Changes (Dresden Spoilers)

[Keevan_Colton]

So, I just finished reading the novel. Who else here has got it and what's their thoughts on the ending? Who do you think the shooter was? What do you think is going on? Where is it going next? And what's with the rumbling train thing?

[Gaidin]

Harry just destroyed the Reds. I'd say the other Vampire Courts have great reason to be nervous around him now. I don't think Thomas had anything to do with it, but Lara has a great ability for knowing what her brother does. My biggest suspicion is on her arranging something. That's the only legitimate nameable suspicion I have. It could just be the same "group" that have pulled off random hits(drive bys mostly) on him but failed throughout the series and this one for all intents and purposes succeeded. Would've ended any novel no matter where the story, given the book's PoV.

As for the rumbling train thing. Best I can come up with for a theory is the Faerie are helping him(moving him) and he's just delirious from blood loss, hypothermia, and/or drowning and answering his own questions.

[Coop D'etat]

My money is on it all being part of an elaborate conjob by Vadderung to exploit somekind of "falling in battle" loophole to snatch Harry out of Mab's clutches.

[Moby Halcyon]

There were a couple other questions unanswered by book's end. Unless I missed something, no one ever worked out why Susan was ordering a hit on Harry or who the imposter was that impersonated her. Moreover, I did notice that during the battle against the Reds, Harry notes someone else was running around yelling "Fuego!". Which, as far as I'm concerned, means one story sometime in the future, will involve time travel.

I liked the book, with the sample tour of every single Dresden verse character, from Odin to the Erlking, but it really shined in the end. Harry boiling the Red King's noggin was great, as was Murphy finally going around and one-hit-comboing one of the Lord of Outer Night.

But goddamn, Mouse talking was hilarious. Best part of the book.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Started it this afternoon, just finished it.
Pretty good, and a serious shakeup of the series. (I did not expect Harry to actually take advantage of any of his potential "power ups").

Agreed on too many points being unanswered, let alone the surprise ending!

[Gaidin]

http://www.popsyndicate.com/site/story/ ... s_fantasy/

The interview regarding Changes. The part that really got me:

You’ve said that you don’t think you could pull off a bigger stunt than Sue, but your narrative intensity has, in my opinion, grown with each book. Changes was the first Dresden File to make me cry and think ‘I don’t know how Harry can survive this’. Do you worry about outdoing yourself?

No, no, we’re on track. I was really excited to get to Changes because now we get to the fun stuff. I’ve had a plan for the story since I wrote the first one; I outlined the series as part of a class project. We’re a couple of books behind where I wanted, but that’s okay; I don’t think anybody is going to scream if I have to do 22 books instead of 20. But I know where we’re going and I know where it’s going to end up. I want to tell the story until it’s done and then it’ll be done. I don’t want to change anything from what I originally set out to accomplish.

So uhh...how exactly does he rate Sue and Dead Beat if now we're finally in the fun stuff. And if that stands, just what the hell does he have planned.

[Autokrat]

The thing that surprised me most about Changes is how far Harry went. In this book he went to places I never thought he would go and I feel it makes for an excellent showcase of just how dire his situation is.

The entire series he has been reinforced as being essentially incorruptible and then now, all of that has flown out the window. Oh, I'm not saying that he's been necessarily corrupted, but that the lines he used to have have changed dramatically and I I really felt for him in Changes. You know that he didn't want to do it: Spoiler

Mab

and it was a tragic, but well done (and I dare say, necessary considering the alternatives Harry had) example of how far Harry is willing to go if the motivation is strong enough.

Murphy was great too; her utterly awesome moment at the end was well deserved, especially considering the shit her career has taken from this. I think that it highlights just how strong the Platonic bond between Harry and Murphy really is. Her shield was her life.

And, I don't know about anything else, but for some reason I felt that Harry's crazy Godmother was hilariously awesome in a completely twisted way.

[Gaidin]

Mouse gets the MVP though. For all the heavy hitting Murphy and Harry did, nothing would've happened without Mouse. And oh dear god the conversation between Lea and Mouse. AWESOME.

