Stargate vs ???

[adam_grif]

Uhuh. So you would have no problem with them doing the same to Nebraska, or wherever it is the 304s are built?

The "doing it to my enemy is acceptable them doing it to me is not" attitude is practically a requirement for any conflict at all.

Weir's 'reasonable' plan was to use a PWARW and destroy their entire civilization.

Wasn't that Rodney's plan? I got the impression that Weir was just "on board" with it because it involved not destroying them immediately to buy time to negotiate peace and render the need for it moot.

[NecronLord]

The "doing it to my enemy is acceptable them doing it to me is not" attitude is practically a requirement for any conflict at all.

And we should have sympathy for aggressors scheming and plotting genocide why?

Wasn't that Rodney's plan? I got the impression that Weir was just "on board" with it because it involved not destroying them immediately to buy time to negotiate peace and render the need for it moot.

WEIR: Weapon or not, they’re sentient. Negotiating with them could buy us enough time to get the P.W.A.R.W. up and running.

"They're sentient. Let's distract them and kill 'em all."

[adam_grif]

"They're sentient. Let's distract them and kill 'em all."

And because she said this to the room full of people all totally on board with killing them, and she's a diplomat by trade, you automatically assume that she genuinely wanted to destroy them all if a peace could be reached?

Weir also says:

No, but maybe they’ve decided that we are more trouble than we’re worth; that the threat of our A.R. weapons is enough to keep them at bay.

...

This mission is a mistake.

It seems pretty obvious to me that she's just trying to placate Ellis. The "it's an ineffectual first strike, it's dangerous" stuff was her trying to appeal to the military leader in him, given that "they shouldn't be destroyed, we should just negotiate peace" didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of working.

And we should have sympathy for aggressiors scheming and plotting genocide why?

Isn't that exactly what you're proposing anyway, given that the Asuran's sole lot in life is to commit genocide against the Wraith?

[NecronLord]

It seems pretty obvious to me that she's just trying to placate Ellis. The "it's an ineffectual first strike, it's dangerous" stuff was her trying to appeal to the military leader in him, given that "they shouldn't be destroyed, we should just negotiate peace" didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of working.

Indeed. The fact that even she is unable to frame an argument to her superiors that doesn't include some genocide is pretty damning of the Tau'ri as a group, is it not?

Isn't that exactly what you're proposing anyway, given that the Asuran's sole lot in life is to commit genocide against the Wraith?

They've rather obviously developed beyond their 'lot in life' - the obvious difference is that the Wraith pretty much have to die. That's the trouble with being a vampire; you need to murder to live. Them's the breaks.

[adam_grif]

Indeed. The fact that even she is unable to frame an argument to her superiors that doesn't include some genocide is pretty damning of the Tau'ri as a group, is it not?

She already did, it just didn't work. It's damning of the leadership, not necessarily the group as a whole.

Keep in mind that this is a very pragmatic decision on their part. What they know is that they're a race of human form replicators (not exactly off to a good start), they have tried to destroy the human base of operation in the Pegasus galaxy purely out of spite, twice, the second time including a genocide of their own against the last remaining Lanteans, once again purely out of spite, and in direct violation of their base programming (i.e. they're doing whatever the fuck they want now).

The decision to react to a significant military buildup by this faction is not really unreasonable.

[NecronLord]

She already did, it just didn't work. It's damning of the leadership, not necessarily the group as a whole.

Keep in mind that this is a very pragmatic decision on their part. What they know is that they're a race of human form replicators (not exactly off to a good start), they have tried to destroy the human base of operation in the Pegasus galaxy purely out of spite,

They had no interest in the expedition, and were going to allow them home, until they learnt that they came from a Lantean settlement. They have no reason to attack Earth, unless possibly they felt like destroying the antarctic outpost.

twice, the second time including a genocide of their own against the last remaining Lanteans, once again purely out of spite, and in direct violation of their base programming (i.e. they're doing whatever the fuck they want now).

The attack in Return Part 2 would not really count as genocide in any sane schema, everyone they killed was a uniformed combattant of a fleet that's tried to wipe them out once.

