Is trash-talk inherently misogynist?

[adam_grif]

Being compared to a woman seems to be an universal insult for men all over.

But the reverse is also true

If I told my sister that she looked like a man, she'd take much more offense to that then if I told some of my buddies that they were cocksuckers.

[Darth Wong]

Being compared to a woman seems to be an universal insult for men all over.

But the reverse is also true

If I told my sister that she looked like a man, she'd take much more offense to that then if I told some of my buddies that they were cocksuckers.

That's an appearance-based insult. If you tell a woman that she acts like a man, I don't think she would necessarily find it quite so offensive. Some women seem to make an effort to be perceived exactly that way.

[adam_grif]

Being compared to a woman seems to be an universal insult for men all over.

But the reverse is also true

If I told my sister that she looked like a man, she'd take much more offense to that then if I told some of my buddies that they were cocksuckers.

That's an appearance-based insult. If you tell a woman that she acts like a man, I don't think she would necessarily find it quite so offensive. Some women seem to make an effort to be perceived exactly that way.

Which reminds me, "carpet muncher" is something I've heard flung around as an insult by women to other women before. Quite literally the inverse of cocksucker.

As far as "acting like a man", that's debatable. If you mean acting in a manner not traditionally befitting of women (i.e. the feminist crowd), then that's not going to be insulting. But if you mean being macho, loving monster trucks, drinking nothing but beer and other stereotypically male things, then that's being a "tomboy", which is considered to be an insult by many.

[Hamstray]

Once in a network game I encountered an opponent who's poor choice of words for an insult consisted of a combination of the words "pussy" and "fucker"
I have no idea why Americans think "fucker" is an insult in the first place.
If you want to aggravate someone you better pick insults which your opponent thinks are offensive regardless of what you think, i.e.: words like "fag" or "gay" is best thrown at some homophobe fundamentalist bigot (be sure be in safe distance ofcourse).

[Mobiboros]

I have no idea why Americans think "fucker" is an insult in the first place.

Because it's a shortening of the insult "X-fucker" (Where X is any number of things you shouldn't be fucking. Like "Mother" or "Pig" or the like), that's been contracted down into just "Fucker". However, like someone else already noted the original word has been completely disconnected from it's original meaning.

That said, I don't think all trash-talk are misogynistic. There's a class of insults about male genitals. Jerk-Off ("Wanker" for you Brits), Dickwad (Dickweed, dillweed), Dick (Fuckstick). As well as insulted related to human asses (Asshole, asshat, etc...) as well as animal asses (Jackass, horses ass, etc...).

That's not to say that a lot of trash talk is misogynist, just not all of it.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I want to know why "asshole" is regarded as something you could seriously say in an argument with your opponent in any real sense. When someone calls me an asshole during a row or disagreement, all I hear is "jerk" or "meanie", because that's really all that's being said. Consequently, I don't feel especially cut down - to the contrary, I feel a bit as though my opponent is a bit hurt and at the end of their rope.

[RazorOutlaw]

That's all you think asshole is? Hmm. I normally take asshole to mean somebody who is really self-centered or exceptionally rude when they don't need to be. They might also be clueless but act like they have a clue, so they can be called assholes then too.

Maybe the people you argue with are different, because asshole isn't one of those words I associate with "retreat".

[TithonusSyndrome]

Yeah, isn't that really no different from a jerk or a meanie? It'd be a matter of degrees and hairs to be split at best. Maybe part of it is because I'm not one of those obnoxious loudmouthed fratboy types who goes out of his way to cultivate some tedious ersatz Howard Stern image of being really edgy and offensive and wears it like a badge of pride, and I'd like to think that I'm pretty even-handed in most everything I do, so when someone calls me an "asshole" they just come across as a pouting brat who doesn't like what I have to say for personal reasons.

[Erik von Nein]

I think finding non-mysogynist-based insults kind of misses the point. Sure, there's plenty of insults the world over. The point, though, is that trash-talking ends up being predominantly misogynist precisely because the society most of us have grown up in is also predominantly misogynist, if only because it's been predominantly ruled by men and the nature of masculinity in those cultures.

This isn't particularly surprising, any more than it is surprising that the American south is predominantly racist. Is it changing? Sure.

