Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

As an addendum to my previous post, I'm also not trying to argue that every ship in Star Wars can cross the galaxy in a matter of hours (though I do think the movies indicate the faster ones can). I'm trying to show how the idea that weeks to months being standard has no grounding in the films, and that even the fastest crossing taking days is also not what we see. At the very least, Palpatine taking a month off to personally pick up Vader, who's lying exposed and maimed in volcanic ash for a few weeks, is absurd.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, it probably took him a few hours, given he could travel up to 8,000 lightyears prior to having to do something to extend the Hyperdrive's range, namely either recalibrating it or refueling it.

[Rama]

Then we have Anakin and Ahsoka traveling from Christophsis to Teth, then from Teth to Tatooine in less than one planetary cycle during the Clone Wars movie (although you could argue that it took less than one single day-to-night cycle), a journey of approximately 50,000 light years that was divided between a class 1.0 Venator and a class 3.0 freighter.

EU Hyperdrive speeds consistently contradict themselves (much like anything else) from author to author or from one plot device to the next, such as the Star Wars Sourcebook claiming that fastest engine in existence was only capable of 175pc/hour (which means Anakin would have sat on the lava bank for four days before medical aid arrived), the Millennium Falcon pulling off 6,666.6 light years per hour on a sabotaged Hyperdrive during the events of Bloodlines, Mara Jade covering 127 light years per hour in Dark Force Rising, the Chimaera taking nearly a week to cover 300 light years (otherwise known as Warp 9) and the Galaxy Gun's missiles being touted as being capable of traveling from the Deep Core to anywhere in the outermost rim in a few hours on a drive that is comparable to that of an Acclamator Assault Ship.

Whilst I believe that it is preferable to reconcile all sources rather than needlessly discard others, some of the highly minimalist lower end EU examples really fly in the face of what was seen in the movies (ANH, ROTS, TPM, AOTC, CW) or what should be realistically available to a galaxy spanning civilization; especially the Dark Force Rising example that suggests that it would have taken Darth Maul more than two weeks to reach Tatooine from Coruscant, or the the 60 light year per day event from Heir to the Empire that would suggest that Anakin sat on a Lava bank for more than two years.

[Ghost Rider]

So from your inane statement you make a wild leap to your conclusion. This doesn't even follow your first so called statement of it being logic that you based your inference upon.

So again, you will provide something or just upping your post count, dumbfuck?

Do you have some grudge against me or something? I just make some decent, well thought out estimates,

So you'll actually provide data to back your statement up?

nothing solid mind you and I get lambasted for somehow NOT following logic,

You mean to tell us when you said

Who needs a source for that, it's logic.

You had nothing whatsoever to back up your conclusion. No data whatsoever? And you want anyone to trust your conclusions?

which doesn't even make sense. Use your head, even if the Empire strip mined every planet of every molecule of metal, it would need to either reassign a lot fo the metal to make new shipyards and gear to build their new fleet, or just wait while the existing shipyards try and make trillions of vessels, which takes God knows how long.

Then provide the data to your conclusions. Otherwise might as well dismiss everything you've said in this regard.

[Night_stalker]

Its logic. To make a ship, you need tools, which are made out of metal. Often Durasteel is used in other things besides ships, so a percetage of all metal must be diverted to make and maintain the tools. Add in the civilian demand for it, and that's a fair amount that can't be used by the Imperial navy. Add in the fact that eventually, the exising deposits will run out what will they do then? Will they recycle the hulks of old ships for the metal, or will the become more economical with it's usage?

[Simon_Jester]

You also have to prove that the warp effects ships in hyperspace, it isn't our job to disprove the warps ability to effect this mode of transit.

Questionable. The warp, in its extreme manifestations, affects normal space. We know that objects in normal space affect hyperspace; otherwise you wouldn't be able to "bounce too close to a supernova." It seems perfectly reasonable that strong warp phenomena will distort hyperspace to at least a limited extent, enough that they have to be taken into account for navigation.

As to the continued navel problems I don't think that the GE would be able to withstand a Space Marine boarding party. I think that if a battle-barge were to board a SD, or SSD, it would end up in the hands of the Imperium.

Space Marines in multiple-company strength could very probably capture an SD; taking an SSD would require a full chapter or more simply because the ship is so damn big: 100 Space Marines aren't going to beat 10000 stormtroopers. The catch is that the battle barge is too slow and clumsy to do a good job of boarding Imperial ships, and teleporting Marines aboard probably won't work.

As to Armor, AT-ATs are like giant WWI tanks. They basically have the same armament as a AT-ST.

This is not strictly correct. AT-AT main guns are far more powerful than anything an AT-ST carries.

By 40k standards, an AT-AT would be a tough target simply because it's so tough. It's got titan-grade durability, and arguably titan-grade firepower... but I don't see any reason to assume that it's any more dangerous than Imperium titans. Which can easily be countered by 40k superheavy vehicles, and which can be beaten (with great difficulty, risk, and sacrifice) by more ordinary Imperium forces.

Shroom Man keeps saying that they could do the same thing that the US did to the Japs in WWII. The problem with this, I see, is that once inside the 40k galaxy, the resources of the only really damaging ships, the SD and SSDs, would run out quickly and would take incredible losses while attempting to do so. Remember, most Imperium Escort ships are the same size as a SD, and when the pattern of agri and industry worlds is relized, they'll have a hell of a time trying to make your analogy of American WWII strategic bombing work.

You're overestimating the strength of the Imperium's defenses. Their ships don't have the power to weight ratio of the Empire; an SD-sized Imperium ship is not as powerful as a star destroyer. The Imperium's high level of dispersed defenses is going to be a major factor, though; the Empire can't count on bloodless victories at each individual target.

