SF Military Tropes

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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Elfdart »

MKSheppard wrote:
Did you read this somewhere or are you making it up?
Various books over the years. The smelling people before you see them trick is real; the VC had an especially distinctive smell due to the fact that they slathered nuc mam onto everything they ate; and the part about South American troops putting on pretty damn strong cologne before going out on jungle search n destroy missions is from another book the name which escapes me.
I've heard of Apaches and Comanches who could recognize the "stench of the White Man", but I thought that was a matter of the US Cavalry and Texas Rangers' lack of sanitary habits on patrol -shitting anywhere convenient while the Injuns made sure to bury their waste and hide the other signs that they were in the area. Maybe this is the same principle as British soldiers who claimed they could smell the garlic when fighting French or Italians.

Even regular infantrymen when they go out into the field stop shaving because they need that water for more important things. The difference is SF elicts that look all the time; rather than out of necessity -- they're not out in the field long enough to grow that beard for example.
I meant in the field for weeks or months at a time, not patrols who were flown back to base when their shift was over. The men in my dad's unit grew facial hair when they lived with the Montagnards, but that had more to do with a lack of clean water and the fact that one of the men was black and exempted from shaving because he had extra-kinky facial hair (both often led to ghastly infections: if you think a hard boil on your leg or your ass hurts like hell, imagine one on your chin). SF units are often exempted from certain rules, but it's not because their officers are trying to encourage their men to look a certain way or to hide their smell (going for days at a time without bathing makes it more likely someone will notice you, not less), it's because necessity comes first and petty rules are like extraneous gear: a burden they don't need.

This is no different from submarine crews, who finally had to give up their beards in the early 1980s.

Right now; I'm re-reading after a very long period the first couple of books that were written by Richard Marcinko and John Weisman together. With Marcinko, it's VERY important to apply a bullshit correction factor -- from what I've heard from people who were around at the same time that Marcinko was in the service, he was a legend -- in his own mind.

However, it does detail that after a while, Marcinko's men stopped wearing the standard US jungle boots, and went to the beta-boots that the ARVN wore, then finally to the kind of rubber tyred sandals the VC wore. Going to the ARVN boots makes a lot of sense -- because in many cases, the VC knew that Marvin the ARVN would just go out, fire a couple thousand rounds into the jungle, then go back into barracks, so they weren't that much of a problem when encountered. So if you took advantage of that by wearing Beta-boots instead of normal US Jungle boots; the VC would see your tracks and go: "Ah, Marvin the ARVN is in the area; everyone calm down, they won't press us too hard." opening them up to an attack by US forces they didn't suspect were in the area.
That sounds kinda fishy unless Marcinko's men had really small feet. ARVN boots and uniforms were IIRC made locally to fit their specifications since American hand-me-downs usually didn't fit. Maybe they cobbled ARVN-style soles onto American boots.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Simon_Jester »

If the enemy is used to being able to tell who's who just by looking at the shape of the bootprints, the size may not matter much. There's a very real possibility that they'll just go "whoa, they must have rounded up some really big fuckers in the last draft."
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

He's just saying that most ARVN shoes were too small for Amerikanskis' big foots because Vietnamese are tiny Asian people.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Mystikal »

@the castration-machine

Well, that has a lot to do with nutrition and hereditary traits. And the difference isn't by much, but the guys generally in the uniform back then were rather large and well-fed.

@others

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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Mystikal wrote:@the castration-machine

Well, that has a lot to do with nutrition and hereditary traits. And the difference isn't by much, but the guys generally in the uniform back then were rather large and well-fed.
I don't know. Even well-nourished Asians are pretty small compared to the average Westerner. Which is what that previous guy was saying, that US-issued army boots were too big for the South Vietnamese and thus ARVN shoes usually come in smaller sizes compared to US boots. Considering that most Asians, and presumably also South Vietnamese, rarely ever exceed 6 feet in height and often are below 5'10" in height, while Americans often exceed these heights usually... yeah. Whatever.

