The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Tiwaz »

Darth Wong wrote:
PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:What if Jesus walks out of the portal, see's the forces arayyed against him, says "Fuck all this noise, man," and surrenders?
He won't. Part of the reason (and this was mentioned waaaaay back in one of the earlier threads) is that a modern army does not look as impressive as an ancient one. The men aren't in tight formations. They're not brandishing gleaming weapons and armour. They're spread out all over the place, hiding in foxholes or behind obstacles, trying to blend in with the scenery. For someone who is accustomed to the pomp and circumstance of medieval armies, with their fluttering banners and gleaming armour and shining forests of spear-tips and blades, a modern army must look rather cowardly and unimpressive.

That's assuming the HEA is even present when Jesus marches out.

Considering that the HEA is using Hell as staging area and plans to hit the Angelic host using portals it appears unlikely.

Going to cause a good deal of extra losses since they do not have had chance to set up any fortifications like they did with the Demon army.

Pity in a way... If they had a fixed location there could be lots of old fashion AA present...
They might be more useful against a large number of flying angels than more modern precise weapons.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Corvus »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Yes, but who will get the honor of 'Christkiller'?
Maybe an officer in the Vatican division?

I love how the story continues to evolve, can hradly wait for next part.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Mayabird »

This is assuming that Jesus does actually go along with leading the armies. What if he decides to go pacifist at just the right moment and Yahweh, pissed off at his degenerate no-good stoned hippie son, decides to pick a more worthy general...like Michael-Lan? We haven't seen Jesus once in the entire series, just heard about him getting high with Michael, so it's possible that could be the case. (This would be followed by the sounds of me cackling as centuries of plots in motion crash very hard).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Mayabird wrote:This is assuming that Jesus does actually go along with leading the armies. What if he decides to go pacifist at just the right moment and Yahweh, pissed off at his degenerate no-good stoned hippie son, decides to pick a more worthy general...like Michael-Lan? We haven't seen Jesus once in the entire series, just heard about him getting high with Michael, so it's possible that could be the case. (This would be followed by the sounds of me cackling as centuries of plots in motion crash very hard).
Or worse, Jesus sobers up and decides to get clever. Michael-Lan seems to be very afraid of this happening, to the point of stressing to Rafael that Jesus has to go into this blithely, absolutely, ignorant of the explosive death that awaits him. Could Jesus be quicker-thinking and more agile than his father? Could Michael-Lan have been suppressing this by cultivating Jesus' love for the one true Mary in his life, Mary Jane?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Le Blue Dude »

I know this is stupid, but I've learned from history that when occupier and occupied intermarry, that speeds assimilation.

Because of this I'm curious about what a demon/human romance would look like. Also how would marriage be changed by the whole "War against heaven" thing? How would people react to such an occurrence?


Because of the.... barbs... mentioned earlier something tells me that such a romance would work out better between a male human and a female demon. But perhaps work around could be developed to let it work in the other direction.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Le Blue Dude »

Oh and in clarification to my prior post I mean romance, as in 'two people fall in love/become best friends and decide to take it to the next level'. Personalities meshing well not a mostly sexual relationship.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Ilya Muromets »

I'd actually find it hilarious when, during the Heavenly invasion and after all the build-up, Jesus just suddenly goes out, waving his arms frantically and screaming in a stereotypical hippie stoner accent:

"Whoa. Whoa! WHOA! Wait! Don't shoot! I, like, surrender, man!"

It'd be almost worth it to see the reactions on both Yah-yah and Mikey's faces. Not to mention the initial confusion that'd cause in the army he's supposed to be leading.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Ugh, I sure as fuck hope the Jesus in this story isn't the tiresome old stereotyped stoner that moderates in pop culture have painted him as, but rather the expansionist conqueror from the Book of Revelations offering to give his faithful the power to smash their rival nations "as a rod of iron smashes clay pots, just as I have received power from my Father." Shit, any depiction other than the one that moderates have been so furiously insistent is Jesus' "true" character would suffice for me, because I'm getting sick of that smug asshole and his cherry-picked justification for existing.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by spartasman »

So, what gods will show up after heaven is destroyed? Chernobog, Cthulhu, Ž̰̥͔̣̓A̛̹̬̳̬͉̖̙ͯ̉͆ͤ̐͗ͪ̀͢Ḷ̨̺̱̤̪͓̊ͥ͊ͪG͔͔̥̭̦̉ͥͫͮ͒ͣ͑ͅǑ̳̺̖̳̟̘͓̙ͦͬ̊ͫ̓̕ͅ?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Le Blue Dude »