There's a good analogy here to the WWII strategic bombing campaigns. You can paralyze a country by strategic bombing, yes... but if you're losing even a few percent of your bombers on each sortie, the cost and difficulty of prosecuting the campaign goes through the roof.

I don't think bringing up either of the two death stars is a good idea, seeing as how the rebelion took both out, and the Imperium could easily bring ten times as much to bare on those targets.

In neither case did the rebels beat the Death Star in a fleet action. Without knowing its weaknesses, the Death Star would be practically immune to the Imperium's best efforts. Chaos or the Necrons might be able to accomplish something by doing something exotic and beyond the Imperium's normal capabilities... but not the Imperium.

yeah, but even the Empire can't sustain the crew requirements without resorting to slave circuits, or lots of automated gear, both of which aren't appeasing to them.

Proof of this? Show me population figures and some calcs.

The assertion Night_stalker made was that a fleet of "over 3 trillion SDs" "can't be possible." Among other things, he was going on about the crews.

Let us assume a three trillion ISD fleet, with 37,000 man crews per ship. This gives 1.11*10^17 officers and naval ratings aboard the ISDs alone.

Realistically, the Starfleet will also have to provide crews for maintenance and logistics commands dedicated to supporting the naval ratings. It is difficult to come up with a good figure for the Starfleet's "tooth to tail" ratio, so I will guess (and I think this is ludicrously conservative, probably by an order of magnitude given historical experience) that they need only about one person manning a fleet base per three people manning ship.

That gives us a round 150 quadrillion beings dedicated to manning and operating this trillion-ISD fleet, NOT counting industrial workers who make the parts to maintain the ships, who are equally vital: you can't maintain a trillion-ISD fleet unless the parts for new ISDs come rolling off the assembly line at a nice steady pace.

Now, let us compare this to the population of the galaxy. There are canonically something on the order of ten million worlds in the Empire. Many of these planets are minor protectorates; others are massively overpopulated ecumenopoli. Assume that the Empire is fielding a military comparable in strength to that seen in powers that enacted full war mobilization during the World Wars: 10 to 15% of the population. Further assume that the Empire does not maintain ANY uniformed personnel other than the minimum required to crew and support those star destroyers: no army garrisons, no fleet of escort units comparable in scale to the destroyer force, no super-heavy battleships, no nothing.

Being fairly liberal about the scale of the Empire's mobilization, it needs a population of ~10^18 to keep that many people in uniform, and that's with a mobilization equivalent to what the US had at the height of World War Two: virtually the entire economy dedicated to the war effort, extensive rationing, the whole works.

From the canon sources I've heard, the Empire has anywhere from a million (low estimate) to fifty million (fairly high estimate) worlds. Using the liberal estimate of fifty million, that means the average Imperial planet must have a population of twenty billion, even given very favorable assumptions about the percentage of this population that can be kept in uniform, and even more favorable assumptions about the percentage of uniformed personnel that can be crewing active warships.

Is twenty billion a reasonable estimate for the average Imperial world's population? Bear in mind that this is well beyond the carrying capacity of a normal Earth-like planet, and a large fraction of inhabited planets we see in Star Wars have environments less favorable than that of Earth.

I submit that:
-An average population of twenty billion is probably too high.
-Even if it is not, a sustained deployment of 15% of the population into the armed forces is almost certainly too high; in real life keeping this up for more than a few years will gut a national economy.
-Even if the 15% deployment rate can be maintained, it is unrealistic to assume that the Empire devotes effectively all its manpower to manning and supporting the star destroyer fleet.
-Even assuming an average population per planet two or three times the carrying capacity of Earth and assuming total-war mobilization levels and assuming all available military manpower goes to the star destroyer fleet... we're still making the wildly unhistoric, extremely favorable assumption that you can maintain a fighting ship with a crew of 30000 using only 10000 base personnel.

Therefore, I conclude that a three-trillion ISD fleet is incompatible with the stated size of the Empire in terms of habitable worlds. Now, if the Empire had, say, a billion worlds, I might be able to believe it. Might.

[Ghost Rider]

Its logic. To make a ship, you need tools, which are made out of metal. Often Durasteel is used in other things besides ships, so a percetage of all metal must be diverted to make and maintain the tools. Add in the civilian demand for it, and that's a fair amount that can't be used by the Imperial navy. Add in the fact that eventually, the exising deposits will run out what will they do then? Will they recycle the hulks of old ships for the metal, or will the become more economical with it's usage?

You made the claim, provide evidence. I won't even go into the several fallacies since it will just distract from the fact that your conjecture is to take your conclusion and provide no data or incorrect data to support this.

[Ghost Rider]

Is twenty billion a reasonable estimate for the average Imperial world's population? Bear in mind that this is well beyond the carrying capacity of a normal Earth-like planet, and a large fraction of inhabited planets we see in Star Wars have environments less favorable than that of Earth.

I submit that:
-An average population of twenty billion is probably too high.
-Even if it is not, a sustained deployment of 15% of the population into the armed forces is almost certainly too high; in real life keeping this up for more than a few years will gut a national economy.
-Even if the 15% deployment rate can be maintained, it is unrealistic to assume that the Empire devotes effectively all its manpower to manning and supporting the star destroyer fleet.
-Even assuming an average population per planet two or three times the carrying capacity of Earth and assuming total-war mobilization levels and assuming all available military manpower goes to the star destroyer fleet... we're still making the wildly unhistoric, extremely favorable assumption that you can maintain a fighting ship with a crew of 30000 using only 10000 base personnel.

Therefore, I conclude that a three-trillion ISD fleet is incompatible with the stated size of the Empire in terms of habitable worlds. Now, if the Empire had, say, a billion worlds, I might be able to believe it. Might.

