40K vs SW - The Battle of Geonosis

[Serafina]

So, inspired by the other thread, i would like to propose an actual battle between the two.

The Battle of Geonosis as seen in AotC. The Republic retains it's original forces and both sides their strategic goals.

To summarize:
-The Republic has to prevent the evacuation of the droid army and seize the production facilities
-The Republic has to capture the leaders of the enemy, including Count Dooku
-They have to rescue the Jedi and Senator Amidala

-The leaders of the IoM have to evacuate
-The plans for the superweapon have to be rescued

The forces of the Republic, according to Wookiepedia:
-212 Jedi
-192.000 clone troopers
-10.000 clone commandos
-1.600 LAAT-gunships
-2.160 AT-TE walkers
-100 SAPHT artillery units
-12 Accalamator assault ships

The forces of the IoM:
-250.000 soldiers of the Imperial guard (that's 1/4th of the B1-droids used in the original battle.)
-20.000 Storm Troopers
-100 Space Marines, including vehciles
-6.000 Leman Russ Battletanks (various variants)
-3.000 Chimera transports
-750 Hyrda-AA tanks
-200 Basilisk artillery tanks
-10 Deathstrike missile launchers
-2 Anti-orbital Defense lasers (stationary)
-3 Warlord Battle titans
-5 Reaver Battle titans
-15 Warhound Scout titans
-200 psykers (50 primaris psykers, the other employed in psionic choirs)
-500 Vulture-gunships (including 100 of the Vendetta-pattern)
-Various landing barges
-1 Inquisitor with primaris-level psionics (representing Count Dooku)
-1 Magos, 1 Planetary governor, 1 Astropath and one Lord-General (representing the leadership)

How will the battle go and which side is going to fulfill their objectives?

[Lord Relvenous]

You gave the Imperium forces a significant portion of a Titan Legio. That alone is enough to win them the battle. 3 Warlords is a crazy amount of firepower.

[Serafina]

You gave the Imperium forces a significant portion of a Titan Legio. That alone is enough to win them the battle. 3 Warlords is a crazy amount of firepower.

Actually, not necessarily - they would propably be prime targets for the STHAPs, given their size. Those things are not good for much else, anyway.

[andrewgpaul]

A quick nitpick or two; the Vendetta is a variant of the Valkyrie transport, not the Vulture gunship, and Reaver titans are rarer than Warlords - perhaps 5 Warlords and 3 Reavers would be better.

50 Primaris psykers is quite a lot, is it not?

[Serafina]

A quick nitpick or two; the Vendetta is a variant of the Valkyrie transport, not the Vulture gunship, and Reaver titans are rarer than Warlords - perhaps 5 Warlords and 3 Reavers would be better.

50 Primaris psykers is quite a lot, is it not?

Whooops, my bad

Well, i do not think that 50 Primaris Psykers are that much, considering the scale of the battle.

[JGregory32]

You do realise a much better opponet for the Republic in this setting would be the Necron's right?
In fact here's the scenario:
On Genosis a mining team uncover the ruins of what they assume was a major ancient droid factory, the droids seem to be dormant and resist any attempts to power them up. This state of affairs continues until Obi-Wan lands on the planet, the presence of what the Necrons assume to be a powerful pysker begins automated start up sequences. This only accelerates as more and more jedi arrive on planet. By the time we have the big arena scene the majority of the Necrons are now awake and storming out of the mine right into the Clone Troopers.

Granted the sequence needs some work but that's just off the top of my head.
So Clone army against pissed off Necrons who want to find/kill/dismember the Jedi who they believe are Psykers. Anybody wanna place some bets?

[Aaron]

10 Deathstrikes? Depending on the warhead, half of those might just be enough to eliminate the SW force before they can even engage.

This seriously favours the IoM, the TO&E you've got listed here should be more then enough for The IoM to stall the SW forces until the leadership escapes. Especially as they aren't typically known for giving two craps about the lives of their men.

[Serafina]

10 Deathstrikes? Depending on the warhead, half of those might just be enough to eliminate the SW force before they can even engage.

This seriously favours the IoM, the TO&E you've got listed here should be more then enough for The IoM to stall the SW forces until the leadership escapes. Especially as they aren't typically known for giving two craps about the lives of their men.

Actually, Deathsrikes have recently been downgraded severely. Anyway, i would assume "only" standard plasma warheads, which are similar to a tactical nuke.

Anyway, i tried to base the imperial OOB of the Seperatist forces, which were far larger (about 2 million droids).

[JGregory32]

Anyway, i tried to base the imperial OOB of the Seperatist forces, which were far larger (about 2 million droids).

