that way, or a head shot, depending which offers the better target.

The problem with handguns is that they are not the magic wands of death that you see in movies. They are actually quite underpowered, in terms of instantly neutralizing a human target. We only use them the most because nothing largert is practical to carry around all day. Nobody who knows he's about to get into a gun fight, and has time to prepare for it chooses a handgun as his primary weapon. If you don't hit a vital organ, or the brain or spinal cord, it will not stop him instantaneously. Whether he fights on a little longer, tries to run, or gives up will depend on how determined and aggressive (and possibly how drugged up) he is.

Aiming for a non-vital area in hopes of simply wounding him may A) cause you to miss because you're aiming for a smaller target, and B) fail to neutralize the attacker, leaving him able to return fire, and possibly kill you.

Finally, a handgun us a dangerous thing. A wound that may not stop an attacker instantly may still cause him to die later. Trying to inflict a less than lethal wound with an intrinsically lethal instrument is a chancy thing at best. If you are not justified in killing him, you are not justified in shooting at all.

Never shoot to wound.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-02-17 03:02pm

Perinquus wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:
Aiming for a non-vital area in hopes of simply wounding him may A) cause you to miss because you're aiming for a smaller target, and B) fail to neutralize the attacker, leaving him able to return fire, and possibly kill you.

Never shoot to wound.

the B) argument i guess is invalid and this is about an armshot. if the arm is hit i dont believe the wielder is still able to hold or even aim and fire the gun.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-02-17 03:32pm

salm wrote:
Perinquus wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:
Aiming for a non-vital area in hopes of simply wounding him may A) cause you to miss because you're aiming for a smaller target, and B) fail to neutralize the attacker, leaving him able to return fire, and possibly kill you.

Never shoot to wound.
the B) argument i guess is invalid and this is about an armshot. if the arm is hit i dont believe the wielder is still able to hold or even aim and fire the gun.

Don't bet on it. It might happen, and then again it might not. In a recent shooting here in Norfolk where we lost an officer, she (a female officer) got the first two shots off. Her first bullet hit the shitbag's right hand as he drew his gun, passed through the hand and into his abdomnen. He still killed her.

Think about this guy. I am a sworn police officer. I carry a gun on a daily basis, I've qualified at master level with it, and constantly I train to keep my skills sharp and keep up with the most advanced tactics. I do this for a living.

I just might know what I'm talking about.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-02-17 03:47pm

Iceberg wrote:
Crayz9000 wrote: Whatever happened to the idea of shooting someone in a non-lethal place, like, say, the kneecaps or arm? Or is that outlawed now?
Strictly the province of action movies. Anybody shooting for the kneecaps or arm is more likely to hurt an innocent bystander than the person they were shooting at. If you want to hit a target, you aim for the center of mass. Period.

You also run into the problem about excessive force. In an awful lot of US states you can't shoot anyone unless you are "in fear for your life". You aren't exactly in fear for your life if you take deliberate aim at a leg and it's going to be worse if you cripple them by shooting out their kneecap.
In both cases there is the possibility that they will sue you for pain and suffering and whatever else they can think off. They don't seem to care that you could have killed them and didn't.

I guess I should add that a bulltet wound can be lethal just about anywhere it hits a person. Certainly there are more lethal places and places that in general people can be saved if they get medical attention quickly, but you never know when a person might die just from the shock. Also, places like the leg have rather large blood vessels. Hit one of those and the person is going to die. Dammage a bone and the person could end up with bone marrow floating around in the bloodstream, evenutually causing a stroke or heart attack.