Four Tie Defenders vs Six Enterprise E's

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-02-17 02:53pm

I seem to remember the E-E missing the Son'a flying boomerangs from point blank range. It's been a while since i saw that god awful movie so i may be wrong.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-17 03:02pm

Range was around 10 kilometers, and she missed with one of two torpedoes.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-17 03:19pm

Not to mention that the Slave 1 missile and the X-Wings' torpedoes have demonstrated range/target acquisition in excess of observed Federation combat range.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-17 03:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Interesting all of your examples involve pulse weapons. You haven't listed a single miss with beam phasers. We have also seen beam phasers used accurately at ranges beyond 10km. We have seen torpedoes uses for precise shots at a range of 40km.
Against fighters? Against multiple targets in a fleet battle? Or are you playing bait-and-switch again?
Mike, find me two examples of TNG and beyond of Starfleet ships missing with their beam phasers.
Alyeska, find me one example of TNG and beyond Starfleet ships hitting small, maneuvering fighters with their beam phasers at anything but point-blank range. The ability to hit a half-kilometre long target, one that is stationary, or one whose flight path you know precisely (eg- a torpedo launched from your own ship) is nothing to crow about.
BTW, I already adressed the issue of the Federation accuracy advantage in another thread. This is what allows Tac-Fighters to be used effectively and thereby giving a significant tactical advantage in combat to the Federation against its enemies.
And yet they don't crush them despite this ENORMOUS advantage in accuracy. Why not?
That is why the Dominion lost in Sacrafice of Angels. They were unprepared to deal with an integrated fleet on the part of the Federation.
If the accuracy disparity is that large, they should lose even with a 5:1 numerical advantage.

Alyeska, please read what I wrote about the fallacious nature of your argument. If you wait until you've got a sure hit before you fire (see "Conundrum", which WAS a fucking beam phaser), then this doesn't say jack shit about your marksmanship. Would you brag about being able to hit a target from 2 metres away 100% of the time? Of course not. So why do you brag about the Enterprise being able to consistently score hits with beam phasers on small targets when they're within 500 metres and moving in a straight line, and act as though this will somehow allow them to wipe out smaller, more maneuverable enemy fighters before they get in missile range?

Mike, I am not debating the topic. The claim that Federation accuracy is bad was made and I proved that false. When someone claims that the Defiant has 60 torpedo launchers, I will prove that false as well. Might want to pay attention to what I am actually talking about. I was providing information to correct a a false viewpoint on the Federation. You should note that I didn't once actually claim the Sovereigns would win. You ought to take neutrality for what it is.

And as to why the Federation doesn't own its enemies. This accuracy is only manifest when it comes to smaller ships. Anything larger then a Defiant class and even the Federations enemies can hit it 90% of the time. Considering that most Federation ships are indeed larger then the Defiant, its easy to see how the Federation is matched. When it comes to hitting smaller targets with beam weapons the Federation has a far higher accuracy level then its enemies. That is why fighter type craft are not used against the Federation.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-17 03:38pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:I dont recall them ever hitting anything particularly far away very accurately, nevermind something only a few meters in each dimension with a small target profile within that and which is most likely manouvering eratically to avoid being hit.....

The Federation has fought at ranges in excess of 10km on several occassions without poor accuracy.

Come to think of it has anything in ST ever manouvered eratically to avoid fire?
IIRC what passes for evasive manouvers in ST should in itself really shoot down any accuracy claims....

Tac-Fighters and the Defiant. When fighting against the Lakota the Defiant pulled some fair manuevers yet the Lakota scored a 100% accuracy rating. Tac-Fighters have flown random paths to avoid Dominion fire on several occasions.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-17 03:42pm

Darth Pounder wrote:I seem to remember the E-E missing the Son'a flying boomerangs from point blank range. It's been a while since i saw that god awful movie so i may be wrong.

The E-E also was not configured for operations within the patch IIRC.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-17 03:59pm

The fact it should need to be is retarded.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-02-17 04:04pm

Lets look at it this way, in the NJO X-Wing Js have flown at speeds of .9c (I'm sure somebody can find a quote to back that up). While these are upgraded considerably from the X-Wings of yesteryear, I think its fair to assume that a TIE/d is as fast, if notfasterthan these ships.

So has a Fed vessel ever hit a 7 meter wide, hyper-manuverable ship moving at .9c? You'd be hard pressed to find some way to speak a "yes" outta that.And I'm not saying SW eapons could either (save for fighters) which would make it even more remarkable. Although I'd guess they would have to slow down to fire torps, it would be a quick momentary thing that wouldn't put them in any real danger. At worst they could strafe it with their laser (ions?) for a while.

