SGU "Space" [season 1 episode 11]

[NecronLord]

The ship is still pretty much locked down, in terms of what the crew can and can't do. If the ship really thought these were ancients and thought these people deserved access, it wouldn't be responding with one security measure after another keeping them locked out.

Why are we claiming it can think now? Make rational decisions off its own back? Balls. It can respond to typical crises (power, air, etc) but now that there are a crew on board controlling the weapons, why would it take that out of their hands?

They put in the code (or hell, find the bridge) they get access to main systems. They haven't put in the code; it's that simple. It's not locking them out because they're not Ancients or something.

Which is not something the AI is likely to be able to figure out.

Therefore its masters decide. Simple.

I'm talking about a ship that is, undeniably, being controlled by an autopilot that won't relinquish control, even when the crew wants it to stay put until all team members are back from a trip through the gate. The AI isn't likely to go protecting innocents.

THEY CANNOT TALK TO THE COMPUTER, THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO LOG IN.

Why are you assuming it's that bright? It's not an AI (or rather, not a sapient one) it's a computer program.

The ship has already shown itself to adapt to unexpected circumstances. It's shown some basic intuitive response to threats against its passengers. A ship that's flying around a void and might drop into someone else's space and come under attack is a pretty basic possibility there. You're saying the ancients are smart enough to make an AI (and yes, I'm calling it this) that responds to air, water, food, and power crises, (the first three of which the ship shouldn't have to be programmed for if the ship truly thought they were ancients, because they would take control and do this themselves), but were too stupid to program in a "jump away or shoot back if attacked" routine? Really?

Too subservient to take over from its masters off its own bat. NON SAPIENT.

The crew has control of the guns. What you're saying is that it should take that off them, and pre-empt whatever decision they make. Why would it be programmed to do that?

As for jumping away, presumably it would do that if it were in actual danger of serious damage or destruction.

To what are you referring? They presumably created the Asurans well after this ship was launched, so apparently very advanced AI wasn't a problem later on. I don't know what you're actually referring to, though.

The Asurans. The only time we've seen the Ancients deal with sapient non-organics, they freaked out and bombed the planet.

You're using a Proof by Example fallacy to claim all Lantean shuttles are automatically good at combat.

Look, clearly the ship has combat capability, or it wouldn't be armed. But this shuttle is far, far older than a Jumper, and can't even keep up with it's mothership, something a jumper can do.

A Jumper can keep up with its mothership? What makes you think that? A Jumper doesn't have hyperdrive, nor is there any reason to think it can accellerate to the same speeds as say, an Aurora class.

It's simply far more likely that the aliens, for whatever reason, were more interested in losing many of their pilots than they were at destroying the shuttle. Which goes back to stupid aliens.

What, than that the Ancients' technology is comprehensively superior?

In TNG's "Who Watches the Watchers" the Federation had a hidden (stealthed) base on a planet so they could observe the local intelligent life without interacting or interfering with it. What makes you think the ancients don't use their stealth mode for this purpose?

Granted

Really, the inclusion of a stealth mode (which has yet to be canon) is far less proof that they anticipated that they may need to defend themselves than the fact that the shuttle is armed at all, something that is now canon.

Frankly, I don't get the bitching about the shuttle. It's shielded. There's really no reason to think the pods could hurt it. Even if it sat still and they all shot it at once. Ancient technology is clearly superior enough that they're willing to fight and potentially die to get it.

[CaptJodan]

Why are we claiming it can think now? Make rational decisions off its own back? Balls.

You're the one claiming the ship knows (or thinks) they're ancients, not me.

It can respond to typical crises (power, air, etc) but now that there are a crew on board controlling the weapons, why would it take that out of their hands?

Because they haven't still taken full control yet, and the ship is under attack.

Honestly, if I want to think of a reason why the ship didn't fire back itself, it'd be far more plausible to me to think that the AI is programmed to defend itself, but that it already senses it has too much damage to risk opening fire without causing itself further harm. Thus, the humans override the AI's decision, and open fire anyway.

THEY CANNOT TALK TO THE COMPUTER, THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO LOG IN.

Grade A bullshit. First episode proves you wrong there.

Young: You're telling me the ship knows that we're in trouble.
Rush: Yes, because I told it we were.



Clearly they CAN talk to the computer, and the computer can, in a limited fashion respond to such a crisis and give solutions. I'm not talking about it being smart or being able to work independently, clearly the Ancients programmed this contingency into the AI's framework. But I am saying that it should also have a contingency for coming under attack.

The crew has control of the guns. What you're saying is that it should take that off them, and pre-empt whatever decision they make. Why would it be programmed to do that?

Why is it programmed to allow control of the weapon systems BEFORE it allows control of where the ship goes? Why did the ancients allow people who walk on to shoot anything they like, but not to change course or hold the countdown until they're sure they want to jump? If we assume the ship knows people are on board, then why is its security so tight around internal sensors (the humans don't have access to this clearly), but again, allow for the weapons?

I'd like to see the ship have a default "I'm going to either start shooting or run unless you take some action here" style of command from the ship, because a great deal of the ship is still automated.

As for jumping away, presumably it would do that if it were in actual danger of serious damage or destruction.

The ship was taking damage. It doesn't appear to have any automated repair ability. Are you seriously suggesting that it's programmers felt the ship should jump away only after it's shields fail completely? To what purpose?

The Asurans. The only time we've seen the Ancients deal with sapient non-organics, they freaked out and bombed the planet.

And that event happened well after the launching of Destiny. They weren't afraid enough to build the Asurans in the first place, so building a sentient AI (which I'm not claiming it is, just fairly intuitive) on Destiny isn't out of the question. Bad example.

