SF Military Tropes

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Aaron
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Aaron »

adam_grif wrote:
I know, but isn't there a whole bunch of hot air surrounding the use of lasers as blinding weapons or something? I vaguely recall something about that.
Lasers specifically designed to blind people are outlawed, I forget which specific treaty it is but there was many a long and boring lecture on it in the Army. It extends to things like using laser pointers to blind guys using thermal imagers as well apparently, as we got in all kinds of shit for that.

It's a bit of a moot point for an actual laser weapon though, as I would expect it to flat out kill a person.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Sarevok »

Problem with a distant reflecting mirror is that if a mirror can be built same material can also serve as anti laser armor.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Simon_Jester »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Lasers specifically designed to blind people are outlawed, I forget which specific treaty it is but there was many a long and boring lecture on it in the Army. It extends to things like using laser pointers to blind guys using thermal imagers as well apparently, as we got in all kinds of shit for that.

It's a bit of a moot point for an actual laser weapon though, as I would expect it to flat out kill a person.
Thing is, the side-scatter off a weapons grade laser is quite capable of blinding people under the wrong conditions. Fire a laser cannon at a tank, and the reflection off the tank's armor will probably cause retinal damage to anyone looking at the tank from close range.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Aaron »

Simon_Jester wrote:Thing is, the side-scatter off a weapons grade laser is quite capable of blinding people under the wrong conditions. Fire a laser cannon at a tank, and the reflection off the tank's armor will probably cause retinal damage to anyone looking at the tank from close range.
*shrug* Yeah but it's not specifically designed to blind folks. IIRC it's got something to do with maiming, arbitrary distinction I know.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Bakustra »

andrewgpaul wrote:What do you mean by "artillery-grade" lasers anyway? Doesn't that thing mounted in a 747 use a system of mirrors mounted in the ball at the front to aim the beam? The laser generator is bolted to the floor of the plane and the ball gimbals to aim the beam. At least, that's how I understood it.
I'm talking about a laser high-energy enough to mission-kill an armored vehicle, whether by overheating the barrel, or melting treads/tires, or via melting critical parts altogether at the high end. A missile is generally a whole lot thinner and the vast majority is volatile fuel, so it is more vulnerable to a laser, and even a slight hit can still throw the missile off-target. All of these mean ABL is practical with today's lower-power lasers.
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Sarevok wrote:Problem with a distant reflecting mirror is that if a mirror can be built same material can also serve as anti laser armor.
The trick is the size. The reflecting mirror has to be large, taking the beam power over a big area so it doesn't melt. Then, it has to focus the beam into something smaller, so when it hits the target, it is concentrated.

Making this work with all the variables of a warzone, and of course, the atmosphere itself, strikes me to be in the category of easier said than done. Probably easier and cheaper to just spam the defenses with shells.
In addition, and I can't believe I forgot this earlier, if the mirror is intended for high altitudes, it will also need to be curved to refocus the laser, as lasers scatter in atmosphere.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Lasers specifically designed to blind people are outlawed, I forget which specific treaty it is but there was many a long and boring lecture on it in the Army.
I found this after some searching.
Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons (Protocol IV to the 1980 Convention), 13 October 1995

Article 1

It is prohibited to employ laser weapons specifically designed, as their sole combat function or as one of their combat functions, to cause permanent blindness to unenhanced vision, that is to the naked eye or to the eye with corrective eyesight devices. The High Contracting Parties shall not transfer such weapons to any State or non-State entity.

Article 2
In the employment of laser systems, the High Contracting Parties shall take all feasible precautions to avoid the incidence of permanent blindness to unenhanced vision. Such precautions shall include training of their armed forces and other practical measures.

Article 3
Blinding as an incidental or collateral effect of the legitimate military employment of laser systems, including laser systems used against optical equipment, is not covered by the prohibition of this Protocol.

Article 4
For the purpose of this protocol "permanent blindness" means irreversible and uncorrectable loss of vision which is seriously disabling with no prospect of recovery. Serious disability is equivalent to visual acuity of less than 20/200 Snellen measured using both eyes.
So basically, no blinding people on purpose, but if they just happen to get in the way it's not against the rules. IIRC, at the time it was written there WAS talk about designing laser weapons designed only to blind people, so this would be a reaction to that.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Aaron »

Thanks LotA.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by open_sketchbook »

I don't really understand how or why weapons get banned. It just doesn't seem logical.