And they had no intention of destroying Atlantis there, they were going to take it back to Asuras instead. The person planning to destroy Atlantis in Return 2 is Landry.

The decision to react to a significant military buildup by this faction is not really unreasonable.

With no efforts at negotiation, and with the end objective of genocide.

[adam_grif]

The attack in Return Part 2 would not really count as genocide in any sane schema, everyone they killed was a uniformed combattant of a fleet that's tried to wipe them out once.

Except that the Lanteans were just trying to set up shop in Atlantis and rebuild their destroyed civilization, and the Asurans came in and wiped them all out, not because they had made any aggressive military actions or could genuinely threaten the Asurans, but solely because they were lanteans. I'd call that genocide.

They had no interest in the expedition, and were going to allow them home, until they learnt that they came from a Lantean settlement. They have no reason to attack Earth, unless possibly they felt like destroying the antarctic outpost.

We know that they hold onto a grudge, and we know that specifically being programmed not to do something isn't a barrier to them doing it. Are you suggesting that there's no chance that they would have come after the Tau'ri? Maybe not Earth, but perhaps the Atlantis expedition? They've been engaged in active combat with the Tau'ri on two occasions, and been defeated both times. From Earth's perspective, them performing a sudden, extremely rapid military buildup is extremely dangerous, and it's far safer for them if they do the whole horizon thing than to just do nothing and let them amass an enormous fleet of Warships that can each individually beat out a 304 in single combat (this was pre-unending iirc). They can strike now and prevent them having that advantage, or they can just hope that they won't be hostile with their unstoppable super-fleet. If they aren't, fine. If they are, there's jack shit we could do about it.

Again, this decision was pragmatic, and not entirely unreasonable.

[NecronLord]

Except that the Lanteans were just trying to set up shop in Atlantis and rebuild their destroyed civilization, and the Asurans came in and wiped them all out, not because they had made any aggressive military actions or could genuinely threaten the Asurans, but solely because they were lanteans. I'd call that genocide.

Why are you assuming that the Triia was not one of the ships bombarding Asuras? Eleven ships were present in that on screen, most of them Aurora class. How many do you think the Lanteans had at any stage in the war? A couple dozen, maybe?

We know that they hold onto a grudge, and we know that specifically being programmed not to do something isn't a barrier to them doing it. Are you suggesting that there's no chance that they would have come after the Tau'ri? Maybe not Earth, but perhaps the Atlantis expedition? They've been engaged in active combat with the Tau'ri on two occasions, and been defeated both times. From Earth's perspective, them performing a sudden, extremely rapid military buildup is extremely dangerous, and it's far safer for them if they do the whole horizon thing than to just do nothing and let them amass an enormous fleet of Warships that can each individually beat out a 304 in single combat (this was pre-unending iirc). They can strike now and prevent them having that advantage, or they can just hope that they won't be hostile with their unstoppable super-fleet. If they aren't, fine. If they are, there's jack shit we could do about it.

Again, this decision was pragmatic, and not entirely unreasonable.

It wasn't entirely unreasonable. But their intent was nonetheless open genocide, and their first option was naquadah enhanced nukes all over the shop, shouting down all efforts at negotiation.

And then they sucked up the consequences in the episode, that's kind of the point; their hubris and militarism has gotten to such a point that they're willing to go in guns blazing against a technologically superior industrial giant's shipyards. Their very own Space Pearl Harbour. And they get slapped down within hours with a casual effort by the Asurans. That's why it's such an excellent episode. The Tau'ri are far from perfect in it, the point of First Strike is that the leadership of the Tau'ri is, at best, becoming misguided. They freeze Weir et al out of vital information, give inflexible orders, are bent on genocide, and finally, make a decision best described as 'ineffectual.'

Also, they name a ship after someone who's surely a Goa'uld. Okay, that one's unfortunate implications, not deliberate writer's decision, but it just bugs me.

[adam_grif]

Why are you assuming that the Triia was not one of the ships bombarding Asuras? Eleven ships were present in that, at least, how many do you think they had at the end? A couple dozen, maybe?

Does it matter if they were? It was how long ago? They're also the last of their kind, and killing them is automatic genocide. Which is the whole point.