Also, has anyone realized yet the economic crisis that Hell is going to cause? There's 90 billion potential workers there who don't get tired or hungry. What's that going to do to union rights, and the price of labor? Also it's going to cause a large scale reduction in automation programs. Automation tends to occur only when the price of machines and the maintenance therein is cheeper and more efficient then the price of human labor. With 90 billion potential human workers well.... yeaaahhh. That's also 90 billion consumers, add the inflation from the printing, and a few other things and prices are likely to soar unless they can build up hell manufacturing, and that may not help much. Raw resources may be cheep, but manufactured goods are undersupplied, labor is over-supplied... this is, according to my economics class, the poster child situation for switching from a free market economy to a controlled economy. At least until the situation evened out.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Darth Wong »

That has been discussed before. As before, I would ask why the majority of these people would bother working to produce export goods.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by spartasman »

I would like to know what the advent of the "second life" means in relation to morality. Earlier in the story, the commander of the Isreali sub was given condolences for the death of his family, but I do not see why you would need that when not only you are dead yourself, but your family is essentially alive there with you in Hell. I can't see murder becoming anything more than like robbery, with courts determining that you are simply robbing someone of their first life. Also, do people with mental handicaps become normal when they die, considering that anything that is wrong with people is automatically fixed in hell? If so, would it not be considered the moral thing to do to euthanize the mentally handicapped? What about people who have undergone plastic surgery or sex-change operations, would they simply revert to their natural born anatomy?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by MondoMage »

Mayabird wrote:This is assuming that Jesus does actually go along with leading the armies. What if he decides to go pacifist at just the right moment and Yahweh, pissed off at his degenerate no-good stoned hippie son, decides to pick a more worthy general...like Michael-Lan?
I'm not sure how things are going to play out, but it would be absolutely delicious if Yahweh turned out to be more of a schemer than Michael-Lan gives him credit for (which, admittedly, wouldn't take much). He'd probably still be bat-shit crazy, but a sneaky crazy who was well aware of what Michael was up to and who had plans in place to deal with Michael's treachery. :twisted:
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Morilore »

spartasman wrote:I would like to know what the advent of the "second life" means in relation to morality. Earlier in the story, the commander of the Isreali sub was given condolences for the death of his family, but I do not see why you would need that when not only you are dead yourself, but your family is essentially alive there with you in Hell. I can't see murder becoming anything more than like robbery, with courts determining that you are simply robbing someone of their first life. Also, do people with mental handicaps become normal when they die, considering that anything that is wrong with people is automatically fixed in hell? If so, would it not be considered the moral thing to do to euthanize the mentally handicapped? What about people who have undergone plastic surgery or sex-change operations, would they simply revert to their natural born anatomy?
This is part of a huge question the premise of this story raises. Deeper than all of these issues is the question of how people will deal with the world now that death is a mere inconvenience. Will huge portions of the population now be raised to consider this life just a preparatory stage for "real" life, the way some theists consider it nowadays? What will happen to birth rates, etc. when people realize that raising a family isn't necessary either to propagate the species or to achieve a fraction of personal immortality? Millenia of literature and philosophy treating the cessation of existence as an inescapable part of the human condition is now utterly obsolete. Will Earth ultimately (in hundreds or thousands of years) be relegated to the status of little more than a nursery, or even a burden on a second-life population that basically never stops growing at an absurd rate? Or will the First Life remain the center of "real" civilization, since that is where basic driving instincts and needs still have some power? How will the basic differences between the two lives, one short-lived and demanding but set in an infinitely vast and yawning chasm of a universe, the other eternal and confined to a series of shrinking bubbles the size of single planets, affect relationships between nations, families, and individuals? Will our wondrous universe of stars and galaxies remain forever dark and unexplored, or will first-lifers, anxious to escape the burden of living in the shadows of their ever-growing living ancestry, spread out from this planet? Will first-lifers in general ultimately be regarded as simple children compared to more sophisticated and experienced second-life society, or will the subtle differences in 1L and 2L human brains result in a different dynamic? If you die on Mars, do you still go to Hell?

It's a very formidable premise to explore, and I can't fault Stuart for the way he has approached some of these issues: people don't stop and reconsider their whole approach to existence, they just adapt to accommodate each new development in increments, without really considering the long-term ramifications of what they're doing. It's very realistic, I think.