[TithonusSyndrome]

In an ideal world, perhaps, the only insults anyone would ever utter would be of the kind which we've already got plenty, and unlike the other qualities they're targeting, are actually significant rather than incidental character aspects; insults directed at your opponent's intelligence.

[aieeegrunt]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

I actually did witness this. It was the usual escalation of various insults, this was the final one before a moment of stunned silence, and then the tornado of fists erupted, so I'd say it's actually above the others in impact.

[General Brock]

But it can't be said for cunnilingus. No one ever uses cunnilingus as an insult against men, at least not in my experience. Have you ever seen someone accuse a guy of being a "pussy licker"?

I actually did witness this. It was the usual escalation of various insults, this was the final one before a moment of stunned silence, and then the tornado of fists erupted, so I'd say it's actually above the others in impact.

I've also seen milder incidents, without the violence. The insult can be straight misogynistic in the sense that the punchline is a man not dominant in a heterosexual relationship is 'weak' and less of a man. However, sometimes the 'femininity' of the man's woman is also challenged, or the 'right' of the man to have on her versus another man more capable of asserting dominance.

[RazorOutlaw]

Yeah, isn't that really no different from a jerk or a meanie? It'd be a matter of degrees and hairs to be split at best.

OK, I would also suggest context. Not that the suggestion changes anything. I normally use "asshole" when somebody is being extreme, "jerk" when they have some restraint, and "meanie" when I'm joking but sometimes when I'm serious.

Maybe part of it is because I'm not one of those obnoxious loudmouthed fratboy types who goes out of his way to cultivate some tedious ersatz Howard Stern image of being really edgy and offensive and wears it like a badge of pride, and I'd like to think that I'm pretty even-handed in most everything I do, so when someone calls me an "asshole" they just come across as a pouting brat who doesn't like what I have to say for personal reasons.

You're probably good at cutting through their bullshit, and they might think you're just trying to be right/asshole/jerk. When I was younger anybody who was an aggressive debater was an asshole (or jerk). Sometimes I was right, and sometimes I had nother better to say.

[Akkleptos]

In Mexico we have this sort of sexual-play-on-words or verbal fencing (albur -Wiki) in which the idea is to portray the opponent as weak/submissive/effeminate. This is a very old tradition, which some date back to the Colony days (1521-1824).

An English version would go something like this (the really significant parts are italicised):

A: You are an asshole!
B: You give me... reasons to dislike you
(B is basically telling A he is offering his anus to B, for sexual purposes)

A: A long (one) ... time since I last saw you! (A is telling B that what he is giving B is "the long one", the penis).
B: "¡Te voy a meter un susto!" - I'll put in a scare into you! (B is telling A that the penis referred to by A is what B is going to put inside A)

A: The doughnut is so sugary! (A tells B that only a round orifice is all that B is going to be "putting in")
B: "Me das miedo" ("you're scaring me", but literally, you give me fear, but with "you give me" being the working words here.)
A: "¡Haber ganado la batalla para esto!" ("To have won the battle for this", but, phonetically, "Ah, verga...", for "Oh, dick!", meaning it's the dick that A is going to give B)
B: "¡Me tuerzo de dolor!" ("I writhe in pain!", but phonetically, "Me tuerzo" sounds like "Meto" -I put [or shove] in- obviously referring to the dick previously mentioned by A)

And so on, until someone makes a mistake and scores an "autogol" (an own-goal in football -the real one, soccer for Americans), like responding "Me das..." ("you give me...") when the opponent just mentioned any phallic reference.

How's that for culturally ingrained chauvinism and sexism? In any case, being identified with a passive receiver (the fuckee, if you will) is what is considered an insult. Mexicans have perfected this to an art form level.

[Sela]

I can't speak to whether its necessarily misogynist or not.

That said, going off the OP examples, I definitely think there's a case to be made for it not being mysoginist so much as enforcing gender roles.

To mock a man, tell him he's like a woman. To mock a woman, tell her she's like a man. And I have *DEFINITELY* heard insults of the latter category towards certain hard working, high achieving, 'fit' women. . . . no names mentioned .

