The Stargate franchise has awful space battles.

[Vympel]

To repeat what I posted in the SGU S1E11 "Space" thread:-

* Lame space battle. Sorry, but Stargate has never been able to pull off spectacular space battles. Anyone who ever lists a Stargate space battle as their favorite is obviously on drugs, because they've always been pretty terrible. They show no artistry in direction or visual noise whatsoever.

They're always the same: unacceptably static, visually boring, with terrible sound effects (worst sound effect ever: Wraith weapons fire) and uninteresting special effects. This was no different. Destiny's main weapon firing was the most anticlimactic thing ever. Everyone knows how to make at least a decent space battle except the people who do Stargate.

Just sucks balls. Move the fucking camera around. Add some visual flavor. Do some interesting things, for fuck's sake. It's CGI, you can do whatever you want.

This is the thing that made me do a mental retrospective of the numerous space battles etc in the Stargate franchise and see if there was anything worthwhile there, since I found this space battle to be just so damnably poor.

I couldn't think of a single one. In fact, I'm going to define the most often seen traits of the general shittyness of Stargate space battles, in no particular order.

1: No originality / imagination / artistry etc with the camera. Every space battle is terribly static, with the participant ships mostly just sitting there or moving very little, exchanging fire, with very pedestrian camera shots that don't engage the viewer. Star Wars mastered the art of making an exciting space battle back when they didn't even have CGI and their capital ships were just background scenery models. Its all about movement. Do something - either with the camera or the ships. Battlestar Galactica manages more dynamism and visual delight out of its enormous, lumbering warships than Stargate does.

2: Awful sound effects. In terms of space battles, Stargate has some of the worst sound effects in science fiction history. Weapons sound effects are supposed to be iconic, evoking the power and nature of the weapon firing. Whether its the booming echo of a turbolaser, the high-pitched buzzsaw whine of a phaser, the pulse of a photon torpedo, or the heavy clunk of nBSG's cannons, you appreciate and connect with the sound effects.

Whoever designs the sound effects for Stargate has no understanding of this whatsoever. Wraith DEWs have to be the worst sounding weapons in science fiction history. Listen to this shit:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJGQ_df5a34

Goa'uld motherships aren't far behind.

Now in SGU, once again the ears are assaulted by terrible sound effects. The Destiny's main gun drops down - fires - and we're treated to the same tinny, synthetic, fake, weak as piss type of sound effect that infests Stargate like a bad rash.

3. Poorly executed visual effects. I have no particular problem with the utter lack of imagination that is evidence in what Stargate's weapons fire looks like - its hard to make an original energy weapon - however, they obviously have no conception of how to make the visual effects of combat evoke a visceral reaction from the viewer.

First of all - an example of proper effects:- Link - watch from 1:07. When a shell or missile impacts a ship in nBSG, you as the viewer can feel it. Basestars disintergrate as shells rip into them, exploding in a very "real" fashion. It looks like you'd imagine it would look.

By contrast, Stargate weapon impacts look and feel fake. No consequences are ever particularly evident on the ship under fire. There's a shitty sound effect, the "poof" of the weapon against the ship, and we move on. There's never a feeling of real damage or cost. Oh, but wait - there is - but it sucks:-

4. Sparks flying everywhere on the bridge. Holy shit the sparks. In every space battle, virtually the moment combat starts, ridiculously voluminous showers of spark fly out of every nook and cranny remotely near a main character, for no discernible reason. This is a very cheap way to make the viewer feel like danger is happening. How did nBSG handle it? The very, very rare spark, maybe some shattered glass and most of the time slight rumbling.

5. Poor music. This is self-explanatory. Compared to the proper full orchestra of Star Wars or nBSG's wardrums, Stargate's music is a complete non-entity.

[Alyeska]

There were a couple of space battles I rather enjoyed. The Daedalus vs 12 Hiveships. It was less of a classic space battle, but I thought it was fairly well done. It was nice watching Humans kick Wraith ass, if for a little bit.

I also enjoyed the battle where the Daedalus and the Orion try and take on the 2 Hiveships.

And of course the very first Atlantis space battle, a dogfight between the Puddle Jumper and the Wraith Darts was entertaining.