[Coop D'etat]

The thing that surprised me most about Changes is how far Harry went. In this book he went to places I never thought he would go and I feel it makes for an excellent showcase of just how dire his situation is.

The entire series he has been reinforced as being essentially incorruptible and then now, all of that has flown out the window. Oh, I'm not saying that he's been necessarily corrupted, but that the lines he used to have have changed dramatically and I I really felt for him in Changes. You know that he didn't want to do it: Spoiler

Mab

and it was a tragic, but well done (and I dare say, necessary considering the alternatives Harry had) example of how far Harry is willing to go if the motivation is strong enough.

I slightly disagree with your assessment, Harry has never been presented as incorruptible. He's made deals with Lea (before the series) Marcone and Lash among others who he considered evil, not to mention dabled in necromancy when the situation demanded. What the series constantly reinforces is that Harry will almost pathologically put himself in harms way to protect others (especially woman and children) and if he has no other option he will abandon principles to do so. In that sense the deal he made was entirely keeping with the character.

What impressed me about the book was how bold the author was. "Changes" at its heart is a story about a man who Spoiler

murders a blind guy as part of a pact with the Queen of Air and Darkness for power and follows up by killing the mother of his child in order to activate a death magic spell which results in total genocide.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have our hero. Also Butcher by Spoiler

torching Harry's apartment, office and car not to mention getting Murphy fired

does alot to irreverisbly change the Dresden's life to the point that the old Dresden Files formula which had been successful to this point probably cannot be returned to. I think it'll be good to shake things up and move the plot forward before things get stale, but you have to admit it takes some cahonnes to make these kinds of changes so fast to a successful franchise.

[Autokrat]

The thing that surprised me most about Changes is how far Harry went. In this book he went to places I never thought he would go and I feel it makes for an excellent showcase of just how dire his situation is.

The entire series he has been reinforced as being essentially incorruptible and then now, all of that has flown out the window. Oh, I'm not saying that he's been necessarily corrupted, but that the lines he used to have have changed dramatically and I I really felt for him in Changes. You know that he didn't want to do it: Spoiler

Mab

and it was a tragic, but well done (and I dare say, necessary considering the alternatives Harry had) example of how far Harry is willing to go if the motivation is strong enough.

I slightly disagree with your assessment, Harry has never been presented as incorruptible. He's made deals with Lea (before the series) Marcone and Lash among others who he considered evil, not to mention dabled in necromancy when the situation demanded. What the series constantly reinforces is that Harry will almost pathologically put himself in harms way to protect others (especially woman and children) and if he has no other option he will abandon principles to do so. In that sense the deal he made was entirely keeping with the character.

What impressed me about the book was how bold the author was. "Changes" at its heart is a story about a man who Spoiler

murders a blind guy as part of a pact with the Queen of Air and Darkness for power and follows up by killing the mother of his child in order to activate a death magic spell which results in total genocide.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have our hero. Also Butcher by Spoiler

torching Harry's apartment, office and car not to mention getting Murphy fired

does alot to irreverisbly change the Dresden's life to the point that the old Dresden Files formula which had been successful to this point probably cannot be returned to. I think it'll be good to shake things up and move the plot forward before things get stale, but you have to admit it takes some cahonnes to make these kinds of changes so fast to a successful franchise.

To be honest I didn't look at it from that viewpoint before. I suppose I was so shocked by Harry's decision, one I wasn't sure he would carry through.

And I agree, a lot has changed, especially the formula. We've gone from hard boiled detective with a fairly similar theme from book to book, to global shaking events.

One thing that caught my eye was the firestorm of Latin American revolutions mentioned at the end due to the death of the Red Court. Butcher mentioned that he's planning an Apocalyptic Trilogy at the end and political destabilization seems to be a natural element of something on that scale. Combine political ramifications with some new plot from the Denarians and maybe something from the BC and suddenly it all starts to look like a giant explosion waiting to happen.