"Alright, lets figure out a way to kill all these fucks. How about this; a big launcher, tank mounted, point the open end towards the enemy, and we fill it with tungstan wire and ball bearings, so when it fires little bits of metal go everywhere like tiny bullets. Oh! And we'll add some plastic shrapnel in there, so it won't show up on x-ray and the guy will die fifteen years down the line when it migrates to his heart. And lets throw some white phosphorus in there, so that they can be on fire when they are bleeding out. Lets make sure we add some rocket engines, so we can catch them if they happen to be running away."

"Hey, why don't we add, like, some sort of device that makes a really big flash, so we can blind them at the same time!"

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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Because if we build it, they'll build it, and we don't want our guys getting hit with it.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Samuel »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Because if we build it, they'll build it, and we don't want our guys getting hit with it.
It costs more to take care of our wounded than dead soldiers? I'm pretty sure the army is not that cartoonishly evil.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Samuel wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Because if we build it, they'll build it, and we don't want our guys getting hit with it.
It costs more to take care of our wounded than dead soldiers? I'm pretty sure the army is not that cartoonishly evil.
I've always understood that to be a standard fact of military life, and one reason to build weapons that wound as much or more than they kill. Mines designed with just enough power to blow off a foot or blind their victims, etc. But even if you don't do that, it's simply cheaper to bury someone than it is to nurse them to health; and hauling the wounded off to safety takes people and time as well.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by adam_grif »

I don't really understand how or why weapons get banned. It just doesn't seem logical.
Well, ideally it's because both parties agree that it would be best if neither used them, but usually it's just completely stupid shit with no rationale behind it. Expanding rounds being banned for military use by the Hague convention is an example of this.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

adam_grif wrote: Expanding rounds being banned for military use by the Hague convention is an example of this.
IIRC, those and exploding rounds were judged to make wounds worse, unlikely to heal cleanly without making the weapons more effective. Someone with a wound to the arm that will likely eventually heal is just as much out of the battle as someone with a wound bad enough that the arm won't ever be usable again.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by adam_grif »

Well, we can get direct quotes :)
Laws of War :
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.

A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.

The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.

This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.

Done at The Hague the 29th July, 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and of which copies, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers.

(Signatures)
The St Petersburg declaration mentioned banned the use of explosives that weighed less than 400 grams, and weapons designed to "agitate wounded soldiers" or "make death inevitable". Which of these reasons it fell under is unclear.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by andrewgpaul »

So, that seems like making weapons which wound is OK, but making weapons expressly designed to permanently maim isn't allowed. Being permanently maimed becauses you were hit by a weapon which failed its primary purpose, to kill you, is unfortunate, but allowed.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Darmalus »

It makes me wonder how these rules might change in a future where medicine and cloning have advanced enough that nothing but catastrophic brain damage is irreparable. Blinding isn't a very permanent injury when you can get new cloned eyes installed. Those changes would screw over the less wealthy nations that can't get every soldier a new pair of eyes, but I guess the world has always been like that.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Elfdart »

MKSheppard wrote:
[*]Relaxed standards in apparel, grooming, and feeding generally apply to any competent Special Forces Unit. For why this is, see the factoids below.
Did you read this somewhere or are you making it up?

The reason SF units are lax about grooming and apparel in the field is simple: they don't have time to fuss over a hole in their pants, and untucked shirt or uncombed hair when they're many miles behind enemy lines. They don't wear helmets, carry shaving kits or flak vests because they need that much carrying capacity for extra ammo and other absolute necessities. They don't shave or bathe in the field because there's no water to spare. That's why they're taught to extract water from bamboo, or fallen logs, or in the case of these British SF troops, from desert plants.

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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by MKSheppard »

Did you read this somewhere or are you making it up?
Various books over the years. The smelling people before you see them trick is real; the VC had an especially distinctive smell due to the fact that they slathered nuc mam onto everything they ate; and the part about South American troops putting on pretty damn strong cologne before going out on jungle search n destroy missions is from another book the name which escapes me.

(snip description of SF not bathing or shaving in the field)

Even regular infantrymen when they go out into the field stop shaving because they need that water for more important things. The difference is SF elicts that look all the time; rather than out of necessity -- they're not out in the field long enough to grow that beard for example.