On a totally different subject: where did all of the heavy elements in Hell come from? Were they extruded as-is from universe1, or is fusion easier to achieve in Hell and Heaven? I think I sort of understand why the "planets" have gravity, but is the Klein bottle as deep "through the planet" and "through the atmosphere" as it is "around"? If so, is the atmosphere much thinner at the "highest" point in the atmosphere (i.e. as high as you can climb before you start falling again)? Have all these questions been addressed before, when I wasn't paying attention? A lot of these probably don't have answers, but it's fun to explore.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Morilore wrote:Will Earth ultimately (in hundreds or thousands of years) be relegated to the status of little more than a nursery, or even a burden on a second-life population that basically never stops growing at an absurd rate?
...You do realize that second-lifers can't reproduce, right? Not saying you don't, but this comment is ambiguous on that point.
It's a very formidable premise to explore, and I can't fault Stuart for the way he has approached some of these issues: people don't stop and reconsider their whole approach to existence, they just adapt to accommodate each new development in increments, without really considering the long-term ramifications of what they're doing. It's very realistic, I think.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Morilore »

Simon_Jester wrote:...You do realize that second-lifers can't reproduce, right? Not saying you don't, but this comment is ambiguous on that point.
Yes I do, however, unless first-life humans go extinct, the population of 2lifers will never stop growing. Maybe, at some point, 2life society will wish it would.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Darth Wong »

spartasman wrote:I would like to know what the advent of the "second life" means in relation to morality. Earlier in the story, the commander of the Isreali sub was given condolences for the death of his family, but I do not see why you would need that when not only you are dead yourself, but your family is essentially alive there with you in Hell. I can't see murder becoming anything more than like robbery, with courts determining that you are simply robbing someone of their first life. Also, do people with mental handicaps become normal when they die, considering that anything that is wrong with people is automatically fixed in hell? If so, would it not be considered the moral thing to do to euthanize the mentally handicapped? What about people who have undergone plastic surgery or sex-change operations, would they simply revert to their natural born anatomy?
I have to wonder what second-lifers would do with their time. At first, it would be nice to just loaf around, but after a while, would boredom become overpowering? You can't reproduce, you don't age, you don't really need to work, there's no real direction or purpose in your life ... what do you do? I wonder if the denizens of Hell would eventually start wars with each other just to break the monotony.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by ANTIcarrot »

All his plans had come to nothing and he was all too sure he would go down in American history as a wartime leader only.
Well, technically... Don't US soldiers get health coverage? And since a draft has been instigated, aren't millions of americans (and their families) now getting health coverage who weren't getting it before? :lol: The Republican party may also be a lot less, um well, crazy-religious in a post Message world than otherwise. (What did happen to Sarah Palin?) On issues like gays serving in the military for example. Again, with a military draft, issues like this will very probably come up at some point. On some issues, President Obama might find he's facing less opposition that he thinks.
There's 90 billion potential workers there who don't get tired or hungry.
Yes, but 89 billion don't know one end of a screwdriver from the other. (We tend to forget how much modern people do know!) 88.5 billion are also still imprisoned. In the long run though, probably. Second lifers will likely want the same level of luxuary first lifers enjoy. (HDTV. Xbox. Car.) A few decades later, they'll probably have the wealth and economy of scale to pose a concern to first-life economies. Also remember that if there's any chance, a lot of second-lifers may choose to move to air-polution-free heaven. So Hell isn't going to have things all its own way...
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Is space travel a possibility in the Hell-dimension? The business about launching the satellite in the first book was inconclusive. Because if so, there's your solution to overpopulation and boredom, albeit in the long term.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Le Blue Dude »

The 2nd lifers don't know if there's a third life you know. And hell is collapsing. Slowly, but collapsing nonetheless. Same for heaven. And they can't live outside hell (and heaven). And so reproduction would still be the only way of ensuring immortality, or a part thereof. (Actualy Heaven must be collapsing much quicker then hell, given the amount of light there. Or they're both collapsing at the same rate, but Hell is smaller)

Reminds me of the old question: Is Hell exothermic or Endothermic? Answer: Endothermic because, due to the large number of people entering Hell, it must be expanding and therefore endothermic (Absorbs heat)

This must be how the demons and angels started. They conquered their own afterlives, escaped their home dimension before it's bubble popped into entropy, and then moved from after-life to afterlife... maybe? Well it's a glorious thought anyway.