But their intent was nonetheless open genocide, and their first option was naquadah enhanced nukes all over the shop, shouting down all efforts at negotiation.

Not disputing that.

And then they sucked up the consequences in the episode, that's kind of the point; their hubris has gotten to such a point that they're willing to go in guns blazing against an industrial giant's shipyards, their very own Space Pearl Harbour. And they get slapped down within hours with a casual effort by the Asurans. That's why it's such an excellent episode. The Tau'ri are far from perfect in it.

Except the Imperial Tau'ri Empire manage to triumph over the sleeping Asuran giant using their very own Wunderwaffe(s).

Man, Stargate is fucked up!

[NecronLord]

Why are you assuming that the Triia was not one of the ships bombarding Asuras? Eleven ships were present in that, at least, how many do you think they had at the end? A couple dozen, maybe?

Does it matter if they were? It was how long ago?

No more than one hundred years, probably less. Special relativity, any frame of reference is equally valid, including the Triia's. Seriously though, why should that matter.

You probably think Roman Polanski is too old to go to jail for his crime, too.

They're also the last of their kind,

No they're not. The Ancients still exist, as the most powerful known species, in the current time period. They are Y'know, ascended?

Except the Imperial Tau'ri Empire manage to triumph over the sleeping Asuran giant using their very own Wunderwaffe(s).

Man, Stargate is fucked up!

Yes, they escaped via act of plot. If Season four had followed on from First Strike, instead of having the Tau'ri basically get away with it, and the Asurans randomly don evil hats and kick the shit out of the occasional primitive (I do have a fanfic esque theory on their reasoning, but anyway) it would have been both darker, and far better.

There's a lot to dislike in metaplot in Stargate. Not least the amount of stuff the Tau'ri manage to pull off. It's getting Draka esque. I'm still pissed at them killing Larrin's ship off-screen in an otherwise excellent episode.

Part of why I like SGU, is that ha'taks can now apparently kick the shit out of 304s, and it's likely that the Tau'ri will have to suck it up and not be the most advanced race other than the Nox in their entire galaxy.

[adam_grif]

No they're not. The Ancients still exist, as the most powerful known species, in the current time period. They are Y'know, ascended?

Ok conceded on that part, but they're the last with this mortal coil, shall we say. It'd be like trying to plead that it's not genocide if you're a Christian because some of your victim's relatives went to heaven. Revenge isn't an acceptable motive for wiping out the last living members of a society.

You probably think Roman Polanski is too old to go to jail for his crime, too.

If the Asurans just wanted to Jail them for War Crimes we wouldn't be having this discussion

There's a lot to dislike in metaplot in Stargate. Not least the amount of stuff the Tau'ri manage to pull off. It's getting Draka esque. I'm still pissed at them killing Larrin's ship off-screen in an otherwise excellent episode.

Oh god, I'm still pissed that they resurrected the fucking Asgard to act as one-shot villains. If they don't play a major role in some future part of the franchise, or at least in the Atlantis movie, I'm going to be further pissed.

Part of why I like SGU, is that ha'taks can now apparently kick the shit out of 304s, and it's likely that the Tau'ri will have to suck it up and not be the most advanced race other than the Nox in their entire galaxy.

No, 3 of a new, undisclosed kind of Ha'tak can outmuscle a 304 when they take it by surprise

Anything more and we're making assumptions. It might just be Lucian alliance that has the tech, as well.

[NecronLord]

Ok conceded on that part, but they're the last with this mortal coil, shall we say. It'd be like trying to plead that it's not genocide if you're a Christian because some of your victim's relatives went to heaven. Revenge isn't an acceptable motive for wiping out the last living members of a society.

What does 'living' matter? An ascended being appears to have a far better quality of life than a mortal ancient. Even if we accepted that, if by some weird chance the last say, Chinese people were a bunch of torturers and labour camp guards, would you let them off?

If the Asurans just wanted to Jail them for War Crimes we wouldn't be having this discussion

You know, technically, we don't know that they did kill Helia. All that was said was 'all of the ancients were killed, their commander attempted to conceal this as I probed her mind' - that context (people who may be at large in the city) may not necessarily mean she (or anyone else captured alive) was killed. For all we know, she actually spent the next year cooling her heels on Asuras until McKay's ridiculous blob blew it up. Given the Asuran strike team's rather decent behaviour elsewhere (read, not killing people who're trying to sabotage their new cityship out of hand) it wouldn't even surprise me.