Why is twenty billion too high?

No, really, given the ability they have demonstrated in cargo hauling of oceans, why is this number too large?

Again, it's the same as Night_Stalker with making a conclusion and providing data that is mostly supposition to support said conclusion. Provide data first, make a conclusion based on the data and then have the disagreements. Conclusion first is poor thinking.

[Norade]

I would assume that given the ability to wage war across the galaxy that waging war through a wormhole located at an arbitrary point wouldn't be much more of an issue. We know they have massive supply ships such as the Super Transport XI that should be able to supply large forces with relative ease.

How many does it take? how much supplies are required? How many ships/crews/etc are needed for this and how long will it take them to execute the campaign? I'm not even going to comment on that in the face of larger ships being mentioned or used, or how the Imperium routinely uses ships that big or bigger as simply landing craft. (40K Military transports get as large as 15 to 60 km, by contrast. Civilian transports can be anywhere from 1 km long to several km long. Such as the Essene from Eisenhorn.)

I've had an inkling of how complex the issue of SW warmaking and logistics is on a large scale because folk like Ender have been working on it for ages. It's gone all over the board and its not neccesarily as simple as "they can build DS = WIN!" There's lots of little details to work out.

Moreover, this isn't "GE vs Feds" - the reason why logistics is sucha minor issue there is because the Feddies are so incredibly overmatched that there's no possible way that it matters. You don't need to work out the logistics for large scale military operations when you only need a fraction of your forces (even without overwhelming firepower advantage) to win a war.

I'm not an expert on logistics, nor am I an expert on the largest transports used by either side, I merely picked the largest ship I knew about as a point of discussion for the GE's transport capabilities. However even from this we can look at a few points, for example the full crew for the Super Transport is 100 men which I'm going to guess if far less than that for an IoM ship of similar size; this of course means that it's easier to crew more ships for the GE than to crew them for the IoM. There is also the fact about speed, I am no expert but if the Lexicanum article on warp travel is correct 1 day in the warp is usually equal to 12 days real time then even if warp travel occurs at the same speed as hyperspace travel then they end up slower by a factor of 12. Thus the smaller ship can supply as much as 12 of the same sized ship making even a large size difference more even.

Granted these are unarmed and considered to be extremely sluggish vessels. However that said these sluggish vessels are still able to move at a speed that is on the upper end of what 40k has been shown to move at.

Proof?

My proof is that if we accept the higher end hyper-drive speeds shown in the movies, and if we agree that they were less than a day in length, it would mean that even moving at an order of magnitude slower than everything shown in the movies a transport that is considered to be slow as ass could go from the edge of the galaxy to the core in ten days or less. Show me where 40k can do that reliably with any warship and show me how 40k is going to drag a ship from hyperspace to interdict them?

You also have to prove that the warp effects ships in hyperspace, it isn't our job to disprove the warps ability to effect this mode of transit.

... since when the fuck did hyperspace become trans dimesnional? Have you forgotten that objects in realspace AFFECT objects in fucking hyperspace? planetS? stars? Black Holes? gravity? Nebulae? Do I really have to point out something that's pointed out on the accompanying website, SWTC, and in the fucking movies themselves?

And do I *really* need to point out that many warp phenomena like warp storms actually extend into real space? I named the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom explicitly for crying out loud.

Seriously, do I have to spell out even this most basic of details??

No, I didn't forget that objects in real space have an effect on hyperspace, nor did I ever say that the warp can't manifest physical effects.

That said is there anything showing that warp storms would effect a ship in hyperspace when the only known things to effect a ship in hyperspace are certain forms of ftl sensor and gravity. The bigger stuff is like any hazard map it and avoid it, and you need to prove that warp lightning effects a ship in hyperspace. The same would go for things like warp currents that are a factor for IoM ships would be a factor for a ship using an entirely different method to travel.

[Simon_Jester]

Why is twenty billion too high?
No, really, given the ability they have demonstrated in cargo hauling of oceans, why is this number too large?

Well, it's not an unreasonable figure for individual planets; Coruscant could easily have ten to a hundred times that many. The reason it's too large on average is that shuffling around the carrying capacity of habitable worlds doesn't improve much on the net capacity. Maybe I can grow enough food to feed ten billion people on a sufficiently fertile planet, and maybe I need only a negligible farming population to do it... but if I ship that food off planet and send it to another planet so they can feed twenty billion, I haven't done anything to the net carrying capacity of my civilization. The average is still the same.

To go beyond that you pretty much have to give up on relying on natural-grown crops for most of your civilization's food supply. And given all the agri-worlds that seem to be kicking around, I really have trouble believing the Republic or the Empire went for that in a big way. Otherwise there wouldn't be enough demand for dirt-farmed food to support the agri-worlds' business.

Again, it's the same as Night_Stalker with making a conclusion and providing data that is mostly supposition to support said conclusion. Provide data first, make a conclusion based on the data and then have the disagreements. Conclusion first is poor thinking.

To be blunt, I'd have agreed with him, because I believe the same thing, and I believe I have evidence. Two independent lines of it, in fact. One I just listed, about aggregate carrying capacity of planets being a practical limit on their growth.

The other is that the Empire doesn't act like a power with trillions of capital ships, not if we accept figures on the order of ten million for the number of planets they rule. We don't see them fielding task forces commensurate with the total strength of the fleet in the movies, you see. Not for a fleet that has orders of magnitude more star destroyers than planets.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

By 40k standards, an AT-AT would be a tough target simply because it's so tough. It's got titan-grade durability, and arguably titan-grade firepower... but I don't see any reason to assume that it's any more dangerous than Imperium titans. Which can easily be countered by 40k superheavy vehicles, and which can be beaten (with great difficulty, risk, and sacrifice) by more ordinary Imperium forces.