And AntiCarrot, you have a great point with the screwdriver thing. But Palin isn't who she pretends to be, and if you look at the record of who she was before McCain tapped her, and who she was after training it's pretty clear that she just acted... the way she does... as a way of gaining power.

But despite this all, I'm a romantic at heart... the sort of romantic who thinks that true love, and incredibly close friendship are one and the same, but a romantic nevertheless. I admit I'm only on chapter 21 of Pantheocide, so maybe it occurs later, but I'm wondering when human/dead, human/demon, and demon/dead romances will be tackled. It would be interesting to see how people in general reacted to such romances. Mind Human/dead has fairly obvious end-results as an easy solution... but that easy solution is quite bothersome as well politically speaking.
Last edited by Le Blue Dude on 2010-04-07 04:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Morilore »

Tith wrote:Is space travel a possibility in the Hell-dimension? The business about launching the satellite in the first book was inconclusive. Because if so, there's your solution to overpopulation and boredom, albeit in the long term.
There is no space in Hell. If I understand correctly, Hell is a Klein bottle, where the ambient light is generated mysteriously but has something to do with the slow collapse of the dimension into a singularity, and if you fly up into the sky you'll hit the ground again before too long. The only way to explore is to go to other universe2 "bottles," and the risks of such an adventure were mentioned by Hillary in the last chapter.

I wonder again whether there is a "highest" point in Hell/Heaven, where gravitational potential energy is at a maximum and you are as far as possible from any ground. Would it be possible to float there indefinitely, or "orbit" around the critical point, or does gravity not work like that?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by The Vortex Empire »

Perhaps Yahweh isn't quite as oblivious as he appears to be. Is it possible that he knows about Michael's planning and has plans to deal with it, and is just putting up a false image?

I don't think this is true. By all indications Yahweh is an arrogant oblivious moron.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Le Blue Dude »

Hell's not quite a Kline bottle. Wrong geometry for that, a Kline bottle is a non-orientable surface, and hell is clearly thicker then just a surface since it has an up/down direction. A mobius strip is an non-orientable line.

Hell most likely takes the form of a S3 with an applied vector field that does not vanish at any point or S1XS1XS1 given what we know about it. In other words the simplest forms it can take are the torus wrapped through another dimension to fold back upon it's self in three dimensions (That's the S1X it's self repeatedly) Or the three dimensional surface of a four dimensional ball onto which a vector-field has been applied.

Those are, of course, the simplest forms. If it's non orientable it's not a four dimensional object having a two dimensional non-orientable surface (Like a Kline bottle). It's a five dimensional object which has a three dimensional non-orientable space. That means it's one step up from the klien bottle.

Honestly it's most likely four dimensional. 4-D Topology is the hardest to work out, and still hasn't been solved in many many ways.

What would be cool would be if it was the "roman surface" done with space... I suppose the "Roman space" would be what it would be called. That's a bit more obscure then kline bottles.
Last edited by Le Blue Dude on 2010-04-07 04:59pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Nematocyst »

Ilya Muromets wrote:I'd actually find it hilarious when, during the Heavenly invasion and after all the build-up, Jesus just suddenly goes out, waving his arms frantically and screaming in a stereotypical hippie stoner accent:

"Whoa. Whoa! WHOA! Wait! Don't shoot! I, like, surrender, man!"

It'd be almost worth it to see the reactions on both Yah-yah and Mikey's faces. Not to mention the initial confusion that'd cause in the army he's supposed to be leading.
Or even better:
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And HUMANITY said: "it is our duty, not as men or women, not as black or white, but as HUMANS, to defend our species from utter annihilation and damnation. These Beings that for so long believed themselves masters of our destiny finally dropped their facade. HUMANITY will, as one, declare WAR on them. HUMANITY is master of its' own destiny. And we will fight to the last"
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Fifty Seven Up

Post by Baughn »

I mentioned this before, but..

In a relatively short period of time - decades to centuries, possibly less depending on how much the existence of hell reduces effort on the subject - genetic engineering and/or other technologies will advance to the point where your first-life body is more durable and longer lasting than your second-life one.

This might along the way make the reincarnation system stop working, which sucks for whoever first figures that out, but backups should be simple enough.

The situation where your first life can in any way be said to be a preparatory stage for the second.. won't last. I just can't see that happening. Of course, at some point after that we'll probably figure out how to extract people from their second-life bodies, at which point it's all moot anyway.
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