The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Night_stalker]

I could see him trying to give a flower to the HEA, only to be used as either a bayonet practice dummy or a target on the firing range.

[Morilore]

In a relatively short period of time - decades to centuries, possibly less depending on how much the existence of hell reduces effort on the subject - genetic engineering and/or other technologies will advance to the point where your first-life body is more durable and longer lasting than your second-life one.

The durability of hell bodies is based on technobabble; they literally soak up ambient energy from the collapsing bubble to repair wounds super-fast, IIUC. The idea of anything in 1L being as durable and long-lasting (sophisticated technology breaks down after a couple of decades; these bodies last thousands of years) as 2L bodies strikes me as absurd.

The situation where your first life can in any way be said to be a preparatory stage for the second.. won't last. I just can't see that happening.

Why not? Do you think uploads will take over the universe? If that happens, it'll be an even bigger reorganization of the human condition than the existence of Hell, which becomes almost irrelevant, so I do not think discussion of such possibilities belongs in a thread about this particular fictional universe.

[Hofner1962]

On issues like gays serving in the military for example. Again, with a military draft, issues like this will very probably come up at some point. On some issues, President Obama might find he's facing less opposition that he thinks.

It is interesting that there are Demons allowed in the army but not yet gays.

[spartasman]

I have to wonder what the HEA's contingency plan is for when they find criminals? Do they take them back to prison, or do they figure they have been through enough? What about when they find Hitler or Stalin, or Nazi war criminals that had already been put to death? While were at it, i'd like to know whats gonna happen when they find Kurt Cobain, or Lynyrd Skynyrd. What about John Lennon and George Harrison, I would like to see the Beatles get back together.

[Baughn]

The durability of hell bodies is based on technobabble; they literally soak up ambient energy from the collapsing bubble to repair wounds super-fast, IIUC. The idea of anything in 1L being as durable and long-lasting (sophisticated technology breaks down after a couple of decades; these bodies last thousands of years) as 2L bodies strikes me as absurd.

I was thinking more along the lines of redundancy, really. Keep backups all over the place, and the loss of any particular body isn't so much of a problem.

Why not? Do you think uploads will take over the universe? If that happens, it'll be an even bigger reorganization of the human condition than the existence of Hell, which becomes almost irrelevant, so I do not think discussion of such possibilities belongs in a thread about this particular fictional universe.

As you can probably tell, yes, that's exactly what I think.

You may be right that it doesn't belong in this thread, but on the other hand it looms in the future of any discussion that purports to predict conditions centuries in the future. If we're not going to at least take everything we already know into account, it's probably better to just say "never mind" and stop trying, since the result will be wrong. YMMV there, I suppose the discussion still has some entertainment value.

And yes, of course it'd be an even bigger reorganization than the existence of hell. I'd never pretend otherwise. Let's hope it doesn't turn into a catastrophic one, at least, since unlike the hell issue it's one we're somewhat likely to actually face.

[xthetenth]

I have to wonder what the HEA's contingency plan is for when they find criminals? Do they take them back to prison, or do they figure they have been through enough? What about when they find Hitler or Stalin, or Nazi war criminals that had already been put to death?

If we're going by the Israeli precedent with the concentration camp guards, hand them over to their victims.

While were at it, i'd like to know whats gonna happen when they find Kurt Cobain, or Lynyrd Skynyrd. What about John Lennon and George Harrison, I would like to see the Beatles get back together.

They're free people (once they get found), it's their call whether they get together and/or go back to making music, but given that they're artists, they're very likely to keep making music. Also, I'd be more interested in the rest of what happens when they get found seeing as it'll likely be in the mountmartre club for at least a few of them and I want to see what happens when the HEA (probably the French contingent if history is any indicator ) finds that place.

[The Vortex Empire]

I have to wonder what the HEA's contingency plan is for when they find criminals? Do they take them back to prison, or do they figure they have been through enough? What about when they find Hitler or Stalin, or Nazi war criminals that had already been put to death? While were at it, i'd like to know whats gonna happen when they find Kurt Cobain, or Lynyrd Skynyrd. What about John Lennon and George Harrison, I would like to see the Beatles get back together.

I doubt the Beatles would get back together, they broke up for personal reasons having nothing to do with death. Now Led Zeppelin on the other hand, they'd likely get back together.

I would assume the HEA puts criminals into jails while humanity debates what to do with them. They certainly wouldn't just let them go.