[Gaidin]

This one is totally new ground for Harry in the sense that for all the times he's broken his morals perse, he's never broken the Law(loopholed in his view, yes; broken, not so much). Spoiler

He pretty much manipulated a human Susan right into that.

He's also not done those extreme acts just to win a war before. He's only ever done those acts to protect someone he was directly involved with, even if only on the basis of that current case.

[Coop D'etat]

This one is totally new ground for Harry in the sense that for all the times he's broken his morals perse, he's never broken the Law(loopholed in his view, yes; broken, not so much). Spoiler

He pretty much manipulated a human Susan right into that.

He's also not done those extreme acts just to win a war before. He's only ever done those acts to protect someone he was directly involved with, even if only on the basis of that current case.

I totally agree that this broke new ground in showing how far Harry can go, but its merely a matter of degree than a fundamental break. I think the Lash situation foreshadows what happened in Changes quite well in that sense. Also, how much of what happened to Susan was to win the war and how much to save Maggie?

[Gaidin]

I totally agree that this broke new ground in showing how far Harry can go, but its merely a matter of degree than a fundamental break. I think the Lash situation foreshadows what happened in Changes quite well in that sense. Also, how much of what happened to Susan was to win the war and how much to save Maggie?

At that point it was probably a heavy bit of both. If he didn't kill the Red King he knew Maggie was going to die. He couldn't kill the Red King directly, but the Red King was kind enough to set up this outrageously huge bloodline curse. Harry needed the newest vampire, so he provoked Susan.

Also, amusingly enough, does anybody remember the conversation with Mavra at the end of Dead Beat?

"You try to get to me through other mortals again and I'll kill you."
...
"I've got a fallen angel tripping all over herself to give me more power. Queen Mab has asked me to take the mantle of Winter Knight twice now. I've read Kemmler's book. I know how the Darkhallow works."
...
"So once again, let me be perfectly clear. If anything happens to Murphy and I even _think_ you had a hand in it, fuck right and wrong. If you touch her, I'm declaring war on you. Personally. I'm picking up every weapon I can get. And I'm using them to kill you. Horribly."

Me thinks that Arianna could've been helped a lot by having a constant scrying spell set up for Harry since her vendetta started. It also fits with Susan in the end. Even if he feels horrible about it. Fuck right and wrong.

[SCRawl]

There were a couple other questions unanswered by book's end. Unless I missed something, no one ever worked out why Susan was ordering a hit on Harry or who the imposter was that impersonated her.

I'm glad I didn't just miss that. It was a plot point that should, at least, have been mentioned again. "Uh, Susan, I'm just asking here, but did you order a hit on me at the church?"

Moreover, I did notice that during the battle against the Reds, Harry notes someone else was running around yelling "Fuego!". Which, as far as I'm concerned, means one story sometime in the future, will involve time travel.

I think it's far more likely that some other wizard among the dozen who joined the party also uses Spanish as his vocalization language. But yes, I suppose your theory is possible.

[Coop D'etat]

Moreover, I did notice that during the battle against the Reds, Harry notes someone else was running around yelling "Fuego!". Which, as far as I'm concerned, means one story sometime in the future, will involve time travel.

I think it's far more likely that some other wizard among the dozen who joined the party also uses Spanish as his vocalization language. But yes, I suppose your theory is possible.[/quote]

There's a much simpler explaination for that, fuego means fire, as in shoot, in Spanish and there was a whole bunch of latin american mercenaries running around at the final battle (well, until Ebenezeer did his thing).

[Gaidin]

I'm glad I didn't just miss that. It was a plot point that should, at least, have been mentioned again. "Uh, Susan, I'm just asking here, but did you order a hit on me at the church?"

I think he wrote it off as another vampire screwing with the way they look.

[SCRawl]

There's a much simpler explaination for that, fuego means fire, as in shoot, in Spanish and there was a whole bunch of latin american mercenaries running around at the final battle (well, until Ebenezeer did his thing).

Yeah, that makes more sense.

I'm glad I didn't just miss that. It was a plot point that should, at least, have been mentioned again. "Uh, Susan, I'm just asking here, but did you order a hit on me at the church?"

