Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

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Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

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NPR Audio at the link. Transcript:
Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

by Richard Knox

April 5, 2010

A generation ago, up to 4 million U.S. children got measles every year. Hundreds died, and thousands were left with permanent brain damage. Thanks to vaccination, those days are over, at least in this hemisphere. But health officials worry about the growing number of children who are vulnerable when somebody brings measles from another part of the world.

It happens regularly. Vancouver is trying to contain a measles outbreak sparked when foreign travelers visited for the Olympics, carrying two different measles viruses from Asia.

The first recognized infections — in two Canadians and a visiting American — occurred around the Olympic closing ceremonies. "Downtown Vancouver was shoulder-to-shoulder on many days of that period," notes Dr. Monika Naus of the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control.

So far, measles has spread to 16 people in Vancouver, Naus says. Half of them are in one large unvaccinated household. The parents reject vaccination.

"It's not a religious issue," Naus says. "A friend of the family who had anti-vaccination sentiments was influential in convincing them not to get vaccinated."

Many parents who refuse to get their children vaccinated worry that vaccines — and the one for measles, mumps and rubella in particular — cause autism. It's a belief that persists despite years of studies and expert panels that find no scientific link.

Health officials say there are growing pockets of vaccine refusers in communities across the land. The numbers are not great. But these pockets of "intentionally unvaccinated" children give the virus more opportunities to spread when it does arrive.

And even if the number of measles cases in each outbreak is kept small, the arrival of measles disrupts lives and forces public health officials into high gear to contain the damage.

Ask Karen Waters-Montijo, chief of immunization at the San Diego County health agency. She and her colleagues, including officials at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, write about the impact of a 2008 measles outbreak in the April issue of the journal Pediatrics.

Waters remembers the February day when a public health nurse called to report a confirmed case of measles: a 7-year-old boy who had picked up the virus during a family trip to Switzerland.

As unlikely as it seems, Switzerland is one of those European countries where measles vaccination rates have fallen considerably below 95 percent — the level public health officials say is necessary to prevent measles from circulating in the community.

When Waters heard about the case, she says, "I just about fell off my chair. The child had two siblings, attended public school. The family wasn't vaccinated. And in fact, there were a lot of unvaccinated children at the school, as well."

They were "intentionally unvaccinated," meaning their parents had filed Personal Beliefs Exemption forms to opt out of the vaccinations that are required for schoolchildren. Parents of almost 10 percent of the students at Patient Zero's school had signed PBE forms.

That may not sound like much. But no virus is more contagious than measles. "If a measles-infected person walks into a room with 10 uninfected people," says Dr. David Sugerman of the CDC, "nine of them will get infected."

Moreover, anyone who goes into that room within the next two hours after the infected person has left is likely to get measles, too.

So Waters and her colleagues were alarmed when they learned that it had taken a week before the measles infection of Patient Zero was diagnosed. In the meantime, he had exposed many people in doctors offices and clinic waiting rooms, as well as in school. He had also infected his siblings, and they had exposed many others.

"It was slow to be recognized, and there's a good reason for that," Waters says. "We hardly ever see any measles cases. Most doctors have never seen a case." Once the first patient was diagnosed, moreover, health authorities were slow to be notified.

Once they found out, health authorities kicked into gear, tracing everybody who came into contact with the first cases — and everybody who was in contact with them. That net captured people who got exposed (and, in some instances, infected) at supermarkets, circus performances, fairgrounds and a Hawaii-bound airplane.

It added up to 839 people. Of those, 73 were unvaccinated children — 25 whose parents chose not to get them vaccinated, and 48 children under 12 months who were too young to be vaccinated.

To limit the spread of the virus, San Diego County officials asked parents of those 73 children to keep them at home. Many of them were pretty unhappy about that.

"Imagine, you start off on a normal day," Waters says, "and you're getting ready to drop your child off at their child care place, and you're greeted by a public health nurse who says your child has been exposed to measles, and we'd like you to go home and be there for the next three weeks while we monitor you for symptoms."

Parents of exposed children who believed in vaccination were incredulous and angry, she says: "They said, 'What do you mean, people don't get vaccinated? Why is this happening?' "

In the end, the San Diego outbreak was confined to a dozen children. No big deal, you might think — except that it upended a lot of lives, and the county spent $10,000 for each of those cases in order to keep the virus from spreading more widely. That, and the fact that more than 95 percent of the general population was immune, kept the outbreak far more limited than the previous San Diego measles outbreak in 1991, when there were 1,000 cases and three deaths.

Afterward, Waters and her colleagues looked into who the vaccine refusers were and what their attitudes toward vaccination were.