2 million droids, but most of them were the really stupid roger roger guys. The IoM forces are for the most part at least compatent.
And if all you want is for them to dealy an aggressive force then a single well dug in Imperial Guard regiment will do just as well.
Remeber the object of the game isn't to defeat the Republic forces but rather to delay them long enough for the leadership and the superweapon plans to escape.

[Aaron]

Actually, Deathsrikes have recently been downgraded severely. Anyway, i would assume "only" standard plasma warheads, which are similar to a tactical nuke.

Tactical nukes VS 200,000+ infantry walking in a mob towards your lines? Or against a landing zone?

Anyway, i tried to base the imperial OOB of the Seperatist forces, which were far larger (about 2 million droids).

Yeah, I get that. And the Clones/Jedi succeeded because the droid army was shit, had no prepared defensive positions and we're caught by surprise.

Only one of those elements would be present here (surprise), the Guard and IoM in general dig in as SOP on the defensive, the typical guardsmen is likely to already be a Vet and the defense favours the defender. On paper these forces may be evenly matched but once you start to throw in things like defensive works the balance tips to teh Guard severely. An untested army advancing across open ground for kms is going to be a juicy target.

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly I would have replaced the Titans with Superheavies. That's more Guardlike. SPHA-Ts are probably more comparable to a super-huge shadowsword.

Titans it isn't so much the firepower as the durability. But with 100 SPHA-Ts they have an insane firepower advantage against the Titans and probably would take them out without much trouble. But other than that the SPHA-Ts won't be very useful unless you refit most of them with missiles or projectile weapons (then they're just very big, slow moving artillery pieces) Or if the big guns can somehow (magically) fire off axis.

I dont know what the Deathstrikes could be used against, though. They're basically designed as ICBMs, so unless they have alot of time to get up to speed, they stand a good chance of getting shot down.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, I get that. And the Clones/Jedi succeeded because the droid army was shit, had no prepared defensive positions and we're caught by surprise.

Only one of those elements would be present here (surprise), the Guard and IoM in general dig in as SOP on the defensive, the typical guardsmen is likely to already be a Vet and the defense favours the defender. On paper these forces may be evenly matched but once you start to throw in things like defensive works the balance tips to teh Guard severely. An untested army advancing across open ground for kms is going to be a juicy target.

If they act like they do in the movie, yeah. But in that case numbers won't matter at all unless you stripped the Guard of all their vehicles, and made the numbers ludicrously lopsided or something either. The Clone tactics in AOTC weren't the best either and would have fucked up had they not been fasing the shittier droid armies.

I would presume somewhat generously that the clones actually realize that they're facing something other, and at least recongize "tanks and artillery mean problems" and not try to rush them overland. I'd bet on them using the Acclamators as mobile bases to get them close, and deploy under the protection of shielding. The Acclamators aren't armed in the movies, but they are shielded and they can float in the atmosphere, and not even the Titans or Deathstrikes can threaten one unless they somehow are packing warp missiles or vortex warheads.

[Srelex]

Yeah, I get that. And the Clones/Jedi succeeded because the droid army was shit, had no prepared defensive positions and we're caught by surprise.

Only one of those elements would be present here (surprise), the Guard and IoM in general dig in as SOP on the defensive, the typical guardsmen is likely to already be a Vet and the defense favours the defender. On paper these forces may be evenly matched but once you start to throw in things like defensive works the balance tips to teh Guard severely. An untested army advancing across open ground for kms is going to be a juicy target.

If they act like they do in the movie, yeah. But in that case numbers won't matter at all unless you stripped the Guard of all their vehicles, and made the numbers ludicrously lopsided or something either. The Clone tactics in AOTC weren't the best either and would have fucked up had they not been fasing the shittier droid armies.

I would presume somewhat generously that the clones actually realize that they're facing something other, and at least recongize "tanks and artillery mean problems" and not try to rush them overland. I'd bet on them using the Acclamators as mobile bases to get them close, and deploy under the protection of shielding. The Acclamators aren't armed in the movies, but they are shielded and they can float in the atmosphere, and not even the Titans or Deathstrikes can threaten one unless they somehow are packing warp missiles or vortex warheads.

What do you mean, the Acclamators aren't armed? I'm pretty sure you can see the weapons emplacements if you look closely, and I think the reason they weren't used is because they were needed spaceside, and because they didn't want to risk taking out the Sep leadership by mistake with them, or something.

[Serafina]

Frankly I would have replaced the Titans with Superheavies. That's more Guardlike. SPHA-Ts are probably more comparable to a super-huge shadowsword.

Titans it isn't so much the firepower as the durability. But with 100 SPHA-Ts they have an insane firepower advantage against the Titans and probably would take them out without much trouble. But other than that the SPHA-Ts won't be very useful unless you refit most of them with missiles or projectile weapons (then they're just very big, slow moving artillery pieces) Or if the big guns can somehow (magically) fire off axis.

