Is trash-talk inherently misogynist?

[Darth Wong]

As the thread title says. Is contemporary trash-talk inherently misogynist? It certainly seems to equate failure and humiliation to female sexuality. For example:

"Suck it down", "Suck on it", "Suck my balls", "Suck my dick", etc.
"You got screwed", "Fuck you", etc.
"You lose, bitch!"

In general, all of this language presumes that it's the ultimate failure and humiliation to be equated to a female, even when speaking of totally non-sexual activities such as playing sports or even card games or video games.

I guess it's sort of like the way "cocksucker" is used as an insult, but my wife sucks my dick all the time and I certainly don't think that should be considered an insulting statement.

[UnderAGreySky]

Only as much as it is anti-homosexual, right? "Dude that's so gay!" "You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded!" and such...

'Cocksucker' could be a homophobic insult too, as much as a misogynist one. It insinuates that a guy who sucks cock is worse than the guy who gets his sucked.

(as a side note, Firefox doesn't give me a spelling error for 'cocksucker' )

[Korvan]

I would agree that trash talk is misogynist. If you walked up to a guy and called him one of three names, "dick", "asshole", or "pussy" in a non joking manner, you will get a much more negative response if you called him a pussy. Call me a dick or an asshole, so what if I'm a dick or an asshole, but call me a pussy and I have to show just how much not a pussy I am.

[Knife]

I'm not sure, though it is a good argument. Would not it make more sense to really just be a way to say they are less of a man than they should be, and only having two sexes, by default, a woman (or homosexual). So, I guess it is misogynist by default, but the real insult is supposed to be less than a manly man.

[Lagmonster]

Associating failure or submission with femininity is wrong, because women aren't naturally either.

The first major category of insults is about dominance, associating superiority with the sexually dominant position. Could it have something to do with the old male view that women should be sexually submissive? Probably; but it mainly implies that the sexually submissive position is inferior. There may be something to be said in there for the male sexual self-image as a dominant, powerful individual.

The second category is about weakness and competition. Saying, "You play like a girl" implies that women cannot compete athletically with other men, which is more or less true. But then, associating all poor male performance with femininity is something like an albino teasing a black man that he can't hide naked in a snowdrift.

[Channel72]

It's not misogynistic per se; it's just a reflection of a very strong cultural bias towards explicitly defined gender roles.

[wolveraptor]

I've thought this for a while. The English language itself, is, in my mind, intrinsically biased in favor of rich white (specifically Anglo-Saxon) heterosexual males. Consider the lack of identity-specific slurs available for them. There is no heterosexual equivalent for "fag" or "queer" (at least, not one that's taken seriously; I've heard "breeder" being tossed around, but that just seems laughable), nor is there a racial slur for white people that is taken as seriously as "nigger", "chink", etc. are for blacks or asians. The two that I'm aware of, "cracker" and "honkey", derive from insults towards poor white people and Hungarian immigrants respectively.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I like the word "asshole". It's an egalitarian insult - everyone has an asshole, it can't possibly be more offensive to one group than another.

[Solauren]

There are two styles of trash-talk I've encountered.

The first is the typical crap, and yes, that can be very misogynist. The only thing worse then it when it comes to 'negative reinforcement' social interaction is 'Yo'Mamma jokes' and racist remarks.


The other, is more 'mature' and 'intelligent' trash talking. Problem is, it's also much harder to do, and is very much a 'niche' form. Almost always relying on comparative factors based on shared interested and activities.

i.e "Dude, that blew harder more then my leafblower." (mutual interest in yardwork or tools)
i.e "Dude, you just failed your 'kicked to the curb saving throw' with that girl (Dungeons and Dragons/RPGs mutual interest)
i.e "Dude, you're going down faster then the Enterprise against a Star Destroyer" (Obvious mutual interest).

Quite frankly, I can't stand people that use the 'sexual' trash talking as the primary trash-talking. My friends and I try to keep our insults, ribbing, and so forth reasonable intelligent and creative.

[Bakustra]

I've thought this for a while. The English language itself, is, in my mind, intrinsically biased in favor of rich white (specifically Anglo-Saxon) heterosexual males. Consider the lack of identity-specific slurs available for them. There is no heterosexual equivalent for "fag" or "queer" (at least, not one that's taken seriously; I've heard "breeder" being tossed around, but that just seems laughable), nor is there a racial slur for white people that is taken as seriously as "nigger", "chink", etc. are for blacks or asians. The two that I'm aware of, "cracker" and "honkey", derive from insults towards poor white people and Hungarian immigrants respectively.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I like the word "asshole". It's an egalitarian insult - everyone has an asshole, it can't possibly be more offensive to one group than another.

Well, why do you suppose that racial slurs against whites aren't taken seriously? Similarly, why aren't heterophobic slurs taken seriously? If, say, theoretically, English were spoken by purple moon-men who used the term "plastiform" as a racial slur against the non-purple during their thousand years of reign over Earth, then said term would become offensive following the end of violet dominion. Would this mean that English, then, had become intrinsically biased in favor of purple moon-men? Words only are hurtful because of their history and associations, so given the right conditions, all of today's racial slurs could well fade and be replaced by new slurs against the current favored populations.

[spaceviking]

At some level isn't a blowjob at least symbolically misogynistic, she is on her knees pleasuring you. Her satisfaction is derived from your enjoyment. That being said the same can be said for when you perform oral on your wife.( whatever the opposite to misogynistic is)

[Darth Wong]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

[Liberty]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

This for me is the crux of the problem. If both were used as insults, then that would be a sign of equality. But they're not. It is true that anyone, male or female, can be "screwed" and "suck dick;" however, if the language reflected true equality, "lick pussy" would be used as well, as Mike said.