That being said it remains that Nem calcs: TIE/Ds don't even waste torpedoes. TM calcs: torp 'em on home.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-17 04:10pm

Alyeska wrote:Tac-Fighters and the Defiant. When fighting against the Lakota the Defiant pulled some fair manuevers yet the Lakota scored a 100% accuracy rating.

But not when the Defiant was changing the direction of its acceleration. It was only hit while in the midst of a turn, or while flying at a fixed course and speed.

Tac-Fighters have flown random paths to avoid Dominion fire on several occasions.

In other words, maneuvering can throw off Dominion fire, showing that TIE Defenders would almost certainly be capable of the same feat with their acceleration and similar size.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-17 04:15pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Tac-Fighters and the Defiant. When fighting against the Lakota the Defiant pulled some fair manuevers yet the Lakota scored a 100% accuracy rating.
But not when the Defiant was changing the direction of its acceleration. It was only hit while in the midst of a turn, or while flying at a fixed course and speed.

Tac-Fighters have flown random paths to avoid Dominion fire on several occasions.
In other words, maneuvering can throw off Dominion fire, showing that TIE Defenders would almost certainly be capable of the same feat with their acceleration and similar size.

Not exactly what I was getting at...

FYI in Insurrection the Enterprise disabled the Sona commandship in two shots. While the range was not exactly great, the fact that they were able to place two precise shots from the same array in such a close time frame actually speaks highly of the targeting systems. It means that the phaser systems can be used to retarget on a new course very quickly and hit said target. Whereas other ST ships can hit targets, Fed ships have been able to hit ship systems even in manuevering combat.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-17 04:39pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The fact it should need to be is retarded.

Well the patch itself is an unusual phenomenon.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-17 04:44pm

Alyeska wrote:Whereas other ST ships can hit targets, Fed ships have been able to hit ship systems even in manuevering combat.

So, the Fed ships have demonstrated targeting on PAR with the Jem'Hadar targeting during "A Time to Stand," when Sisko and company used a JH bug to fire on the weapons systems of a Centaur class ship? I hardly see how this proves your point that UFP weapons targeting is better than the targeting of other ships.

FYI, the United States is developing artillery right now that is designed to put multiple shots in the air on the same target from the same gun, so they will all strike at the same time. That is, frankly, far more impressive than the ability that the E-E demonstrated against the Sona.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-17 04:44pm

Just to clarrify. I am not saying that the E-E will score 100% accuracy against the TIE/d, what I am contesting is that the E-E will be unable to hit the TIE/d. I believe Alyeska is trying to say the same thing.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-17 04:46pm

Alyeska wrote:Whereas other ST ships can hit targets, Fed ships have been able to hit ship systems even in manuevering combat.

So, the Fed ships have demonstrated targeting on PAR with the Jem'Hadar targeting during "A Time to Stand," when Sisko and company used a JH bug to fire on the weapons systems of a Centaur class ship? I hardly see how this proves your point that UFP weapons targeting is better than the targeting of other ships.

FYI, the United States is developing artillery right now that is designed to put multiple shots in the air on the same target from the same gun, so they will all strike at the same time. That is, frankly, far more impressive than the ability that the E-E demonstrated against the Sona.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-17 04:57pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:The fact it should need to be is retarded.
Well the patch itself is an unusual phenomenon.

Which is, in itself, a stupid unscientific contrived Trek plot device. Dumb.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-02-17 05:15pm

I'd love to read the report on that one

Starfleet Admiral - "So Commander Riker Why didn't the Federation Flagship the State of Starfleets Art blow the crap outta those two flying coathangers in the Briar Patch"

Riker "Well sir, Geordi hadn't downloaded the latest software upgrades for our weapons system so the smoke and shit made it hard for us to hit the huge Sona battleship that was as wide as my ship is long"

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-02-17 05:20pm

Darth Pounder wrote:I'd love to read the report on that one

Starfleet Admiral - "So Commander Riker Why didn't the Federation Flagship the State of Starfleets Art blow the crap outta those two flying coathangers in the Briar Patch"

Riker "Well sir, Geordi hadn't downloaded the latest software upgrades for our weapons system so the smoke and shit made it hard for us to hit the huge Sona battleship that was as wide as my ship is long"

Heh, so true. Haven't these guys ever heard of telescopes? Maybe ones that can filter out gasous smoky stuff? Fuck even stormies helmets have 'em! Why doesn't a freaking Feddy SPACE SHIP? Or are they really that dependent on on phasers being able to see them that they really can't aim the gun and shoot it themselves? The Son'a ship wasn'tthatfar behind the E-E.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-02-17 05:23pm

I imagine the Enterprise-E could indeed hit TIE Defenders, at least with phasers. I'd question whether they could hit OFTEN enough and in a short enough time span to breach the TIE/d's shields, however.