Do we have actual figures for this? As far as I have seen, AT-AT's don't fire bolts that induce mini-nuclear explosions, whereas Titans can and have been observed to do so. The claim that a Titan like a Warlord can decimate a city with its firepower isn't without merit, nevermind an Imperator. Titans carry void shields which can resist their own weapons as well.

Moreover, AT-ATs have been seen to be pulverised with only 1-2 proton torpedoes, and the Imperium probably has a close equivalent.

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm. Maybe I'm flat wrong; I could have sworn I saw someone citing kiloton-range figures for AT-ATs on "maximum firepower."

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hmm. Maybe I'm flat wrong; I could have sworn I saw someone citing kiloton-range figures for AT-ATs on "maximum firepower."

Tactically speaking, firing bolts of that firepower is counterproductive on a ground battle. The destruction of the shield generator on Hoth ought to have produce something of shockwave that would have left quite a crater.

[Simon_Jester]

If it's counterproductive for an AT-AT, why isn't it counterproductive for a Titan?

I understand your concern about the mushroom cloud, but we see a lot of that in Star Wars: the special effects never match the high-end figures listed as thoroughly as we'd like.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If it's counterproductive for an AT-AT, why isn't it counterproductive for a Titan?

I understand your concern about the mushroom cloud, but we see a lot of that in Star Wars: the special effects never match the high-end figures listed as thoroughly as we'd like.

Because Titans are meant to level fortifications and cities that require that level of firepower, or to engage heretic Titans.

On the other hand, we see AT-ATs providing some degree of close quarter support etc. (Scout walkers operating in the vicinity of a walking nuclear bomb defies common sense!) In fact, if AT-ATs can deliver that sort of firepower, one even wonders why the Alliance even so much as put up that trench warfare defence perimeter. It defies all logic since one heavy shot would have obliterated it.

[Shroom Man 777]

We don't. Mike's never even gone past hours at most for hyperdrive, the highest being a few hours (ROTS with Anakin's trip to Mustafar). Hell, the Galaxy gun projectiles, which supposedly had a supremely faster hyperdrive (class .75 supposedly, although the NEGW&T says it rivals the Falcon's hyperdrive) and took "hours" to reach the edge of the galaxy from the deep core (EGW&T). As a matter of act, as I've pointed out before, none of the movie speeds neccesarily translate into "standard" speeds at all (as in, all ships in SW travel at roughly similar speeds. That's a gross over-simplification.) Rather its an indication of potential, and we should logically infer that SW ships take hours or days to cross interstellar distances (Depending on make and quality of hyperdrive, travelling conditions, availability of nav data from various sources, whether its a civilian or military ship, etc.) It also doesn't factor in things like hyperdrive range, and what may or may not be incorporated as tradeoffs in design (ISDs for exapmle have a class 2 hyperdrive, whereas VSDs have a class one. And there's the short range of the Venator vs the Acclmaator, for another example.)

A single tiny ship (Obi's) that uses a detachable hyperdrive can fly from the Galactic Core Worlds and reach places like Kamino and Geneosis. Likewise, a gunboat used by a bounty hunter (Jango) can fly across similar distances at similar speeds. Same with Palpatine's boat, when flying to Mustafar.

I'd really love to see the evidence for "minutes".

Hours or even days still put them leagues faster than the IoM.

Moreover, this doesn't address any of the issues I brought up with WRT Hyperdrive in the 40K galaxy, either. I'd love to know how Hyperdrive equipped ships are going to navigate through or around the Eye of Terror, Maelstrom, or any other warp anomaly that litters the 40K galaxy, nevermind anything else I brought up. A really rapid "bomb everything fast" campaign sounds nice but again is ridiculously simplistic (someone mentioned "logistics" but never really went into any depth in that regard other than "speed".)

Then it's good that the IoM's planets generally don't stay in places that are full of warp storms and Terror Eyes, and those places are usually the domain of the Chaos guys, right? Navigation? Simple. Droids. Lots of recon droids. They can scout the IoM's territories, and locate navigation hazards that the GE's fleets should avoid. Viola!

Logistics. Speed. The Galactic Empire can send supply ships to supply its forces while its blitzing across the IoM's territory at a faster rate then the IoM. Faster supply ships, faster troop ships, faster recon ships, faster everything, means that the GE can attack really, really, really fast.

Yeah, it's probably not going to be simple. It'll require shitloads of planning and shitloads of resources. But the Republic has waged a galaxy-spanning war before, against an opponent that has parity in both speed and firepower and range (the CIS). The IoM, on the other hand, has only parity in firepower - and disadvantages in speed and range. So, yeah, I'm going to have to say that the IoM is going to have a really fucking bad time in this one.

And I dont understand why people are jumping to ground warfare without addressing the strategic situation. Tactics come after that, not before.

Ground warfare's not necessary at all.

Shroom Man keeps saying that they could do the same thing that the US did to the Japs in WWII. The problem with this, I see, is that once inside the 40k galaxy, the resources of the only really damaging ships, the SD and SSDs, would run out quickly and would take incredible losses while attempting to do so.

Why? Star Wars resource ships, repair vessels, supply and replenishment craft, also have hyperdrive and can travel around the galaxy at quick speed also.

Remember, most Imperium Escort ships are the same size as a SD, and when the pattern of agri and industry worlds is relized, they'll have a hell of a time trying to make your analogy of American WWII strategic bombing work.

If both vessels can inflict similar/equal levels of damage, but one ship is way more massive than the other (while both ships are similar in damage-dealing capabilities)... then that massive ship is really just going to be a big target. So what if one battleship is "more massive", if a friggin tiny rubber boat is just as powerful as it?