That being said, I personally don't find most of these slurs offensive. Some, however, I do find offensive, most noticeably "you're being a pussy" or "you did that like a girl." Those phrases that equate things that are only female (pussies and girls) with weakness are offensive to me, while those that equate things that could potentially be male as well as female (sucking dick, being screwed) are not.

However, in an ideal world, this language would be gender neutral or include both sides (sucking dick and licking pussy).

That's my take anyway.

[spaceviking]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

Ya your right, guess penetration is the primary determinate, not who is getting pleasured. Though I think that if a guy regularly performed cunnilingus without getting anything in return, he would get called a bitch or something similar.

[Eleas]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

Funnily enough (and certainly this is not the case today), but apparently one of the worst things a man could be called in Ancient Rome was "cunilictor", which basically meant precisely that.

[Temujin]

I would say it definitely has its roots in male dominated, misogynistic culture.

Though I think how some guys respond to such an emasculating insult says a lot about how insecure they are with their own sexuality.

For me personally as a heterosexual male, as much as I love the term cocksucker as an insult (thank you Deadwood ), I would never feel that my manhood was threatened if someone used it against me. I would just view it as an antagonistic insult.

Some guys however seem to flip their lids if you call them a pussy or a cocksucker; and in my experience they generally are the hyper macho posturing assholes types.

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

While I've heard guys in anger yell things like cunt sucker at other guys, it was more out of blind rage then anything else. I have however, regularly heard it used by both sexes to insult a female.

[Lord of the Abyss]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

Yes, but much less often than insults like "cocksucker". On the other hand, that can be just as much an example of homophobia as misogyny. It seems to me to be more a matter of accusing someone of not being a "real man", according to a very narrow definition of the term, with an undercurrent of disdain for everyone who doesn't fit into that narrow category. A more wide raging form of intolerance than just misogyny, although that is included.

[wolveraptor]

*snip*

Oh, I agree completely. Obviously the English language is the way it is because of the culture of the population that originally spoke and continues to speak it.

Funnily enough (and certainly this is not the case today), but apparently one of the worst things a man could be called in Ancient Rome was "cunilictor", which basically meant precisely that.

Ancient Rome was still quite patriarchal, though, right? So I guess the use of such an insult could still be reflective of that. It was probably shameful for a Roman man to lower himself before a woman, or something to that effect. And yet the use of "cocksucker" doesn't reflect a misandristic (?) culture. That's kind of dissonant.

[Ariphaos]

I don't think the phrase "Suck my bloody red tampon." is exactly misogynist. It's not exactly something a male can say effectively, even.

[spaceviking]

who the fuck has ever said that

[xerex]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

Funnily enough (and certainly this is not the case today), but apparently one of the worst things a man could be called in Ancient Rome was "cunilictor", which basically meant precisely that.

actually in modern Jamaica its a sign of unmanliness (among men) to performed cunnilingus. so most men will refuse to perform, or if they do will lie about it to their boys.

at least thats what the jamaican girls at university tell me.

[adam_grif]

Telling a woman that she's very manly is an insult too. There's no objective scale for which insults are more grievous than others, and it no doubt varies from place to place:

If you walked up to a guy and called him one of three names, "dick", "asshole", or "pussy" in a non joking manner, you will get a much more negative response if you called him a pussy. Call me a dick or an asshole, so what if I'm a dick or an asshole, but call me a pussy and I have to show just how much not a pussy I am.

Totally disagree. Calling somebody a "pussy" is less insulting than calling them a dick, although neither is a particularly bad insult compared to most. Pussy = cowardly, dick = being excessively unfair or mean.

Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

Yes, but not very commonly.



Getting more back to the point though, the use of these insults can't be said to be mysogonistic or even homophobic, even if they originated with mysogony or homophobia. The actual use of the worlds is largely disconnected from the actual meaning of the words. Most of the ones mentioned in this thread (except maybe pussy and dick) are extremely generic insults when used outside of a specific context. Unless the person in question is actually being accused of being a homosexual, calling them a "fag" could mean anything from them being spineless to them not lending you a dollar for parking money. Something being "gay" is a generic term for "bad" or "annoying", except in some specific contexts again.

When the usage and origin of the words are so disconnected, the word you're using to convey a meaning becomes largely irrelevant and has very little to do with your underlying attitudes. The meaning is important. As for why we use these words specifically, that tend towards words relating to homosexuality and being woman-like, this is no doubt a reflection of the rampant homophobia and mysogony in our recent cultural past. But that people who are neither mysognoistic nor homophobic use these terms is just the way it turned out.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 80 years time, "fag" was still an insult, but people had no idea that it once referred to homosexuality. Words often gain secondary meanings, and over time it's not uncommon for htem to lose their original meaning. Think about how "gay" never gets used in its original sense, and now exclusively refers to homosexuality. "Retard" and "Moron" used to be completely valid terms that a doctor or psychiatrist would use when referring to people of below average mental function. They gained popularity as insults, and so the professionals have stopped using these terms, because if you go to a psychiatrist and they tell you you're a retard, you'd slap them.

[lance]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

The closest I've heard is "pot licker", which would be a bit of a stretch.

[wolveraptor]

Goddamnit, fucked up my quote tags in my last post.

Totally disagree. Calling somebody a "pussy" is less insulting than calling them a dick, although neither is a particularly bad insult compared to most. Pussy = cowardly, dick = being excessively unfair or mean.

That's the point though, some (if not many) men would rather be percieved as excessively mean or unfair than as a coward.

[Flameblade]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

I've heard the term "cuntsucker" used as an insult.

[Sarevok]

Is this merely limited to english language ? I can at least confirm that what DW outlines holds true applies in all south asian language. Trash talk is exactly as misogynistic as it is in english. I imagine this is same all over the world. Being compared to a woman seems to be an universal insult for men all over.