It seems unlikely, of course. But most of those Ancients presumably died fighting, and were not executed.

No, 3 of a new, undisclosed kind of Ha'tak can outmuscle a 304 when they take it by surprise

Anything more and we're making assumptions. It might just be Lucian alliance that has the tech, as well.

We shall see.

[adam_grif]

What does 'living' matter? An ascended being appears to have a far better quality of life than a mortal ancient. Even if we accepted that, if by some weird chance the last say, Chinese people were a bunch of torturers and labour camp guards, would you let them off?

It'd definately be more complicated than KILL 'EM ALL. Especially since we have no clue whether they were specifically involved, or just part of the same organization. Even if they were specifically involved in some shady things, it might be worth considering giving them special dispensation or delaying "punishment" unhtil after their society is back up on its feet. All of the other Chinese torturers have died from a horrific plague or skipped town on them.

It seems unlikely, of course. But most of those Ancients presumably died fighting, and were not executed.

Absolutely no way to know.

We shall see.

For President and Planet! Rarr!!

But on a more serious note, as much as I don't like the SGC effectively having carte blanche to exploit the galaxy totally unchallenged, I also hate the constant back and forth of the phlebotinum of the week, one side gaining a new superweapon and the other side launching a daring commando raid, or the SGC finally gets a big tech advantage, but oh no Anubis has superships! They've been doing it for 10 seasons, and it's stale. The Asgard legacy seemed to be a very final thing that would give them a very long term advantage with a lot of leg room to expand and become a huge intergalactic player, and it kind of cheapens them murdering the Asgard if it was just another in a series of technological back-and-forths.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I would agree with that. It always was a back and forth. Anubis comes up with Kull Warriors, but look! we can make a disruptor that kills them! The Tollan offer Earth Ion Cannon tech, but Anubis gets new freaky shields that stpo em cold!

Alternatively though, IF they left it as one side having a constant tech advantage, it would get stale too. There are only so many "victory against all odds" stories you can stomach, and thats what it would be become if the enemy had the advantage, and if the SGC held all the super-tech, there wouldnt be much of a series either

[adam_grif]

Was about to create a new thread, but then I remembered this one existed...

do we have quantification for SGverse time dilation? A lower limit for how much things can be slowed down inside a bubble relative to outside of it is a factor of 10^4, the value given by Thor for the time dilation trap they used on the replicators. I was thinking that this would be a very interesting technology to take advantage of in a Vs debate.

Given the 10^4 value, one second inside the bubble becomes 2.77 hours in the real world. One minute becomes 6.94 days.

So a few questions:

- Can it be pushed higher on the "slowed internal bubble" direction? We know it can be pushed in the "hastened internal bubble" direction, thanks to the SG-1 finale, where the space of a couple of seconds in the real world (or maybe less than a second, I'm not sure, been a while since I watched it) we had 50 years pass inside the bubble.

- How long will it take for the people inside the bubble to realize what's going on and shut it down? I know the replicators managed to reverse it, but I have no idea how long that took.

- Would other 'verses be able to reverse it like that, or was that something only the replicators could do thanks to large quantities of assimilated Asgard tech?

- Can it be shut down simply by blasting it?

Most importantly of all:

- Can the SGC replicate the tech?

I'm thinking yes they can, since the Asgard core has it built in.

A pretty good tactic might be to surround the verse connecting wormhole with asteroids and all sorts of other things giving of anomolous readings with naquadah and neutronium content (so the asgard tech doesn't give itself away to magitech scanners), then have an Asgard drive core dilating the wormhole region as much as it possibly can, for as long as possible. If there's a spare ZPM to be found, that will be massively useful for this.

It it's as simple as "they can go as hard in reverse as they can forward", then the SGverse, using a ZPM, can buy themselves 50 years in the real world before the thing shuts itself down due to lack of power. On tactical timescales, you might be able to squeeze the Asgard core into some kind of missile form (if that's the only way to replicate the time dilation tech), and use it in a tactical fashion, halting enemy craft to a stand still for several minutes, allowing Tau'ri forces to concentrate fire, regroup, retreat and so on.