Unless if you think that somehow making a ship bigger automatically means that it's also more powerful. Which isn't always the case.

If three SSD showed up with several hundred SD, the fight would be one sided. If the fleet around the second death star tried to fight a sector fleet, I don't think the Empire would do so well, and the Imperiums superior boarding tactics, SM not IG, would have Empire tech soon falling into the hands of the Imperium.

The fleet around the Second Death Star was a SECRET AMBUSH FLEET that was meant to catch the Rebellion in surprise. Also, the Second Death Star was supposed to have been made IN SECRET! So, DUH, the Second Death Star would've had only a tiny number of forces on hand.

Heh. If the Galactic Empire mobilized itself to Clone Wars levels, then? What if a singe battle would've involved shitloads of ISDs like how the Battle of Coruscant had shitloads of warships then? If this is going to be a galactic war, then the Empire WILL mobilize to the appropriate levels. The Empire won't be treating the IoM like a bunch of tiny scampering shit-eating rebels with the Son of Skywalker who Emperor Palpatine has an unhealthy and possibly sexual obsession over. Hell no. The Empire's gonna treat the IoM like a galactic-sized adversary and the gloves are going to come off, and the Empire'll treat the IoM like how the Republic treated the CIS.

Except unlike the CIS, the IoM WON'T be able to match the Empire in speed or galaxy-wide range!

A likely scenario I think, would be the Empire sending in a large fleet of a dozen or so SSDs followed by at least a hundred or more SD to wipe out a segmentum fleet. Probably taking heavy losses, heavier if a SM strike fleet is present, and doing so to deliberately take out the Navel power of the Imperium.

Why? Are SM ships that superior to standard IoM vessels? Or are you wanking off to Space Marine boarding sessions? What makes you think the Galactic Empire can't use fighters to down Space Marine boarding ships? The Space Marine teleporters might not even work on Galactic Empire vessels, and if that's the case then that neuters a very effective Space Marine tactic.

Small fleets would still exist, and the ability to land forces on worlds would not be completely culled, though extremely dangerous for the Transport ships.

Those small fleets won't be everwhere. Again, I must stress how the Galactic Empire can attack any target in the galaxy at almost any time it pleases. It doesn't even NEED to attack IoM fleet concentrations. If the IoM concentrates all its ships on a few core worlds like Cadia, Armageddon, Terra, Ultramar or whatever, then the Galactic Empire will decide to ignore these worlds and choose to FUCK undefended agriworlds and industriworlds. This tactic will STARVE those IoM core worlds, if those worlds need food shipments from agriworlds... and don't hiveworlds NEED shitloads of supplies? This will force the IoM to deploy its fleets to defend the many outer agriworlds and industriworlds, forcing them to dillute and disperse the concentration of their forces. These forces will also take days or weeks to reach their destination. While the Galactic Empire can attack, retreat, attack again, regroup, choose new targets, attack old targets again, or go somewhere safe to resupply, re-arm and repair, and whatever at VERY FAST SPEEDS and they can do this ANYWHERE in the galaxy.

I don't think bringing up either of the two death stars is a good idea, seeing as how the rebelion took both out, and the Imperium could easily bring ten times as much to bare on those targets.

The Death Star and Death Star 2 have hyperdrives. The Imperium could SLOWLY bring ten times as much to bare on those targets in, like, after weeks or months of warp travel.

The Rebellion took the Death Star 2 out because it was UNFINISHED and the Endor shield was compromised. Otherwise, when the Endor shield wasn't compromised, not even fighters or X-wings could penetrate the shield (UNLIKE the first Death Star). A completed Death Star 2 would be far more formidable than the first DS, it would be able to kill more planets faster because it can shoot faster, AND I think its shields would've been hull-hugging or at least fighter-proof.

I think hyperdrive would see common use in Imperium ships given two or three years after the capture of one.

HA-HA-HA! Why? Because the AdMech'll pour some incense and read some prayers, and VIOLA, th Imperium's magically reverse-engineered technology that's beyond their capabilities? Hah!

I don't think hyperdrive would see common use in Imperium ships given two or three CENTURIES after the capture of one. The Imperium has captured many alien technologies before, from the Eldar, from the Tau, from whoever. Has the Imperium been able to reverse engineer many of these after two to three years after the capture of one?

And you beileve that the rebels have superior intel gathering forces to the Imperium? Also, even though the second death star was only half finished, it was still destroyed by the rebels, who used a small task force of infantry to destroy the shield that was on a moon. I don't get why the Imperium couldn't destroy the moon, and then do the exact same thing as the rebels did.

Yes? I think the rebels have superior intel gathering forces to the Imperium. Because... they live in the same galaxy as the Galactic Empire, and are an insurgency that developed from WITHIN the Empire itself? Because, shit, key members of the Rebellion are even also key members of the Galactic Senate?

The Imperium couldn't destroy the moon because Palpatine GAVE THE REBELS THE LOCATION OF THE MOON as part of his stupid plan to catch the Rebels because of his deranged sexual obsession with Luke Skywalker. Unless the IoM has some sexy nubile young succulent farmboy son of a Sith out there that catches the senile sexual attention of Palpatine, thus causing Palpatine to risk his own safety (and the safety of his unfinished giant balls/Death Stars) to try and secude said succulent farmboy... you get my picture.

What happens then, when the Death Star 2 is completed and comes with a fully functional shield inside it (and not on a dumb moon), that has none of the weaknesses of the first Death Star?

Questionable. The warp, in its extreme manifestations, affects normal space. We know that objects in normal space affect hyperspace; otherwise you wouldn't be able to "bounce too close to a supernova." It seems perfectly reasonable that strong warp phenomena will distort hyperspace to at least a limited extent, enough that they have to be taken into account for navigation.