A Jumper can keep up with its mothership? What makes you think that? A Jumper doesn't have hyperdrive, nor is there any reason to think it can accelerate to the same speeds as say, an Aurora class.

It's never had issue with catching any ship it's wanted to, sans hyperdrive which I wasn't referring to at all. Destiny's shuttle does.

What, than that the Ancients' technology is comprehensively superior?

I'm not denying it's probably superior. The shuttle 1 shots the alien ships, the alien ships can't one shot kill the shuttle. But it doesn't display superior maneuverability in combat, nor superior speed. In these areas, it seemed lacking, and the aliens didn't exploit it. They stood in front of the shuttle and got fried. In fact, it's display when we see it near the Destiny comes off as far less capable than a 302.

Frankly, I don't get the bitching about the shuttle. It's shielded. There's really no reason to think the pods could hurt it. Even if it sat still and they all shot it at once. Ancient technology is clearly superior enough that they're willing to fight and potentially die to get it.

So now you're claiming that the shuttle's shields are superior to Destiny's? Destiny was taking damage, and not JUST because it was using it's weapon systems, draining power from the shields. Those weapons were potent enough, and even Young says that Scott wouldn't stand a chance in a direct assault. The aliens were decoying the shuttle. It's in the dialogue. The implication throughout the episode is that if the aliens flew competently, the shuttle wouldn't have survived.

[NecronLord]

You're the one claiming the ship knows (or thinks) they're ancients, not me.

No I'm not. I'm suggesting it's programmed with the expectation that the crew would be the one that's meant to be there - ancients. Why would it ever react as if they were not? (Not counting any intruder detection systems that may lock out a non-human)

Grade A bullshit. First episode proves you wrong there.

Young: You're telling me the ship knows that we're in trouble.
Rush: Yes, because I told it we were.

Obviously I'm talking in reference to the main systems shitwit. They can't get those to do what they want.

Why is it programmed to allow control of the weapon systems BEFORE it allows control of where the ship goes?

I didn't write this show. That is one of the most bizzare things about it. For whatever reason, the guns are unsecured.

It just is.

I'd like to see the ship have a default "I'm going to either start shooting or run unless you take some action here" style of command from the ship, because a great deal of the ship is still automated.

So would I, but for whatever reason, the weapons system is already unlocked (perhaps the Aliens managed to do that when they were on board) or never was locked down.

The ship was taking damage. It doesn't appear to have any automated repair ability. Are you seriously suggesting that it's programmers felt the ship should jump away only after it's shields fail completely? To what purpose?

In this situation where the crew have decided to fight.

And that event happened well after the launching of Destiny. They weren't afraid enough to build the Asurans in the first place, so building a sentient AI (which I'm not claiming it is, just fairly intuitive) on Destiny isn't out of the question. Bad example.

Yes they were. They didn't know the Asurans were going to become sapient. They were trying to make a nanoplauge. It "took them by surprise" and they later "concluded it had gone too far" then bombed the planet and obsessively purged all references to the Asurans from their database. I think that counts as freaking out.

It's never had issue with catching any ship it's wanted to, sans hyperdrive which I wasn't referring to at all. Destiny's shuttle does.

I can't think of any episode where they actually chase anything Ancient moving away from them in a Jumper. The only possible instance is Travellers where the Aurora class is stationary throughout. You're making this up.

In fact, it's display when we see it near the Destiny comes off as far less capable than a 302.

My thoughts on exactly how capable a 302 is are on record. I doubt it is less capable than a 302.

So now you're claiming that the shuttle's shields are superior to Destiny's?

Way to strawman. The enemy capship didn't shoot at the shuttle.

Destiny was taking damage, and not JUST because it was using it's weapon systems, draining power from the shields. Those weapons were potent enough, and even Young says that Scott wouldn't stand a chance in a direct assault. The aliens were decoying the shuttle. It's in the dialogue. The implication throughout the episode is that if the aliens flew competently, the shuttle wouldn't have survived.

I would have to review the episode to confirm or deny that. Nonetheless, the shuttle has shields that stand up to their weapons. Destiny is also shooting some of the pods. How is it so remarkable that they don't destroy it?

[NecronLord]

Okay, rewatching the battle now. For a start, why are we assuming the all of pods was actually armed? There are at least two designs of pod we've seen (Air's one differed substantially from the one in Justice) and any of them could be an unarmed boarding variant.

In fact, the one that Chloe sees land, doesn't appear to visually have the guns that the ones shooting earlier on did (they boasted ) which does imply that either the weapons must be deployed from a covered housing, or that the boarding pods are not armed and there are separate fighter units.

[Siege]

I don't really have a problem with the guns being unsecured. The ship was going to go where no Ancient had gone before and no Ancients would be aboard for quite some time, ergo whatever it could be shooting at wouldn't be Ancient -- so why would they bother locking down the guns? Sure it might not be wholly safe, but I think given their history we can conclude the Ancients weren't too invested in health and safety regulations.

The only thing that's truly locked down so far seems to be the one thing the Ancients would be interested in, namely the course of the ship and everything to do with it. Presumably that's locked into following in the wake of the gate-seeder ships, because otherwise the Destiny would be pretty useless.

[NecronLord]

given their history we can conclude the Ancients weren't too invested in health and safety regulations.

Actually, they're pretty good. Aside from the Kawoosh, which is pretty glaring, but does serve to stop inbound travellers smacking into things, usually. But the stargate itself and other bits of ancient tech are pretty foolproof.