They're college educated, higher-income and believers in the power of a "natural" lifestyle — things like organic food and prolonged breast-feeding — to keep their children's immunity strong enough to ward off vaccine-preventable diseases.

And they just don't believe it when government officials like Karen Waters say vaccines don't cause autism.

"It is wrapped up in their attitudes about government," Waters says. "I don't think they think I'm the enemy. I think they think I'm well-intended but misinformed."

Many communities have pockets of vaccine refusers. So the United States and other countries with growing numbers of "intentionally unvaccinated" people are likely to see more outbreaks.

There's bound to be occasional importation of measles from countries with circulating virus. These aren't only developing nations; they include Ireland, Germany, Israel, Japan and the United Kingdom, where measles had been eliminated until large numbers of parents started opting out of vaccination programs.

CDC officials are watching the Vancouver outbreak closely, as neighboring Washington state has sizable populations of vaccine refusers.

"If measles crossed the border into those populations, there's a potential for a sizable outbreak," says Dr. Jane Seward of the CDC.

Back in San Diego, Karen Waters is still trying to persuade skeptical parents to get their children vaccinated. She says refusers are not bad guys in this drama.

"You know, these are very nice people," she says. "They care a lot about children, as I do. We all want safe vaccines. We all want healthy children, and we all want answers about autism. It's unfortunate there's a group of people who are off on this track, that believe vaccines are at the root of this problem."

So far Waters hasn't changed many minds. She knows of a thousand families who have refused to get their kindergartners vaccinated. That's 100 more since that last San Diego measles outbreak.
Well, surprise surprise. :roll:
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Exact same thing happened in the UK, since this is ground zero for the movement. Herd immunity hit all time lows post-vaccination programme, and many schools had their first instance of measles or mumps in decades. Sadly, it seems these people won't take a hint even when the lives of children are being put at risk. A sad example of the power of ignorance and special interest groups combining with pseudoscience.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Spectre_nz »

A very similar thing happened in New Zealand in the last month or so. I was rather startled to find out our vaccination rates are some of the worst in the developed world - apparently only around 75% of the population is vaccinated against measles.

Surprise surprise, there are clusters of measles outbreaks going around this year.

The cherry on the top; one outbreak started in an isolated community that 'doesn't believe in modern medicine' for some dumb reason. No one there had any sort of vaccination for anything. One of their members came back from missionary work in Africa or Asia with measles (lol, could have been worse) and now practically the whole community has been infected. I hope it really kicks the crap out of them, hopefully it will instill a little respect in the efforts of modern medicine...
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Liberty »

Not so long ago there was an outbreak in northern Indiana among homeschooled children after one of them went on a missions trip to eastern Europe. Honestly, I'm surprised the article didn't mention homeschooling. Homeschoolers aren't required to get vaccinations the way that public school students are; in addition, homeschool families are especially prone to believing stuff like the anti-vaccine shit, and a surprising number of them don't get their kids vaccinated. My parents delayed all of our vaccinations, for instance, and tried to convince me not to vaccinate my daughter (who is at the moment pulling all of my ID/credit/medical cards out of my wallet after unloading my purse - gotta go).
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by JediToren »

And look at all the comments on the article. They're all anti-vaccine. One of them calls vaccines "tobacco science," another says she had measles in the 50's and it was no big deal and then trots out the tired old argument of "why are rates of autism climbing?" Another goes on about how vaccines aren't 100% effective therefore they don't work.

There needs to be widespread death from these preventable diseases (as in millions) before people will wake up, and maybe not even then.

We have so many of these kinds of people in the US from every point along the political spectrum. Global warming deniers, creationists, teabaggers, anti-nuclear greenpeace idiots, organic farming people, and anti-vaccers, etc. To them, evidence only matters if it supports their belief (not theory) and anything else is dismissed with one word "CONSPIRACY."

It's hopeless. You have to rub their fucking nose in it before they will figure it out.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Liberty »

JediToren wrote:We have so many of these kinds of people in the US from every point along the political spectrum. Global warming deniers, creationists, teabaggers, anti-nuclear greenpeace idiots, organic farming people, and anti-vaccers, etc. To them, evidence only matters if it supports their belief (not theory) and anything else is dismissed with one word "CONSPIRACY."