If the latter occurs less frequently, its most likely because our society does not favor women rising to higher positions in society (*lots* more barriers to entry in that regard) and as such the relative number of successful men vs successful women to mock is different. Further, our society inherently assumes men to be active and women are to be passive - though to a far less degree than it used to be. And yes, that *is* misogynist, though it has not as much to do with language.

[Ypoknons]

Is this merely limited to english language ? I can at least confirm that what DW outlines holds true applies in all south asian language. Trash talk is exactly as misogynistic as it is in english. I imagine this is same all over the world. Being compared to a woman seems to be an universal insult for men all over.

Not so much in Cantonese. All the serious insults are done with reference to genitalia of the same sex, or direct insult against the mother. So it's actually more implicit, Cantonese targets the man's masculinity directly rather than by reference to feminine qualities. That said, you might also want to look at the historic context of the words, some of them came back found in 'fine literature' dating back to the Ming dynasty...

[Akkleptos]

Maybe the thing is that trash-talking is directed at painting your opponent as a somewhat lesser being (thus the animal comparisons, e. g. ass, and in languages other than English: ox, donkey, worm, slug, et al). And, considering that most Western languages adopted their modern forms while back when women were considered to be inferior to men, then likening an adversary to a woman would accomplish the same effect.

Also, it is likely that back when many of the older insults began to be used, women typically weren't regarded as equal opponents to denigrate (outside the home, that is. Meaning that very few records would exist about abusive language especially tailored to fit female opponents).

And even then, some expressions would still have had an insulting potential when directed to women, as they would have been reminders of a generally subservient condition to those women that, for having antagonised men openly, would have been regarded as "uppity".

[stormthebeaches]

A lot of people on this thread are missing the point. I wouldn't say that trash-talk is misogynist, I'd say that it is homophobic. When you call someone a cock sucker, your not calling him a women, your calling him a homosexual.

[Ethereal235]

A lot of people on this thread are missing the point. I wouldn't say that trash-talk is misogynist, I'd say that it is homophobic. When you call someone a cock sucker, your not calling him a women, your calling him a homosexual.

This is true. Calling a woman a cocksucker isn't really a strong insult. But there's an element of inversion of gender roles as well; if you call a man a bitch, it has a different meaning than if you call a woman a bitch. If you call a man a pussy, you're attacking his sense of worth by attacking his masculinity.

To me, it seems that many of the insults hurled at men are based on the notion that females are weak, both emotionally and physically. It seems rooted in the male-dominance of male-female interactions. Misogyny and homophobia are both big factors, but I don't think you can exclude either.

[SAMAS]

A lot of people on this thread are missing the point. I wouldn't say that trash-talk is misogynist, I'd say that it is homophobic. When you call someone a cock sucker, your not calling him a women, your calling him a homosexual.

Usually is, but may not be.

The whole gist of Trash talking is generally to question your opponent's masculinity. Naturally, accusations linked to femininity or homosexuality are the quickest way to do that.

But then, that's only the case when both talkers are heterosexual males. Women, on the other hand, may insult each other by questioning their femininity.

It's not exactly misogynist. There's nothing wrong with being called a girl/woman... if you are one.

[Elfdart]

At some level isn't a blowjob at least symbolically misogynistic, she is on her knees pleasuring you.

Maybe at the beginning, but every blowjob I've ever received has made me flop onto a chair or the couch or the bed once it gets going. Either that or I'm laying on my back from beginning to end.

A lot of people on this thread are missing the point. I wouldn't say that trash-talk is misogynist, I'd say that it is homophobic. When you call someone a cock sucker, your not calling him a women, your calling him a homosexual.

Much of homophobia is derived from misogyny. The homophobe dislikes gay men because he considers them wannabe women.

[SAMAS]

At some level isn't a blowjob at least symbolically misogynistic, she is on her knees pleasuring you.

Maybe at the beginning, but every blowjob I've ever received has made me flop onto a chair or the couch or the bed once it gets going. Either that or I'm laying on my back from beginning to end.

Plus, she does usually have you by the balls. Literally.

[Elfdart]

Not if I can help it. Getting my nuts grabbed or squeezed hurts like hell. It's also the stuff of nightmares. <ARSE thread may be NSFW>