They'd be rigged to self destruct if the Tau'ri was going to retreat, obviously.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Interesting thought. Not sure if the tactical idea would be al that effective though. Its a good idea certainly but it strikes me as a huge waste of resources which could be better spent on more beam weapons, more naqada enhanced nukes and so on

As a strategic weapon it would be devastating. If you could accelerate it enough you could make it into a supernova weapon:

1. fire missile at unwanted star
2. crank field up so that time runs faster, billions of times
3. Hold as long as possible until accelerated star uses up all its fuel and explodes/expands as red giant

Obviously it may not be possible to accelerate time in the field enough, given the lower limit for the Replicator accelerated field of a factor of 10^2

However, a lot of tech in Stargate seems to be made more powerful by simply supplying more energy to it (weapons, shields, even engines and hyperdrives which seems a bit weird) so if enough power can be found, wahey, goodbye enemy solar system

Or maybe use it to collapse the wormhole itself?

[Darth Wong]

Time manipulation technologies never make any sense in sci-fi, and Stargate is no exception. Why aren't people in "time dilation bubbles" blinded by the incredibly bright light coming in from outside? Why the fuck does the outside world look perfectly normal from inside, despite the fact that the incoming wattage of light should be far greater?

[Zac Naloen]

However, a lot of tech in Stargate seems to be made more powerful by simply supplying more energy to it (weapons, shields, even engines and hyperdrives which seems a bit weird) so if enough power can be found, wahey, goodbye enemy solar system

Stargate Hyperdrives seem to work on the principle that the more energy you can dump into opening the window the faster you go.

I assume that the principle behind this is that Hyperspace has layers, and the deeper into hyperspace you go the quicker the "shortcut" you take.

[Xon]

Time manipulation technologies never make any sense in sci-fi, and Stargate is no exception. Why aren't people in "time dilation bubbles" blinded by the incredibly bright light coming in from outside? Why the fuck does the outside world look perfectly normal from inside, despite the fact that the incoming wattage of light should be far greater?

From memory, there have only been 3 time dilation bubbles which have run faster in Stargate.

• The replicators, orbiting a blackhole and it was still light enough for SG1 to see.
• The village in SGA which was in a fast-time bubble which had it's own internal day/night cycle anyway.
• The 3rd was when everyone was inside the Odyssey which had it's shields up at the time and the shields have been shown capable of converting direct starlight at less than an 1/3 of an AU into something humans can handle.

[Darth Wong]

From memory, there have only been 3 time dilation bubbles which have run faster in Stargate.

• The replicators, orbiting a blackhole and it was still light enough for SG1 to see.
• The village in SGA which was in a fast-time bubble which had it's own internal day/night cycle anyway.
• The 3rd was when everyone was inside the Odyssey which had it's shields up at the time and the shields have been shown capable of converting direct starlight at less than an 1/3 of an AU into something humans can handle.

OK, let's look at that:

1) If you're near a black hole, there's a shitload more radiation to deal with, not less.

2) How can a village have its own internal day/night cycle? There's a star which is also in this "time dilation field"? Why doesn't the village look strange from the outside?

3) Again, why doesn't the ship look strange from the outside?

There was also an episode I happened to catch on TV when they were walking through a maze of booby-traps which were composed of small "time distortion fields" in which people became super-slow (and yet, they still looked normal). Looking it up on the Internet, it appears to be "The Quest Part 1".

The fact is that sci-fi writers are too stupid or careless to even think of the question. It simply doesn't occur to them that if you made a local "field" which slowed down time 10x, then anyone inside that field would see light from the outside world at 10x normal brightness. Also, why aren't there blood pressure problems when a person is entering the field? At some point, he must be partway in the field and partway outside. It would be funny to see some guy enter a "time dilation field" and drop dead of an aneurysm.

[Xon]

OK, let's look at that:

1) If you're near a black hole, there's a shitload more radiation to deal with, not less.