I think he wrote it off as another vampire screwing with the way they look.

That's how he rationalized it, yeah, but he never confirmed his suspicions. I thought that it deserved at least another mention.

[Gaidin]

That's how he rationalized it, yeah, but he never confirmed his suspicions. I thought that it deserved at least another mention.

Well that's all he needed to have himself shove it way to the side especially given Susan was locked up. It wouldn't take much for Harry, and since it is first person, that's pretty much all we'd get.

[LadyTevar]

I Blame you all for this.

me:stepping inside BookStore "Hi! Tell me, do you have the new Dresden novel?"
Employee: Umm... whose novel?
Me: Dresden... The new Jim Butcher, called Changes?
Employee: OH! yes, it's right over there by the...
me: MINE!! RING ME UP!!!

[Autokrat]

I Blame you all for this.

me:stepping inside BookStore "Hi! Tell me, do you have the new Dresden novel?"
Employee: Umm... whose novel?
Me: Dresden... The new Jim Butcher, called Changes?
Employee: OH! yes, it's right over there by the...
me: MINE!! RING ME UP!!!

I pre-ordered it a month a and a half or so before it came out. Then when it arrived, I ran like mad to the campus post office and I finished it in three and a half hours. One year of agonizingly waiting for three and a half ours of the best drug ever and now I'm going to be doing it again.

Another ten times if the twenty-two number is accurate.

[SylasGaunt]

Finished it yesterday.

I cannot fucking believe I have to wait until November to get even a peek at what comes next. Damn you Butcher!

On the other hand, lots of cool stuff going on, and of course the full revelation of Miss Gard's employer as we get to say hello to fucking ODIN!

Ack, now I'm remembering that bit from "Heorot" where Gard mentions he likes them to call him 'daddy'...

On a related note though I just pre-ordered both Dresden Files RPG books and got my early version PDFs. Lots of funny liner notes written 'in universe'.

[Enforcer Talen]

So yeah, I was checking every place I could think of every 20 minutes to see if they had it. Finally got it, read it in one day. Fantastic stuff; I loved the part where Dresden compares himself to gollum. Hes really questioning his voluntary damnation.

[Sheridan]

Got it today and read it through in about four or five hours. Damned good.

I've got a theory on the shooter, though.
Spoiler

Remember in Small Favor, when Fix says that he'd have to take every advantage possible if Harry were ever to become Winter Knight? Well, it's entirely possible that he's capable of killing Dresden in cold blood like that; Fix may very well have learned of the Water Beetle due to the doughnut incident and managed to figure out that that's one of the spots to watch for Harry.

Also, I like the idea of Odin using the "fallen hero" bit as a way to get Harry out of his deal with Mab. If he's farsighted enough (and, remember, we're talking about a semi-retired GOD here), it's even entirely possible that he'd leak the site of Harry's hidey-hole even if Fix couldn't figure it out on his own.

Just a thought.


Now, something that bothers me more than the odd hit out was the conversation between Lea and Mouse.

"The Leansidhe shook her head slowly. Then she said, 'How did Dresden ever win you?'

'He didn't,' Mouse said, 'I won him.'" (Emphasis mine.)

Does this mean that Mouse is part of the seeming Conspiracy to Make Dresden Fulfill His Destiny(tm)? I mean, given the hints dropped in several places (e.g.: Harry's seeming power over Outsiders, first revealed by Bob; Shiro's trust with the Sword[s, now]; and a couple of other things), it would seem that Harry's birth, bloodline, upbringing, and continuing encounters with powerful beings point to several factions warring over his destiny.

Just another thought.

[Majin Gojira]

I just plowed through it in about 7 hours.

Has anyone actually taken their time reading it, or were we all so enthralled that we just couldn't stop?

[Axiomatic]

"My name is Maggie Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. Five years ago, someone gunned down the father I never knew. I'm going to find out who..."

Hey, the series is called the Dresden files. Nobody ever called it the Harry Dresden files, did they?