[Gramzamber]

Aside from the visual aspects, I've always been irritated by how Stargate battles have usually been either one-sided hit and miss affairs.
You know how an Asgard mothership would instantly vaporize ha'taks, and then Anubis ha'taks were totally immune to Asgard motherships, Tollan ion cannons would either explode a ha'tak in one shot or not do anything at all no matter how many times they fired, the Ori had kill-everything beams and couldn't be dented, EVER. Oh and the Wrath uberhive.
So it's rarely a question of tactics or anything like that, just who has the biggest gun and the best shields and who gets the next best superweapon that tears through the last one like a wet tissue.

[CaptJodan]

2: Awful sound effects.

This is particularly noticeable from Destiny's weapons, though you're right about the Wraith as well. The sound effects for weapons are getting progressively worse as time goes on, rather than better as I would have expected. The sound effect for Destiny seems terribly underwhelming, and coupled with their effects so far, which are also underwhelming, makes for just a bad sequence.

To be fair with Universe, we are talking about a broken ship which is controlled by autopilot and thus isn't going to be dancing around much. When 304s sit motionless in space for no reason and get shot, especially when we see they are capable of far better things (like Carter's use of the Phoenix...one of the better battles I'd mention), that's when I get a little ticked.

Aside from the visual aspects, I've always been irritated by how Stargate battles have usually been either one-sided hit and miss affairs.

This would be my primary objection as well. There's very little thought to tactics most of the time, and it's generally more a question of who has the better gun or the better shields, like you said. When a successful tactic is developed, it's very quickly neutralized by the other side.

I think a lot of the space battle problems that come from Stargate are partially because the show is supposed to revolve around our four team heroes (for the older series. Too early to say why Universe can't get it together). You'll notice that it's generally always one of the four major cast members who come up with the good ideas of sneaky tactics to get them out of a jam, not the man responsible for tactics on his own ship. Thus Stargate battles become a game of "gotcha", assuming both parties are somewhat equal (Wraith vs. 304).

Edit: Putting a quote in. Geez, I'm bad with this today.

[NecronLord]

Whoever designs the sound effects for Stargate has no understanding of this whatsoever. Wraith DEWs have to be the worst sounding weapons in science fiction history. Listen to this shit:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJGQ_df5a34

[...]

3. Poorly executed visual effects. I have no particular problem with the utter lack of imagination that is evidence in what Stargate's weapons fire looks like - its hard to make an original energy weapon - however, they obviously have no conception of how to make the visual effects of combat evoke a visceral reaction from the viewer.

Well, in short, de gustibus non est disputandum. It's entirely subjective. For me, BSG's spacebattles were often quite poor. But that's probably because of the much greater focus on fighters.

But the idea that stargate has no visual effects that are distinctive; the first battle you linked there has not one but two, if you watch the full thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wiGVnmu0K4

The Daedalus shooting every missile cell at once, and one of the larger drone launches in Atlantis.

Personally, I quite like the Wraith ships' weapons fire sound effects. Not so keen on the railguns.

I'd also say that other notably good SG ship to ship weapons have appeared several times, though mostly as one-offs. Offhand:

• Anubis' Eyes Weapon, in both modes, though the latter was very much a Death Star derivative.
• The Asuran sattellite weapon was pretty good, I'll say, visually. Bonus points for incorporating a Stargate.
• The Asgard plasma beams certainly given an impression of being badass.
• As do the Ori ones. Both these and the Asgard beams are annoying in how easily they stomp everything, but they do give a serious impression that they can do some hurt.
• The ultimate SG beam weapon though, is probably the Ancients one, from The Seige Part One Unfortunately we never saw it again, say, on Aurora class ships. The Wraith guns' sound effects are also, gallingly, much better in this scene.

The drones themselves, are of course, excellent.

That said, as for Destiny, well. Let's just say I'm pretty sure, from Mallozi's comments elsewhere that Destiny has 'weapons cooler than anything we've done before' that those aren't its entire compliment.

[Stark]

Holy shit; Vympel has revealed that SG shows use GalCiv2 sound effects for weapons.

[Cecelia5578]

I think its important to distinguish between SG1 and SGA battles; I agree that in general SG1s battles suck. SGA's, on the other hand, I'd rate a solid B.

Granted its all subjective, but I thought they did a much better job than SG1 did.