Hey Shep, or whoever, can someone provide us with a Vietnam-Era graph from the 1960s-70s showing the foot sizes of Vietnamese soldiers compared to American soldiers? :lol:
@others

The thing to get right with Nazis in Sci-fi isn't plausibility, its style. Simply style that is appealing. It's one of the reason the Empire has such a huge fandom. It had a cool-looking style.
It's not too hard to make a plausible sci-fi group with spiffy fascistic attire and regalia that's Nazi-like. However, despite actual-factual Space Nazi implausibility (as in, actual-factual Nazis in space), it's still a cool trope (ugh, tropes) to play around with. Nazis! In space! Hitler's brains, enlarged into the size of a Dyson sphere, used as a superweapon! What could be more fun than that?
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:It's not too hard to make a plausible sci-fi group with spiffy fascistic attire and regalia that's Nazi-like. However, despite actual-factual Space Nazi implausibility (as in, actual-factual Nazis in space), it's still a cool trope (ugh, tropes) to play around with. Nazis! In space! Hitler's brains, enlarged into the size of a Dyson sphere, used as a superweapon! What could be more fun than that?
Nazis make great villains, because everyone loves to hate the Nazis.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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And have sexual fantasies about them...

Anywho, Nazis in space isn't more implausible than Red Dawn, but with the image of Bill Kaulitz in a spiffy uniform, it is definately more enjoyable to think about.

Another Military trope.

If they are the enemy, they can't aim for shit. Meanwhile, your allies and protagonist are headshotting gods.

Hmmm....


Those who play war by pre-Thirty Years War standards are automatically evil instead of either unable to afford war otherwise or just never understood how "Civilising" war made it anyless horrific.

Let's see...

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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

The antagonists not aiming for shit while protagonists are headshotting gods isn't too far fetched. Someone mentioned the Battle of the Black Sea and the Rangers/Delta guys in Somalia. And don't Saudi tankers refuse to use boresights for their tanks because they think Allah will guide their AFPDSs?
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:And don't Saudi tankers refuse to use boresights for their tanks because they think Allah will guide their AFPDSs?
If that's true, then LOL.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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When it's based on IRL, it is justified when justified. I'm talking about the times where it ain't

Oooh, how about the obstructive bureacrat screwing over the men on the lines or the gov't losing the war?
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Also justified. For example, America lost Vietnam based on burecratic bullshit (Like stopping the hearts and minds campaigns because the government of South Vietnam didn't want the villagers to expect to be treated well under their rule) and home opinion. The US had effectively destroyed the Vietcong by '68 and beat the NVA every time that fought each other directly, and the US pretty much only gave ground because the government told them to lose it.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Mystikal »

Ok, but aren't some tropes just exagerrated truth?
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by adam_grif »

Being a trope has nothing to do with being true or being false.
trope (plural tropes)

1. A figure of speech, such as a metaphor, in which a word or phrase is used other than in a literal manner.
2. (music) A short cadence at the end of the melody in some early music.
3. (music) A phrase or verse added to the mass when sung by a choir.
4. (Judaism) A cantillation.
5. (literature) Something recurring across a genre or type of literature, such as the ‘mad scientist’ of horror or ‘once upon a time’ as introduction to fairytales. Similar to a cliché, but not necessarily pejorative.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Elfdart »

Simon_Jester wrote:If the enemy is used to being able to tell who's who just by looking at the shape of the bootprints, the size may not matter much. There's a very real possibility that they'll just go "whoa, they must have rounded up some really big fuckers in the last draft."
If they were astute enough to notice the treads, then I'll wager they would have noticed larger size and deeper impressions -then put 2 and 2 together. Guerrilla war has a habit of culling out the stupid pretty quickly.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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All war does. War is Darwin proven right.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Night_stalker wrote:All war does. War is Darwin proven right.
Right. I mean all the effects that war brings justs culls only the stupid people :roll: , and that's evolution.

At least learn what Darwin was talking about before pressing submit, you fucking idiot.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Mystikal »

Check out the Darwin awards for some more accuracy.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Mystikal wrote:Check out the Darwin awards for some more accuracy.
I know what they are you fucking twit. Jesus fucking Christ did, either of you idiots ever fucking pass high school biology, or did you just fall asleep and associate some buzzword meanings to the name?
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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I did pass biology. Darwin defined his survival of the fittest as basically: if you are better adapted to your enviroment, you will survive. If not, you will not survive. I was referring to how the weak, stupid, cowardly and incompetant rarely make it far in war. Those who survive are those who are smart and cautious.
If Dr. Gatling was a nerd, then his most famous invention is the fucking Revenge of the Nerd, writ large...