[Hofner1962]

and the Who

We could get Mooney back behind the kit.

[Night_stalker]

Well, this is going to be a case that will never be resolved, or at least in Pantheocide. Maybe in the sequalwill it be determined who gets the profits from their records.Also who gets the profit from composers like Beethoven or Mozart? Do the original people get it or does the recording studio get the cash?

[Morilore]

The 2nd lifers don't know if there's a third life you know. And hell is collapsing. Slowly, but collapsing nonetheless. Same for heaven. And they can't live outside hell (and heaven). And so reproduction would still be the only way of ensuring immortality, or a part thereof. (Actualy Heaven must be collapsing much quicker then hell, given the amount of light there. Or they're both collapsing at the same rate, but Hell is smaller)

It's collapsing slowly enough that it didn't affect a demonic society which had been in place for millions of years. Granted, they weren't paying very close attention, but Satan had been ruling over Hell for longer than Homo sapiens has existed; I don't think anyone's going to be worrying too hard about Hell collapsing. I'd imagine people would be more worried about Hell filling up than it collapsing.

[Nematocyst]

If really needed, we can portal 2nd Lifers to another Bubble, Hillary's warning notwithstanding. That also gives us a neat way of disposing 'undesirables': 2nd Lifers that may become a threat in the future, like a certain dead Roman emperor.
We send him and his people through a portal and 'forget' to send Nephilim with them. Voila!

On issues like gays serving in the military for example. Again, with a military draft, issues like this will very probably come up at some point. On some issues, President Obama might find he's facing less opposition that he thinks.

It is interesting that there are Demons allowed in the army but not yet gays.

I thought the 'don't ask, don't tell' thing was still in effect.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I could see him trying to give a flower to the HEA, only to be used as either a bayonet practice dummy or a target on the firing range.

Why don't we just make Yahweh out to be a genuinely loving old man with a giant flowing beard who has simply been misunderstood and scapegoated by people dissatisfied with their lives on earth, as long as we're leaning on tiresome old religious moderate impressions of Christian icons?

[GrayAnderson]

Well, this is going to be a case that will never be resolved, or at least in Pantheocide. Maybe in the sequalwill it be determined who gets the profits from their records.Also who gets the profit from composers like Beethoven or Mozart? Do the original people get it or does the recording studio get the cash?

Copyright takes care of that. The rule is either 95 years or life plus 70 years in the US, though I forget which takes precedence. Point being that at some point the 95 year cap is going to have run out on a lot of works even if you throw out the definition of death.

[Brovane]

I have to wonder what the HEA's contingency plan is for when they find criminals? Do they take them back to prison, or do they figure they have been through enough? What about when they find Hitler or Stalin, or Nazi war criminals that had already been put to death? While were at it, i'd like to know whats gonna happen when they find Kurt Cobain, or Lynyrd Skynyrd. What about John Lennon and George Harrison, I would like to see the Beatles get back together.

I doubt the Beatles would get back together, they broke up for personal reasons having nothing to do with death. Now Led Zeppelin on the other hand, they'd likely get back together.

I would assume the HEA puts criminals into jails while humanity debates what to do with them. They certainly wouldn't just let them go.

Actually I would say technically the criminals that have already served there sentences could make the argument that they are free men. They did a crime and there sentence was death and the served that sentence so they have paid there debt. For example the Nazis that where sentenced to death could make the argument that they paid there dues with the death penalty. However the Nazis that committed suicide before they where captured and put on trial could be in for a rough time. For example do we take somebody that killed 1-person and was put to death in the same boat as say Timoth McVeigh? They both could make a legal argument that they both served there sentences and they are now free men in Hell. I remember the line from "The Green Mile", "He's paid what he's owed. He's square with the house again".

[Darth Wong]

I have to wonder what the HEA's contingency plan is for when they find criminals? Do they take them back to prison, or do they figure they have been through enough? What about when they find Hitler or Stalin, or Nazi war criminals that had already been put to death? While were at it, i'd like to know whats gonna happen when they find Kurt Cobain, or Lynyrd Skynyrd. What about John Lennon and George Harrison, I would like to see the Beatles get back together.

I doubt the Beatles would get back together, they broke up for personal reasons having nothing to do with death. Now Led Zeppelin on the other hand, they'd likely get back together.

I would assume the HEA puts criminals into jails while humanity debates what to do with them. They certainly wouldn't just let them go.