It's hopeless. You have to rub their fucking nose in it before they will figure it out.
Uh, you're linking organic farming people in with creationist and global warming deniers? PETA? Yes. Vegans? Maybe. But organic farmers? What's your justification?
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Cairber »

The mumps outbreak is slowly moving towards us down here in southeastern PA...we can thank the nonvaxers for that one as well; it's true the vaccine for mumps is one of the weaker ones, but you don't get outbreaks like this without large pockets with low herd immunity, which is exactly where this mumps fiasco started.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Liberty wrote:
JediToren wrote:We have so many of these kinds of people in the US from every point along the political spectrum. Global warming deniers, creationists, teabaggers, anti-nuclear greenpeace idiots, organic farming people, and anti-vaccers, etc. To them, evidence only matters if it supports their belief (not theory) and anything else is dismissed with one word "CONSPIRACY."

It's hopeless. You have to rub their fucking nose in it before they will figure it out.
Uh, you're linking organic farming people in with creationist and global warming deniers? PETA? Yes. Vegans? Maybe. But organic farmers? What's your justification?

Their scaremongering about GM foods is unjustified. Say what you want about Monsanto (because it is true), but GM foods in and of themselves are hardly scary. Now, the high input agriculture is, but that is also another matter.... I basically want to see gm crops without the high intensity farming.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Liberty »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Liberty wrote:
JediToren wrote:We have so many of these kinds of people in the US from every point along the political spectrum. Global warming deniers, creationists, teabaggers, anti-nuclear greenpeace idiots, organic farming people, and anti-vaccers, etc. To them, evidence only matters if it supports their belief (not theory) and anything else is dismissed with one word "CONSPIRACY."

It's hopeless. You have to rub their fucking nose in it before they will figure it out.
Uh, you're linking organic farming people in with creationist and global warming deniers? PETA? Yes. Vegans? Maybe. But organic farmers? What's your justification?
Their scaremongering about GM foods is unjustified. Say what you want about Monsanto (because it is true), but GM foods in and of themselves are hardly scary. Now, the high input agriculture is, but that is also another matter.... I basically want to see gm crops without the high intensity farming.
Interesting. In my understanding, some of the concerns of people who go organic - for instance, why the heck is corn syrup, which isn't good for us, in everything these days - make sense. Also, it's just healthier to eat more fresh food rather than processed, and I guess I associate that with going organic too. It's good to know that genetically modified food isn't a problem. How about the antibiotics they feed cows these days? And what is the deal of high intensity farming? I've never heard of it. You can respond via pm if you don't want to hijack the thread, or just send me a link to an article or something (not too technical); this is an issue I'd like to know more about.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Samuel »

And what is the deal of high intensity farming? I've never heard of it.
High intensity farming refers to farming practices that deplete the soil and require a constant stream of fertilizer and other inputs to keep going. Aside from the sustainability issue, they use a large amount of pesticides and fertilizers which get washed off and end up in the water supply. Alysium can give the details of how that is bad, but some of the compounds mimic animal hormones while fertilizers is too heavily concetrated can cause algae blooms and dead zones.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Broomstick »

My mother remembered schoolmates dying or being maimed by things like measles, polio, and all sorts of happy horseshit. My siblings and I all got our vaccinations on time, come hell or high water. I even got vaccinated for smallpox despite (as I later learned) being at significant risk of death from complications of the vaccine (eczema and vaccinia are a bad, bad mix - nonetheless I have a smallpox vaccination scar to prove I got through it unscathed).

It makes me furious that this sort of bullshit is spreading, and among supposedly educated people, too. Yes, prolonged breastfeeding and healthy food and all that improves the immune system, but not to the point that a person becomes Magically Healthy.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Alyeska »

Liberty wrote:for instance, why the heck is corn syrup, which isn't good for us, in everything these days - make sense.
Your paying too much attention to the wrong crowd. Corn Syrup isn't any worse for humans than standard refined white sugar. There is nothing about corn syrup that makes it evil or bad. Its just a heavy dose of calories that packs the fat on your frame, just like sugar. If you remove corn syrup, it will merely get replaced by cane sugar. Its not the chemicals, its the calories.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Liberty »

Alyeska wrote:
Liberty wrote:for instance, why the heck is corn syrup, which isn't good for us, in everything these days - make sense.
Your paying too much attention to the wrong crowd. Corn Syrup isn't any worse for humans than standard refined white sugar. There is nothing about corn syrup that makes it evil or bad. Its just a heavy dose of calories that packs the fat on your frame, just like sugar. If you remove corn syrup, it will merely get replaced by cane sugar. Its not the chemicals, its the calories.
I'll admit that I have a friend who's a health nut and I got that from her. So, is there a credible website that I could go to that lays out information like this in plain language? Like I said, I'd like to be more well versed in this. I guess I could go try to hunt up a website myself...
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Alyeska »