[Oskuro]

Holy shit; Vympel has revealed that SG shows use GalCiv2 sound effects for weapons.

Hey, maybe they used an enhanced version of their space battle system, I mean, those were riveting space battles in that game

<seriously> I think most of the suckiness of space battles in TV shows is because of the relative lack of experience that the crews have with that type of material. They mostly have to deal with people walking around the same corridor, and with rather bland camera angles, no wonder then that something as dramatically different from a filmmaking perspective as a dynamic space battle eludes them.

[Norade]

I think the whole franchise has been lackluster for its entirety. The heroes are mostly idiots, and the show doesn't ever seem to get that the gates are a choke point and should be treated as such when defending it. Atlantis had a few bright spots in away missions, but recurring bad guys and wraith that should be a non-issue to a competent foe with knowledge of them made me stop after season 1. The space battles actually seem like a breath of fresh air compared to random primitives with weird superstition of the week format the show usually graces us with.

[Chris OFarrell]

There are some Spacebattles I liked, I have to admit, even if I generally agree with the fact that most of them suck both visually, and by the 'tactics' used. And honestly, I find some of the better battles WERE battles where the ship wasn't being thrown around like a ragdoll by enemy weapons fire, with consoles exploding Star Trek style all over the place. It was actually a refreshing change of pace. And I find a lot of the energy weapons effects in Stargate quite awesome, the huge Ancient slicer beam that cut that Hiveship in half was wicked cool, the Asgard plasma beam weapons and 'go somewhere else' beams are just awesome...

1. Reckoning II; the giant free for all battle against the Replicators and Ba'als fleet. The first part worked, with the long range sort of siege trading fire between the ships as both sides played for time, before withdrawing, and then suddenly, the Replicator fleet jumps in and starts a gigantic brawl that looked rather awesome.

2. Be All my Sins remembered. With the Wraith, humans, and Traveler fleets going up against the Asuran homeworld. There were things I would have done differently, but I liked it because it showed the Asgard weapons really tearing the hell out of the Asurans and, more usefuly, STILL putting through the idea that they were just playing for time and couldn't hold back the enemy forever. They didn't need to shake the ship around, they didn't need to have exploding consoles, but they still managed to come across with the idea that they were steadily losing ships (Wraith and Traveler of course) and had to make this thing happen fast.

And FRAN activating into ReplicatorGodzilla was awesome, as was a good ole fashioned planet exploding.

3. Fallen; the F-302 vs Anubis and his Super Mothership, because it worked. Use the hyperdrive to jump under his shields, trench run and hit the thermal exhaust port while dodging the turbolasers, the whole thing was a really fun homage to Star wars.

None of those battles are perfect with a lot of things 'wrong' with them, but honestly, I could find the same things 'wrong' with just about any battle in Babylon 5, Star Trek or Star Wars.


That said, there are a few really really bad battles.

The worst has to be the Daedalus vs Michaels cruiser when they get Teyla back.

In all seriousness, I have NEVER seen a more contrived POS in Stargate. The writers suddenly realize they have made the 304's so ungodly powerful thanks to their Asgard weapons that it should be able to just laugh off (and in fact DID laugh off) the firepower of a Wraith cruiser for hours on end. So they came up with a whole slew of plot devies to cripple it and gave everyone an extra big helping of stupid pills, and made the technology do stuff that utterly contradicts countless previous episodes, just to make it a 'fair fight'. Seriously, the writers of that episode sounded like they were writing a f*#(ing Star Trek episode from a LOT of the things in it, even outside of the battle.

[Temujin]

This is something that was always in the back of my mind while watching Stargate, but I never really gave a lot of thought to. However, while I wouldn’t say that all of the battles are bad, they are generally mediocre.

I think its important to distinguish between SG1 and SGA battles; I agree that in general SG1s battles suck. SGA's, on the other hand, I'd rate a solid B.

Granted its all subjective, but I thought they did a much better job than SG1 did.

I agree; IIRC SGA seemed to devote more time to space battles in their plots, particularly in the later seasons, hence the slightly better level of quality that they seemed to put into them.

1. No originality / imagination / artistry etc with the camera. Every space battle is terribly static, with the participant ships mostly just sitting there or moving very little, exchanging fire, with very pedestrian camera shots that don't engage the viewer.