Actually I would say technically the criminals that have already served there sentences could make the argument that they are free men. They did a crime and there sentence was death and the served that sentence so they have paid there debt. For example the Nazis that where sentenced to death could make the argument that they paid there dues with the death penalty. However the Nazis that committed suicide before they where captured and put on trial could be in for a rough time. For example do we take somebody that killed 1-person and was put to death in the same boat as say Timoth McVeigh? They both could make a legal argument that they both served there sentences and they are now free men in Hell. I remember the line from "The Green Mile", "He's paid what he's owed. He's square with the house again".

If I were a clever lawyer, I would challenge the assumption that these are even the same people. The only reason we assume they're the same people is the fact that they share their memories and the second-life person is spawned shortly after the first-life person dies. But that doesn't prove it's the same person; the new person could be a brand new individual who has a copy of the original person's memories.

[Edward Yee]

I'd rather Jesus not only fuck over Michael-lan's plots, but do so by accident.

[MondoMage]

Perhaps Yahweh isn't quite as oblivious as he appears to be. Is it possible that he knows about Michael's planning and has plans to deal with it, and is just putting up a false image?

I don't think this is true. By all indications Yahweh is an arrogant oblivious moron.

But this is the impression we get from Michael-Lan's point of view... we have no idea what Yahweh is *really* like outside of the tirades he puts on when Michael's around.

Now, admittedly, something made Michael-Lan decide to stage a coup. Perhaps it's because Yahweh actually is absolutely off his rocker. Maybe Michael-Lan doesn't feel that Yahweh's style of rule is appropriate. Could be both, maybe more. Point is, aside from the broad brush that Yahweh's been painted with, there's likely top be something going on that Michael's not aware of. Someone else is pulling some strings as well, someone who really hasn't been identified. Another of the angelic host? One of the other gods/pantheons displaced by Yahweh? Some force we've never heard of before?

For some reason, I've got a feeling that Michael-Lan's not the only one playing this particular game.

[GrayAnderson]

Actually I would say technically the criminals that have already served there sentences could make the argument that they are free men. They did a crime and there sentence was death and the served that sentence so they have paid there debt. For example the Nazis that where sentenced to death could make the argument that they paid there dues with the death penalty. However the Nazis that committed suicide before they where captured and put on trial could be in for a rough time. For example do we take somebody that killed 1-person and was put to death in the same boat as say Timoth McVeigh? They both could make a legal argument that they both served there sentences and they are now free men in Hell. I remember the line from "The Green Mile", "He's paid what he's owed. He's square with the house again".

If I were a clever lawyer, I would challenge the assumption that these are even the same people. The only reason we assume they're the same people is the fact that they share their memories and the second-life person is spawned shortly after the first-life person dies. But that doesn't prove it's the same person; the new person could be a brand new individual who has a copy of the original person's memories.

If I was running the prosecution on that matter, I would argue that regardless of them being the same person, we have a perfect copy of that person, and thus with someone like McVeigh, civil commitment could be compelled on the grounds of a threat to public safety (as is occasionally done in cases of sexual predators even if their sentence has been fully served out). As a judge, I'd be inclined to allow that on a temporary basis under strict scrutiny in certain cases because:
-Compelling government interest is satisfied in the case of virtually any multiple murderer, serial killer, or other mass murderer.
-Narrowly tailored is satisfied as exactly one person is being restrained under the order unless there's some mess of identity confusion that manages to come up. This is more likely in sorting out people pulled from the pit than coming through the gate; in the pit cases, you can simply stall things under processing excuses for a long time if I had to guess. The only case where this wouldn't work out is if the government was caught holding 20,000 people named "Muhammad" looking for a single one.
-Least restrictive means is satisfied as you're holding someone temporarily, not permanently (though it may turn out to be indefinite, at least in the short term it's pending an attempt to figure out what to do with them), and you'd at least notionally not be imprisoning them.

Of course, if I were a judge, I'd also cook up some fun metaphors to explain why whether they are exactly the same or not is entirely beyond the court's ability to tell, but that based on memories, personality traits, etc., we can only but assume that they are and that given the extreme similarity and overwhelming evidence that they are the same person, just in a different form (I'm assuming you can fingerprint or genetically test them and they'd come up positive), it's really irrelevant for a criminal matter (sort of like the MPD ruling: Someone can be convicted for something committed by an alternative personality of theirs of which they have no knowledge).