Liberty wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Liberty wrote:for instance, why the heck is corn syrup, which isn't good for us, in everything these days - make sense.
Your paying too much attention to the wrong crowd. Corn Syrup isn't any worse for humans than standard refined white sugar. There is nothing about corn syrup that makes it evil or bad. Its just a heavy dose of calories that packs the fat on your frame, just like sugar. If you remove corn syrup, it will merely get replaced by cane sugar. Its not the chemicals, its the calories.
I'll admit that I have a friend who's a health nut and I got that from her. So, is there a credible website that I could go to that lays out information like this in plain language? Like I said, I'd like to be more well versed in this. I guess I could go try to hunt up a website myself...
Corn Syrup is derived straight from corn. Nothing really special about it. It was refined specificaly to get the sweetest elements out of corn. Just like white sugar is heavily refined sugar cane.

There are not any studies that show a danger inherent to corn syrup, outside of simple caloric intake. And this problem is also present with white sugar. You should be far more concerned about how high up the list the corn syrup/sugar is rather than its presence. Sugar and corn syrup in everything and in large quantities is the issue.

Its a Wiki article, so take it with a grain of salt (but not too much else you will go over the government recommended salt intake).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fruct ... th_effects
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

A man at my church has a son who's got a good heart, and he married a whole-earth believer of a woman who decried vaccines at all costs because they would 'scar the soul' of her child. They went back and forth for months, until at a church potluck Grandpa thunders 'ENOUGH YOU STUPID LITTLE GIRL!' He swung out his leg and SLAMMED it on the table, and rolled up his pant leg.

Everyone got a really good look at the aluminum rod connecting his shoe to his knee, because polio had wrecked his leg so bad that amputation had been the choice of action. 'If you don't want to scar his soul you can chop his damn leg off right now!!! You get my grandson vaccinated or I'll call the Judge (he points to the judge) on Monday and get him to take that baby away from your foolish neglectful arms!'

He put his leg back on and then finished his hot dog. She was sobbing for the rest of the night, but the kid got vaccinated. Too many people in my generation don't realize how really, really horrible the world was before medicine made it safe.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Rogue 9 »

Liberty wrote:
JediToren wrote:We have so many of these kinds of people in the US from every point along the political spectrum. Global warming deniers, creationists, teabaggers, anti-nuclear greenpeace idiots, organic farming people, and anti-vaccers, etc. To them, evidence only matters if it supports their belief (not theory) and anything else is dismissed with one word "CONSPIRACY."

It's hopeless. You have to rub their fucking nose in it before they will figure it out.
Uh, you're linking organic farming people in with creationist and global warming deniers? PETA? Yes. Vegans? Maybe. But organic farmers? What's your justification?
Not organic farmers themselves, I think, but rather the people who insist that we should go to all-organic farming. The trouble is that 100% organic farming methods could not sustain the current world population, and not by a small figure; we'd have to shed roughly two billion people to even begin to feed everyone. Unless you find that many volunteers to disappear...
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:A man at my church has a son who's got a good heart, and he married a whole-earth believer of a woman who decried vaccines at all costs because they would 'scar the soul' of her child. They went back and forth for months, until at a church potluck Grandpa thunders 'ENOUGH YOU STUPID LITTLE GIRL!' He swung out his leg and SLAMMED it on the table, and rolled up his pant leg.

Everyone got a really good look at the aluminum rod connecting his shoe to his knee, because polio had wrecked his leg so bad that amputation had been the choice of action. 'If you don't want to scar his soul you can chop his damn leg off right now!!! You get my grandson vaccinated or I'll call the Judge (he points to the judge) on Monday and get him to take that baby away from your foolish neglectful arms!'

He put his leg back on and then finished his hot dog. She was sobbing for the rest of the night, but the kid got vaccinated. Too many people in my generation don't realize how really, really horrible the world was before medicine made it safe.
If only there were more opportunities for people to make such an emphatic point. That vaccination could very well save that kid's life, especially if he runs into people who aren't vaccinated that get something like that. The only saving grace for the people who aren't vaccinated is the number of people who are vaccinated, keeping infections down to pockets when they happen, rather than full-blown epidemics.

Scar his soul. What utter foolishness...
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Johonebesus »

Alyeska wrote: Corn Syrup is derived straight from corn. Nothing really special about it. It was refined specificaly to get the sweetest elements out of corn. Just like white sugar is heavily refined sugar cane.

There are not any studies that show a danger inherent to corn syrup, outside of simple caloric intake. And this problem is also present with white sugar. You should be far more concerned about how high up the list the corn syrup/sugar is rather than its presence. Sugar and corn syrup in everything and in large quantities is the issue.