By contrast, Stargate weapon impacts look and feel fake. No consequences are ever particularly evident on the ship under fire. There's a shitty sound effect, the "poof" of the weapon against the ship, and we move on. There's never a feeling of real damage or cost. Oh, but wait - there is - but it sucks:-

Both of those statements remind me of what I generally hated about most Next Gen era Trek space battles: Lots of wallowing around and lots of exchanges of rather lame fire only rarely resulting in visible damage period, let alone anything remotely interesting or realistic looking.

4. Sparks flying everywhere on the bridge. Holy shit the sparks. In every space battle, virtually the moment combat starts, ridiculously voluminous showers of spark fly out of every nook and cranny remotely near a main character, for no discernible reason. This is a very cheap way to make the viewer feel like danger is happening.

Yeah, unfortunately this has become the clichéd norm. Thanks STNG.

[adam_grif]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLCVIAkwQKU

The Battle of Asuras was one of the better, from memory. At least we got lots of things happening on screen

4. Sparks flying everywhere on the bridge. Holy shit the sparks. In every space battle, virtually the moment combat starts, ridiculously voluminous showers of spark fly out of every nook and cranny remotely near a main character, for no discernible reason. This is a very cheap way to make the viewer feel like danger is happening. How did nBSG handle it? The very, very rare spark, maybe some shattered glass and most of the time slight rumbling.

This is extra stupid when sparks fly, conduits exploding all over, then they report that shields are holding at forty percent.

[Batman]

It's not like damage happening (in places far away from where the enemies' fire actually landed) while shields are still nominally up is something Stargate actually invented. Trek exploding console syndrom?
And while I won't pretend that I've done an exhaustive analysis on how Stargate shields work I AM reasonably confident that shield breaches that resulted in damage to the ship despite the shields being still nominally up and at a mentionworthy percentage of their peak power is something Stargate has done pretty much since they actually got around to space battles.

[CaptJodan]

It's not like damage happening (in places far away from where the enemies' fire actually landed) while shields are still nominally up is something Stargate actually invented. Trek exploding console syndrom?
And while I won't pretend that I've done an exhaustive analysis on how Stargate shields work I AM reasonably confident that shield breaches that resulted in damage to the ship despite the shields being still nominally up and at a mentionworthy percentage of their peak power is something Stargate has done pretty much since they actually got around to space battles.

It's actually pretty fucking inconsistent, to the point of maddening. Shields were below 20% at the later stages of the Michael's cruiser attacking the Daedalus attack in season 5, and yet all you hear is the thump thump of weapons against shields, but everyone sits around relatively calmly to discuss the situation.

In other times, the shields can be much higher percentage wise and still have sparks flying, sometimes even with the same basic weapon system. (I can understand if the Ori beam causes sparks on the first hit even with a ZPM because the beam is probably just too much brute force, but if two different Wraith attacks start sparking at random times, it gets annoying)

Really, we could do without the sparks. SGU's first episode was probably the most sparky we've seen in a long time for a 304. And while that shit was going on, Carter said they'd leave in 2 minutes...as if all that damage wasn't even a big problem...they were going to get shot up like that for 2 more additional minutes. Two minutes, and half the bridge is already a mess. Really?

[Stargazer]

2: Awful sound effects. In terms of space battles, Stargate has some of the worst sound effects in science fiction history. Weapons sound effects are supposed to be iconic, evoking the power and nature of the weapon firing. Whether its the booming echo of a turbolaser, the high-pitched buzzsaw whine of a phaser, the pulse of a photon torpedo, or the heavy clunk of nBSG's cannons, you appreciate and connect with the sound effects.

Whoever designs the sound effects for Stargate has no understanding of this whatsoever. Wraith DEWs have to be the worst sounding weapons in science fiction history.

I find it odd that you're complaining about sound, since in space there shouldn't be any sound.

[adam_grif]

Maybe the Tau'ri are just really shoddy with their electrical wiring, and when they have to pump more juice into the shields, the sparking is caused by this

[Stargazer]

Maybe it's intentional by the ship designers, in order to communicate to the crew just how dire a situation is and get them off their asses?