I would not expect even a 50% hit rate vs a TIE/d from the Enterprise. As much as I like Star Trek and want to give them the benefit of the doubt (mostly because I love the looks of the ships even if they are impractical :p), I can't see the Enterprise potshotting a TIE Defender flight on an inbound torpedo run at top speed.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-17 05:35pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Just to clarrify. I am not saying that the E-E will score 100% accuracy against the TIE/d, what I am contesting is that the E-E will be unable to hit the TIE/d. I believe Alyeska is trying to say the same thing.

Indeed.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-02-17 06:05pm

Kerneth wrote:I imagine the Enterprise-E could indeed hit TIE Defenders, at least with phasers. I'd question whether they could hit OFTEN enough and in a short enough time span to breach the TIE/d's shields, however.

I would not expect even a 50% hit rate vs a TIE/d from the Enterprise. As much as I like Star Trek and want to give them the benefit of the doubt (mostly because I love the looks of the ships even if they are impractical :p), I can't see the Enterprise potshotting a TIE Defender flight on an inbound torpedo run at top speed.

I think that the E-E would be ABLE to hit TIE Defenders, and at nearly 100% accuracy, but it will have to wait to engage them for clean shots against relatively stationary targets. I don't think it will have the ability to engage them at long distances, while they are maneuvering in a combat situation.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-17 06:06pm

Kerneth wrote:I imagine the Enterprise-E could indeed hit TIE Defenders, at least with phasers. I'd question whether they could hit OFTEN enough and in a short enough time span to breach the TIE/d's shields, however.

I would not expect even a 50% hit rate vs a TIE/d from the Enterprise. As much as I like Star Trek and want to give them the benefit of the doubt (mostly because I love the looks of the ships even if they are impractical :p), I can't see the Enterprise potshotting a TIE Defender flight on an inbound torpedo run at top speed.

I don't see why you can't. On a torpedo run the TIE/d would be flying in a straight line and we all know how UFP ships like to shoot at things flying in a straight line. I believe we would see at least 50% accuracy if not more.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-17 06:08pm

Because...

1.) The TIE/d has shields that well withstand phaser hits.

2.) The TIE/d will fire missiles from easily hundreds of km away.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-17 06:12pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Because...

1.) The TIE/d has shields that well withstand phaser hits.

2.) The TIE/d will fire missiles from easily hundreds of km away.

Okay...

TIE/d can be shot down by fighter laser cannons, correct?

Also, when has a SW fighter demonstrated missile range of 100 of KMs? Do you have a quote?

Maybe HDS does.........

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-17 06:16pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Because...

1.) The TIE/d has shields that well withstand phaser hits.

2.) The TIE/d will fire missiles from easily hundreds of km away.

Tie-Ds are described as being slightly more durable then X-Wings. X-Wings can sustain a handful of shots before the shields seriously buckle. Lets call it 6 shots even from starfighter weapons or LTLs. Thats 7 KT per weapon IIRC. Thats 42 KT to down the shields of an X-Wing. So assume that a Defender can take 8 shots. Thats 56 KT.

Using Mike's rather conservative torpedo firepower of 500 KT we have a base to use for other weapons. Type-12s in ST have shown themselves to be nearly as powerful, if not more so, compared to photon torpedoes. Thats 400 KT+ for the Type-12s of the Sovereigns. They could reduce the power of the arrays and fire them in volume like in Nemesis and still be able to kill the Defenders. Furthermore Voyager has hit an enemy torpedo up to 8 million KM away with one of its own torpedoes. I don't know the episode in question nor have I seen it, though several at SB have mentioned it before. SW proton torpedoes don't manuever towards their target, they just fly straight in.

Now, I fully admit that I am basing this on a 7 KT shot ratio on the Defenders.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-17 06:17pm

The Death Star destroying torpedoes were affective in being programmed to destroy the core.

The Slave 1 concussion missile followed the Jedi Starfighter through an asteroid belt easily dozens to a hundred kilometers. With less manuvering, and a missile dedicated to anti-capital ship work, the range would likely be at least as good.

The targeting display of the missile computer on the Yavin run X-Wings suggests possibly 1000s of km ranges.

Fighter laser cannons reach into the kiloton-range.

Same as the Soveriegn's torpedoes.