And it's funny that you bring up the LRDG in that photo.

Fun factoid; the first SAS mission ever in North Africa; to sneak up and plant bombs on Axis aircraft at airfields was a complete utter fuckup -- everyone in that mission was killed, captured, or wounded; despite their impressive selection training.

Meanwhile, the LRDG at roughly the same time, using just standard people picked and given a rough course in driving in deserts, basic survival skills in deserts, and how to shoot a machine gun from a fast moving vehicle achieved far more success by simply driving down the runway with non-impressive people simply hanging over and hosing the place down with inciendary bullets. :mrgreen:

Right now; I'm re-reading after a very long period the first couple of books that were written by Richard Marcinko and John Weisman together. With Marcinko, it's VERY important to apply a bullshit correction factor -- from what I've heard from people who were around at the same time that Marcinko was in the service, he was a legend -- in his own mind.

However, it does detail that after a while, Marcinko's men stopped wearing the standard US jungle boots, and went to the beta-boots that the ARVN wore, then finally to the kind of rubber tyred sandals the VC wore. Going to the ARVN boots makes a lot of sense -- because in many cases, the VC knew that Marvin the ARVN would just go out, fire a couple thousand rounds into the jungle, then go back into barracks, so they weren't that much of a problem when encountered. So if you took advantage of that by wearing Beta-boots instead of normal US Jungle boots; the VC would see your tracks and go: "Ah, Marvin the ARVN is in the area; everyone calm down, they won't press us too hard." opening them up to an attack by US forces they didn't suspect were in the area.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Mystikal »

ray245 wrote:
Is the stereotypical badass lonewolf doing better than eight or ten of himself a good one that gets annoying and outright ludicrous at times?
What the hell are you trying to say?

The Reverse 100 Ninja thingy. the stereotype that one badass is always more of a threat, more effective, and more useful than a team. It doesn't always apply and sometimes the team is more effective. I'm thinking of something related to the last girl stereotype you see in horror movies.

Like how MC achieved more things than all the other Spartans combined.

And no Wong, I just don't see logic as the ultimate tool. It is a damn useful one but critical thinking and interpretation and allowing your brain to fill in blanks that were left out as a matter of brevity or impatience.

I do suck at logic though.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

The past is the Future

wait aren't the people on planet A Romans, those on Planet B Nazi Supermen with real super powers, Planet C is too busy debating everything because they are an Athenian Democracy, Planet D are Space Viking/Pirates of the Carribean from a world that's still a Frozen icecream cone., the folks on planet E are very Stiff lipped British Empire, and the good guys on Planet F are Spartamericans.....
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:The past is the Future

wait aren't the people on planet A Romans, those on Planet B Nazi Supermen with real super powers, Planet C is too busy debating everything because they are an Athenian Democracy, Planet D are Space Viking/Pirates of the Carribean from a world that's still a Frozen icecream cone., the folks on planet E are very Stiff lipped British Empire, and the good guys on Planet F are Spartamericans.....

CoDominium?
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Among others, actually Drake is the worst offender, as he bases all of his stories off the past. Though Weber having forces based off a bit of Revolutionary War France, England, etc

but, no I've seen plenty of super nazi's in Sci-Fi, not just the CoDom Saurons, and the Draka, I've seen plenty of star spanning empires that acted like colonial England, and I've lost count of the number of times someone has adapted WWII.....
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Samuel »

Space Nazis is a terrible idea. All the falling of the actual Nazi war machine AND the benefit of having your ideas uselessly stupid. Why does superior need if the inferiors can simply improve themselves to match?

Actually that would make an interesting change of pace- a improved group that sought to improve all others in the galaxy instead of looking down upon them.
I've seen plenty of star spanning empires that acted like colonial England,
That only works with wildly different technology levels and a lack of knowledge of developmental economics. It is a bad idea to keep your colonies poor if your neighbors are willing to industrialize theirs and crush you with them.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Simon_Jester »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Among others, actually Drake is the worst offender, as he bases all of his stories off the past.
Though at least he has the decency to tweak the settings. He bases the events on the past, but tends to fool around with the context to suit.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Night_stalker »

Hey space Nazi's can be done well, just look at the Daleks.
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