Then thank the God-Emperor that the vast majority of IoM worlds are a safe distance away from warp uglinesses that are usually inhabited by the forces of Chaos, rite? Now, if the Galactic Empire was waging war against Chaotic forces that actually LIVE on those crazy-warp places, then this might be an issue...

Space Marines in multiple-company strength could very probably capture an SD; taking an SSD would require a full chapter or more simply because the ship is so damn big: 100 Space Marines aren't going to beat 10000 stormtroopers. The catch is that the battle barge is too slow and clumsy to do a good job of boarding Imperial ships, and teleporting Marines aboard probably won't work.

Exactly. ANd transporting a company of Marines will require either a miracle of teleportation through SW countermeasures, OR a big ship tht can fit all those troops, or a whole bunch of smaller boarding ships.

And the ISD is NOT going to sit and wait for the Marines to penetrate its ass and insert themselves in after applying lubricant on their sanctified Space Marine armor and sliding inside in one smooth thrust...

This is not strictly correct. AT-AT main guns are far more powerful than anything an AT-ST carries.

By 40k standards, an AT-AT would be a tough target simply because it's so tough. It's got titan-grade durability, and arguably titan-grade firepower... but I don't see any reason to assume that it's any more dangerous than Imperium titans. Which can easily be countered by 40k superheavy vehicles, and which can be beaten (with great difficulty, risk, and sacrifice) by more ordinary Imperium forces.

No. Fuck the AT-AT. IF the Empire uses AT-AT for its ground forces, it gets fucked and Star Wars loses horribly because AT-ATs are shit. They're NOT All-Terrain because they're mechas and mechas are stupid. They're NOT Armored Transports because they're shit at that and require the stupid mecha to either kneel down like as if its getting assfucked, or to use ropes and cables, to disgorge its troops. It should be called the Fugly All-Terrain Fugly Armored Transport instead. The FAT-FAT.

If the Empire uses FAT-FATs, then fucking serfs and uneducated peasants in the Imperium could just trip it with some fucking rope or something. Or a Squiggoth mistakes a FAT-FAT for a female and decides to hump it in its ass. Because all the FAT-FAT's guns are located on its head, and because it can't turn around fast enough, it can't defend itself from the Squiggoth as it sticks its cock in and spews fungal Orkoid semen on all the crewmembers inside the vehicle.

Jesus.

You're overestimating the strength of the Imperium's defenses. Their ships don't have the power to weight ratio of the Empire; an SD-sized Imperium ship is not as powerful as a star destroyer.

Yes.

The Imperium's high level of dispersed defenses is going to be a major factor, though; the Empire can't count on bloodless victories at each individual target.

Because they can travel very quickly to almost any point in the galaxy, the Galactic Empire can concentrate forces very quickly on any single target. The IoM's dispersed defenses might actually be a bad thing if it DILUTES the IoM's force concentrations. Because if the GE chooses to attack with many ships, and the IoM has only a few ships in Sector X then it will take the IoM days or weeks to reinforce Sector X with more ships. Whereas the GE can reinforce its attacks with ANY vessel operating in the galaxy.

It won't be bloodless. But the Empire's ships can attack any individual target in the galaxy, they can do so faster and they can bring more ships faster because any Empire ship in the galaxy has the range to enter that warzone. Whereas

There's a good analogy here to the WWII strategic bombing campaigns. You can paralyze a country by strategic bombing, yes... but if you're losing even a few percent of your bombers on each sortie, the cost and difficulty of prosecuting the campaign goes through the roof.

The Republic waged a galatic war against the CIS, and the CIS not only had firepower parity but also speed and range parity to engage the Republic on equal footing in combat theaters all over the galaxy. The Empire has more resources than the Republic or the CIS.

So, I believe the Galactic Empire is game for this.

But, seriously.

Fuck the AT-AT. Fucking mechas.

[Stark]

Are Imperium logistics ships well-armed? Because given the factory-world thing all a faster adversary has to do is wolf pack the shit out of their industrial areas to prevent anything getting to the 'front line' (which is wherever the GE decides to attack today). If the IoM try to defend, the packs just go elsewhere and the IoM just wasted ships.

And seriously, the lol of SM boarding GE ships and getting killed in the self-destruct and the IoM running out of Space Marines in the first day is huge.

'HAIL THE EMPEROR we captured fully a dozen of their war vessels'

'Where are they?'

'Erm, they blew up'

'Where are our elite Terminator boarding teams, nigh irreplacable heroes of unstoppable CQB might?'

'Well, they blew up too. Sorry.'

[Vympel]

As far as high end examples from the films are concerned, I've noted before that Palpatine's trip from Coruscant to Mustafar couldn't have taken more than say 30 minutes, and even that's questionable - the RotS novel indicates Palpatine had arrived even before Obi-Wan had left the planet. If you watch when Palpatine calls for his shuttle (whilst the duel on Mustafar is still going) its pretty obvious there's no way it could've taken very long.

Obi-Wan's fleet from Coruscant to Utapau is similarly fast, unless people think it took hours and hours for Obi-Wan to find a freaking Boga.

[Shroom Man 777]

STRAK STRAK STRAK!

Seriously though, man. Bloody Chaplain's OP is right. The Galactic Empire WILL resort to guerilla warfare. Except this time, the guerillas can attack you from EVERYWHERE at ANYTIME and they're totally fucking faster than you, number just as many as you, AND they have guns that are as big as yours. Or maybe even bigger than yours!

Wait. Is that still even called guerilla warfare?