[Tiwaz]

If I was running the prosecution on that matter, I would argue that regardless of them being the same person, we have a perfect copy of that person, and thus with someone like McVeigh, civil commitment could be compelled on the grounds of a threat to public safety (as is occasionally done in cases of sexual predators even if their sentence has been fully served out). As a judge, I'd be inclined to allow that on a temporary basis under strict scrutiny in certain cases because:
-Compelling government interest is satisfied in the case of virtually any multiple murderer, serial killer, or other mass murderer.
-Narrowly tailored is satisfied as exactly one person is being restrained under the order unless there's some mess of identity confusion that manages to come up. This is more likely in sorting out people pulled from the pit than coming through the gate; in the pit cases, you can simply stall things under processing excuses for a long time if I had to guess. The only case where this wouldn't work out is if the government was caught holding 20,000 people named "Muhammad" looking for a single one.
-Least restrictive means is satisfied as you're holding someone temporarily, not permanently (though it may turn out to be indefinite, at least in the short term it's pending an attempt to figure out what to do with them), and you'd at least notionally not be imprisoning them.

Of course, if I were a judge, I'd also cook up some fun metaphors to explain why whether they are exactly the same or not is entirely beyond the court's ability to tell, but that based on memories, personality traits, etc., we can only but assume that they are and that given the extreme similarity and overwhelming evidence that they are the same person, just in a different form (I'm assuming you can fingerprint or genetically test them and they'd come up positive), it's really irrelevant for a criminal matter (sort of like the MPD ruling: Someone can be convicted for something committed by an alternative personality of theirs of which they have no knowledge).

But MPD personality resides in the same body the punishment is targeted at. 2L humans do not reside in the same body and their bodies have distinct differences to human bodies, perhaps to point where they cannot be considered human anymore (I think there was some mention along those lines in the Armageddon).

As for extending earthly laws to Hell... That is going to get iffy as fast as Hell becomes more organized.

Were Hitler to wander into New Rome and convince Caesar that he is of great value to them, there isn't a damn thing short of attempted assassination or stern demands (perhaps supported by "problems" with supply which already take their toll on NR) Earth can do.

I would say that it would not take very long for Hell nations to start demanding that Earth hands over process of sorting out arriving people to them. Yes, this would be years or decades in coming, but compared to total task of cleaning Hell from humans it is relatively short period.

Controlling arrivals and Minos gate is essential for Hell nations as a source of experienced workforce which they can try to tap into as a means of progressing. At the same time it is essential for Earth to try to prevent people with essential information from joining Hell nations.

Scientists, agents, politicians... All with information which can readily be tapped into by whomever gets them in the afterlife, with skill to work perfecting their inventions.

And, depending on how well Hell nations resist Earth pressure, there can be completely different copyright laws in presence.

[Baughn]

I would be deeply disturbed by any suggestion that second-lifers are not the same person as their first-life incarnation.

It's the same mind, just running on different hardware; there's no difference between this and uploading, and a ruling to the contrary could get quite troublesome a few years later. (As if it wouldn't be troublesome right away..)

I'm sort of expecting it, though. It's the obvious thing to try.

[JBG]

I would like to know what the advent of the "second life" means in relation to morality. Earlier in the story, the commander of the Isreali sub was given condolences for the death of his family, but I do not see why you would need that when not only you are dead yourself, but your family is essentially alive there with you in Hell. I can't see murder becoming anything more than like robbery, with courts determining that you are simply robbing someone of their first life. Also, do people with mental handicaps become normal when they die, considering that anything that is wrong with people is automatically fixed in hell? If so, would it not be considered the moral thing to do to euthanize the mentally handicapped? What about people who have undergone plastic surgery or sex-change operations, would they simply revert to their natural born anatomy?

I have to wonder what second-lifers would do with their time. At first, it would be nice to just loaf around, but after a while, would boredom become overpowering? You can't reproduce, you don't age, you don't really need to work, there's no real direction or purpose in your life ... what do you do? I wonder if the denizens of Hell would eventually start wars with each other just to break the monotony.

That is an interesting question and I'm kicking myself (metaphorically) for not considering that ealier. Many, many moons ago I read Michael Moorcocks' "Dancers at the End of Time" which dealt with very similar issues though I need to read it again before I can comment further. There was also a Hawkwind track on "A Space Ritual" but that was probably inspired by or indeed written by Moorcock.