I dont know what the Deathstrikes could be used against, though. They're basically designed as ICBMs, so unless they have alot of time to get up to speed, they stand a good chance of getting shot down.

Actually, Deathstrikes are repedeatly used on the battlefied - their warheads are presumably easily scalable for this (you don't want to get caught in the blast, after all). So unless the GE brings specific equipment for shooting down big missiles, i do not see how they can do this.

Replacing the Titans with superheavies would be a good idea, but i actually included them to give the SPHATs a target.

If they act like they do in the movie, yeah. But in that case numbers won't matter at all unless you stripped the Guard of all their vehicles, and made the numbers ludicrously lopsided or something either. The Clone tactics in AOTC weren't the best either and would have fucked up had they not been fasing the shittier droid armies.

I would presume somewhat generously that the clones actually realize that they're facing something other, and at least recongize "tanks and artillery mean problems" and not try to rush them overland. I'd bet on them using the Acclamators as mobile bases to get them close, and deploy under the protection of shielding. The Acclamators aren't armed in the movies, but they are shielded and they can float in the atmosphere, and not even the Titans or Deathstrikes can threaten one unless they somehow are packing warp missiles or vortex warheads.

Actually, that's why i included the Defense Lasers - given that they can damage 40K-battleships, the Acclamators would have to stay out of the firing arc. Skimming low and staying out of the close vicinity to them should to the trick.

[Serafina]

Ok, here is my take on it:

As usual, both sides know the capabilities of the other side and can adjust their tactics freely.

The Republic would have to get their troops as close as possible. This could be done by a combination of Acclamators and LAATs. However, both will take losses from AA and the Defense Lasers.
Assuming 50% losses for the Gunships and 3 losses for the Acclamators, about 85% of the Clones should arrive within one or two kilometers, together with their vehicles.
If the Clones use the AT-TE's for cover and transports (as they do later in the clone wars), the losses should not be too steep.
In that case, the Clones are now in close-quarter fight with the Guardsmen. This has the advantage of mostly negating artillery support by the Guard (with the exceptions of mortars and direct shots by the basilisks).

A clone should be superior to a guardsmen, at least in training and armor. However, the Clones during Geonosis lacked good CQ-weaponery. I think we can assume that they use carbines instead of their heavy rifles, but that still leaves them without good grenades, flamethrowers and similar stuff.
Along with the Jedi, they should be able to throw the guardsmen back.
Primaris-psykers and Space Marines, however, would prove difficulties, especially in such confined conditions. Therefore, an straight win is out of the question.

However, the assault is mostly there to take out/distract the AA-assets of the Imperium with the goal to insert Clone Commandos and Jedi into the enemies headquarters (since they are the primary targets).
This leaves us with two questions:
-Can the commandos reach the headquarters, and can they take down the assembled commanders and their staff?
-Assuming the Inquisitor Lord (replacing Count Dooku) and Anakin/Obi-Wan (and later Yoda) would battle, who would win?

[Aaron]

And who is guarding the Inquisitor and HQ mooks?

[Lord Relvenous]

You gave the Imperium forces a significant portion of a Titan Legio. That alone is enough to win them the battle. 3 Warlords is a crazy amount of firepower.

Actually, not necessarily - they would propably be prime targets for the STHAPs, given their size. Those things are not good for much else, anyway.

I don't necessarily agree, but YMMV. With 15 Warhounds, the Legio has more than enough fast moving, smaller targets to combat the STHAPs. While a Warlord is a large target, they do benefit from non-LOS weapons, durability, and greater maneuverability (those little spindle legs on the STHAPs are ridiculous). And even one salvo from the Warlords will be enough to do significant damage to the Republic forces.

Besides that, I do agree that giving the Guard superheavies would have been a better choice. I also chuckle that you admit that you included the Titans just to give the STHAPs a target.

[Serafina]

And who is guarding the Inquisitor and HQ mooks?

The Inquisitor is (presumably) on it's own (because i just want to see the confrontation), the HQ is guarded by Stormtroopers and Skitaari.
I think about ~200 Guards for the actual HQ and a couple more in whatever building they reside in are appropriate.

Besides that, I do agree that giving the Guard superheavies would have been a better choice. I also chuckle that you admit that you included the Titans just to give the STHAPs a target.

Someone could have brought it up anyway, and the STHAPs are otherwise pretty useless.

[Srelex]

Someone could have brought it up anyway, and the STHAPs are otherwise pretty useless.

If we take the 2D Clone Wars cartoon, SPHAs can provide NLOS firepower effectively.