[Rama]

Any ideas as to how long Obi-Wan was imprisoned on Geonosis? Because the fact that Yoda received his message, traveled 70,000 light years to Kakmino, then a further 20,000 or so light years to Geonosis with an Army of 200,000 Clones and a strike group of a dozen warships in tow seem to suggest an incredible level of mobilization in a short period of time.

[Simon_Jester]

STRAK STRAK STRAK!

Seriously though, man. Bloody Chaplain's OP is right. The Galactic Empire WILL resort to guerilla warfare. Except this time, the guerillas can attack you from EVERYWHERE at ANYTIME and they're totally fucking faster than you, number just as many as you, AND they have guns that are as big as yours. Or maybe even bigger than yours!

Wait. Is that still even called guerilla warfare?

...I think it's gorilla warfare now.

Because Titans are meant to level fortifications and cities that require that level of firepower, or to engage heretic Titans.

On the other hand, we see AT-ATs providing some degree of close quarter support etc. (Scout walkers operating in the vicinity of a walking nuclear bomb defies common sense!) In fact, if AT-ATs can deliver that sort of firepower, one even wonders why the Alliance even so much as put up that trench warfare defence perimeter. It defies all logic since one heavy shot would have obliterated it.

Well, there's the ever-popular "variable weapon settings" to explain that. As for the other, the Rebels don't seem to have really understood exactly what AT-ATs were capable of in the areas of firepower and toughness. I'm pretty sure they were expecting an attack by something a bit more human-sized, like AT-STs.

I mean, it's not as if we don't see mechanized (or for that matter straight leg) infantry fighting alongside Titans in 40k; they have to keep a fairly safe distance but they do it.

A single tiny ship (Obi's) that uses a detachable hyperdrive can fly from the Galactic Core Worlds and reach places like Kamino and Geneosis. Likewise, a gunboat used by a bounty hunter (Jango) can fly across similar distances at similar speeds. Same with Palpatine's boat, when flying to Mustafar.

I don't think we should assume that these tiny ships owned by high-level government officials, the Jedi Order, and the best damn bounty hunter in the galaxy are representative of what the average ship is capable of. And yes, I know, your natural reply is still "well who cares? Even if normal ships are slower than that they're still faster than warp travel." Yes. They are. That doesn't make the difference between a minute and an hour go away or not matter.

(If nothing else, there are other versus debates).

Ground warfare's not necessary at all.

Assuming, of course, that the objective is pure strategic destruction. And that Grand Moff Shep is running the campaign.

I know you've already agreed to this; I just want to underline that it isn't the only viable military strategy here- again, it would be way cheaper to just ignore the fuck out of the Imperium and possibly point a shitload of turbolasers down any wormholes that might act as invasion corridors. The Imperium will get crushed by its own enemies soon enough in any case.

Why? Are SM ships that superior to standard IoM vessels? Or are you wanking off to Space Marine boarding sessions? What makes you think the Galactic Empire can't use fighters to down Space Marine boarding ships? The Space Marine teleporters might not even work on Galactic Empire vessels, and if that's the case then that neuters a very effective Space Marine tactic.

Eh. I'd expect them to work as well as they do against comparably shielded ships in 40k. We don't have that canonical "cannot penetrate shields ever except when the plot demands it" thing going like we do in Star Trek, do we?

The Rebellion took the Death Star 2 out because it was UNFINISHED and the Endor shield was compromised. Otherwise, when the Endor shield wasn't compromised, not even fighters or X-wings could penetrate the shield (UNLIKE the first Death Star). A completed Death Star 2 would be far more formidable than the first DS, it would be able to kill more planets faster because it can shoot faster, AND I think its shields would've been hull-hugging or at least fighter-proof.

Citation requested.

Then thank the God-Emperor that the vast majority of IoM worlds are a safe distance away from warp uglinesses that are usually inhabited by the forces of Chaos, rite? Now, if the Galactic Empire was waging war against Chaotic forces that actually LIVE on those crazy-warp places, then this might be an issue...

Thing is, navigation in Imperium space often has to take warp-ugly zones into account, and ignoring them is a good way to get eaten by demons in mid-trip. This suggests that it is not trivially easy to plot safe courses through the 40k galaxy without running into warp-infested space: a lot of evasive routing is called for.

Exactly. ANd transporting a company of Marines will require either a miracle of teleportation through SW countermeasures, OR a big ship tht can fit all those troops, or a whole bunch of smaller boarding ships.

Well, there are precedents. For Imperium ships, if you can ram you can board, and, well...
"Sir! We've lost our bridge deflector shield!"
"Intensify forward firepower!"
[big metal teardrop comes hurtling toward bridge]
"INTENSIFY FORWARD FIREPOWER!"
[big metal teardrop crashes into bridge]
[bunch of Space Marines charge out]

I mean, it's not going to happen often, but it's going to happen once in a while. That's really what I'm getting at: the Imperium has huge strategic disadvantages against the Empire, but the power levels are close enough that the Empire has to fight very, very smart to win without taking heavy losses. And they can't help but take light losses. This going to be a war, not an exercise in pest control.

Because they can travel very quickly to almost any point in the galaxy, the Galactic Empire can concentrate forces very quickly on any single target. The IoM's dispersed defenses might actually be a bad thing if it DILUTES the IoM's force concentrations. Because if the GE chooses to attack with many ships, and the IoM has only a few ships in Sector X then it will take the IoM days or weeks to reinforce Sector X with more ships. Whereas the GE can reinforce its attacks with ANY vessel operating in the galaxy.

Shroomy, you can officially assume that I understand what "hit and run" "strategic mobility" and so on mean, OK? You don't need to keep repeating yourself.