[Cecelia5578]

I thought the Battle of Asuras was a clear homage to the battle over Coruscant at the beginning of ROTS.

For a tv show, not bad at all.

[Mystikal]

What I can't get is the exploding consoles. It would be more alarming and realitstic if they started randomly flickering on and off when the shields tarted to fail.

[Revy]

Some battles I liked that I don't think have been mentioned include the lost Asgard tribe fight against the Traveller rescue ship, in which the two ships fly vertically up (from our POV) whilst spinning around each other and firing constantly, offset only by the fact that the Asgard ship lost that fight.

I also liked the fight when the Atlantis/Wraith alliance meant to spread the retrovirus gas went to hell, and the Daedalus sits quite a fair distance from a Hiveship exchanging fire with it, whilst Sheppard leads a squad of 302's against a swarm of Wraith darts. And then he ends up doing a Millenium Falcon by latching onto the hull of the Hiveship.

What gets me about the stupid exploding console cliche though, is that Stargate poked fun at it themselves in the episode 200 (I think it was) where Martin pitches one of his movie ideas that basically takes the micky out of every Star Trek bridge/battle scene, and then Carter protests "That's Star Trek!". And yet Stargate is guilty of doing this anyway. You know, like when they poked fun at the trend to make shows 'Darker, Edgier, with a younger cast' and then went and did it anyway with Universe. I don't get it - they make fun of something and then think it's a good idea to go ahead and do it anyway? Ehhh.

[NecronLord]

In all seriousness, I have NEVER seen a more contrived POS in Stargate. The writers suddenly realize they have made the 304's so ungodly powerful thanks to their Asgard weapons that it should be able to just laugh off (and in fact DID laugh off) the firepower of a Wraith cruiser for hours on end. So they came up with a whole slew of plot devies to cripple it and gave everyone an extra big helping of stupid pills, and made the technology do stuff that utterly contradicts countless previous episodes, just to make it a 'fair fight'. Seriously, the writers of that episode sounded like they were writing a f*#(ing Star Trek episode from a LOT of the things in it, even outside of the battle.

Especially given that there's a simple way to make that battle better. Just have Michael's cruiser equipped with a salvaged drone system linked into the Wraith telepathic interface. Daedalus shows up, bang, horrible surprise. No contrivance. The story really wouldn't have been affected by giving Michael a badass ship. That'd also make Michael look cool and intelligent, which he needed later on.

[Gramzamber]

It's a constant problem in later Stargate that they give one side an overwhelming advantage, related to my hit or miss critcism then they spend the rest of the time coming up with a way to mitigate that, either by having characters be stupid or magically making that advantage not so great.

Of course with the Wraith it was the reverse since they started out with an overwhelming disadvantage and the rest of SG:A was spent trying to make them into a credible threat, usually by saying "oh noes they're going to Earth!!" yeah, okay. So what? Borrow a ha'tak or two and blow them up. Oh yeah remember how they're basically the weakest ships in all of Stargate? Oh you're afraid they'll expose the big secret that there are aliens which should dhave been exposed when Anubis attacked? That was worth sacrificing the Orion for, yessir!

Then this lead to the ham fisted finale of making the Wraith uberhive invincible to everything, even Asgard doom beams and city-ship drones just because it's plugged into a ZPM. Yeah, whatever.
Still the day was saved because no amount of ZPMs can change the fact that the Wraith are morons. Yay I guess.

[adam_grif]

Then this lead to the ham fisted finale of making the Wraith uberhive invincible to everything, even Asgard doom beams and city-ship drones just because it's plugged into a ZPM. Yeah, whatever.

Wraith hive ships were designed and constructed by Tim Taylor, which is why all of their weaknesses can be made up for with MORE POWER.

[Mystikal]

Where's Burt when you need him?

Oh wait, isn't he currently uniting the Orkz for one final great Waaagh that will conquer the Milky Way and eventually to Supplant the inadequate Gork and Mork? Surely he isn't the GEOM, because the galaxy hasn't exploded due to...issues...

[Sky Captain]

What freaks me out most with exploding consoles/sparks flying everywhere trope is that equipment affected usually keeps on working despite that it should be totally wrecked with circuit boards melted, wiring fused together after being subjected to electrical arcing capable of sending showers of sparks everywhere.