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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Night_stalker wrote:I did pass biology. Darwin defined his survival of the fittest as basically: if you are better adapted to your enviroment, you will survive. If not, you will not survive. I was referring to how the weak, stupid, cowardly and incompetant rarely make it far in war. Those who survive are those who are smart and cautious.
Better adapted to your local fucking enviroment, dumbfuck. And you don't survive, you have a better chance, dipshit. This better chance may or may not allow you to pass on this trait to your heirs. So again, you read something on cocktail napkin and thought it would be a witty phrase.

And your shit about war? The weak, cowardly and stupid as you put it can easily survive a war just like the strong, brave and smart. By not being at the wrong end of the stick, of whatever stick that may be. You have been reading the thread, you noted the shit about supermen aren't better except in some wank filled fantasy. The fact is war is about destroying the other side with overwhelming force and insuring the cannot do the same to you. It has fuck all nothing to do with Darwin's theories. So again, read before just pressing the submit button on some pearl of wisdom you dug from the depths of your ass.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Samuel »

War might have been about being stronger when people fought with melee weapons... except that dying from illness is still chance. Or having your comrades hold the line. Or having a commander who isn't an idiot.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Ghost Rider wrote:
Night_stalker wrote:I did pass biology. Darwin defined his survival of the fittest as basically: if you are better adapted to your enviroment, you will survive. If not, you will not survive. I was referring to how the weak, stupid, cowardly and incompetant rarely make it far in war. Those who survive are those who are smart and cautious.
Better adapted to your local fucking enviroment, dumbfuck. And you don't survive, you have a better chance, dipshit. This better chance may or may not allow you to pass on this trait to your heirs. So again, you read something on cocktail napkin and thought it would be a witty phrase.

And your shit about war? The weak, cowardly and stupid as you put it can easily survive a war just like the strong, brave and smart. By not being at the wrong end of the stick, of whatever stick that may be. You have been reading the thread, you noted the shit about supermen aren't better except in some wank filled fantasy. The fact is war is about destroying the other side with overwhelming force and insuring the cannot do the same to you. It has fuck all nothing to do with Darwin's theories. So again, read before just pressing the submit button on some pearl of wisdom you dug from the depths of your ass.
...Eh. I wouldn't say the notion is that completely off base.

I mean, empirically there's a big difference between combat veterans and novices: even if the survivors aren't the smartest or "fittest" ones, most of the survivors are the ones who learn. If you don't learn to duck, you're at a lot more risk. So there's at least some Darwinian selection going on, but like all Darwinian processes it doesn't operate with 100% reliability, and it selects for a very specialized definition of "fit," one where a stupid coward who learns to dive for cover when the mortar bombs come whistling in is more fit than a brilliant hero who doesn't.

And then there's a factor that isn't modeled in Darwin: the combat-successful get promoted. Random Victor Charlie #50295 may well be a complete moron, but his squad leader is a bit less likely to be, and whoever their main tracker is is even less likely to be an idiot when it comes to tracking. So there's a sort of artificial selection paralleling the natural selection: the stupid don't necessarily die, and the smart don't necessarily live, but the capable tend to wind up making the decisions over time if the war runs long enough.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

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Night_stalker wrote: I was referring to how the weak, stupid, cowardly and incompetant rarely make it far in war.
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Case closed.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Setzer »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:The antagonists not aiming for shit while protagonists are headshotting gods isn't too far fetched. Someone mentioned the Battle of the Black Sea and the Rangers/Delta guys in Somalia. And don't Saudi tankers refuse to use boresights for their tanks because they think Allah will guide their AFPDSs?
I think it applies more to artillery. They just sort of aim it in the general direction of their enemy and assume Allah will handle the rest. It may not be the Saudis, but some Muslim armies.
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Re: SF Military Tropes

Post by Samuel »

And then there's a factor that isn't modeled in Darwin: the combat-successful get promoted.
Which is a horrible method (leadership and skill at arms are two very different things) and why we train our officers.
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