[Highlord Laan]

This is assuming that Jesus does actually go along with leading the armies. What if he decides to go pacifist at just the right moment and Yahweh, pissed off at his degenerate no-good stoned hippie son, decides to pick a more worthy general...like Michael-Lan?

I'm not sure how things are going to play out, but it would be absolutely delicious if Yahweh turned out to be more of a schemer than Michael-Lan gives him credit for (which, admittedly, wouldn't take much). He'd probably still be bat-shit crazy, but a sneaky crazy who was well aware of what Michael was up to and who had plans in place to deal with Michael's treachery.

I'm actually hoping that this is the case. Mike seems to be forgetting that Yah-Yah was smart and powerful enough to take power in the first place. I really hope that we get a chapter of three to see Michael realize with dawning horror that Yahweh's been feeding him rope to hang himself with.

[Nematocyst]

Mike seems to be forgetting that Yah-Yah was smart and powerful enough to take power in the first place.

Back then, Yahweh was 'good' and Michael was loyal to him.

[Stuart]

It is interesting that there are Demons allowed in the army but not yet gays.

Huh? Could you point to the text that says that.

Various cosmology comments

The hypothetical cosmology is that there are two dimensions in balance and forming a linked pair. Thes eare our (expanding) dimension and the other (contracting) dimension. Together they occupy a space-time continuum of fixed size. The dimension containing Hell, Heaven and all the others is contracting at exactly the same rate as ours is expanding and the two "dimensions" have exactly the same life At the moment when our universe has expanded to its maximum sie, it occupies all of the space-time continuum and suffers heat death. At exactly that moment, the dimension containing Hell reaches its minimum, is compressed to a singularity and explodes in its equivalent of the Big Bang. As a result, the two universes flip roles, "our" universe becomes the contracting one and the universe containing Hell becomes the expanding one. So on ad infinitum.

Portals lead between points in different universes but in the same space-time continuum This means that if we can creat new portals at will, we can visit different bubble-worlds like Heaven and Hell. Likewise inhabitants of the Hell-containing universe can open portals at random and they can go to different planets. So, in theory, it would be possible to portal from Earth to Hell and then from hell to a planet circling (say) Tau Ceti.

This is where it gets interesting. Let's imagine now that we can see an overview of our universe (Universe-One) and the Hell/Heaven containing universe (Universe-Two) within their space-time continuum (as one of the characters points out, seriously like the cliched Yin-Yang symbol. We'll call that STC-1. If we now zoom out still further, what we see is that there are millions (nay, quintillions upon quintillions) of similar space-time continuums swimming in the void, all containing two universes eternally oscillating in and out. This is where the Minos Gate comes in. It MAY be a link to one of those other space-time continuums (it may be the ONLY link in STC-1).

However, it doesn't end there. Imagine our overview continuing to zoom out. As it does so, we realize that the void containing the STCs is just one part of another pair of eternally oscillating dimensions that in turn form a linked pair that is just one of many such constructs in another pair. And so on, in a spatial ad infinitum as well as a time ad infinitum. The Minos Gate MAY lead to that next level up. Nobody knows.

Let's go back. We take our own STC-1 and zoom in. At some point, we find out that the fundamental particles that we are seraching for so assiduously are, in fact, space-time continuum pairs the next level DOWN from ours. And so it goes, ad inifinitum in space and time, that way as well.

That little lot should keep the study of physics going for some time. In story terms, the more astute researchers are beginning to get a handle on this and its implications are literally driving them to drink.

By the way, note that the heat-death of Universe One and the big bang of Universe Two are simultaneous so one can't extend life to infinity by hopping from one to the other. To do that, one would have to hop to another space-time continuum (STC-2?). Since that would have totally different laws of physics, existence there would be impossible.

Another point; Universe-One, being expanding, sucks "energy" (a term used for want fo a better) out of its inhabitants. In the final analysis, that's what death is. Universe-Two, being a contracting universe pumps energy into its inhabitants (at a set rate) which explains their "Immortality". However, that energy is going in at a set rate; if the energy demands of the individuals exceed the supply, they have to eat to make up the difference.

[Bayonet]

If I were a clever lawyer, I would challenge the assumption that these are even the same people. The only reason we assume they're the same people is the fact that they share their memories and the second-life person is spawned shortly after the first-life person dies. But that doesn't prove it's the same person; the new person could be a brand new individual who has a copy of the original person's memories.

And I could produce the corpse of the deceased bad guy to prove it.

Law will get interesting for a while.