Its a Wiki article, so take it with a grain of salt (but not too much else you will go over the government recommended salt intake).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fruct ... th_effects

Wasn't there just recently a study in which mice getting corn syrup got fatter faster than mice getting the same calories from cane sugar?
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Cairber »

I read an article a few days back about the outbreak last year with those 12 measles cases in the San Diego area. They talked about a study that found that 40% of the parents at the practices they examined who had chosen not to vaccinate changed their minds after the measles outbreak. So maybe there is some hope that numbers will go up as a result of smaller outbreaks and we won't need tons of deaths and cases of SSPE to change minds.

But...then again...7 cases and 3 deaths from the Hib infection in southeastern PA last year (all unvaccinated) and I know people who still don't get the vaccine.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Covenant »

Johonebesus wrote:Wasn't there just recently a study in which mice getting corn syrup got fatter faster than mice getting the same calories from cane sugar?
Well, just mathematically that wouldn't make a lot of sense, Corn Syrup isn't an over-unity energy source. I suppose it's possible in conjunction with other factors since the HFC is harder to break down, theoretically leading to some strangeness in the mouse biology. I'd need to know if the mice eating HFC ate the same volume of food, because there is some oddness with the way HFC only spottily triggers some "I'm full" impulses that are geared towards sugar, but this is all very messy science due to the amount of confusion from corn and food lobbies.

Overall, it's not really worth worrying about if you have the willpower to practice portion control. This is not something I would expect from mice, however, nor from your average American. Anyway, enough of that tangent.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by UnderAGreySky »

How long before Jenny McCarthy and her ilk are arrested due to reckless endangerment of the public? If you or I drive drunk down a public road, we're arrested with the main reason being that we could have caused the injury, death and suffering of one or more members of the public. By spreading demonstrably wrong information with more than enough scientific, court-admissible evidence that will stand scrutiny to back the science, they should be convicted and have to spend years behind bars. I don't want MY kids in the future to be faced with a mutated version of a disease that could so easily have been wiped out.

As it is in India we have problems vaccinating for polio. Morons who believe that the polio drops cause impotency keep their kids away from it. I won't mince words here, it is predominantly Muslim-regions that are affected by this shit. The Mullahs who spread these rumours amongst the illiterate Muslims should be shot, IMO.

But hooray for the grandpa in Captain Chewie's story! May his tribe increase! Albeit preferably without Polio.

I also love House, M.D.'s take on this:
Dr. Gregory House wrote:You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green or fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for 6 months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop REALLY fast.
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Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
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Alyeska
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Alyeska »

Johonebesus wrote:Wasn't there just recently a study in which mice getting corn syrup got fatter faster than mice getting the same calories from cane sugar?
From the skimming I have done on the Wiki article, this is true on the surface. However, the difference was considered to be negligible. When you get down to the core of it, the health concerns over corn syrup has nothing to do with being an "evil chemical" and everything to do with being fattening and having high caloric value. In order for corn syrup to be truly bad it would have to have considerable statistical differences from white sugar. This just isn't true. You ban High Fructose Corn Syrup and it just gets replaced with white sugar. People will still get just as fat, minus or a percent or two.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Alyeska wrote:
Liberty wrote:for instance, why the heck is corn syrup, which isn't good for us, in everything these days - make sense.
Your paying too much attention to the wrong crowd. Corn Syrup isn't any worse for humans than standard refined white sugar. There is nothing about corn syrup that makes it evil or bad. Its just a heavy dose of calories that packs the fat on your frame, just like sugar. If you remove corn syrup, it will merely get replaced by cane sugar. Its not the chemicals, its the calories.

But cane sugar costs more, which will raise the cost of high-calorie fattening foods, decreasing consumption, so banning corn syrup DOES make sense from a health policy perspective. And we can use the corn to make more ethanol, anyhow. And I like Ben support organic farming of genetically modified organisms, in fact it should be the exclusive form of farming to raise the price of food (again decreasing consumption to cause healthier population outcomes), while simultaneously reducing the energy consumption of the farming process.
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think I agree with the Duchess. When you're making highly artificial processed food, there's no obvious reason not to sweeten the hell out of it, if you've got a cheap enough sweetener. There's almost no upper limit on how sweet you can make something without making the average customer like the product more, so sweetness increases sales.

Which leads to super-caloric sodas, chips, sauces, and so on.
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Alyeska
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Re: Measles Resurgence Tied To Parents' Vaccine Fears

Post by Alyeska »

Anyone have firm details on the price difference between corn syrup and cane sugar? My Google-Fu is weak today.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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