[Aaron]

The Inquisitor is (presumably) on it's own (because i just want to see the confrontation), the HQ is guarded by Stormtroopers and Skitaari.
I think about ~200 Guards for the actual HQ and a couple more in whatever building they reside in are appropriate.

Assuming a power/force sword (so his blade doesn't get cut in half), then I think a similar result to the battle with Dooku would be expected. For Obi-Wan and Ani anyways, they were pretty outclassed to begin with and I imagine your intention is to have the Inquisitor be roughly equivalent to Dooku (hopefully he's not a pyrokine). Yoda...I'm not sure, they only duelled because they couldn't get anywhere flinging crap at each other.

For the HQ, being inside negates the clones true advantage: numbers. Stormtroopers are well equiped, well armoured and well disciplined. Given a flamer, melta or plasma gun then I have no trouble imagining them holding off the Commandos long enough for the HQ to escape.

[Connor MacLeod]

What do you mean, the Acclamators aren't armed? I'm pretty sure you can see the weapons emplacements if you look closely, and I think the reason they weren't used is because they were needed spaceside, and because they didn't want to risk taking out the Sep leadership by mistake with them, or something.

Those acclamators had no weapons mounted at all. That's why they weren't used in the movies, presumably. I've looked and I've never seen them and the big guns are quite obvious.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, Deathstrikes are repedeatly used on the battlefied - their warheads are presumably easily scalable for this (you don't want to get caught in the blast, after all). So unless the GE brings specific equipment for shooting down big missiles, i do not see how they can do this.

Replacing the Titans with superheavies would be a good idea, but i actually included them to give the SPHATs a target.

Deathstrikes being missiles also represent a possible chance to be shot down, and they aren't reloadable in any practical timeframe, since they are giant mobile ICBMs. They aren't tactical weapons.

A bunch of Manticores would have made more sense. Or Whrilwinds. Or even the Chimera variant with the hunter-seeker missile racks.

Actually, that's why i included the Defense Lasers - given that they can damage 40K-battleships, the Acclamators would have to stay out of the firing arc. Skimming low and staying out of the close vicinity to them should to the trick.

"Defence laser" encompasses everything from "stuff the size of Titans and can be mounted on small turrets or fighters/gunships" to "huge ass fixed emplacements buried in deep underground facilities" right? Small mobile defense lasers won't do shit to a starship unless you're somehow giving them an Ordinatus or ten or something equally bizarre.

Besides, nothing could stand up to the recoil of a anti-ship defence laser. Point defense "defence lasers" on starships (titan grade) are nigh impossible to use for ground weapons as it is.

[Srelex]

What do you mean, the Acclamators aren't armed? I'm pretty sure you can see the weapons emplacements if you look closely, and I think the reason they weren't used is because they were needed spaceside, and because they didn't want to risk taking out the Sep leadership by mistake with them, or something.

Those acclamators had no weapons mounted at all. That's why they weren't used in the movies, presumably. I've looked and I've never seen them and the big guns are quite obvious.

Is it concievable that they were retracted or something? How about the guns on the side trench, or whatever the proper term is? There is a canonical space battle at Geonosis, so I'd imagine at least a few Acclamators had at least the capacity to shoot things.

[Connor MacLeod]

Is it concievable that they were retracted or something? How about the guns on the side trench, or whatever the proper term is? There is a canonical space battle at Geonosis, so I'd imagine at least a few Acclamators had at least the capacity to shoot things.

Its more likely they ar just acclamator variants, or just early run ships that didnt have time to have the weapons mounted. For a ship landing on the ground you don't really need multi-GT weapons, and that likely takes up valuable space that could be used elsehwere (supplies, equipment, troops, etc.) At most you would only need a few so equipped to provide orbital support, and those could be dedicated command and control types that also provide sensor data and comms relays. Or just rely on dedicated bombardment platforms.

[Serafina]

"Defence laser" encompasses everything from "stuff the size of Titans and can be mounted on small turrets or fighters/gunships" to "huge ass fixed emplacements buried in deep underground facilities" right? Small mobile defense lasers won't do shit to a starship unless you're somehow giving them an Ordinatus or ten or something equally bizarre.

Besides, nothing could stand up to the recoil of a anti-ship defence laser. Point defense "defence lasers" on starships (titan grade) are nigh impossible to use for ground weapons as it is.

Actually, i was refering to this.
You can find a description on the Games Workshop site under apocalypse data sheets (i am of course only using the fluff-section for reference and not the rules).
Sorry for not linking to it directly, but the stupid GW-site does not want to show it to me in english.

And "it's not possible is harldy a good argument when discussing sci-fi.

Edit: Actually, this link should do it for you, even if it screws up for me.