Reviewing the episode I was wrong, the Asgard had yet to collapse the star into a blackhole (yet another thing doesn't make sense). The skys had complete cloudcover, but the question then is why is there enough atmosphere left to support human life.

2) How can a village have its own internal day/night cycle? There's a star which is also in this "time dilation field"? Why doesn't the village look strange from the outside?

The entire thing was under some sort of shield, painting the interior with a false sky isnt exactly beyond the abilities of the Ancients. As for the doorway and the exterior view looked normal, but they SGA team muttered something about a cloak. Given the thing was hidden, that does make some sort of sense. Entering the doorway had the same shield/cloak ripple effect Stargate loves plastering all over the place.

Once Shepard does go through, the rest of the team doesn't see him through the door way. They keep seeing the same static, fake, image.

On the plus side when they dropped a probe through the top of the time-bubble, it was ripped to shreds by the differences in how parts where experiencing time.

3) Again, why doesn't the ship look strange from the outside?

We don't actually see the ship from outside the time-bubble in the ep. But the entire ship is unnaturally luminous to start with, and the stars look identical even from random windows. So no real idea beyond the SFX not doing a complete job.

There was also an episode I happened to catch on TV when they were walking through a maze of booby-traps which were composed of small "time distortion fields" in which people became super-slow (and yet, they still looked normal). Looking it up on the Internet, it appears to be "The Quest Part 1".

After rewatching, there is the point raised "why are the leaves moving"(inside the field) and the response from plot-device Carter was probably an illusion. Honestly, painting a 3d hologram over something is well within demonstarted feats of the Ancients.


But you are right, a lot of times writers just don't put enough thought into these concepts. Stargate sure as hell isn't an exception.

[NecronLord]

At some point, he must be partway in the field and partway outside. It would be funny to see some guy enter a "time dilation field" and drop dead of an aneurysm.

To their credit, they thought of that one. The 'village' example was located in a large crater, with only one specific tunnel, terminating in some kind of supertech doorway, allowing one in. Passing through that still caused pain (IIRC), but a probe sent in by air was "ripped apart by tidal forces"

[adam_grif]

Time manipulation technologies never make any sense in sci-fi, and Stargate is no exception. Why aren't people in "time dilation bubbles" blinded by the incredibly bright light coming in from outside? Why the fuck does the outside world look perfectly normal from inside, despite the fact that the incoming wattage of light should be far greater?

We know it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't really matter. For purposes of Vs debates, it functions as it does in-universe, and we assume that since these problems have not been shown to exist, they don't occur, for whatever reason.

[Darth Wong]

At some point, he must be partway in the field and partway outside. It would be funny to see some guy enter a "time dilation field" and drop dead of an aneurysm.

To their credit, they thought of that one. The 'village' example was located in a large crater, with only one specific tunnel, terminating in some kind of supertech doorway, allowing one in. Passing through that still caused pain (IIRC), but a probe sent in by air was "ripped apart by tidal forces"

They didn't really think of that. The tidal forces only mean that they think there was some kind of strong gravitational gradient at the interface. They're probably just cribbing some astrophysics stuff that they heard and partially understood, based on the idea that there's some kind of event horizon. The actual problems inherent to altered passage of time itself did not occur to them.

[NecronLord]

They didn't really think of that. The tidal forces only mean that they think there was some kind of strong gravitational gradient at the interface. They're probably just cribbing some astrophysics stuff that they heard and partially understood, based on the idea that there's some kind of event horizon. The actual problems inherent to altered passage of time itself did not occur to them.

I'd not worry about that particular phrase; Stargate misuses the term 'event horizon' pretty hideously. The rippling puddle thing is consistantly called an 'event horizon' even though it's plainly nothing of the sort - they even use radios through it. It certainly doesn't denote any kind of gravitational effect in the device's operation. I'm pretty sure this is another example where it has nothing whatsoever to do with gravity and their use of the phrase 'event horizon' is just stup unusual, and that the intended cause of the damage is the problems of one part of the probe being aged at a 250:1 ratio.

'Event Horizon' in Stargate seems to be technobabble for 'surface of something interesting' or what Red Dwarf would call with, ironically better science: 'a swirly thing.'