The Empire is free to concentrate extremely large forces and hit extremely weak targets. It can probably avoid losing much if it does, but it will be winning only very, very slowly because it is not hitting many of those weak targets at a time. The temptation to divide their forces will be very strong, and they will have to resist that or start taking heavier losses.

Moreover, they can't win just by hitting purely defenseless worlds. Remember that even a lot of relatively weak planets manage to survive a prolonged attack before Imperium reinforcements arrive; that implies at least minimal defenses that could very plausibly inflict casualties on the attacking force. Not heavy casualties... but then, flak never downed all that many WWII bombers in one sortie, either.

I know what the plan is. My point is that breezily dismissing everything that could go wrong with the plan because STRATEGIC MOBILITY is taking things too far.

[Vympel]

Citation requested.

About what? That the Death Star 2 was both more powerful and capable of firing more often than the original isn't a controversial fact. We don't know about the strength of its shields or whether they're permeable by fighters, but consider that the shields of the DS1 repelled the debris of Alderaan, and in the novel Death Star the shields are explicitly described as bouncing debris the size of mountains from the destruction of Despayre.

Not that it really matters - even if fighters could get through they'd accomplish fuck all, since the completed DS2 doesn't have a vulnerable spot (if we assumed the Imperium had weapons to exploit it).

Frankly I don't see why the DS or DS2 couldn't just blow up Terra first chance it gets and watch the Imperium wither and die on the vine without the Astronomicon. Its not like it could actually be stopped from doing so.

[Serafina]

Citation requested.

Frankly I don't see why the DS or DS2 couldn't just blow up Terra first chance it gets and watch the Imperium wither and die on the vine without the Astronomicon. Its not like it could actually be stopped from doing so.

By the Imperium?
No, their chances of stopping it are nearly zero, barring unknon Dark Age technology or intervention by the Emperor (essentially both plot-deus ex machina, so no real point here).

Of course, such actions would most likely provoke intervention by the Eldar and Necrons, which propably could stop any of the Death Stars (Blackstone Fortesses, destrucion of Stars and other feats).

Anyway, the true problem with this strategy is that you do not know about this vulnerability. Not many people know what the Astronomican is, and the higher echelons that do know are likely to keep their mouths shut (even Darth Vader could not get the location of the Rebel base out of Leia, so their interrogation techniques are not so good that you can rely on that).
Furthermore, you do not even know what to look for, so you can't even question directly for that information.
Perhaps you can puzzle it togheter with conjecture after a while, but even that seems questionable.

You could argue that they would go afer Terra anyway - but i fail to see the strategic reason to do so. Indeed, it would not decapitate the Imperial goverment (since most areas are governed independently) and even effects on morale would take months or years to spread.

Furthermore, is still see no reason why the GE would go after an all-out war against the whole IoM. If they just want to counqer some planets, they are way better off with just conquering them in a local region. While that will provoke the surrounding systems, you won't stand up against the whole IoM.


Anyway, here is a severe risk for those who want to use speed to keep their whole force concentrated on a single planet/system at a time:
Warp Storms
If a warp storm hits the system while your fleet is there, it is effectively lost.
Now, natural warpstorms are much to rare for that to pose a credible danger - but they can be caused by other means.
Arguably, the IoM has the means to do so, but only radical Inquistitors would be willing to do that. Yet, if the gain is so enormous, that might just happen - and discerning the locatuion of such a strike can be done by mundane means by evaluating what one of your targets will be, nevermind supernatural abilities or the Emperors Tarot.
But even if it is not done by an Inquisitor, both Chaos-cults and the Emperor himself could do it.
While direct intervention by the Emperor is rare, he has done just this at least once before (Storm of the Emperors Wrath during the Age of Apostasy).
However, a chaos-caused warp storm is the most likely reason for this to happen. Not only does it suit their abilities, but they also have a lot to gain from it - after all, the trapped fleet is not very vulnerable to warp corruption, potentially giving chaos a large and powerfull fleet and army.

This might be a shaky strategy, but it is certainly a possible downfall if your fleet is always kept highly concentrated.

[Rye]

Citation requested.

About what? That the Death Star 2 was both more powerful and capable of firing more often than the original isn't a controversial fact. We don't know about the strength of its shields or whether they're permeable by fighters, but consider that the shields of the DS1 repelled the debris of Alderaan, and in the novel Death Star the shields are explicitly described as bouncing debris the size of mountains from the destruction of Despayre.

Not that it really matters - even if fighters could get through they'd accomplish fuck all, since the completed DS2 doesn't have a vulnerable spot (if we assumed the Imperium had weapons to exploit it).

Frankly I don't see why the DS or DS2 couldn't just blow up Terra first chance it gets and watch the Imperium wither and die on the vine without the Astronomicon. Its not like it could actually be stopped from doing so.

In principle I'd agree with this. The only wildcards in that scenario are a) the Emperor, who is obviously on Terra and presumably doesn't want to be destroyed, and apparently can freeze time, control people and create warp storms and such, and b) if it goes for Mars first, there's a sleeping C'tan it'll presumably wake up. My guess is that there'd also be necrons and presumably farseeing Eldar that wouldn't want Terra/the Emperor to fall (or Chaos rapes everyone) and would attempt to intervene accordingly.

[Simon_Jester]

About what? That the Death Star 2 was both more powerful and capable of firing more often than the original isn't a controversial fact. We don't know about the strength of its shields or whether they're permeable by fighters, but consider that the shields of the DS1 repelled the debris of Alderaan, and in the novel Death Star the shields are explicitly described as bouncing debris the size of mountains from the destruction of Despayre.

Citation requested specifically, exclusively, for the claim that the DS2 shields would have been fighter-proof. Purely because I'd never heard that said and was wondering about Shroomy's source, and for no other reason.